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	<updated>2009-06-08T03:37:25Z</updated>
	<title>Comments for <![CDATA[Why Ta-Nehisi isn&apos;t a &quot;Black Nerd&quot;]]></title>
	
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		<id>tag:ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com,2008://31.41336</id>
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		<link rel="service.edit" type="application/atom+xml" href="http://ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com/mt-42/mt-atom.cgi/weblog/blog_id=8/entry_id=5008" title="Why Ta-Nehisi isn&amp;apos;t a &amp;quot;Black Nerd&amp;quot;" />
		<published>2008-07-09T12:42:36Z</published>
		<updated>2008-08-04T16:51:13Z</updated>
		<title><![CDATA[Why Ta-Nehisi isn&apos;t a &quot;Black Nerd&quot;]]></title>
		<summary>A reader sent me this blog post which waxes disdainfully about the a black community seemingly obsessed with cars and clothes, while showing no regard for education. Just for good measure, we get a nice dose of black immigrant snobbism...</summary>
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			<name></name>
			
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			<![CDATA[<p>A reader sent me this blog post which <a target="_blank" href="http://davidadewumi.com/2008/07/06/why-are-black-nerds-so-unpopular/">waxes disdainfully</a> about the a
black community seemingly obsessed with cars and clothes, while showing
no regard for education. Just for good measure, we get a nice dose of
black immigrant snobbism ("Realistically, I should have used the term
‘African nerds,’ because
almost all of the smartest black people I know were either born in
Africa or are first-generation Africans."). Of course like all
prejudice, the commenter mistakes his limited experience to be somehow
universal for some 30 million black people. </p><p>
But before I go further, an observation--I'm totally with folks who say we need to stop blaming the white man, and <a target="_blank" href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/26/AR2007102601807.html">have done my part</a>
to take on Sharptonism. But it always amazes me to see those same
people turn around and blame a broader "black culture" for the larger
problems of our black community. This strikes me as no better than "White Man-ism," because it still undermines the case for individual
strength and effort. A blame paradigm is a blame paradigm, whether its
blaming black people or white people. In my house, when I got bad
grades--which was often--my parents would slapped the black off me if I
blamed a D on "the white man." But they'd have done the same thing if
I'd blamed my D "on a culture of pathology amongst black people." To
me, it's fundamentally weak to blame others for a personal lack of
success.</p><p>
Which brings us to this Black Nerd posting. It begins by positing a
strict dichotomy between popularity and intelligence, i.e. if you're
black and smart, you necessarily won't be popular. The writer
acknowledges that this same dichotomy exists among white people--indeed
his whole article takes off from a white guy musing over why white
nerds aren't popular. But like most Black Cultural Patholgists, the
writer simply leaps past the context and into a meditation on the
intellectual savagery of black folks.</p><p>
</p>]]>
			<![CDATA[
<p>
First, lets dispense with the central claim--do black people value
education less than whites? Two studies by economists help us out with
this. <a target="_blank" href="http://www.hoover.org/publications/ednext/3212736.html">The first</a> by Roland Fryar, is probably the most reputable (though
still problematic) study of the whole "acting white" phenomenon. The
study concludes that black kids--like all kids--do tend to lose
popularity as they do better in school. Meanwhile, black kids tend to
lose popularity at a greater rate than white kids when not in majority
black schools. While this is a concern, it doesn't really work as an
explanation for the achievement gap, because the majority of black kids
attend majority black schools, where, according to Fryar, there really
is no difference between how black kids and white kids see intelligence
and popularity. </p><p>It should also be added that to the extent that their
is a "acting white" phenomenon, Fryar's study shows that it is at its
worse, not among blacks, but among Hispanics. The <a href="http://www.slate.com/id/2181822">second study</a> addresses whether blacks, on balance, spend more of
thier resources on material things, as opposed to education. The answer
is yes--but it isn't for the reasons that the BCPers think. It turns
out that difference has a lot more to do with the wealth distribution
in the black and white communities, than actual value differences.</p><p>The writer of the blog post seems like a fairly sharp cat. But he joins a chorus of otherwise "fairly sharp cats" who seem to believe that black folks are uncomplicated and can be understood simply by sitting on one's stoop and taking notes. From a personal perspective, I'm tired of defending black folks against people who can't even be bothered to look past thier own prejudices and experiences. That includes other black people I've got no use for that small portion of us who've made it somewhere and now want to spend our days sneering at people who weren't so lucky. </p><p>I'm not a black nerd because I'm not a black snob, because I have no desire to look down from my perch of quasi-success and sneer at those scraping and struggling below. I loved X-Men andf D&amp;D. I think Robotech is the epic of our time. But I think Michael Jordan's flu-game, Emmitt Smith running through the Giants with a seperated shoulder, the instrumental to Wu-Tang Clan's "Triumph" is a glorious as anything I ever came from the pen of Chris Claremont. I'm not a black nerd because I wish I'd paid more attention when the kids were shooting the basketball into a milk-crate. I wish I'd learned to dribble between my legs, and I'll make sure my son does. I'm not a black nerd because I believe in being multi-lingual, because I hope to understand that knowing--and loving--Ebonics, doesn't preclude you from learning proper English.</p><p><strong>UPDATE</strong>: Commenter Eric basically nails it:</p><div class="comment-content">
			<p></p><blockquote><p>
	The African (or Caribbean) vs.
	American black comparison seems particularly unfair to me, because it
	cherrypicks two distinct populations. It compares someone with the
	motivation and intelligence (and financial resources) to immigrate with
	an average American. Smart people are going to be successful in any
	context, and average people will go on being average. There's plenty of
	average Africans in Africa, but they're there and not here because they
	immigrating is difficult.
	
	</p><p>Seriously though, D&amp;D and comic books? Totally a nerd. The blackness is irrelevant.
</p></blockquote><p>True on all counts. I'd love to compare some native African-Americans with some native Nigerians and see how the comparison goes. For more on this check out Malcolm Gladwell's absolutely brilliant reported essay on native <a target="_blank" href="http://www.gladwell.com/1996/1996_04_29_a_black.htm">American blacks vs. immigrant blacks</a>:</p><blockquote><p>
	things changed when I left for Toronto to attend
	college. This was during the early nineteen-eighties, when West Indians
	were immigrating to Canada in droves, and Toronto had become second
	only to New York as the Jamaican expatriates' capital in North America.
	At school, in the dining hall, I was served by Jamaicans. The infamous
	Jane-Finch projects, in northern Toronto, were considered the Jamaican
	projects. The drug trade then taking off was said to be the Jamaican
	drug trade. In the popular imagination, Jamaicans were--and
	are--welfare queens and gun-toting gangsters and dissolute youths. In
	Ontario, blacks accused of crimes are released by the police eighteen
	per cent of the time; whites are released twenty-nine per cent of the
	time. In drug-trafficking and importing cases, blacks are twenty-seven
	times as likely as whites to be jailed before their trial takes place,
	and twenty times as likely to be imprisoned on drug-possession charges.
							</p><p class="body">After
	I had moved to the United States, I puzzled over this seeming
	contradiction--how West Indians celebrated in New York for their
	industry and drive could represent, just five hundred miles northwest,
	crime and dissipation. Didn't Torontonians see what was special and
	different in West Indian culture? But that was a naïve question. The
	West Indians were the first significant brush with blackness that
	white, smug, comfortable Torontonians had ever had. They had no bad
	blacks to contrast with the newcomers, no African-Americans to serve as
	a safety valve for their prejudices, no way to perform America's crude
	racial triage.
</p></blockquote><p class="body">The piece speaks for itself and is my standard reply to black immigrants who talk about how native blacks don't value education and hard work, like their American counterparts, like Flatbush Avenue doesn't exist. Since I've come to New York, that's happened more times than I care to count.</p><p></p>
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	<entry>
		<id>tag:ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com,2008://31.41336-comment:115127</id>

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		<title>Comment from Keith M on 2008-07-09</title>
		<author>
				<name>Keith M</name>
				<uri></uri>
		</author>
		<content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
				<![CDATA[<p>"Why Ta-Hehisi isn't a 'Black Nerd'"?</p>

<p>I think you answered that with the following quote:<br />
". . . if your black and smart . . ."<br />
:)</p>

<p>(BTW: I've been reading your blog for a while - good stuff, and thanks!)</p>]]>
		</content>
		<published>2008-07-09T13:32:52Z</published>
	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>tag:ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com,2008://31.41336-comment:115128</id>

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		<title>Comment from batojar on 2008-07-09</title>
		<author>
				<name>batojar</name>
				<uri></uri>
		</author>
		<content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
				<![CDATA[<p>I think a lot of white folks mis-perceptions about "Black culture" boil down to a problem of mass culture vs. non-mass (or because I can't think of a better name, niche culture).  Both black and white "cultures"  have their mass vs. niche variations, and while there is a lot of overlap, there are differences - especially in the mass culture variants. </p>

<p>Because white folks, in general, have minimal contact with black folks, they completely fail to see or understand about the mass/niche split (most people also tend to forget about the split in their own experience) they end up confusing "black mass culture" for a more complex "black culture."</p>

<p>This is further complicated by the fact that white folks are pretty fully in charge of how white culture - both mass and niche - gets shaped and portrayed, while the same can't be always be said for, particularly, black mass culture.  </p>

<p>In other words, there are a lot of white people getting paid making mass culture so crappy for everyone. Fewer black folks are in the positions to mentally kneecap the Populous.</p>

<p>There is a lot of horrible stuff in mass culture generally, black and white.  It's just a cesspool of false consciousness, materialism, and appeal the the baser instincts of people.  It's much easier to be dismissive of the shittier aspects of your own culture, that you understand, than the the analogous aspects in the culture you don't.</p>]]>
		</content>
		<published>2008-07-09T13:37:29Z</published>
	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>tag:ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com,2008://31.41336-comment:115129</id>

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		<title>Comment from Eric on 2008-07-09</title>
		<author>
				<name>Eric</name>
				<uri></uri>
		</author>
		<content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
				<![CDATA[<p>The African (or Caribbean) vs. American black comparison seems particularly unfair to me, because it cherrypicks two distinct populations.  It compares someone with the motivation and intelligence (and financial resources) to immigrate with an average American.  Smart people are going to be successful in any context, and average people will go on being average.  There's plenty of average Africans in Africa, but they're there and not here because they immigrating is difficult.</p>

<p>Seriously though, D&D and comic books?  Totally a nerd.  The blackness is irrelevant.</p>]]>
		</content>
		<published>2008-07-09T15:16:33Z</published>
	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>tag:ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com,2008://31.41336-comment:115130</id>

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		<title>Comment from Tyler on 2008-07-09</title>
		<author>
				<name>Tyler</name>
				<uri>http://tigger500.typepad.com</uri>
		</author>
		<content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://tigger500.typepad.com">
				<![CDATA[<p>WOW!  Well written.  I am in total agreement!</p>]]>
		</content>
		<published>2008-07-09T18:00:42Z</published>
	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>tag:ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com,2008://31.41336-comment:115131</id>

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		<title>Comment from Jamelle on 2008-07-09</title>
		<author>
				<name>Jamelle</name>
				<uri>http://usjamerica.wordpress.com</uri>
		</author>
		<content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://usjamerica.wordpress.com">
				<![CDATA[<p>There's really not too much more to add to your pretty fantastic post.  I'd only reemphasize that the same dynamics you seem among black students are common to students of all other races.  It's simply the case that being a nerd in high school doesn't net you much social capital (unless of course, you're that rare brand of nerd who is both a good DM and quarterback).</p>]]>
		</content>
		<published>2008-07-09T18:39:54Z</published>
	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>tag:ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com,2008://31.41336-comment:115132</id>

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		<title>Comment from shani-o on 2008-07-09</title>
		<author>
				<name>shani-o</name>
				<uri>http://shanio.blogspot.com</uri>
		</author>
		<content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://shanio.blogspot.com">
				<![CDATA[<p>I've watched my (American) father verbally take down many people on my (Jamaican) mother's side of the family who like to settle in for a good session of black American bashing when they get together with some rum punch...</p>

<p>As a consequence, I tend to ignore black immigrants from any country who try to perpetuate the idea that black Americans are shiftless/lazy/education-hating/etc.  </p>

<p>My mother once reminded me that a lot of these people come from very poor countries where only the well-educated, "bourgie," if you will, can afford to leave.  So naturally, once they get to the U.S., they start criticizing the black Americans, the same way they'd criticize the poor in their homelands.</p>]]>
		</content>
		<published>2008-07-09T19:35:08Z</published>
	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>tag:ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com,2008://31.41336-comment:115133</id>

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		<title>Comment from nt on 2008-07-09</title>
		<author>
				<name>nt</name>
				<uri></uri>
		</author>
		<content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
				<![CDATA[<p>Well said, Eric.  What made the blog so hard for me to read was that I come from both sectors -- my dad is Nigerian and my mom is black, no direct ties to Africa -- and although the "black nerd" blogger gets the Nigerian part right (like the Nigerian drive for education and entrepreneurialism, if that's a word), I'm not so sure about the black part.  </p>

<p>On the same token, when I was a kid we used to get a lot of "you aren't really black" after my father moved us Boondocks-style out of the Bronx to suburban CT, and "but you aren't really African, either" from 1st generation Africans like the "black nerd" blogger.  </p>

<p>Dude who wrote the post might have done so in a snobby way, but most nerds weren't the ones on top looking down.  He makes it sound like it's easy just because he got through it.  Nerdiness is tough.  It's just a different kind of struggle.<br />
  <br />
By the way, how can you like X-men and not be a nerd?</p>]]>
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		<published>2008-07-09T19:49:25Z</published>
	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>tag:ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com,2008://31.41336-comment:115134</id>

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		<title>Comment from One Drop on 2008-07-09</title>
		<author>
				<name>One Drop</name>
				<uri>http://www.halfricanrevolution.blogspot.com</uri>
		</author>
		<content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.halfricanrevolution.blogspot.com">
				<![CDATA[<p>It seems disingenuous, in a country that only stopped legally segregating its schools a little more than 30 years ago (Brown v. Board was the start, not the culmination, of school desegregation), to try to criticize the black community for not valuing education.  Secondly, if you look around you and don't see demonstrably positive outcomes for educational achievement, e.g. people getting better jobs, better housing, nicer stuff, why would you value education?  Given the clear inequalities in employment opportunity, why wouldn't there be a difference in the valuation of education?</p>

<p>All of that assumes, of course, that there really is a large-scale difference in how much black people value education versus how much whites do.  I went to school with tons of smart, high-achieving black kids who if they weren't kicking my ass on a given test were damned sure giving me a run for my money.  And I have white relatives who never even made it out of high school.  People underestimate how much importance the black community puts on education, and overestimate how important education is to the white community. </p>

<p>If education is so important to whites, why do we see entire national political campaigns run on the argument that the other guy is an effette, latte-sipping elitist? Why do people express admiration for the English-mangling George Bush, and see him as more "authentic" because of his (artificial) Texas accent? Why do so many majority-white states have really shitty public schools? </p>]]>
		</content>
		<published>2008-07-09T21:17:16Z</published>
	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>tag:ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com,2008://31.41336-comment:115135</id>

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		<title>Comment from Kiril on 2008-07-09</title>
		<author>
				<name>Kiril</name>
				<uri></uri>
		</author>
		<content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
				<![CDATA[<p>"Why Ta-Nehisi isn't a 'black nerd.'"</p>

<p>Because your sociability index is too high. The word you are looking for is "geek." You are a black geek.</p>

<p>What's the difference? The nerd is the sysadmin guy in that cave in the basement who bristles every time you try to talk to him in person. He may enjoy Robotech and D&D, and he will belong to online groups or post on message boards to that effect. The tech fetishism present in both groups is extreme for the nerd. The nerd may view his computer--the hardware itself--as a friend, like a gearhead loves his car.</p>

<p>The geek, on the other hand, will seek out social situations. While the nerd will post his love of Robotech online, the geek will come to the bar, have a few drinks, and tell you all about it. He may even have a sense of humor about your lack of interest. </p>

<p>So short version: Nerd = basement. Geek = scifi convention. Or something like that.</p>]]>
		</content>
		<published>2008-07-09T23:14:47Z</published>
	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>tag:ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com,2008://31.41336-comment:115136</id>

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		<title>Comment from David on 2008-07-16</title>
		<author>
				<name>David</name>
				<uri>http://www.davidadewumi.com</uri>
		</author>
		<content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.davidadewumi.com">
				<![CDATA[<p>Ta-Nehisi,</p>

<p>I'm sorry that you took my thoughts completely out of context. It's meant as a personal anecdote to the essay by Paul Graham, 'Why Nerds are Unpopular' taken from my admittedly limited life experience.</p>

<p>The fact that I am responding to someone else's essay while stating that I am from central, PA should be the first tip off this is not meant to paint a broad brush against all black people in the US -- it's simply a statement of fact when I say that I haven't met that many super-smart black people. I'm currently in an area that is predominantly black and have been a number of places, like Camden, NJ, and my statement holds true -- I just haven't met that many super intelligent black people.</p>

<p>It's a far stretch of the imagination to say that because I am first-generation American -- a black African -- that I am sitting atop any 'perch' and looking down at black people. I have black best friends, I have white best friends, I have Latino best friends, I am simply telling a personal story as a reflection on what I felt was a great essay.</p>

<p>I think if you read Paul Graham's essay, you will realize that most of the context I am writing from deals specifically with middle and high school years, written from someone who admittedly grew up in a high school similar to Paul's, which he calls 'suburbia.' </p>

<p>That being said, this post obviously struck a chord, I'm sure to follow up later.</p>]]>
		</content>
		<published>2008-07-17T03:40:12Z</published>
	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>tag:ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com,2008://31.41336-comment:115137</id>

		<thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com,2008://31.41336" type="text/html" href="http://ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/07/why_tanehisi_isnt_a_black_nerd.php"/>
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		<title>Comment from David on 2008-07-17</title>
		<author>
				<name>David</name>
				<uri>http://www.davidadewumi.com</uri>
		</author>
		<content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.davidadewumi.com">
				<![CDATA[<p>Also, I think you might want to try taking more than choice quotes out of an essay/post -- it really does a disservice to the reader who loses what that entire article is grasping for.</p>

<p>"In the new racism, as in the old, somebody always has to be the nigger."</p>

<p>See: illegal immigrants.</p>

<p>This is why it's funny when you say I look down from a perch on anybody ...first all because you don't know me, and second, according to the article you provided, someone has got to be the nigger.</p>

<p>Also, I've been to the worst places in Africa (Kibera, Nairobi, Kenya -- look it up on Wikipedia) and some of the top high schools in the entire country were in that horrible slums. The difference between most every other country's value on education and America's is very palpable, and that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with color. Those kids from the slums were very, very intelligent -- and here in the US my high school was supposed to have been alright. </p>]]>
		</content>
		<published>2008-07-17T04:09:13Z</published>
	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>tag:ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com,2008://31.41336-comment:117072</id>

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		<title>Comment from Monisha on 2008-08-05</title>
		<author>
				<name>Monisha</name>
				<uri></uri>
		</author>
		<content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
				<![CDATA[<p>Your post - and the quoted reader's comment - resonated with me because it relates to another inappropriate but popular comparison.  As an Indian immigrant (effectively first generation; I came here when I was 3), I often hear praise for my parents and others in their demographic who managed to make it here despite having arrived owning nothing and knowing no one.  People contrast their success with "some of the other ethnic communities here" (read: black, hispanic) who aren't doing so well and chalk it up to Indians having a superior work ethic and respect for education. This conclusion ignores the tremendous filtering effect of the immigration process.  Because of major legal and economic barriers, generally only those Indians who were brilliant or highly educated or very rich (or all of the above) back home ever come to the US.  To the extent that there's any single "Indian culture" (unlikely given the linguistic and religious diversity), one can't conclude that it places a greater emphasis on education than any other culture without first accounting for the immigration factor.</p>]]>
		</content>
		<published>2008-08-05T16:14:32Z</published>
	</entry>

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