EDIT: I flubbed Battiata's name little ways down in the post. Nothing deflates your point like misspelling the name of the person you're going after. I try guys. But I'm human. Sloppy, but human.
This is why Obama's Father's Day speech leaves me ultimately cold. To see people whose understanding of hip-hop doesn't extend past a few random viewings of BET, or their disgust at the handful of black boys they happen to notice on the street or on the train, proffering this idea that Obama will civilize the blacks makes me retch:
Lately I've been wondering what an Obama White House might mean for the future of bling. For the fate of heavy gold, medallions, below-the-butt denim, the whole hip-hop gangsta fashion habit. What if January 20, 2009 turned out to be not just a cultural and clothing pivot point for adults -- a return to the minimalism of sleek, 60s-era sharkskin suits, the containment of golf-ball sized Barbara Bush costume pearls -- but a watershed fashion moment for teenaged boys?
That's Mary Battiata whose ignorance of black kids is revealed by the fact that she's still using the word "bling." The "racial resentment" in her statement is like level 12 on the "Arrogance of Whiteness" scale. I could almost hear the Pat Boone rocking in the background. Battiata then launches into a predictable argument that hip-hop fashion is the real problem in the black community, and that Obama's aspect may create some of sort cultural transition in which black kids think it's cool to walk around in business suits, because everyone knows hip-hop fashion can be summed up in gold teeth, wife-beaters and gaudy jewels. No one in hip-hop wears suits.
Listen man, I don't busy myself perusing the fashions of teenage white boys, but I'm quite certain if I did, I could find some pretty objectionable outfits (ones not ripped off from black people). But black people are the stand-in for poor people in this era, and poor people are always held to a higher moral standard. Battiata seems completely ignorant of the fact that hip-hop's sales have been tumbling for a few years now, that part of that tumbling is the disgust that black youth themselves have expressed with the music. A few key-strokes of google or, heaven forbid, some actual reporting with real live black kids would have given Battiata some grounding. But nuts to that. Better to sit on one's ass and hold forth on the finer points of black youth culture, because, you know, it's only black people.
I'm not suprised to see Mickey Kaus jumping in on this. Kaus can only think of three things when it comes to the blacks--welfare, affirmative action and sista souljah. He isn't even worth a block quote. I'm a little more bothered by Andrew Sullivan (anyone who reads this blog knows I'm a fan) pushing this dumb-ass notion that black kids don't call Obama "'nigger" out of some sort of sign of respect:
Random anecdote: walking the beagles the other day, I bumped into a neighbor who told me that she noticed one word that the young black teens and boys she knows in the neighborhood don't use about Obama. The n-word. Or as Battiata puts it: the suit next time.
First, I'm almost certain that isn't true. I know in moments of levity in my home, I've definitely heard an Obama speech and issued a "Nigger, please." I know some of you agree with Andrew. You know how I feel. But, more generally, I hate this idea that ALL black teens are somehow interchangable with what a few white bloggers find most objectionable in hip-hop. When you have actual black teens in your family, when you are raising them yourself, when you were one at some point in your life, you understand how this need to make us smaller, this desire to turn the most troubled amongst us, into all of us, is the cousin of welfare queens and Willie Horton.
A quick aside: I've spent most of my life learning this great craft from two sources--rappers and professional writers, most of them white. I've been reading The New Republic, The Atlantic, and the New Yorker for most of my life, steady banging Wu-Tang Forever, or Reasonable Doubt the whole time. My Black Panther father put me on to Wall Street Journal when I was in high school, and the New York Observer when I was in college. My heroes in this business are virtually all white (how many black people are doing long-form journalism these days? I'm still stuck on Baldwin) and when I read shit like this and this, I'm left humbled wishing I was smarter and worked harder. And yet so often, these same writers (not literally the ones I linked) whose minds are so nimble and nuanced, go rigor mortis when it comes to black people. I don't get it.
There are many, many tribes of whiteness in America which I don't particularly understand. I didn't get how some white people go off to expensive colleges and then spend their friday nights, french-kissing a keg of the world's cheapest beer, until they're rendered unconscious. I remember the first white parties I went to, in my early twenties, and I was shocked to see people standing around clutching plastic cups, music playing, but no one dancing. It took some time for me to get blue-collar comedy. I'm still not up on cucumber sandwiches--but judging by the diabetes rates here in Harlem, maybe I should be.
We all have our prejudice, but every time I've ever mistaked that prejudice for some sort of insight, I've paid for it. I learned to like going to parties standing around at actually "talking"--I didn't have to worry about some dude forming a Soul Train and forcing me to do my pitiful rendition of the Reebok or the Cabbage Patch. I still don't get the "keg party" shit, but I can be found on Saturdays in September, at half-time, standing on the sidelines, my hand on my son's face-mask, telling him "Get'r done."
Before, I started reading Andrew, I thought all gay people liked the HRC, sort of how a lot of white writers think all black people like the NAACP or Al Sharpton. You live and you learn I guess. I want writers to stop assuming that they know who we are, that black people are so simple as to be summed up in the latest Henry Louis Gates's missive (or Ta-Nehisi Coates missive, for that matter). I want writers to stop wishing that Barack Obama will teach us how to act. As in most things, when discussing us, they've got it exactly backwards.
The Beautiful Struggle: A Father, Two Sons, and an Unlikely Road to Manhood 
Man this is what bothered me about Obama's speech in the first place. It's become really freaking boilerplate for "responsible" politicians to stand up and lecture black folks for their family life (I mean remember Joe Biden at the NAACP debate?). That may not be such a bad thing on its own, but it almost always BECOMES a bad thing because it's used to justify virtually every racist bit of "common knowledge" out there. I've seen "black illegitimacy" used to argue against better housing policy, better jobs policy, prison reform, affirmative action, you name it. Now that the core critique is coming out of Obama's mouth, the people who want to use that critique to argue for wholesale abandonment of black America are going to feel even more secure in their "racial resentful" bullshit. Exhibit A being that asshole Kaus.
I'm so glad you wrote this. I was shocked when Sullivan parroted this line of thought. It is so ill-informed. The inventor of the term "Bling" doesn't even use it anymore. Jay-z called for people to 'button up.' In their eyes hip-hop is a static culture of Gangsta rap and pants hanging down around your knees.
I wonder when the last time these urban anthropologist have gone to a skate park and seen what these kids wear, listen to, and talk like.
Hmm...Andrew Sullivan? How do you explain his very troubling interest in the works of Charles Murray, William Saletan, and Richard Lynn; the recent ravings of James Watson; the most offensive and bizarre practitioners of evolutionary psychology; and, the kookier elements of the gnxp.com kooks? Beware Mr. Coates, Sullivan is a false friend.
Also, all one can say about Mickey Kaus is that he is a self-appointed judge of when black Americans can truly be considered civilized and worthy of citizenship. To him, as I see it, that day has yet to arrive. He isn't even worth the time it takes to write this sentence.
2 thoughts about clothes:
I guess clothes really do make the man; it never ceases to amaze me how much stock people put in what people wear--as if wearing a suit confers some sort of status upon things. Yesterday, I wore a fucking suit to a goddamn 12/hr job interview in the muggiest, hottest weather ever only to be greeted by a lady in a short skirt, tee-shirt, and flip flops. And guess what? She was NOT impressed; I might as well have shown up in baggy jeans and "bling." Grumble, grumble.
Secondly, when I was in high school, I worked at Bob Evans as a cashier and for some reason (probably because I was black), the white lady I was ringing up started in on this speech about how she really liked Alan Keyes (in my memory, he was in the early stages of running for President at the time?) because he was built on 'such principle', and that's always stuck with me in terms of this idea that best black people are well behaved and wear suits.
I deeply appreciate this post. I have been feeling so isolated and alone with this exact same line of concern, and your well-chosen words have kept me from feeling completely crazy. Thank you for representing so well those of us engaged in youth work who have neither the time nor the talent to do what you do. We have been needing you for a very long time.
Great post. This entry reminded me of an interesting incident a few months ago when a white co-worker expressed appreciation for the Mary J. Blige of today, whereas several black co-workers expressed distaste, a yearning for the Mary of yesterday, and even the unspoken opinion that her reinvented image was an attempt to pander to a larger demographic.
I have a friend who was denied an interview because she showed up in the flip-flops and jeans and was not wearing "business casual attire", so I'm not sure clothes don't matter. But moreso than clothes, or hair, or bangles, or whatever, I marvel at Obama calls into question those seemingly pointless round table college discussions I remember and makes them matter now: what is black, is there a black culture, does it need to be defined and if so why...
I thought the fatherhood speech could have been done in a more nuanced manner sort of like the first counter-Wright speech. It didn't bother me as much as it did when Cosby said it because Cosby has more baggage (the drunken female temple student incident, and that girl who "could" have been his daughter)... but all this debate shows why I like Obama.
It's not because I should expect him to single-handedly make all these changes, but moreso because almost everything he says/does forces you to reassess the borderlines of race, class and culture for yourself. He doesn't fit in the boxes and demographics and stereotypes we are most comfortable with. Can't say he's white, but conversations like this connote he has a disconnect with his "blackness", whatever that is supposed to be.
Guess he's more American than anything.
Not that Kaus is worth blockquoting, but it's at least instructive that in his very brief summary of the original piece (of crap), he uses the word "kill" three times. You're all shocked, I'm sure.
Don't blame the idiocy of Kaus or Mary Battiata on the Father's Day speech. They were idiots long before that.
Too Sense wrote a post on Battiata's idiocy here:
http://halfricanrevolution.blogspot.com/2008/06/please-tell-me-shes-kidding.html
Obama didn't invent that speech for Father's Day, 2008. He's been saying that speech or some variation of it for at least FIVE YEARS that I know of; did you criticize it before Monday?
Mr. Coates:
You disappoint. When I heard you speak on NPR, I marveled at your brilliance and depth. Your blog reads like it was written by a completely different person from the one I heard on the radio.
You write of the “Arrogance of Whiteness,” yet you seem oblivious to your own arrogance or, worse yet, are completely aware of it and easily excuse yourself for it.
You have the power to become someone of great and positive influence. I hope that you someday discover that the greatness that awaits you is more valuable that writing a bunch of trash talk. The trash talk may make you feel clever (it is indeed very artful trash talk), but that kind of high doesn’t last. You can only keep up the good feeling by doing it more it more. What an incredible waste of a brilliant mind.
I’ll keep you mind. I’ll check in from time to time. It may not happen soon, but I think you will awake to your full potential, and value that potential for what it is worth.
Sorry to disappoint, Lance. I can only speak from my heart. I do assure you I'm the same guy you heard on the radio. I hope you stick around.
T.
You're not the only one who doesn't get keggers. That stuff's just silly.
Mind numbling ignorant post on race, black people and hip-hop.
So many notions to dispel. So little time. Must. Try. And. Compute....
As far as that, hip-hop sales has been tumbling, I would hafta say that's a little misleading. The industry as a hole has been inna slump. But then again, hip-hop artists are making a lot more money of downloads and ringtones, than traditional albums. Album sales are down. For everyone. Not necessarily just hip-hop. Plus, this is on the eve of when Lil Wayne is probably going to have the largest single sales release of anyone this year. The top two? Kayne West and 50 Cent. Again. Hip-hop ain't starvin' for sales. Small point tho.
I find this argument frustrating because people are so ignorant about hip-hop that it's kind of a waste of time to even argue about. Not only about the culture but the artist in the culture. Half of these cats couldn't pick Lil Wayne, Rakim or KRS-One out of a lineup. Half of these cats hear half of a verse on the radio and fell qualified to explain an artist's entire catalogue. Just seems blissfully ignorant to me.
I don't have a problem with baggy clothes, gold teeth and other issues people use to stereotype people. I have a problem when people don't know how to play the game and those things are used to hinder them.
I wear baggy clothes.
On my day off.
But not to work.
I listen to Snoop.
But I don't talk that way to my fiancee. And I don't allow anybody to talk her that way.
We need people who know the culture to explain it to these fools.
That way, we don't have fools like Imus trying to cover up for his foolishness by pointing at Snoop. Like he validates his racism.
Sorry to ramble ya'll. I'm delirious from studying. Lol.
P.S. - my criticisms weren't aimed at Ta-Nehisi. But the people being quoted in the posts.
You know, for a blog that claims black people don't always sit around thinking about what white people think of them, there is an awful lot of complaining about about what white people think and say about black people. I mean, Barack Obama gives a speech about black fatherhood, and instead of a discussion of black fatherhood, we get a discussion of how stupid white people are to think Obama is saying something novel.
Call me naive, but I'd try to take this opportunity in which white people (yours truly included) are expressing opinions about black people to draw us into some kind of substantive discussion. But if you want to sit back and jaw about how we don't get it, it's a free country.
Groove,
All good points on hip-hop's sales--especially re: Lil Wayne. One point worth checking out though is that if you follow through the link, you'll see that slump in rap sales is larger than the industry-wide slump. It could be ring-tones, but when I wrote that piece, I talked to quite a few artists, and the sense was that the business is taking a plunge. Maybe when you factor in ring-tones it's no bigger than the industry at large. I'm going to be honest and say that's beyond me. I do think that the points made by younger cats--that hip-hop (in its mass consumptive form) has been kinda stuck on stupid for a decade now is worth considering.
T.
I'm a white guy who goes to parties and stands around clutching a plastic cup, but I'm also baffled by the previously-unknown concept of a cucumber sandwich. I suppose there's a healthy helping of mayonnaise involved?
I'm 20 years old, live in the Bay Area of California, and went through a little "ghetto phase" 8-10th grade. And I can tell you for sure: hip hop culture has changed quite a bit.
Kanye West, Jay-Z, P.Diddy became the faces of what the new hip hop scene would look like-- they showed us that it was okay to dress nicely, be successful, and have fun without being considered a sell out. Jay-Z's clothing line reflected that as well.
Hip hop music has changed accordingly-- and that's why artists like Master P, Eminem, Dr. Dre have gone the way of the dodo. But we'll still be stuck with the same ol' stereotypes.
Thank you for this post.
love your blog fam...
but you're focusing on meaningless minutae here... white folk aint ever gonna "get it" when it comes to black culture and blacks aint ever gonna get theirs... I went to Columbia, trust me, I still shake my head at some of the stuff I saw... and Friends and Seinfeld are the worst shows of all time to me...
I feel your frustration but her focus on what the hood wears and the corresponding impact does have some basis in reality... It aint coincidence that implementing uniforms in schools seems to have helped bring down crime and other hood behavior in schools...
I think you fall into the trap way too many intellectuals of color do and snap at what you rightly call the "lazy" journalism by caucasians that leads them to aggregate all people of color into one monolithic entity.
While doing that you miss the major point she was trying to make, and one that is worth discussing. Will an Obama win in November have a tangible impact on how black youths view and present themselves in a public setting and if so, what will that impact be?
I'm sure you have some great thoughts on just that topic alone, but to delve into her admittedly lazy journalism as if that's a bigger issue than hood fashion just leaves your readers(at least this one) wanting a lil bit more.
peace my dude
J
I loved your post.
And I completely get your point that you made (in an earlier post) that Obama is certainly not the first to send the message with his "fatherhood" speech.
However I would like to posit that while his message is certainly not new, I still feel like the podium speaks from (the national political platform) and that he repeatedly complicates discussions on race (Wright) is new. That combination, I mean. I hate the term, "post-racial" because it implies Obama does not talk about race when he does, and often in ways we have never heard POLITICIAN speak who is running for president. I do think that matters.
Also while you did not make the comparison to Cosby, many others did. And subsequently the coverage around the speech did leave me cold. However, the speech itself need not. I think it is a mistake to simply label Obama's speech under "personal responsibility" and be done with it as many in the media have. (Again I don't think you do this.)
I don't mean to plug, but I wrote a whole post on why I thought Obama and Cosby comparisons are annoying that I'd rather not retype. http://indian2006.wordpress.com/2008/06/16/why-obama-and-cosby-comparisons-are-annoying/
Hey Nate,
Since you seem to be an expert on black fatherhood, why don't you enlighten us with your opinions?
Great post. I also wrote about Battiata's article here: http://halfricanrevolution.blogspot.com/2008/06/please-tell-me-shes-kidding.html
Over at Huffpo, Mary Battiata wonders whether Obama will kill off bling. Here's her opening paragraph:
"Lately I've been wondering what an Obama White House might mean for the future of bling. For the fate of heavy gold, medallions, below-the-butt denim, the whole hip-hop gangsta fashion habit. What if January 20, 2009 turned out to be not just a cultural and clothing pivot point for adults -- a return to the minimalism of sleek, 60s-era sharkskin suits, the containment of golf-ball sized Barbara Bush costume pearls -- but a watershed fashion moment for teenaged boys?"
A little further down she continues:
"This week in the nation's capital, Washington Post's Metro columnist Courtland Milloy wrote about the street scene in the mostly African-American, inner-city neighborhood of Trinidad, where D.C. police have set up a Balkans-style traffic checkpoints in and out of the neighborhood in an effort to stem a recent spate of drug related murders. Sitting on the front porch of 67-year-old Willie Dorn, a retired corrections officer, Milloy noted the antics of a group of teenaged boys "shirtless, pants below their behinds," who, as Milloy and Dorn watched, launched a plastic bottle at a passing scooter, nearly causing an accident. "Maybe a President Obama could help restore some pride in the black community," Dorn said."
Now, the idea of Obama restoring some pride in the black community is perfectly reasonable, and it's something that I know a lot of us want to see happen. The problem is, Battiata has some really, really unrealistic notions of what effect that might have:
"Until Barack Obama came along, the most visible pop culture exemplar of 1960s suit-and-tie style was the tightly-wound Rev. Louis Farrakhan. But Farrakhan, for all his former high visibility, was never mainstream. It's no surprise that he failed to inspire a national craze for slim suits and buffed oxfords.
Barack Obama is different. Barack Obama is the suit next time."
My first question is...has this woman ever met a teenage male? He could be from any race, white, black, latino, whatever. He's a teenager. And he's male. Which means that in all likelihood he's in that phase of life where his little head does more thinking for him than his big one does. Where he's constantly sizing up everyone he meets to decide if he wants to fight them or fuck them. Odds are also really good that said teenage male is heavily into the whole "let me see how much my clothes can piss of my parents" schtick. And it is a virtual certainty that he doesn't give a flying fuck what Obama or any other politician is wearing. That's just not how teenage boys work.
Battiata, not too surprisingly, thinks that the whole pants-below-your-ass, heavy-bling thing is just about black males. She needs to go to her local suburban mall, and observe all the faux wiggers, the Eminem accolytes who adopt every hip-hop fashion they see, but probably don't know any actual black people in their daily lives. You know the kids I'm talking about: short, bleached hair, wife-beater t-shirt, over-sized jeans drooped below the ass, tacky rope chains, patchy little "when does puberty happen" wanna-beard on the chin, speech patterns filled with "street" lingo...as filtered by the CW and urban radio.
Dressing like a fucking retard isn't a race thing, it's an age thing. It's all part of the life cycle, going from cute, lovable kid to pain-in-the-ass tween to total fucking idiot teenager to, hopefully, halfway reasonable twentysomething, on towards middle-age-dreading thirtysomething. These teenage boys don't dress the way they do because of lack of pride, they dress that way to non-verbally tell every adult within line-of-sight "fuck you very much." Today it's the pants-below-the-ass, before that it was something else, be it acid-washed "destroyed" jeans, parachute pants, or tight-fitting nylon dickies (what, you think adults approved of what John Travolta was wearing in Saturday Night Fever?).
But even if one were to accept the casually racist premise that this clothing "problem" she's identified is specific to black teens, there's just no way that anything Barack Obama does, says, or wears is going to change any of that. Pop culture does not flow downwards from the White House. I was about to say it flows down from "TRL", but I think that's out of date: nowadays it's probably a Myspace and Youtube thing. And kids aren't watching the President for fashion tips.
Hell, forget the President. look at pop-culture figures. Obama isn't the only black man out there wearing a nice suit. D.L. Hughley wears a suit plenty of the time. So do Chris Rock, Kanye West, P-Diddy and Jamie Foxx. All of those cats are a lot more present in pop-cultural circles than Obama, all of them are way, way cooler than Obama. And none of them is changing a thing about what teenagers do or wear.
I have no problems with Obama's speech, and think it unfair to blame Obama for other people's banality. OTOH, I'm ok with white folks being behind the curve. (And genuinely appreciate Ta-Nehisi's report of being behind the curve on white culture.) I mean - how does this stuff get worked out if we don't start actually looking at each other?
Given our statistical representation in the world, I'm rather glad that Obama is willing to speak up, and make the case that we will help ourselves and that government will meet us half-way. Yeah, there's plenty to be said about root causes, proximate causes and the like, but I'm ok with taking whatever we can get to move the dial a little bit.
Thanks for responding, Ta-Nehisi. I've heard all the arguments about the current state of hip-hop. The true school movement arguments. The Clear Channel conspiracy arguments. And I don't discount any of it.
I would just say if your evidence of this isn't based on an examination of an artist, a song, an album, then I don't find it to be a compelling one. Like saying Snoop's music is all the same and you haven't listened to a whole album of his in 10 years. Seems like you should know what you're talking about (not you per see .. the point of view). Second point is it seems like I lot of these complaints come from nostalgia. For example, sasying Gang Starr's "DWYCK" (which I love by the way) was a higher form of hip-hop. Really? If you listen to the lyrics it's just as non-sensical as "Lollipop." It's just I was 15 when I heard that and I'm 31 now. Guess which one speaks to me. And my last point is, talking about how bad current hip-hop is all the time, is, ironically what most people accuse current artists of -- talking about the same thing all of the time. There's got to be something else to talk about.
For the record, I don't have a dog in this fight. I tend to listen to everything so I'm like John McCain -- on both sides of every issue. Also, I tend to think the complaints about the current state of hip-hop is fueled more by laziness than anything else. Get out and look for it and you'll find plenty of stuff to soothe the soul.
Small points tho. Didn't mean to get off topic. Love the blog by the way.
I dunno, people who anguish about how teenagers dress, particularly teenagers who are the polar opposite to their own class and social environment, must have missed out on some how its impossible to escape participation in the theatre of style, which can be a lot of fun. When expressive, style baffles those who are of different races, ages, sexual preferences, because style is a way we tell one another how we are different, the most acceptable form of difference being economic: "look at me this is expensive". They have also missed out on respect for and curiosity about other people. I lived in Thailand for a while where all adolescent males have to do 3 months in a monastery, complete with robes, and remember how much fun it was to see the subtle variations in style kids could make with a couple yards of saffron. Im now 54 and live in a town where white kids tattoo their faces and disfigure their earlobes with half dollar sized inserts. I have no idea what it means to them, and what it means to me doesn't really matter, apart from that we have a really different sense of vanity. I remember infiltrating the scary punk kids of the 70s with their safety pins and leather only to find a community of nerds and misfits who wouldnt hurt a flea. If I had a lot of money Id have 20 perfect white shirts and a bunch of Brooks Brothers suits but kids who really defy gravity with their belt line are not my enemy. There is also a certain amount of creativity and art in these styles, and not every kid can afford Comme des Garcons, and just have to figure out how to put a shirt on backwards and inside out on their own, without spending 500 dollars. I havent lived in a town where hip hop figured much on the street for many years, and don't know what it would represent to me (apart from tired, cuz I was in NYC clubs in the 80s and a lot of this is not very fresh) but when I read these people who are all upset, you just know whatever it is the kids bring downtown, is gonna be scary.
I dunno, people who anguish about how teenagers dress, particularly teenagers who are the polar opposite to their own class and social environment, must have missed out on some how its impossible to escape participation in the theatre of style, which can be a lot of fun. When expressive, style baffles those who are of different races, ages, sexual preferences, because style is a way we tell one another how we are different, the most acceptable form of difference being economic: "look at me this is expensive". They have also missed out on respect for and curiosity about other people. I lived in Thailand for a while where all adolescent males have to do 3 months in a monastery, complete with robes, and remember how much fun it was to see the subtle variations in style kids could make with a couple yards of saffron. Im now 54 and live in a town where white kids tattoo their faces and disfigure their earlobes with half dollar sized inserts. I have no idea what it means to them, and what it means to me doesn't really matter, apart from that we have a really different sense of vanity. I remember infiltrating the scary punk kids of the 70s with their safety pins and leather only to find a community of nerds and misfits who wouldnt hurt a flea. If I had a lot of money Id have 20 perfect white shirts and a bunch of Brooks Brothers suits but kids who really defy gravity with their belt line are not my enemy. There is also a certain amount of creativity and art in these styles, and not every kid can afford Comme des Garcons, and just have to figure out how to put a shirt on backwards and inside out on their own, without spending 500 dollars. I havent lived in a town where hip hop figured much on the street for many years, and don't know what it would represent to me (apart from tired, cuz I was in NYC clubs in the 80s and a lot of this is not very fresh) but when I read these people who are all upset, you just know whatever it is the kids bring downtown, is gonna be scary.
Ta-nehisi that is one of the best posts you have ever written.
Thought you might want to see this.
http://bannedindc.wordpress.com/2008/06/18/ta-nehisi-coates-is-exactly-right/
R
This whole discussion is incomplete without noting that the only reason non-black U.S. residents, and some black U.S. residents ("non-blacks," as shorthand), are negative about certain aspects of black style ("Hood," as shorthand), and feel relief at the prospect of Hood's departure, is due to its connection with crime. Over the decades, black criminals have instilled enormous amounts of fear and anger in non-blacks, and to a non-trivial extent the style of black criminals has been Hood (whatever Hood may have consisted of at a particular point in time).
If it weren't for all the crime -- all the people robbed, assaulted, raped and killed -- none of those negative feelings would exist. Blacks would light up every pleasure center in non-blacks' brains, and be looked at with even more enormous admiration and envy than they already are (_despite_ all that crime!) for all their brilliant contributions to style, music, dance, comedy, language, etc.
Is the argument that this situation has changed? That if one goes to a skate park, and observes and talks with black youth, one will learn that non-criminal blacks and criminals blacks no longer share whatever currently constitutes Hood?
If that's true, it's great news and eventually its good effects will be felt. It's a shame that some time will have to pass, but realistically it can't be otherwise. If it's not true, then there's really no reason for non-blacks to feel other than they do.
Groove -
Thanks for the DWYCK ref.
I needed that. Brings back some very fond memories!
Can we get into a discussion of how 'Brand New Funk' (of which just came on my mp3 right after 'Canon' (DJ Drama Remix)), in my opinion, is still one of the hottest beats that Jeff ever did (and that of course, brings in the forgotten 'hip hop' artist, Sir William Smith)?
Ok... maybe another time.
=]
"Call me naive, but I'd try to take this opportunity in which white people (yours truly included) are expressing opinions about black people to draw us into some kind of substantive discussion."
At this point, I don't even know if it's productive to attempt to draw white people into discussions at all. I don't know about Mr. Coates, but these days, when I comment on things like this (the reactions of any given group of combination of groups of whites to a given event), I'm actually talking to other black people, even if I happen to address whites who get into the conversation. I'm actually talking to other blacks with an eye toward reminding them not to internalize whites' negative opinions and/or uninformed, twisted perspectives vis-a-vis black Americans.
I agree with the bulk of your sentiment in this post, but I think you're off-base with this part, in a way that's unfair to Battiata and reflects poorly on your own in-touchness:
"A few key-strokes of google or, heaven forbid, some actual reporting with real live black kids would have given Battiata some grounding."
I think Battiata's being dumb, and as is pointed out several times above is clearly not thinking about the way kids (of any race) are, but I'm not sure the error is necessarily in the perception of the fashion and music preferences of the preponderance of black youth.
I'm an inner-city public school teacher in a de facto segregated system. I've had over four hundred students in the last few years, only one of them non-black. I have not extensively surveyed my students on their music preferences, but of course you get to know people teaching them for a year, reading their essays, intercepting their surreptitious notes, chit-chatting in idler moments, overhearing their conversations, hearing what blasts on their way-too-loud headphones, and so on, and I don't think it would be unreasonable to estimate that among my students virtually all listen to rap, and that many or most of the males listen almost exclusively to rap. If asked to rank favorite musical artists, certainly more than 50% and I wouldn't be surprised to find that 90% or more would name Jeezy and Wayne in the top 5 (I teach in the South). (There'd be a lot of gospel and R&B fans, too -- but mostly girls.)
Also, since 87% of America is not black, a dip in rap sales does not necessarily reflect a similar dip in its sale to young black males.
I have had exactly two students publicly express fandom of a rock band or rock music in general -- both of them were somewhat known for this and other "weird" personality quirks (and in the case of one of them, for being openly gay), and I saw both of them either gently teased or openly mocked for perceived whiteness.
Call me naive, but I'd try to take this opportunity in which white people (yours truly included) are expressing opinions about black people to draw us into some kind of substantive discussion.
That's exactly what he's trying to do, if you were paying attention. It's a critique of an article about race and if white people, like me, want a substantive discussion then we can respond substantively, unlike your response.
I enjoyed reading this post as well as the comments...but perhaps I'm typical and narrow-minded, because I don't get why there are sniping comments about Seinfeld and Friends and white people not dancing at parties, or liking keggers. I think I've seen bits and pieces of a few Seinfeld episodes and I do enjoy watching Friends reruns, but is that what it boils down to? Someone thinking that "white folk are just strange to me and they'll never understand black culture, just like I'll never get their TV shows"?
I guess the jackass writer boiled it down to clothing and how, seemingly, that would in her mind be the path to better jobs for blacks, safer streets, less pollution being borne mainly by urban communities that are largely populated by minorities. So maybe the comments are just following along with that thread of writing? Ignorance must be bliss for that writer...change their clothes and you will change the world! If only it were that simple. If only it didn't have to do with a pervasive undercurrent of racism inherent in our society.
For what it's worth, when I was in college I never stood around clutching a plastic cup and occasionally nodding my head to the music (unless it was country. sorry country music lovers, but I just couldn't take it). I danced up a storm--at keggers or elsewhere. But perhaps I was odd, because I looked forward more to the dancing than the keg.
Anyone listen NY Oil? I don't know a ton of his work, but I like what I've heard and it seemed pretty fresh to me as well as to my friends who are very well-versed in underground rap and are tired of the current hip-hop scene.