Eating your watermelon in front of white people

So, I myself have had some reservations about how honest to be around issues of race. I've also had my disagreements with Bill Cosby and his approach to the problems of black America. I think folks should read Eric Easter's piece on Jesse Jackson and his criticism of Obama. I like Eric, and have a lot of respect for what he's doing over at EbonyJet.com. But I can't get with this perspective from some black progressives that seems to be more concerned with how we show up for white people, than with how we show up in our own communities.

This goes double for the black fatherhood piece. I've been pretty clear about my policy preferences. I want us to take another look at our drug laws. I want the EITC extended to noncustodial parents. I want us to take a hard look at our shocking rates of incarceration, particularly for young black males. But I don't want those policy positions--even for a second--to confuse folks about where I stand on the issue of black fathers. If there isn't a single policy change in the next fifty years, there will never ever be any excuse for a father to walk out on a child.

You must understand that this is incredibly personal for me. Though I had a father, most of my friends coming up in Baltimore did not and most of them paid a price for that. My mother didn't have a father, and hooked up with my father, almost entirely because she thought he'd be true to his paternal duties. Dating back to high school, I've loved three different women in my lifetime. Every one of those women was scarred by a father who'd fallen down on the job. Every one of those women were black. When you spend time cleaning up the crap left by men twice your age, when you walk the streets of Harlem and see kids who clearly need a man to yoke thier asses, when you read about black millionaires like Dr. J and Karl Malone refusing to perform the most basic of human duties, you just get tired.

I'm at a point where I really don't care if Obama was playing politics or whether he was sincere. My instincts say it was a mixture of both. Barack Obama's black father left him when he was a baby to do God know's what nearly a world away. I don't know what in the world could be more important than making sure that your off-spring grows into a healthy, well-adjusted young man. Maybe I should be more understanding, but I'm just not there right now. Some say Barack should have taken that occasion to salute the majority of black men who are doing right by their kids. I guess. Let me be arrogant and say we don't need any salute. What we need is for our brothers in struggle to start acting the part. I don't want any credit. What I want is some fucking help. What I want is for my son to not have to spend half of his time in relationships with women doing the work that half-ass fathers were too lazy to do themselves.

If Barack Obama can help create an environment in which fathers on the lam can be seen for what they are--quitters, cowards, and filth--than I am all for that. If that takes embarrassing these fools in front of white folks, I'm fine with that too. You embarrassed yourself the day you walked out on your kid. Once you abdicated your basic biological duties, you lost all claims to coddling and to respect. As I said, I'll always advocate and work for better policy, mostly because it makes sense, but not because I have an iota of sympathy for men who quit on children.

UPDATE: For the record, Jesse's "talking down to black people" remark only holds true if Jesse sees his opinion as somehow representative of over 30 million black people. But Jesse isn't "black people." I knew exactly who Barack was talking down too. Those folks certainly don't deserve to be talked up to. 

I also want to highlight the generation piece of this. I grew up in the midst of the crack era, reeling from the spate of deadbeat Dads--many of them right in Jesse's generation--and while these "black leaders" were busy boycotting Denny's and trying to get some backward-ass state to remove its treasonous flag, we were bleeding in the streets. The sad fact is that Jesse, Al, and the many at the NAACP have been much more interested in ambulance-chasing and spectacle, than they have been in the very real issues right in their backyard. I wasn't afraid of the Klan in West Baltimore. I was afraid of Murphey Homes, North and Pulaski and Walkbrook Junction. The point isn't that racism had dissappeared as a factor, as much as its that these guys have long been out of touch with the day-to-day issues afflicting black folks. I can't wait for this "Is it the white man or Is it black pathology" dichotomy to end. It's been crippling.

UPDATE #2: Why was Jesse even on Fox News to begin with? I mean seriously. That's where you go to make your case? He knows those dudes hate him. Is he that hungry for publicity?

Comments

Jesse is a lot of things, but he's not absolutely f--king stupid. Appearing on FOX FREAKING NEWS and saying that s--t in front of a hot microphone. Really?

I'm with the cynics that say this, "mistake" happened with Obama's full and quiet knowledge and approval. Jesse knows how he's viewed by white people; anything that definitively dissociates him from Obama will be a good thing in terms of perception to those whites.

Um, also, YES, I would like positive, hard working brothers of America to get a little bit of recognition for doing the right thing and taking care of our business; hell, just a nod to note that we do exist would be nice. Not every black man is a villain yet so many politicians and pundits want to paint us all together with one broad stroke of a brush. What other group in America gets criticized and s--t on en masse like we do? I hate being a f--king graduate student with a mom busting 50 hrs a week, an uncle doing 40 with a bum hip, and a retired grandma who worked till her knees gave in, and having people look me in my damn face and say, "If black people only worked harder. ESPECIALLY black men."

Posted by Alexander | July 11, 2008 3:30 AM

I have a libertarian friend who says the same thing about poor people in general, and it makes steam come out of my ears every single time (which may be why he says it). In general, poor people work harder than anybody on the planet.

I particularly hate hearing that crap from trustafarian kids who went straight from prep school to college to an MBS program to a cushy desk job, and have never felt an actual callous on their hands or anyone else's.

Posted by MikeT | July 11, 2008 9:51 AM

Nothing trustafarian about me, Mike. And there's nothing poor about Karl Malone or Dr. J. This isn't a poverty issue for me...

Posted by Ta-Nehisi Coates | July 11, 2008 10:10 AM

This is a really tough issue. On one hand, everything you say makes sense -- and needs to be said. It's crazy that it should even be controversial.

On the other hand, the baseline conservative response for virtually any problem facing black America is quickly becoming "fatherhood." The subject is going from a real policy issue to an easy excuse for anyone who's hostile to economic reform and antiracism, but doesn't want to say that outright.

And the more the Rush Limbaughs and Bill O'Reillys of the world use "fatherhood" as an excuse to shut down discussions on other policies, the less talking about the issue is going to do any good. In 2014 or whatever, when Obama's trying to pass some legislation that primarily benefits poor black folks, expect all of the conservatives to rush forward and call him a hypocrite for daring to try to tackle social problems before magically fixing the fatherhood issue.

None of that is to say it isn't an issue that deserves to be talked about. But there are some pretty big reasons why it may not be wise to dwell on it, y'know?

Posted by NS | July 11, 2008 10:29 AM

Ta-Nehisi:

I have been following your blog for quite some time but have never felt compelled to comment. As a young black woman who has never known her biological father, I feel you. As a young black woman whose step-father declared that if my mother ever left him (which she did) he would never pay child support (which he didn't), I feel you!

I do not mention this to invoke any pity from anyone because I feel that watching my mother rear four children practically by herself has not only made me a stronger woman, but also shown the five of us how important it is for family to stick together. (And my older brother taking the lead in showing us a "father figure".) I would assume that one could view that as a positive outcome to a negative situation.

I dont know if you would call this a negative consequence, but because of your own personal experiences and mine too, I relate to your mother's reasoning behind dating your father. I relate to those teenage girls in high school who wanted a boyfriend but subconsciously depended on him for some sort of male guidance. It was not until I got to college that I realized this. Mary J. Blige wrote a song that speaks directly to this: "Father in You". ( http://www.lyrics007.com/Mary%20J.%20Blige%20Lyrics/Father%20In%20You%20Lyrics.html ). Also, Lupe Fiasco's "He said, She said." ( http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/lupefiasco/hesayshesay.html )

My anecdote has a point. The absence of black fathers in black households is something that needs to be addressed. It is NOT generational; it is cyclical! Ta-Nehisi's mother is the generation before mine and it happened to her. I am one of those friends that Ta-Nehisi grew up with who didn't know where their fathers were, what they were doing, or just straight up didn't know him. My friends are having children and although I would love to think that their children's fathers will always be there, I already know some who have dipped out.

I am curious. . . why all the defensiveness from some black men? If this doesn't speak about you, why the anger, why the outrage? I am only speaking of the black fatherhood issue. And what do you, as men, see the role of a woman is in helping to better support a black father?

Just a thought: if black men were given this "nod," would it encourage more brothas to get out and handle their business? And who would be qualified to give this "recognition" for all your hard work to where it actually means something to you?

Posted by kato | July 11, 2008 10:49 AM

Sorry, Ta-Nehisi, not what I meant. I was thinking about the "laziness" comments Alexander referenced, and the irony of them coming from people with no experience of actual work. Not that I have a lot of room to talk. The only manual labor I do these days is recreational.

I spent a little time just out of college running ropes courses for the Boy Scouts, and they talked about "the positive use of peer pressure." That's a hard thing to bring to bear when most of the peer group has absent fathers themselves, but that's what's so annoying about the Karl Malones of the world.

"Your children are either the center of your life or they're not."
-- Calvin Trillin

Posted by MikeT | July 11, 2008 1:03 PM

Ta-Nehisi: You have my 100% support on this one. Not only am I an African-American woman scarred from a absent dad, I'm also an African-American woman essentially stuck cleaning up behind this same dad - who never seems to have grown up, who's personal habits have him facing eviction, and who's longterm drug use have him with the health of an 80 year old man, while he's only a little over 60. I too grew up watching the AIDS/Crack epidemic - its harshest toll was on women, actually. Absent fathers have long been a reality - now all of a sudden, the mothers were absent too - not physically, but mentally. And so many of the single dads today are born of that era - they stood up when women fell apart.

And for all of that - there are still far too few fathers on the job. I really resent this idea that we can't talk about this stuff. We freaking LOVED Bill Clinton for speaking out on stuff like this. We lobbied George Bush to speak out about the problem of HIV for black women. But when a man who knows personally, first hand, the harsh reality of an absent father, and who works in the community hardest hit by absentee fatherism, speaks directly to that reality - all of a sudden it's hatin' time.

I'm not feelin it. And the vicious manner in which Jesse expressed himself - not just the crude language, but the crude body language - has caused me to permanently lose respect, or even liking, for Jesse Jackson.

QT

Posted by QueenTiye | July 11, 2008 1:56 PM

"I've been pretty clear about my policy preferences. I want us to take another look at our drug laws. I want the EITC extended to noncustodial parents. I want us to take a hard look at our shocking rates of incarceration, particularly for young black males. But I don't want those policy positions--even for a second--to confuse folks about where I stand on the issue of black fathers. If there isn't a single policy change in the next fifty years, there will never ever be any excuse for a father to walk out on a child."

This is a very solid takedown of the false dichotomy put forth by conservatives and libertarians not just on black fatherhood, but on a host of issues: that you either believe economic and social conditions can cause problems, or you believe in "personal responsibility."

Of course, there's nothing contradictory about believing that a lot of crime happens because of poverty, and still believing that criminals should be locked up. Conservatives want to play it off like liberals are saying the criminal shouldn't be locked up if he can come up with a good sob story--but no one's proposing that. What we're saying (or what I'm saying anyway) is lock the criminal up, then move on to policy measures that will put the next guy at a lower risk of making a bad decision.

Posted by Jake H. | July 11, 2008 2:24 PM

To echo many of your commenters, I, too am a (25yrold) black female who grew up apart from her biological father. And my sense when I was growing up was that this was widespread within the black community; too many of my own friends had similar experiences to mine. I'm thankful for my stepfather, who essentially helped my mother raise me, and gifted me with the experience of feeling estranged from one father, but still growing up with a different, positive father.

Consequently, I have always felt this conflict where I bristle from Bill Cosby-like message because they appear condescending, but I also agree with many of his points. I am tired of unconscionable behavior from men in general in regards to their kids. I've noticed that in black churches, the Mother's Day sermon is often a praise song to strong motherhood; the Father's Day sermon is a scolding. That saddens me.

I agree wholeheartedly with you that a change in policy is essential. As I see it, child support laws are inadequate and dangerous because they are open to exploitation. My debates and arguments with (male) peers about child support usually begins with them protesting it; I believe that our current culture emphasizes monetary child support instead of encouraging child support in all its facets. The threat of jail time for delinquent payments does not seem like the best solution, but I can't think of any viable solution that does justice to the true victims: children.

Two-faced, political, or not, Obama's speech on fatherhood echoed my sentiments and the sentiments of sermon I heard from another black man on Father's Day. Take care of your kids, keep the government out your biz.

Posted by dara tafakari | July 11, 2008 2:56 PM

As I white Jewish 29yo, with 2 parents who didn't do drugs and made sure I knew it wasn't okay to get locked up, I have to say that the talk about what can and cannot be said in front of "others" rings framiliar to me.

The whole concept of a "shanda fer de goyim" or an embarrassment for the Jews in front of the gentiles, has been a powerful force in Jewish circles, particularly in 20th century America and it always struck me as BS. No group in America, no matter who it is, should have to worry about how the others are going to react.

I hope blogs like yours continue to speak about uncomfortable truths as you see them in your community. It's one of the only places well-intentioned upper middle class white folks like myself are gonna hear first hand accounts and learn what it was like for our peers who grew up in Baltimore or the Bronx or wherever during the 80s/90s when crack ruled and Black "leaders" were still calling for more police and mandatory minimum sentences to solve the problem. (I'm looking at you, Congressman Rangel!)

Posted by Dan Goldman | July 11, 2008 3:14 PM

What I wonder is, adjusting for the incarceration rate of black men, is whether there is a significant statistical difference between paternal absenteeism between whites and blacks?

I've loved two women in my life, Mr. Coates. Both of them were white. Both also suffered from poor and generally absent fathers. One of their mothers had to spend a year secretly copying her father's documents because he was concealing assets with the intent of escaping child support and alimony were they to get divorced.

Paternal absenteeism seems to me to be a phenomenon which crosses racial boundaries. It may be more noticeable in black communities because of the higher general level of poverty. But it is also more noticeable because we have a rather unfortunate regular national dialog on "What's wrong with Black America."

I'm not saying that I agree with Jackson. But I do think that I know quite a few white men who ought to be getting lectured by Sen. Obama just as much.

Posted by James Feldman | July 11, 2008 4:04 PM

James,

This is VERY MUCH an open question. We do know that black women have a higher rate of out of wedlock birth--but that isn't the same as not having a father. Furthermore the out of wedlock birthrate is even higher for Latinos than it is for blacks or whites, but I don't hear much about the need for Latino fathers to be more responsible. I do wonder, if you could adjust for household wealth also, how much of a difference would be there.

That said, my perspective emerges from living around black folks and dealing with impact of fathers on the lam. It doesn't mean that the same thing doesn't happen in white communities also.

Posted by Ta-Nehisi Coates | July 11, 2008 4:22 PM

"This is a very solid takedown of the false dichotomy put forth by conservatives and libertarians not just on black fatherhood, but on a host of issues: that you either believe economic and social conditions can cause problems, or you believe in "personal responsibility.""

-- Yep. It's completely possible to think that both individuals and broader social forces play some role here. No contradiction at all.

I think one useful way to think about this point is to ask yourself: who are you talking to, and what decision do they confront? If you are talking to, say, an audience of men who had skipped out on their kids, talking about individual responsibility would make most sense, and talking about socioeconomic conditions might seem like an invitation to them to shirk their own responsibility. Because, from the point of view of the choices they have to make, their own responsibility is more relevant; socioeconomic forces are just sort of there, hard for them to control.

By contrast, when I read e.g. op-eds in elite newspapers that talk as though there's a dichotomy between thinking individuals are responsible and thinking society is, and that we should go with holding individuals responsible, I think: one primary audience here is policy-makers. Some of them might be deadbeat dads, but that's incidental. And getting, say, the person in charge of setting federal jobs policies in urban areas to believe that absent fathers are solely the result of those fathers' bad choices is, for my money, every bit as much an evasion and a invitation to irresponsibility as telling a guy who skipped out on his kid that it's all society's fault.

Posted by hilzoy | July 11, 2008 4:36 PM

"I do wonder, if you could adjust for household wealth also, how much of a difference would be there."

If we adjust for household wealth, we ought to also adjust for legally compelled child support. I would wager that with greater wealth, there is a greater likelihood of being successfully sued for child support, since more money equals more lawyers. I'm not sure there is a significant moral difference between having a dad who doesn't pay child support and one who is forced to by a judge (although I'm sure there is a practical difference on the affect in the child's environment).

Posted by James Feldman | July 11, 2008 4:53 PM

No your right. But doesn't more wealth also mean BETTER lawyers? Just curious...

And Mike I got you. Sorry about the mistake.

Posted by Ta-Nehisi Coates | July 11, 2008 5:17 PM

Ta-Nehisi:

I'm sure more wealth means better lawyers, but I do think that simply being able to get a lawyer at all is an important aspect. Even a few hundred dollars a year in child support would probably make a big difference in Anacostia, but it simply isn't enough money to justify any lawyer's time.

I don't mean to make a big issue out of this; I understand and respect that whether it is a particular problem of the black community or a general societal problem, it is still perfectly sensible for black people to be particularly concerned of the issue as it affects black communities. But it strikes me that beyond the obvious issue of incarceration rates, that perhaps one reason why this problem has been seemingly intractable in black communities is because the cause isn't particular to black men at all.

Posted by James Feldman | July 11, 2008 5:38 PM

Obama's comments didn't bother me because he sounded just like my dad, who raised me - not for extra credit but because it's just what a man does, period.

Posted by glory | July 11, 2008 5:57 PM

I didn't have a problem with what Obama said on Father's Day. I wonder what would have been the reaction if he had done what his critics said to do: Just go around and give a ' You Go, Brother', to all the Black men handling their business, and ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in the room. The effects of Fatherlessness in the Black community isn't small. It's obvious. We have prisons full of Black men who share 2 basic common traits: Fatherlessness and Illiteracy. I'm not making this up. We have young women getting pregnant by older predator men, or being involved in the wrong relationship due to the effect of fatherlessness on our women.

These are not imaginary. And it's not marginal either.

This is real, and the reality of it is, unlike White people, most Black folk live around one another (across various economic strata) - so, the PROBLEMS that manifest itself in our community, are seen by the community.

I know this is a global world, yeah yeah, but I'm Black and my concerns are the Black community. I don't really care what's going on in other communities. I get so sick and tired of folks who want to bring up ' well, they're doing it to'. Yeah, and so what. We have to get OURSELVES together.

Posted by rikyrah | July 12, 2008 12:37 AM

For the record, Jesse's "talking down to black people" remark only holds true if Jesse sees his opinion as somehow representative of over 30 million black people. But Jesse isn't "black people."
________________________________________________________

This is so tired. Jesse speaks from his experience as a Black man in America just like you do and whether he was "in touch" with the "day-to-day issues afflicting black folks" in the 80's and 90's he is on-point in directing the attention of the prospective president of the issues, the policies that he should be talking about in front of them (Black people) that will deal with their day-to-day issues the same way he (Barack) goes before AIPAC, halls, gyms, auditoriums and stadiums full of people who are not Black and "speaks up" to them.

That's his role. He's a politician; his job is to talk policy not some f-cked stereotypes. And yes, Black people do eat chicken and watermelon but that doesn't justify speaking in stereotypes which Obama is prone to do and is doing more than doing his job and treating Black people who support him the same way he treats everyone else.

Posted by Nquest | July 12, 2008 1:14 AM

I know this is a global world, yeah yeah, but I'm Black and my concerns are the Black community.
_____________________________________________

That excuse doesn't work. Barack Obama is not running to be the president of Black America, remember? So why are you approving of this kind of curious stereotype laden, Black specific rhetoric from him now?

I guess I should make an Obama Internalized Racism & Anti-Black Stereotype Wiki to keep track of the bs that comes out of his mouth.

Posted by Nquest | July 12, 2008 1:18 AM

Before people get too caught up in rhetoric Obama's speech did address all men and he specifically made a mention of fatherless Black children. It was not all about Black men. I'd also like to posit another take on this that was introduced at http://www.blackwomenblowthetrumpet.com blog. It's about how some Black women may be inadvertently discouraging participation of parenting by some of these men. It is extensive and a nice companion to this discussion.

Posted by sfsinger | July 12, 2008 2:39 AM

http://www.counterpunch.org/gray07112008.html

"Addressing a congregation at the Apostolic Church of God, one of Chicago's largest black churches, on Father's Day, Barack Obama said:

"Too many fathers are M.I.A., too many fathers are AWOL, missing from too many lives and too many homes. They have abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men."

This was his "Sister Souljah" moment. Just as Bill Clinton during his 1992 campaign tried to reassure whites that he wasn't too cozy with blacks by denouncing a rapper, Obama was appealing to whites by condemning his own.

Even so, I wasn’t surprised to hear him referred to black men as “boys.”

Obama has often taken to “playin’ blacks.” ...

Early in the campaign year, Obama used one of the oldest racial stereotypes in a speech to black South Carolina state legislators: "In Chicago, sometimes when I talk to the black chambers of commerce, I say, 'You know what would be a good economic development plan for our community would be if we make sure folks weren't throwing their garbage out of their cars'.” Translation; black people are dirty and lazy.

One would think getting money is a better plan.

Then, the day before the Texas primary, he let loose again, in a predominantly black venue: "Y'all have Popeyes out in Beaumont? I know some of y'all, you got that cold Popeyes out for breakfast. I know. That's why y'all laughing. ... You can't do that. Children have to have proper nutrition. That affects also how they study, how they learn in school." Translation; black people are fat, stupid and lazy.

How would people respond if John McCain (or any person of a different race, nationality or ethnicity) threw out stereotypes like these? What would we say if a white person had stood in the pulpit of a black church, or anywhere else for that matter, and referred to black men as “boys,” in any context?

But since it’s Obama, sounding like Bill Clinton before his fall from black grace, or Bill Cosby speaking out of his own personal pain, the change candidate’s remarks were met with hosannas mostly by a vapid, racist, white-dominated corporate media, the black people who say what their white bosses want to hear, and blacks and whites alike who shout amen even when Obama’s saying something plainly contradicted by their own life experiences.

It was no big surprise that after the speech those critical of Obama were dismissed “as out touch” with the new “post-racial” illusion. Bob Herbert of The New York Times appearing on MSNBC’s Hardball went so far as to say that anyone who disagreed with Obama’s Father’s Day admonition to black men was living in a racial “fog” of the past. Newspapers across the county affirmed the smear with headlines like “Obama tells black men to shape up” or “Obama speaks ‘inconvenient truth’ to black men” or “Obama calls black men irresponsible” or “He's saying things people don’t want to hear” - with the inference that truth was flowing from his tongue.

I saw no headline lead with the word "some" black men.

Playin’ folk on any day is bad enough. But, as a father, grandfather and a black person, I see playin’ black men on Father's Day as even more repulsive. The day is for honoring fathers. We don’t honor the vets on Veteran’s Day by pointing out those who choose not to fight, or the cowards, or even the enemy.

The Obama life narrative highlights that his dad abandoned him as a kid. So, maybe it’s his abandonment issues that he’s laying on the rest of us. That would explain why he kicked his father “under the bus” implying he had acted like a “boy” when he and his wife divorced each other. Was she acting like a “girl” at the time? It is as simple as one parent being good or a victim and the other a bad victimizer? And, what of the fact that both his mother and father remarried? Is it his wish that his mom and biological dad had remained unhappily married? Does he wish his half-sister had never been born? Is he against divorce? How does he feel about forced or even loveless marriages? Maybe he believes there should be a required economic declaration before a woman gives birth and that two signatures on paper are required before conception?

No doubt, there’s a difference between being a sperm donor and being a nurturing, involved parent. But you don’t have to share a living space with a child to have an influence on him or her. And you can share a living space and be a lousy father or mother. That’s life. I was very young when I first heard the phrase “staying together for the good of the kids.” As I grew I learned that oftentimes living arrangements between ex-lovers have to change for the good of the kids.
...

I was speaking to a single, black woman lawyer about my unease with the speech and she immediately went off on black men in general. Now, my lawyer friend is a smart, progressive person. She’s a former New York State prosecutor but I’ve never consciously deducted points from her humanity for her past employment choice. But in our conversation she threw out all the standard lines, “black men aren’t taking care of their kids,” and “they are sorry.” I countered by saying most social psychologists believe that an adolescent girl is more mature than an adolescent boy, so, who do we pin being the most irresponsible on? I asked her: If we believe that it is a woman’s right to chose whether or not to be a mother, then why should irresponsible black fathers be the sole point of Obama’s attack? And why should any aspect of black male-female relations be grist for the campaign mill?

What Obama’s "bash the black man" game leads to is an environment where black people – separate and not equal – is the issue.

Moreover, it passes on one of the lowest of all the smears and stereotypes: the lie that black men have no morals. It reinforces the white supremacists’ notion of blacks as irresponsible, overly sexual beasts; a notion that far too many black folk as well as white unwittingly buy into."

...

Posted by Alexander | July 12, 2008 7:44 AM

Meh, my point stands. Jesse ain't black people. He certainly ain't "black people" when he's going on Fox News which has about as much love for black people, as I have for Rush Limbaugh. He doesn't speak for 30 million people--when the polls open in November, then we'll see whether black folks feel that Obama is talking down to them. This game of media running to him like he's our spokesperson, and him willingly obliging is getting tired.

Furthermore, I see absolutely nothing "stereotypical" in asserting that black fathers need to be more involved in the lives of their kids. As someone else here said, Barack's message was the same one my father pushed when I was coming up. It's the same one that I push to my son. It's the same message that responsible black fathers push to their kids everyday. The same one that Ed O.G. kicked almost fifteen years ago. Is the message wrong? Or is it just wrong because white people were watching? I don't understand. We were all with it when Farrakhan called us to the Mall damn near 15 years ago. The message was basically the same. What's changed now?

More to the point, I'm just not clear on exactly what damage Barack is doing here. What is the long-term effect of all this? A few racist white people now get to say the dumb shit they were already thinking? So what. What's the damage? I'd argue there is way more damage in folks not seeing the varying strains of thought in our community, and assuming that we can all be summed up in Jena and Al Sharpton. That's a perspective too--but it isn't the only perspective.

As president, Barack's job is to push policy--got it. But he's also a black man. There is just no way I'm going to deny a black man, whose own father was a deadbeat, who spent much of his professional life organizing on the South Side, his right to speak as exactly that person on this issue.

P.S. It's fine to disagree with Obama's critique, but that Counterpunch piece seems like a massive overreach. Obama's really saying black people are "fat and lazy"? Really??

Posted by Ta-Nehisi Coates | July 12, 2008 7:55 AM

Its like the CounterPunch piece said (and I implied in my original post, if in a roundabout way),

"I saw no headline lead with the word "some" black men."

Yes, there are black men who are derelict in their duties has husbands/fathers. (Just like there are plenty of white men who are also derelict in their duties as husbands/fathers; odd that they never particularly get called out, but whatever).

You know, there are also black men who AREN'T derelict in their duties as husbands/fathers. There are those of us who work really hard to handle our business and watch out for our people. And we--at least, I--don't appreciate being painted on every occasion possible with the usual stereotypes of laziness, amorality, etc. Its all the same, just a different flavor. I just don't see much of a difference between the, "Black people are lazy, don't work, criminal" etc. etc. stereotypes and, "All black men aren't doing their jobs as men cause they don't care, too busy with crime, not man enough" stereotype.

Call out the people who deserve to be called out. But don't lump them in with the ones who are doing it right. And when you say, "Black men," that's an ALL ENCOMPASSING label.

And I'm not denying him anything; he can say/do whatever he wants obviously. But as a fellow grown black man who's dad was also a deadbeat, I feel like I can say that I ain't my dad, and not all black men are my dad, and I don't want to be lumped into the same category of jerk men--no matter what their color--who are like my dad.

Also, I don't think the CP piece is overreaching at all; I'm not a particular fan of being called, "boy" by any person, be they white or black. And I thought the trash from cars/fast food thing Obama talked of was just sorta stupid to associate with black people in particular (cause white people don't litter or go to Popeyes?).

Posted by Alexander | July 12, 2008 8:32 AM

Hey Ta-Nehisi. Thanks for mentioning my piece, but I think you miss the broader point of it. I don't think anyone was questioning Obama's right to give the speech. Important to note that Pbama has given that speech dozens of times (which is probably why he gave it that day, because of comfort level). The people who talked to me said it was specific to that day in that setting when the press (and middle America) was looking for him to distance himself permanently from Rev. Wright and Trinity. I really think their issue was that there were more effective ways to signal that break than doing that absent black father speech on father's Day.

But that was really just a smokescreen. The real issue is that that progressive crowd is not privy to Obama's strategic moves to win, and they (both black and white liberals) are wary of how far to the center a win for Obama has to go, and how much the strategy to win also will become how he governs. But those same people have also grafted their progressivism on to someone who has always at core been a centrist, or at least someone who looks at both sides first before choosing the liberal view - as opposed to knee jerk liberalism. That should be seen as a strength not a weakness.

This is really a case of Obama playing a running game and the liberal sideline screaming for him to throw more passes.

Posted by Eric Easter | July 12, 2008 9:34 AM

"This game of media running to him like he's our spokesperson, and him willingly obliging is getting tired."
_______________________________________________________

Then your beef it with the media and not Jesse. Why act like you're confused? Black people voted in large numbers when Jesse ran for president. So the November election argument is tired and bankrupt because it's not like Obama is "black people." Yet the media runs to him for a statement just like they do Jesse and Al. So either you diss Obama because of what the media does or you dropped this bogus argument.

It's like people have all this misdirect angst and, just like people love to scapegoat Black people in general, some people love to scapegoat Jesse (and Al).

If Obama was true to his concern (see P6) over Black fatherhood, then when the media came a calling, running to him for a statement as a "black leader" about Min. Farrakhan then he would have kept his mouth shut or been just as clear to talk about the problem with White folks. But, no. We all know what he did and given how he fed into and fell in line with what White folks think about Farrakhan and never at any time said anything about Min. Farrakhan's Million Man March or the Black men in Philadelphia, for that matter, in his "personal responsibility", "Black men need to take responsibility" rhetoric then his bs is bankrupt too.

At least Bill Cosby had the sense to recognize at least some people who were, in his opinion, doing something his Christian family wasn't. There's a reason why Farrakhan, no matter what you think about him, can tell Black men/fathers they need to take responsibility without the fall out the Cosby, Juan Williams and Obama create. We all know what it is.

Posted by Nquest | July 12, 2008 12:27 PM

stright to the point---i agree with everything whole heartedly. my parents split up when i was very young but my father remained, and still to this day remains in my life. i dont mean by way of paying child support. i mean by way of daily phone calls, overnite weekend visits, and church on sundays. at 29 i am now a mother of a 7 year old little boy and i could only pray that his father would be the father we both had. his story is similar. his father left when he was young. but he is the oldest of 4 siblings who are all 2 years apart and his parents didnt split until the youngest was at least 1. in the same breath this person who is the father of my child, all without blinking will claim to anyone who listens that he is a great father. he doesnt call, he only comes around every 6 months (birthday and christmas--and both empty handed), and barely pays child support. its to the point my son doesnt even want to see his father, and hes only 7. when i tell people my story it astounds me how many people will say 'yall women need to make better choices in who yall have these babies by' like people dont change. when i met my sons father he had a job, a car and his own apartment--pretty good for a 20 year old. he was sweet, kind, and caring. though we werent dating long he seemed to have potential. that is until i git pregnant. he dissappeared and i didnt see him again until 2 weeks after i had my son and i went to his job. since the beginning ive been trying to establish a relationship between father and son and as of todayit still hasnt happened. quite honestly, i dont see this situation dissolving itself any time soon. ive offered family counseling and visits to his father and he doesnt follow through with any of it. my father went through a period in life that must have been so bad he started doing drugs. and through all that, even at his lowest point,when he felt he had nothing left he made sure he at least called his baby girl. my sons father doesnt want to work, instead he finds some poor disallusioned female to support him. in fact i dont think hes ever worked a real job in his life. recently i asked him, if something happened to me, do you think you would be able to take care of our son? and again without batting an eye he replied, 'i honestly think i could'. WTF???? he cant even support himself, let alone a child. i explained to him that i need him to better himself, not for me and not for anyone else. but for his son. if something should happen to him, he has no SSI and no life insurance to secure my sons future. he doesnt realize hes already lost 7 years that he cant get back. when is he going to wake. i have another issue with public and government assistance. they seem to favor those who want help but arent willing to help themselves vs. those who need help. ive applied for food stamps several time only to be denied. the one time they approved my application they gave me $10 a month? i was denied WIC. how can you deny my child food? i was denied daycare vouchers. i know several females that are perfectly able to work more than 1 job at a time if need be but they instead they have baby after baby after baby, and are permanatley affixed to the government tit. but i work 2 jobs and cant get food for my baby. so i agree black men need to step up to the plate but the black mothers are equally to blame. the lifestyles they live is being absorbed by the children and ultimatley repeated.

black men, black women, black people as a whole need to wake up. our parents and grandparents probably never thought they would see the day a black man would be in office. lets live out their dreams and make them reality.

Posted by dainarra | July 15, 2008 10:01 AM

Suppose you are called into the American
Establishment while poor.

Your parents are dead. You live on $2.17 a day in Charles Village with pornographic propaganda as the price of the ticket. You are taught that dioxin is safe. And you are taught that the price of other than disrespect by a cash system is adultery or else mistheology.

Any person unsure of their place among black and white, be they Hebrew, Nahuatl, Arab or Sorb, is likely to hear racial epithets, classwhit epithets, and gaybaiting epithets IF straight. Jesse Jackson failed the middle club in his notion that anyone beyond black and white was olive blind but he was himself oppressed by the white racists who control supply for drug trade raws and by an intellectual establishment that believes the content of character is chimps' rupiah.

Posted by Jfnu Plnu | July 15, 2008 12:43 PM