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	<id>tag:ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com,2009://8/tag:ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com,2008://31.41263-</id>
	<updated>2009-06-08T03:37:05Z</updated>
	<title>Comments for Class-Based Integration</title>
	
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		<id>tag:ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com,2008://31.41263</id>
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		<published>2008-07-25T13:33:00Z</published>
		<updated>2008-08-04T16:51:06Z</updated>
		<title>Class-Based Integration</title>
		<summary>So, hope everyone checked out Emily Bazelon&apos;s piece in the Times Magazine on Sunday discussing the merits of class-based integration. As it turns out, putting there&apos;s sort of an event horizon for schools in which too many poor kids basically...</summary>
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			<![CDATA[<p>So, hope everyone checked out <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/20/magazine/20integration-t.html?ref=magazine">Emily Bazelon's piece</a> in the Times Magazine on Sunday discussing the merits of class-based integration. As it turns out, putting there's sort of an event horizon for schools in which too many poor kids basically make the school unmanageable. Emily highlights the very interesting case of a North Carolina school district where class-based integration has been a terrific boon for black kids:</p><p></p><blockquote><p>
	Wake County adopted class-based integration with the hard-nosed goal of
	raising test scores. The strategy was simple: no poor schools, no bad
	schools. And indeed, the district has posted striking improvements in
	the test scores of black and low-income students: in 1995, only 40
	percent of the black students in Wake County in the third through
	eighth grades scored at grade level in state reading tests; by last
	year, the rate had almost doubled, to 82.5 percent. Statewide scores
	for black students also got better over the same time period, but not
	by as much. Wake County’s numbers improve as students get older: 92
	percent of all eighth graders read at or above grade level, including
	about 85 percent of black students and about 80 percent of low-income
	students. (Math scores are lower, following a statewide trend that
	reflects a change in the grading scale.) The district has achieved
	these results even as the share of low-income students over all has
	increased from about 30 percent a decade ago to about 40 percent today.
	
</p></blockquote><p><a href="http://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/07/hope_for_integration.php">Matt</a>, <a target="_blank" href="http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2008_07/014160.php">Kevin</a> and <a href="http://takingnote.tcf.org/2008/07/can-school-inte.html">Richard Kahlenberg</a> are debating over whether a solution like this could be applied nationally. The consensus being basically, no, because we aren't going to blow up the system of school districts in this country. But to my mind, the piece helps us get out from under the cloud of pessimism that follows any conversation about the gap in test-scores.&nbsp; </p><p>But there is something else at work here.&nbsp; Her research on class and achievement is helpful because it really shows (to me) that the problem of America's racist past is that it basically affected a massive wealth-transfer out of black communities. More than that, I like Emily's piece because it exposes the lie that racial inequality is completely intractable. But that's never really been true. There are two questions here--how are we going to fix the race chasm, and how far are we really willing to go to do it? People like to focus on the former, because the truly frightening one is the latter. We're forever trying to achieve equality by not negatively impacting white people. You can look back at the War on Poverty and see how desperate folks were to make it look color-blind. How'd that work out? I think one of the reasons Affirmative Action was extended to basically everyone but white males, was likely, so it wouldn't be reparations. Ironically, class-based integration uses the same logic. I'm a fan because I believe in it on principle. But the politics of it seem to be captive to ancient formulations: Despite the fact that slavery and Jim Crow crippled black folks, we want to heal those wounds by inconviencing white people as little as possible. It's been this way since Reconstruction. If I'm pessimistic about anything it isn't not knowing the right thing to do, it's having the will to get it done.</p>]]>
			
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		<id>tag:ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com,2008://31.41263-comment:114340</id>

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		<title>Comment from Peter on 2008-07-25</title>
		<author>
				<name>Peter</name>
				<uri></uri>
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				<![CDATA[<p>That economist video of Megan McArdle you posted the other day actually plays into this a little, in that she was discussing the creation of certain archetypes in the American consciousness.  Among them have been the welfare queen, the illegal immigrant, and the subprime borrower.</p>

<p>I think the archetype here which exists in the minds of many upper middle class white (and asian) people is the "affirmative action student."  These are kids who grew up in similar, upper middle class, environs as their own, but who because of their race get into college and jobs ahead of themselves/their children.  Obviously this is a caricature, but that caricature exists in many minds, and ends up playing into the debate.</p>

<p>On the other side, there are some (admittedly farther out of mainstream thought) persons who think that growing up black anywhere in America puts you at a massive disadvantage and it is unfair to hold you to similarly high standards as we might ask of white students or job seekers.</p>

<p>Neither picture is accurate in my opinion, but both play somewhat into the picture.  "Colour-blind" systems allow the people holding the first picture to not feel that their peers who happen to be minorities are getting an unneeded boost, and allow the other people who think that black people are necessarily poor and in crumbling schools to think that they're still getting the same result.</p>]]>
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		<published>2008-07-25T15:16:49Z</published>
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	<entry>
		<id>tag:ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com,2008://31.41263-comment:114341</id>

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		<title>Comment from Amitav on 2008-07-25</title>
		<author>
				<name>Amitav</name>
				<uri>http://amitavmisra.blogspot.com</uri>
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				<![CDATA[<p>I'm glad you picked this up. It seems to me that people who care about poor people should be profoundly pro-school choice, pro-charter, pro-parochial, pro-virtual schools, pro-trade school and community college. Basically, create more options for working class parents. My high school was 90% black and Latino, and recently shut down under NCLB. I don't think that the racial segregation harmed the kids as<br />
much as the socioeconomic segregation. The 10% white and Asian kids were still probably 90% poor.  Funny thing: most of the kids were bussed in. They brought kids from a lower middle class and working poor neighborhood to a school in a neighborhood of abject poverty. Never made any sense to me. In my town (Austin, liberal oasis), the bussing policies were hilarious-- they started in 1981 in response to a lawsuit and by the late 80s only poor kids (minority kids) were being bussed anywhere. Rich parents raised a fuss so kids could stay in the neighborhood. </p>

<p>Bottom line: empower poor parents with transparency and choice. I don't understand why so many so-called progressives are knee-jerk against this. Doubly ironic when those progressives attended a school where one year of kindergarten costs almost as much as a degree from the University of Texas. </p>]]>
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		<published>2008-07-25T20:20:01Z</published>
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	<entry>
		<id>tag:ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com,2008://31.41263-comment:114342</id>

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		<title>Comment from MeDrewNotYou on 2008-07-25</title>
		<author>
				<name>MeDrewNotYou</name>
				<uri>http://profile.typekey.com/MeDrewNotYou/</uri>
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				<![CDATA[<p>"Despite the fact that slavery and Jim Crow crippled black folks, we want to heal those wounds by inconviencing white people as little as possible. It's been this way since Reconstruction."</p>

<p>This is one of the things that has always surprised me most about nearly every black person I know.  Its a kind of forgiveness that's hard to imagine.  And while much of the younger generation is able to accept it, my parents refuse to believe it.</p>

<p>One of the most interesting things I've heard said about race was when my mom said she didn't trust Obama because, "When he's in office, he'll only take care of black people."  When I ask her why, she said, "Did you see what my parent's generation did to them?"</p>]]>
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		<published>2008-07-26T02:08:52Z</published>
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	<entry>
		<id>tag:ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com,2008://31.41263-comment:114343</id>

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		<title>Comment from macheath on 2008-07-26</title>
		<author>
				<name>macheath</name>
				<uri></uri>
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				<![CDATA[<p>A big problem with the Bazelon story is that the data on improvements in Wake County, while impressive, aren't compared either to statewide trends (as measured by state tests) or national trends (as measured by the National Assessment of Education Progress, NAEP for we wonkies.)  And the trend in Wake County, at least in math scores for younger kids, is almost exactly the same as the trend statewide, and nationally.  In other words, something is going on in the test scores, but it isn't exclusive to, or numerically different, in Wake County, and therefore you can't attribute the Wake County gains immediately to some specific policy in the county alone.  This may be what happens when you have legal reporters pick and choose data that they don't seem to understand, and are used to cherry picking in order to prove a case; statistical reporters only!!</p>]]>
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		<published>2008-07-26T19:47:57Z</published>
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		<id>tag:ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com,2008://31.41263-comment:114344</id>

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		<title>Comment from Lemmy Caution on 2008-07-28</title>
		<author>
				<name>Lemmy Caution</name>
				<uri></uri>
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				<![CDATA[<p>Bottom line: empower poor parents with transparency and choice. I don't understand why so many so-called progressives are knee-jerk against this. Doubly ironic when those progressives attended a school where one year of kindergarten costs almost as much as a degree from the University of Texas. </p>

<p>Any advantage that is made available to the poor will be met and excelled by the wealthy. Everyone will give their child every advantage they believe they can, and it is a race that the wealthy will, by and large, win. There are two separate issues:</p>

<p>1. given that there will always be service-class and working-class jobs, and that the children of the poor will fill them far more than the children of the wealthy, can it become less miserable and stressful and unstable to be in those positions and have families?</p>

<p>2. given that some races and ethnicities (including racial-ethnicities, like African Americans, by which the historical experiences and cultural developments of some becomes mapped on everyone identified as being of the same race) are over-represented among the poor, and the result is a racial/cultural polarization that maps onto the aforementioned inevitable gap between working-class and middle-class families, is it appropriate to look for policies that un-map that mapping, that make race and ethnicity orthogonal to socioeconomic performance?</p>]]>
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		<published>2008-07-28T17:03:55Z</published>
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	<entry>
		<id>tag:ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com,2008://31.41263-comment:114345</id>

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		<title>Comment from Nathan  on 2008-07-28</title>
		<author>
				<name>Nathan </name>
				<uri></uri>
		</author>
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				<![CDATA[<p>Wake county is a great school system but it does not correct long standing historical trends. In my experience, wake county schools look fantastic on the outside but produce few profound changes. Yes, schools are highly integrated. In fact, the best school in the system is in the poorest area and uses agressive busing to get students about (I believe about 1-1.5 hours for the wealthier children from the suburban areas). In short, busing but the reverse direction. However, when you look at the flow of students into the top state public universities, Wake county sends, to my eye, essentially the same demographic as all the other counties (upper middle class predominately white) to the top schools (UNC, NCSU). In fact, if anything, the distribution hurts all the students because it distributes the upper echelon of students (of all races) across too many schools. Thus competition becomes increasingly fierce because we rank at our high schools. Wake county high schools are massive. Being in the top 30 of your class is essential, but every class in Wake county always has 30 special kids, who happen in most cases to be the wealthy white kids. As a result, not much is corrected. Hence Wake County schools list on their public website under student achievement "The four-year graduation rate varied considerably among ethnic subgroups, with nine out of ten Asian and White students, six out of ten African American students and five out of ten Hispanic/Latino students graduating on time." Schools with above 85% grad rates are either in white suburbs of the city with little busing (Apex, Green Hope, Cary) or are the central focus charter schools (Enloe) that receive the most funding. Schools with grad rates between 70-85% are in the rural areas of the county. Finally the predominately black and hispanic areas (Fuquay, knightdale) suffer and still show average grad rates under 70%. Nothing changes, no matter how much you spruce up your statistics and move your students around. Adding 50 very smart/rich kids to a school does a lot of good for the average overall test scores, but does nothing to change the iniquities. Too bad the NY times did not actually interview anyone but the administrators who implement these programs. </p>]]>
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		<published>2008-07-28T17:57:25Z</published>
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		<id>tag:ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com,2008://31.41263-comment:114346</id>

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		<title>Comment from Amitav on 2008-07-28</title>
		<author>
				<name>Amitav</name>
				<uri>http://amitavmisra.blogspot.com/2008/07/should-we-care-about-public-school.html</uri>
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				<![CDATA[<p>I pulled some demographic numbers for two large high schools in central Houston that are about 4 miles apart, just to better understand how integration might work in a large, urban school district with a strong tax base.  Completely non-representative in a district with ~30 high schools, but I'm just a lazy amateur blogger.  </p>

<p>Anyway, one school is in one of the richest, whitest neighborhoods in town, while the other is in a historically black neighborhood that is a mix of lower middle-class and working-class families, as well as some black professional families and an influx of recent gentrification.  The rich neighborhood high school is fairly well-integrated in terms of race and income, I'd guess because many of the neighborhood students are in private schools.  The black neighborhood school has a poorer student body and is almost entirely black.  But is that a bad thing? Does it mean the poor black students there get a worse education than the poor black students in the rich neighborhood school?  I don't think we can say without more info.  I'm not even sure that if given a choice, many of the parents at that particular mostly black high school would move their children, just given the history of the school in that neighborhood.  The link in my name clicks to the numbers and related commentary.</p>]]>
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		<published>2008-07-28T21:06:45Z</published>
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		<id>tag:ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com,2008://31.41263-comment:114347</id>

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		<title>Comment from Amitav on 2008-07-28</title>
		<author>
				<name>Amitav</name>
				<uri>http://amitavmisra.blogspot.com</uri>
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				<![CDATA[<p>Re: Lemmy Caution: I would look at it somewhat differently.  Basic skills of literacy and numeracy are the first goals we should aim for in our high school graduates.  I don't expect that every high school graduate will go to college, but I do want a much higher baseline than we have currently.  I also reject the Murray notion that as a society we've optimally sorted ourselves with the least-skilled at the bottom and the most-skilled on top.  So I want education to be a conduit for talented people born to poor parents to rise.  Public education is supposed to accomplish both of these goals, but often for the poorest it accomplishes neither.</p>

<p>I don't see why we should reject policies that promote poor people just because they might also promote wealthy people.  But in any case, I don't think school choice falls in that category.  Wealthy people already have at least three basic school choices: neighborhood public school, private school, or move to another school district.  I don't begrudge them these options, but I think that at least some concerned poor parents want to be able to consider more options than the neighborhood school, especially if the neighborhood school is failing.  Certainly open registration in large districts seems like a no-brainer, along with regular reporting of some type of measurable results, even if they are only partial reflections of quality.  I also believe we should experiment with charter schools and vouchers more broadly; they may not be the answer, but we just don't know yet.  Certainly they strike me as part of a broad-based attack on the failing status quo.</p>]]>
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		<published>2008-07-28T21:47:27Z</published>
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