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Some thoughts on poverty, black folks and libertarianism

01 Jul 2008 11:07 am

As I've said, there are certain things that I will never bend on--gay marriage, abortion, the war on drugs etc. I also hate demagogues and bullies, hence my general lukewarm feelings for race-based Affirmative Action, but utter disgust at people who want to use it to score points, while ignoring the broader context of preferences. I utterly despise people who make their living writing reports which disparage the pathology of the black poor, and yet spend no time talking with/living around/having a meal with actual black poor people.

But other things, I'm less rigid on. I arrived in lovely Aspen last night for this Ideas festival. Later today, I will moderate a panel on race and politics, featuring Shelby Steele, Charles Kamasaki, and Richard Thompson Ford. I'll report back on that later. But as for the trip, for most of it, when I wasn't admiring the shocking beauty of the Rockies or reeling over the majesty of "Heaven or Hell" ("So now we see him up in BoJangles/Stranglin a forty ounce, with ten G's worth of gold bangles/Diamonds, what, all up in his face/ With his man's mace, medallions the size of dinner plates" effing incredible), I kept mulling over this rather shocking blog post:

I know, far out in right-field. To put it as plainly as I can: I don't believe in a governmental attempt to engineer a substantively "fair" society through taxation.  I see taxation as a necessary evil to pay for those few social goods that private individuals cannot provide for themselves. And the mode of taxation, in my view, should be as simple and as market-friendly as possible and should treat citizens equally, irrespective of their incomes. I believe in formal equality and a very limited state, not substantive equality and the welfare state.

And:

I'm happy with the government then setting up programs to assist the poor, to provide better education for those at the bottom, safety-net healthcare and better policing. i.e. to gear spending toward social ends that might help the poor the most. These are measurable, practical goods. What I'm not happy with is the assumption that tax policy should really be about redistributing wealth, and engineering substantive economic outcomes. Yes, of course, at lower income levels, a 20 percent flat income tax will be more onerous proportionally than at higher incomes. So what? Why should that even concern a government that is not aiming to socially engineer more substantive equality? and the alternative - skewing taxes to target success - is an absurd set of incentives to put into a growing society.

Am I heartless? I hope not. I just don't believe that having a heart is what government should be about. It's what the rest of us should be about.

I'm not shocked that Andrew wrote this--I'm fairly familiar with his vaguely libertarian politics. I was more shocked by the baldness with which he expressed it. Anyway, my liberalism never originated in a belief that there were a cabal of white oligarchs conspiring to keep the black poor down. More likely, people just protect their interest. Because of how I came up, because I've lived around black poor and working folks all my life, my immediate sympathies are there, and always will be. But my sympathies are moral, or rather emotional, they aren't necessarily logical.

Part of that comes from growing up black in the 80s and 90s--the reason why there's such a liberal voting tilt among black folks is because America's primary organ of conservatism (the GOP) made a choice during my youth to embrace Buchananism, a 51-49 presidential strategy--with black folks necessarily among the 49. As I became politically aware, I made a simple calculus--any ideology whose agents would gleefully exploit America's original wound, could never be a place for me. It was a logical decision--but not a smart one. It meant that while I was always well equipped to do battle on race from a left perspective, and thus reasonably well equipped to do battle on, say, criminal justice, and even on abortion rights, my actual knowledge of the other poles of conservativism are incredibly weak.

I can explain to you why half of what the greater country says about black folks is often wrong. I can invoke history, culture, whatever. I'm built to talk about that. But can I really tell you why and how Bush ruined the economy? Do I really--in explicit detail--understand what has happend with housing market? I was anti-war, but did I really know there were no WMDs?

Anyway what interested me about Andrew's post was that it reflected a way of thinking, and a thesis, that couldn't be more alien to my entire orientation. He pretty plainly spelled out a worldview that I've long taken as the domain of the lecherous and the acquisitive. But I've been bothered lately by much of the reading I've done on government efforts to curb poverty. It's not the efforts themselves, that have bothered--most of them seem fairly smart--as much as the follow-through. We've debated Section 8 quite a bit here, and the thing that stuck with me most, at the end of the discussion, was the relative lack of government oversight. It's almost as if we expected to hand out vouchers and wash our hands of the projects. I've heard a lot about welfare reform, but very little about how it's affected poverty rates. My point is that I keep getting the distinct feeling that Americans, as Andrew suggested, don't actually want their government in the business of trying to pull people out of poverty in any sort of direct way. 

And this brings me back to an ugly question--Should they? Why? My deepest held belief about this country is that everyone deserves the right to compete. This is the real root of my gay marriage, abortion rights, war on drugs politics. Gay marriage offers economic benifits--well some. A world in which women don't have access to abortion, is a world where they are--again--dependent on the wealth and benevolence of men. Drug laws not only jail people for long periods of time (over what really is a religious issue) but then they mark them once they get out of prison. But after some sort of base level of competition is ensured, I don't know what I think.

I'm not entirely persuaded by Andrew. His world sounds like Thunderdome to me. And, as I said, my handle on economics is basically too weak to draw any hard conclusions. Also, as I said up top, I don't really have the option of giving my heart to Ron Paul.

Comments (16)

Well, to the extent that poverty is racialized in this country, I think the government has a huge responsibility in pulling people out of it because government policy explicitly put them into poverty.

I'm not just talking about slavery. I'm talking about racial covenants, the creation of the slums, and their immediate replacement with substandard segregated public housing. I'm talking about the early exclusion of African-Americans from FHA loans, one of the largest instruments of wealth creation in American history. I'm talking about the continuing disparities in quality between majority-black and majority-white public schools.

Wealthy folks have consistently received serious governmental largess in the form of legal privileges, subsidies, tax loopholes, and targeted infrastructure spending. The bigger a business gets (ie: the more wealthy people it spawns), the more government help it gets. People hire lobbyists for a reason, you know? The phrase "too big to fail" means something very specific.

I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with government policy that happens to make people rich. Sometimes that is in the best interest of the nation as a whole (it's really unlikely that our railroads would have been nearly as well-developed without the combination of monopolies and freedom from liability we developed for them). But this is definitely where the libertarian theory breaks down for me. After hundreds of years of extremely interventionist policy that has made a subset of Americans very wealthy, suddenly we're supposed to call a time out?

One (of many) things he chooses to ignore:

That up until a certain point and to various degrees, the government (on the local, state, and federal levels) has been a force in sustaining inequality. So, why not have the government do things in the other direction for a sustained period of time?


Mr. Coates, Mr. Sullivan's libertarianism is a pose more than anything. It is designed to fit his sexual politics and his repellent views on race, intelligence, and biology. Just scratch the surface of his writings and you will find a gay man who thinks blacks are less intelligent than everyone else and aren't worth the bother because most of them are beyond help anyway. He is just a hipper Steve Sailer.

i know i'm off-topic but thanks for your support of gay marriage. looking forward to your marriage post. i'm pretty much anti-marriage, but i chose to get (gay-)married anyway, partly because so many people were so bizarrely opposed to my having that choice. and to lean more on-topic, some of our greatest advocates in the state leg were black progressives who emphatically linked gay marriage to the civil rights struggle--though i know this is controversial.

Mr. Coates,

The problem with Sullivan's argument is that its based on the false assumption that there is some sort of "neutral" tax policy and that a flat tax rate (by definitiion regressive) is somehow less interventionist that a progressive tax rate (or any other system for that matter).

He writes "What I'm not happy with is the assumption that tax policy should really be about redistributing wealth, and engineering substantive economic outcomes"

Any tax policy redistributes wealth, the policy Sullivan advocates (a flat tax) redistributes it upward, traditional liberals would rather redistribute it downward. Sullivan is less than honest because what it seems he's really not happy with is a tax policy that might serve to redistribute wealth away from people like him.

So the question is not the one that Sullivan proposes, i.e. should the government be in the business of "engineering substantive economic outcomes"? That's what governments do, the question is what should those outcomes be, and if we are to remain at all true to what I think you and I know I believe should be the goals of this country then the tax code needs to be based on an effort to create a more just rather than a less just society. The particulars of how that might be achieved might need an economist, the general idea is easily understandable to all of us.

I'm not a (professional) economist, but I do play one on TV (well, have an undergrad degree and two years doing research at the Fed). Anyway, I certainly am no fan of Bush's, but I don't think it's fair to say that he ruined the economy.

First, I would argue that the economy is not ruined but rather going through a downturn. That's the nature of the business cycle--we had a recession in 2000, one in the early 1990s, another in the 1980s. Of course this one isn't over, but so far it hasn't been as bad as any of those (we still have not had a quarter with negative GDP growth).

Second, a president's influence on the economy is rather limited, and certainly more limited than that of the Fed (who likely bears the brunt of the blame for this recession, by leaving rates too low for too long--especially compared to the ECB--during the last recession).

Overall, actually, I'd say Bush has done an okay job on the economy--certainly a far better job there than on foreign policy (disaster, obviously) or social policy (not a disaster from the policy sense, but certainly his polarizing electoral strategy did not help move us forward). Granted, he has done nothing to face up to the looming fiscal challenges, but none of Congress, Obama, McCain, and Clinton (either one) has been any better on what is admittedly quite a tough issue.

Granted, Bush's tax cuts were not fiscally responsible, given that they were not matched by spending cuts. But if anything, they have helped the economy in the short run, albeit at a significant long-term price.

And FWIW, as a libertarian, I personally do not object to progressive tax rates. To the extent that we require government to provide some essential services, we have to pay for them somehow, and some folks are flat incapable of paying (or capable of paying less). I'd argue that we have too many tax rates, and especially that we have too many distorting and complicating deductions and credits, but those are separate issues from progressivity...

A Friend wrote: 'He is just a hipper Steve Sailer.'

You know, I think that phrase summarizes Sullivan perfectly.

Well done.

I'd second bottomofthe9th on the point about too many tax rates. The conservative complaint that the tax system is too complex has a good progressive angle: the opacity of our tax system makes it hard to understand and produce fair outcomes. Of course their argument for a flat tax is also about redistributing wealth upwards, but they're right that such an opaque system makes small businesses less efficient, causes all kinds of waste, and tilts the system toward huge corporations and the ultra-rich with a small army of tax lawyers. Maybe something like a flat-ish tax with a progressive slant is in order.

I don't think I understand the heart of what Sullivan is saying.
Providing education, health-care and good policing for the poor sounds fine to me, but if libertarians are okay with, for instance, providing medical coverage to everyone and paying for everyone to go to state schools, then what makes someone a libertarian rather than a liberal?
Frankly, Sullivan's focus on taxation makes him seem pedantic and immoral. I'm going to have to agree with "TC" on this one, charging everyone 20% of their income is in no sense "neutral". Why not charge everyone $23,000 a year instead? That would be a real flat tax. Of course, no one in their right mind would support this, because it's just morally wrong.
I think the following quote from his blog post is pretty telling:
"This, of course, is my core disagreement with Obama who does indeed have a notion that government has a right and a duty to take money away from those whom he believes can "afford" it and give it to those who "deserve" it."
Why the scare quotes? Is there any meaningful sense in which millionaires can't "afford" their taxes, or poor people don't "deserve" to get medical treatment, a decent education and to keep enough of their income to have a reasonable life?

Sullivan's a conservative. A pro-gay rights, anti-Bush conservative, but still a conservative. And this is what conservatives believe.

I think the notion of a "level playing field" is the crux here. (I'm also someone with liberal politics who enjoys reading Andrew Sullivan.) If you think about it in the abstract, assuming a level playing field, the idea of a flat tax isn't necessarily repulsive. People are different - some people really are lazy, some people are driven and hard working or innovative enough to add lots of value to society - and in that imaginary world with a level playing field, I can see the argument that there's no reason why the ants should be forced to burden themselves with the grasshoppers by the state.

OK.

Back to reality now.

There just ain't no level playing field.

In fact, thousands of years of effort have gone into digging and earthmoving and reconstructing that playing field to make it as slanted as possible.

It's more of a "playing wall."

It seems kind of pointless to talk about what society should do once we have a level playing field, because any prospect of anything even close to level is far off in the misty future.

I reckon we should just reconcile ourselves to reality as it is - precipitously slanted - and deal with it. If sometime in the future we do manage to level off our field, we can have a debate about the flat tax then. Frankly I think the positive change necessary to get there would be so great that at that point it wouldn't be a bitter or contentious debate.

"The conservative complaint that the tax system is too complex has a good progressive angle: the opacity of our tax system makes it hard to understand and produce fair outcomes. Of course their argument for a flat tax is also about redistributing wealth upwards, but they're right that such an opaque system makes small businesses less efficient, causes all kinds of waste, and tilts the system toward huge corporations and the ultra-rich with a small army of tax lawyers. Maybe something like a flat-ish tax with a progressive slant is in order."

Um: no. The complexity of the tax code has nothing to do with its progressivity. Simplifying the tax code would mean cutting out the various deductions that people can make. State your income, consult the tax code to see what you pay, pay it: see how easy? Of course, a lot of people like some of these deductions (just try cutting out the mortgage deduction), but many of them could be gotten rid of, imho.

Whether or not the rate people pay at all levels of income is the same is just a different matter entirely. You could have a completely flat tax with zillions of deductions: complicated. You could have a sharply progressive tax code with no deductions: simple.

Personally, my reasons for supporting a progressive tax code are simple. First, there is no "neutral" tax code. Second, there is no possible way to quantify such things as: what each of us gets from the existence of a government, which might allow us to construct some alternate measure of "what we owe". So there is nothing that serves as a sort of default, "fair" tax code, every deviation from which has to be specially justified. We all need to pay for the care and maintenance of our society, but there's no privileged answer to the question how this should be divvied up.

That being the case, why on earth not tax those who can best afford it more heavily? Especially since, in the normal course of things, they are also those most likely to be able to use political power to their own ends, and so are likely to be favored in other ways. I mean, given a choice between putting a heavier tax burden on (a) someone making $30,000 a year and trying to keep his or her family fed, and (b) someone making $150,000 a year and trying to figure out how to keep his or her kids in private school, I choose (b), and this choice seems pretty obvious to me.

I agree with Hilzoy. But I want to add what I think is the essential Andrew Sullivan flaw: his inability to see past his own privileges. As just one example, take his passionate criticism of the US Goverment's stand on HIV+ immigration. He's dead on here, but seems completely incapable of noticing that there's an entire system of prejudices, random 'disqualifications,' and other problems with immigration in the US. He praises pharma companies for keeping him alive but is unable or unwilling to acknowledge that pharma has helped set up and maintain a system where many people-- even people who 'work hard'-- cannot get those drugs without undergoing a demoralizing and humiliating effort (if at all).

He's an interesting and articulate writer, but I often lose patience with his unwillingness to look beyond his quaint P-Town backyard.

I guess I'm in the minority here, but I don't get why people don't understand that those of us that are financially successful and thus subject to significantly higher tax bills want to keep as much of what we have earned, just like any other rational human being?

Since I earned this dough, whether I prefer to use the rewards of my work to send my kids to private school, have a house with solid gold toilets, give it to my favorite charity, or invest it is my business - it's perverse to think that the more income you've produced the stronger the claim the state has on it. People that earn lots of money generate far more economic activity through investing or spending it than the state ever will by paying government drones to take it away, redistribute it, and then tax it again.

Arclight, I'm financially successful. I'm not interested in giving it away and becoming poor, but I do think a progressive tax system is a good thing. I have two reasons, one personal, one systemic.

I submit to you that your last marginal dollar spent by you does very little for you in the way of increasing your happiness. I know that's true for me. I'm safe, warm, dry, well-fed, and as nicely turned out as I want to be. And I have lots of toys. Too many really. My happiness comes mostly from my relationships, and from the satisfaction of doing work that needs to be done, and wouldn't get done if I didn't do it.

Many temptations come my way in the form of status competition. Winning these status competitions can get very important to me, but they don't give me much in the way of happiness. And that last marginal dollar spent, as often as not, is spent on a status competition.

Furthermore, there's a treadmill. No matter how much money I've got, there's always something I can't have. I've got a Porsche, but I don't have a Lamborghini. I've got a Ferrari, but I don't have a Lear Jet. I've got a Lear Jet, but somebody else has a 737. Even Bill Gates can't have everything he wants, since one of the things he wants is Google.

The systemic reason is that I fear oligarchy. Great disparities of wealth almost never inhabit the same country as democracy. Except you know, that famous creature "we had elections and I got 99.8% of the vote." We are headed in that direction, wealth-wise.

Arclight and fellow-travelers think they live in isolation from the rest of the world. This is a question of what kind of society you wish to live in. Arclight prefers the atomized variety, at least when it comes to government assistance to those who are not as successful as Arclight. Other kinds of assistance to the well-off are, of course, just peachy, for the Arclights of the world don't bitch about them as much.

No-one wants to take away your solid-gold toilet. But stop deceiving yourself about your "success": You had help, from all kinds of sources, I am sure. You are not an island, as that song goes, I believe.

Doctor Jay, thanks for your thoughts...'not arclight' you make a whole lot of wrong assumptions that reveal more about your ideology than mine.

Anyway, I'm not actually into status competition - I live in an average house in a lower-middle class neighborhood that is overwhelmingly black. My car is not a head-turner and many of my neighbors drive nicer ones. I don't have a ton of toys - hell, I still have the one and only TV I've ever owned, a 21-inch Sony from the early 1990s, and I don't even subscribe to cable. So wanting to keep more of my money does not have anything to do with visible status symbols - it's because I like the security of having it to provide for my family and in case I really need it, like if my business has a bad year which is always a possibility for those of us that don't work for big stable companies or the government. I take a lot more risk than the average person to earn my compensation.

I did not take issue with progressive taxation - I take issue with the attitude that reaching further into people's pockets to fund various government programs is the way to reward hard work and improve the lot of the less fortunate. It is not - the US is not as wealthy and powerful as it is because of redistributionist government policies. It is because it historically has offered the most inviting economic climate for enterprising people and businesses, whose success in turn produces most of the nation's economic activity and jobs.

Raising taxes on income and investment is not a roadmap to greater prosperity - it's a brake on the economy and the effects are primarily felt by those that economic liberals purportedly want to help.