You can't write this stuff. Dig Toby Keith waxing philosophically on Obama's blackness. Despite posting about his new song, I really have nothing against Toby Keith. I think Shock and Ya'll is kind of funny. Besides, there's no blacker name then "Toby." Still, one of the great spectacles of this campaign has been watching people who (as I've said before) likely can't remember the last time they've had dinner with a black family, holding forth on the intricacies and mores of black America. Thanks guys. We really need you to explain our culture for us.
« Do we oppose all wars or just dumb wars? | Main | Late afternoon break » Billy Dee Williams warns Toby Keith, " Only I speak for the blacks."05 Aug 2008 03:01 pm Comments (57)
I hear this all the time--white (usually conservative) people speaking for black people. Also: Welcome Ta-Nehisi! I've been reading your work from links on Atlantic, TPM, etc. and your voice is a very welcome addition. I'm very much looking forward to your blog column here. I'll miss Yglesias here, but I guess he's popping up somewhere else soon. 
What a shame that talentless idiot like Toby Keith even has a platform. You know you sound like an fool when even Glenn Beck is like, "what the hell does that even mean?"
Toby Keith doesn't use his real name, which is Toby Covel. He probably thinks it sounds a little French or something.
Still, one of the great spectacles of this campaign has been watching people who (as I've said before) likely can't remember the last time they've had dinner with a black family, holding forth on the intricacies and mores of black America. Thank guys. We really need you to explain our culture for us. Word. But take it a step further- even if someone has a lot of black (or white, or latino, asian, indian etc.) friends, should they even then be allowed to "hold forth on the intricacies and mores of black culture"? As an Indian-American, I can't tell you how many people (almost entirely white) who feel that some sort of superficial interaction with Indian people or stay in the motherland somehow qualifies them as experts on all things Indian. When they start off their outlandish generalizations with "I've noticed Indian people all do this" or "In India, people are like XXX" I usually respond with a quick, "Wow, that's impressive. I've been Indian my whole life and didn't know all Indian people do that." Sadly, only a small percentage detect the sarcasm.
Spottie says: "Wow, that's impressive. I've been Indian my whole life and didn't know all Indian people do that." Do all Indian people spell "dopalicious" wrong?
To be fair, Toby is exhibiting a nearly universal human tendency to generalize from limited knowledge. For example, a lot of the rest of the world is quite inclined to generalize about our nation of 300 million based on a devout study of episodes of "Dallas."
Did it ever occur to Toby Keith that a man raised by a white mother and white grandparents who hailed from Kansas would bear himself like someone raised by a white mother and white grandparents from Kansas?
When you shock Glenn Beck with a racial statement, you've made history. And a White country singer calling a Black man an Oreo...I hope Guinness makes room in their next book. I wonder how Keith truly feels that we Blacks "carry ourselves".
Keith's comment was pretty ridiculous, but I'm inclined to cut him some slack. Chances are that the comments were made out of ignorance - he doesn't sound like he knows any black people well - rather than overt prejudice. That said, the song might not be racist (out West, most of the lynched were white), but it is still pretty damn racially insensitive. And I didn't say this in my last comment, but congrats on this new gig at the Atlantic! I've been a regular reader of your blog for sometime, but I'm something of a lurker.
From www.Stuffwhitepeoplelike.com: One way they can make up for it is becoming marginally acquainted with foreign cultures. It is generally acceptable for a white person to learn a few terms in a language spoken primary by non-whites (such as Chinese, Tagalog or Portuguese). They can then use these phrases to order certain ‘more authentic’ dishes in restaurants....It is imperative that you recognize how special and unique this white person is for knowing about your culture...Also, they consider a reminder that they are not racist, which also makes them feel terrific.
Well, I have lived in China for 1/2 a year, and I always complain about how the Chinese (especially Shanghainese) can not queue and always spit on the floor. It does not help that a lot of Chinese can't form a queue and do spit on the floor. I really do love China. But I am totally prepared for generalization after generalization about China during the Olympics.
Jamelle,
MoeLarryandJesus: Sorry buddy. Good try, but I just double-checked on the official Outkast website; it's spelled the same way as my name is above. No worries, it's an easy mistake to make. I made it myself the first time I started my blog.
This is the perfect time to mention that Toby Keith's "Beer for my horses" is an obviously pro-lynching anthem. See: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-blumenthal/toby-keiths-pro-lynching_b_115526.html
For example, a lot of the rest of the world is quite inclined to generalize about our nation of 300 million based on a devout study of episodes of "Dallas." Or even "Baywatch". But I'm inclined to generalize about that based on a devout study of "Borat".
Doesn't Barack Obama have a line in his stump speech decrying the part of "black culture" that uses the phrase "acting white" as a stand-in for achievement? Which means either this strand in "black culture" actually exists, or Barack Obama is as full of hops as Toby Keith. I like how it took 10 comments for someone to bring up the Ku Klux Klan. You wonder why some white folks respond when McCain says "race card"...
P- Actually, Toby Keith brought up lynching.
I think they're now generalizing about us based on 24. Dallas was decades ago. Queuing: I lived in West Africa for two years, and I think the failure to queue is one of the greatest cross-cultural hot peppers for those of us raised to expect queuing. (By hot pepper I mean the sort of cultural difference that is interesting to observe on a short visit, but on an assignment of longer than 3 months will become a personal blister, rubbed raw each time you are forced to fight your way to the ticket window or what have you, and potentially leading to "the thing that's wrong with this country..." diatribes to your fellow ex-pats.)
Oh, I forgot. Intelligence, character, hard work, and class are the purview of Whites Only. Those uppity Negroes are sooooo deluded.
Interestingly enough, sometimes it does take an outsider to spot the invisible cultural rules & norms that groups create and accept over time. A black person observing white people can tell white people a lot about themselves. Same with a white person observing black society. Does it mean either viewpoint represents 100% of the truth? Nope, but it doesn't invalidate it either. And I don't think Keith would argue that his viewpoint represents 100% of the truth across all black people. But there is no denying that many black people think Obama is playing to or attempting to assuage the perceived "fears" that white people may(or may not) have toward a black president.
Sorry for the double post, but I found the speech where Obama says "acting white". It was his 2004 DNC speech: "Go into any inner city neighborhood, and folks will tell you that government alone can't teach kids to learn. They know that parents have to parent, that children can't achieve unless we raise their expectations and turn off the television sets and eradicate the slander that says a black youth with a book is acting white." So again: according to Barack Obama, this is an actually existing strain in so-called "black culture". If Toby Keith is incorrect, Barack Obama is similarly incorrect. The truth of the statement isn't tied to how many black folks Toby Keith or Barack Obama has over for dinner. rickm- I didn't hear the rest of the interview; just the posted part.
MoeLarryandJesus: Don't want to derail this thread, so I'll respond with this and a note: my name is from an Outkast song, if you didn't get that already. And that's how it's spelled. I get the point about outsiders having a clearer view of things sometimes; but it takes prolonged, intimate exposure to the other culture to get that perspective. Does anyone really think Toby keith is a deeply involved, studious observer of black culture?
No, P, that is not correct at all. Toby Keith is doing the same thing as people who tell a black kid with a book that he is "acting white." How you can compare these two statements is pretty ridiculous. Toby Keith is clearly saying that Obama is pretending to be 'whiter' than he is in order to be succesful. That somehow he is not 'down.' Actually, I'd be very surprised if Toby Keith even knew what he was trying to say. Glenn Beck, who's surely someone sympathetic to Keith's worldview, didn't have any idea what he meant either. But it definitely wasn't a statement similar to anything Barack Obama said in '04. You're silly...
"...and eradicate the slander that says a black youth with a book is acting white." Don't you get it, P? Toby Keith is the slanderer in this case. He's the one stating that Obama must be 'acting white,' because he's been so successful. Obama is the one with book, and Toby Keith is the one telling him he's acting white.
I think that sometimes these generalizations about another race are necessary for broad discussions on the topic. And how do we know if Toby Keith hangs out with black people? Maybe all of TK's black friends ridicule Obama for acting white. Maybe he doesn't see the need to advertise the fact that he has black friends(even if you do). I for one, barely know who Toby Keith is. I have witnessed black people repeatedly (and hilariously) mocking Obama, usually for his manner of speech. It is good natured mocking, but there is some degree of real resentement there too, and obviously some acknolwedgment that his speech sounds "white". That being said, I don't think Keith was that far off the mark, regardless of whether he learned this from having dinner with a black family. I also think that we should keep in mind that blacks generalize about whites just as frequently as the opposite, and in my opinion, these generalizations about whites from blacks are even less reasonable since black culture is far more homogenous than white. Oh, and welcome to Coates! I love an open and civil discussion on race.
P, In the event you aren't just a troll, uh you need to work on your reading comprehension. Obama is saying exactly the opposite of what Keith is.
P- Barack Obama was incorrect. This has been known to happen from time to time.
(I can't believe I am going to defend Toby Keith) Here is the full quote: I don't know what that means, I'm saying that's what I think that they would say. Even though the the black society would pull for him, I still think that they think in the back of their mind that the only reason that he is in is because he talks, acts and carries himself as a Caucasian, but I think he's got a I think him and McCain are the two best choices, in my opinion, that we've had in years Toby Keith is who he is: an Oklahoma roughneck; self-described white trash. Given that, it's inevitable that he's going to lack some nuance and grace when talking about race. However, he identifies as a Democrat (albeit a conservative) and really seems to be a fan of Obama. Toby Keith isn't a bad guy, I may disagree with him about a lot of issues, but I think he represents the kind of person that progressives can reach out to and find common ground with. It is a mistake to lump him in with the stereotypical southern racists. The idea that his song, "Beer for My Horses," is code for support of lynching of black men is ridiculous. The claim that someone is endorsing such a patently racist practice, requires much more evidence than the very flimsy analysis referenced above. This song isn't the first time Keith has employed tropes from the "wild west." His first hit song was "Shoulda Been a Cowboy". And let's remember he is writing in a genre saturated with metaphors and imagery from the old west. All the men (and many of the women) wear cowboy hats. The full (now archaic) name of his genre of music is Country and Western. In this context, the lynching in the song is seen as a reference to the lynchings of the old west, where it is deeply woven into the mythology and lacks the more recent racist subtext. Given all these facts, it is shameful to accuse Toby Keith of writing a "pro-lynching" (of black people) song. Truly shameful. Toby Keith is not David Allan Coe
Shani-o,
Stacey- Toby Keith is saying he thinks black people think Obama is carrying himself as a Caucasian; he's making a comment on what he thinks "black culture" is (which is why Coates is pissed off). Here's a partial transcript starting at 32 seconds: Keith: "Ok, but I also think black people would say he don't talk, act or carry himself as a black person." Beck: "What does that even mean?" Keith: "Well, I don't know what that means but I'm sayin' that that's what I think that they would say even though the black society would pull for him I think in the back of their mind that they think that..that the only reason he is in is because he talks, acts, and carries himself as a Caucasian." So it isn't Toby Keith who is saying Obama is "acting white", it is Toby Keith saying that black folks would say Obama is "acting white". See? Now- I'm not saying Toby Keith is correct so-called "black culture", but since Obama says the same thing in his speech (even though Obama has dinner with more black folks, as if that mattered), then either they are both naive about so-called "black culture" or they both correctly see that as an aspect of black culture. shani-o: I agree. eric k: thanks for the advice about my reading comprehension. I am, in fact, a troll: so I'll be leaving this site and letting you all agree with each other from now on.
Spottie replies: "Don't want to derail this thread, so I'll respond with this and a note: my name is from an Outkast song, if you didn't get that already. And that's how it's spelled." I got it. Outkast spelled it wrong, too. Not that it's a crime or anything, but that extra s is just so un-economical. Nice blog you've got going, BTW.
Well, P, I suppose I might need to see the entire context, but it seems to me that Toby Keith is saying... "Obama is pretending to be whiter than he is, and I think the black community would agree with me." It certainly doesn't look like Toby Keith is decrying this type of thinking, but I suppose he could just be spitting it out in a very inarticulate way...
Equally disturbing is the white liberal message that Obama's candidacy means we have come so far without actually explaining what "so far" actually is. Implicit is this dangerous assumption that Obama winning means whites are off the hook for racism.
P, If you want to insist of misreading what Obama is saying then good riddance, there are plenty of other right wing trolls on this site. If you want to disagree on the issues and have informed debate great we need more of that, but based on your contributions to this thread that doesn't seem to be your intent, changing the meaning of Obama quotes is not reasoned debate.
Deborah@5:04: Were you a PCV in Mali? My experience over there was that they don't have bus queues there, they've got bus scrums.
Tyler, So let me see if I got this straight, we can't vote for Obama because that would mean deluding ourselves into thinking that racism isn't actualy a problem any more? So instead we need to elect yet another old white conservative, nice bit of double backflip mental gymnastics there:-) Seriously, nice straw man you have there, show me exactly which white liberals are arguing that electing Obama shows that racism is gone so we can quit worrying about it?
"I like how it took 10 comments for someone to bring up the Ku Klux Klan. You wonder why some white folks respond when McCain says "race card"... Posted by P | August 5, 2008 4:54 PM" Huh? So somebody mockingly linking to "Stuff White People Like," which is a site that mocks the type of educated white liberals that support Obama, is playing the race card? At best, I'm not even sure Toby Keith knew what he was trying to say. Some people just aren't meant to be talking about politics on TV. If it's not that, then he seems to see "educated and articulate = acting white."
This is why we need Barack Obama as president. For the first time in living memory (outside of the arguments I got into growing up on the reservation) we are having an open honest dialogue about the essence of "race" in this country. It's been interesting to watch everything come out of the woodwork during the course of this campaign. I don't think personally that Toby Keith's statements are overtly racist. Pejorative, Condescending, misinformed, yes but not overtly racist. It is my humble belief that there are different types of racism. Racism from ignorance, and overt Bigotry From Indians (Native Americans) He's white he'll never understand. I think that Toby's comments can safely be put into the ignorance block. I don't that they are malicious just ignorant. However I really think that the Obama Candidacy is doing wonders for an open honest dialogue about race-relations in this country. It is really forcing people to examine what they say in the privacy of their own homes and take a look at the ramifications of what they say. This is a good thing. (My personal opinion is that paternalistic white-guilt has stopped many caucasians from examining their (I should say our) assumptions about other groups of people for way too long. The only way to deal with prejudice is to tear the mask off of it and identify it.)
"If it's not that, then he seems to see "educated and articulate = acting white." Which is kinda funny coming from Toby Keith.
Ta-Nehisi- Still, one of the great spectacles of this campaign has been watching people who (as I've said before) likely can't remember the last time they've had dinner with a black family, holding forth on the intricacies and mores of black America. It really funny when a candidate for President tries to do the same thing. "Here’s how it is: in a lot of these communities in big industrial states like Ohio and Pennsylvania, people have been beaten down so long. They feel so betrayed by government that when they hear a pitch that is premised on not being cynical about government, then a part of them just doesn’t buy it. And when it’s delivered by — it’s true that when it’s delivered by a 46-year-old black man named Barack Obama, then that adds another layer of skepticism." I'm sure they we're all just so afraid of "black" people that he couldn't possibly have ever dined in a "hillside doublewide"- because our racism would allow us to invite him. Still, it was quite a "spectacle" hearing him "detail" our "intricacies".
Toby's comments run parallel to Leonard Pitts, et al and what they were saying a year or so ago, to be fair. Ta-Nehisi, I really enjoy your writing, but between the "we don't need you guys to explain our culture for us," and McArdle's apologia on use of the n-word, it can get a little much. If a lot of white people are wrong, and being silly and presumptuous, let's just say that instead. If we keep looking at race-as-fraternity we invite the Steve Sailer types. 'Cuz Moelarry is tame compared to the types of commenters who'll come out of the woodwork. That said, the video is pretty funny.
Gordon Lightweight says: "If we keep looking at race-as-fraternity we invite the Steve Sailer types. 'Cuz Moelarry is tame compared to the types of commenters who'll come out of the woodwork." Steve Sailer was invited here by Ross Douthat long before I ever found the place. I'm just calling him and his followers on their crap. Live with it or go away.
I WILL WRITE THIS IN ALL CAPS BECAUSE IT IS IMPORTANT. I THINK IT IS TIME TO USE THE BROADER READERSHIP TO RE-VOTE FOR THE OFFICIAL BLACK SPOKESPERSON. whew. that's a lot of caps! i'd personally want to switch from Billy Dee to Charles Barkley. also, i think jon stewart should speak for all white people.
Wow -- I read Ta-Nehisi's blog and comments with interest ever since I read his article on Cosby. I do not recall all this rudeness in the comments there! Welcome to the Atlantic?
"one of the great spectacles of this campaign has been watching people who (as I've said before) likely can't remember the last time they've had dinner with a black family, holding forth on the intricacies and mores of black America. Thank guys. We really need you to explain our culture for us." I'm with Fletch. This should be a test for the entire pundit class: Do you know what you're talking about? when was the last time Bill O'Reilly (or Michael Moore, for that matter) actually spent time with the working class heroes that so desperately need their shoulders-up championing? All talking-head opinions should be accompanied by some sort of flight-hours graphic indicating the amount of time a commentator has actually spent interacting with the people or issue he is discussing.
"one of the great spectacles of this campaign has been watching people who (as I've said before) likely can't remember the last time they've had dinner with a black family, holding forth on the intricacies and mores of black America. Thank guys. We really need you to explain our culture for us." I'm with Fletch. This should be a test for the entire pundit class: Do you know what you're talking about? when was the last time Bill O'Reilly (or Michael Moore, for that matter) actually spent time with the working class heroes that so desperately need their shoulders-up championing? All talking-head opinions should be accompanied by some sort of flight-hours graphic indicating the amount of time a commentator has actually spent interacting with the people or issue he is discussing.
Drat, sorry for the double posting. Flighty Danish broadband. Your headline, by the way, reminds me of something I think Chris Rock said during the OJ trial: "OJ Simpson is a symbol for black people now? Who next, Philip Michael Thomas?"
Hey Moe, Since you like to check the commenters' blogs, you should check out my new one at www.patriabolivariana2008.blogspot.com. WTF is up with no more comments at DOuthat's site? The comments are the best thing he has going there, except of course for the Sailerite scum.
"also, i think jon stewart should speak for all white people." Um, Christian Lander's a stronger contender for "White Spokesperson." I mean, I love the Daily Show as much as the next white person, but Lander created stuffwhitepeoplelike.com!
"Um, Christian Lander's a stronger contender for "White Spokesperson." I mean, I love the Daily Show as much as the next white person, but Lander created stuffwhitepeoplelike.com!" You've got a strong argument there, but I wonder whether Lander's TV ready. As official white spokesperson, his primary responsibility will be go on cable news shows to explain issues that are "of interest to white people." That's why I want Barkley to speak for me!
Rottin' in Denmark, I totally agree that there should be some kind of graph showing actual hours logged in the company of those one is pontificating on, or about. When I became a mother I spent a ridiculous amount of money on childcare books. Then I realized that most of the authors had been too busy with their psychology and medical careers to log much time in, well, childcare. Ever since then, have wished for a 'truth in advertising' graph showing the consecutive number of weeks, months and/or years a given childcare expert has spent being the primary caregiver to actual children. (Seems that the people who usually take care of children do not have time to lecture and write books.) Never considered a punditry analogue to my proposed consecutive childcare time log, but thanks to these comments I think such measures are long overdue. And welcome, Ta-Nehisi Coates!
"This should be a test for the entire pundit class: Do you know what you're talking about?" Wouldn't it just be easier for most of CNN to get laid off and FoxNews to go out of business?
Thanks for the props. As for official black spokesperson, Barkley has my vote. Though Dave Chappelle would be a close second.
So what's wrong with what Toby Keith said? Sounds like he's been listening to Jesse Jackson, who has accused Obama of "acting like he's white." http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/09/19/jackson-accuses-obama-of-acting-white/
Janine, Your point is well taken. Perhpas Mr. Lander could be the head of "White Correspondent" at the Daily Show. He could come on set John up by way of delivering a series of pieces explaining "White People." Also, while we're speaking of "White" media, what's our equivalent to "Undercover Brother?" "Animal House" is as close as I can get, but it's a tad dated. "Talladega Nights" maybe?
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LMAO!! That's hilarious....
Posted by Nista206 | August 5, 2008 3:29 PM