I think I get the logic of Obama supporters now calling for Hillary as VP. Obama isn't an angel, but in terms of hardcore, step on your throat, attack politics, it just ain't his game. Watch the video from yesterday, and then watch this video below where Obama brings up Wal-Mart. When I saw it, I was half glad--and then not. It's not that Obama isn't a fighter, but his weapon of choice is the dagger not the battleaxe. From "I'm looking forward to you advising me" to "They take pride in being ignorant," Obama is at his best when countering with humor.
If we're going down this muddy road, if we're going to be in the slop with these guys, if we're going to be trading mansions for Ayres, if nothing is going to be off limits, we really need somebody who is going to relish the dirty-work--someone who thinks of this as the "fun part." This is Hillary's greatest strength. She gets a lot of points for having cajones and being a tough woman. But that idea misses the point and gives her male colleagues more credit than they deserve. Clinton isn't a better fighter than Barack--she's a better bar-fighter. Barack wants to dance like Ali. Clinton will pummel that ass Kimbo Slice style. It would be a great combo from that perspective. Notice the "we're just getting warmed up" part before she drops Rezko on him.
My only fear is that Clinton brings just so much baggage with her. Any Hillary supporter who thinks that Lanny Davis, Bob Johnson and Bill Clinton were effective surrogates is smoking. Man with friends like those...The only way this could possibly work is if Bill and Lanny and co. stayed the eff away, or were very strategically deployed. Hillary couldn't control him in the primary. What makes us think Barack could control him in the general?
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An Obama/Clinton ticket would be a disaster--and, like you, I'm thinking not just of the short-term but of the White House dynamic. In the short term, Hillary (and her husband) have not been fully vetted--there's all the post-presidency hob-nobbing Bill has done with less-than-upright individuals for (some would argue) less-than-upright reasons); and in the long term, there'd be, at best, a sense that choosing Hillary would be a CYA choice for the neophyte Obama--that he's so incapable/unsure of himself, he'd in essence would be getting two Vice Presidents. The optics would be horrible: the Bush-Cheney dynamic all over again, but arguably worse. And I'm not just referring to between now and November, either.
It's clear to me that Obama and his advisors have always had the long view in mind; surely they are not looking only to November but well beyond January. If that's also true of the VP search, then Clinton is not and has never been a realistic option.
If he needs a bar fighter he's much better off choosing Biden in my opinion.
Y'know, the VP candidate doesn't actually have to be the one and only 'attack dog;' it's usually a good idea to have a pack of them on hand during a campaign, after all. People like HRC and Biden actually should be effective in that role without being on the ticket, simply because they can get plenty of press coverage completely independently (and as a bonus, the campaign won't have to stand by what's said).
Also, what John B. said wrt the Clinton baggage... it's not just Bill, but the entire brigade of undisciplined, self-aggrandizing hacks that happily leaked their way through Bill's administration.
Right, right, right. Mitt Romney and Rudy have done plenty of attacking. I fear she ain't gonna do it unless he wifes her though. Which, in and of itself, may make the case against.
I hove no idea who Obama will pick and this late in the game its all meaningless speculation. I will say, s someone who was enthusiastically behind Clinton until Obama got it and who now likes Obama - political chops aside - what I like about a "unity" ticket is two-fold; one, it brings the Democratic party solidly together in a way I can't remember them being. Don't kid yourself thinking there's not still a lot of pro-Clinton resentment out there. Second, an Obama-HRC ticket would unambiguously break the mold. A black man and a woman ticket - after eight years of the most white bread, pork-chop, viagra popping southern white male bullshit, that's change I can believe in.
Hillary is a malignant cancer within the Democratic Party with her Karl Rove slash and burn mentality and her inability to ever tell the truth. She's nothing more than Dick Cheney in an ugly pantsuit. She ran a disgusting, dishonest campaign based on race-baiting and fear-mongering. She doesn't deserve the VP slot because she lacks integrity, decency, and gravitas. Hillary is a megalomanic with the mentality of a teenage punk. She and Bill want to hold the Democratic Party hostage. They don't own the fricking party. It's time to put the two-headed megalomanical monster of Bill and Hillary in the rearview mirror and forget about them.
I agree, Obama comes off much better when he throws a humorous dig at an opponent. I remember that realization hitting me when he and Clinton were fighting over the gun clinging thing. He responded to Clinton by making an illusion to her pretending to be like Annie Oakley.
It was such a sharp attack that exposed her pandering and being Clintonian. The netroots are full of a lot of armchair machismoists who seem to want to push hyperaggressive politics (maybe as a way of compensating for something). But I think asking Obama to do that is like when the Lions asked Barry Sanders to block, that just wasn't his thing.
Sorry Ta-N.
I am no Clinton fan, but I do give her props where it's due. She does have positives as a candidate, and she has pushed some things legislatively that are good.
But putting her on the Obama ticket as VP would be the EPIC FAIL to end all EPIC FAILs.
"Illusion" should be "allusion". I should proof this before I hit post
ps.
He definitely could use an attack dog as VP. Just not Clinton.
I guess I have always been in the minority in thinking he did well in this exchange. Sure he seemed uncomfortable in attacking her, but the substance and depths of the attacks were effective. He managed to paint her as untruthful, he made the digg about running against both her and her husband, and clearly got her to appear shrill by causing her to swing with the Rezko comeback. After the debate, that charge was proven to be quite the reach. That being said, I think that there is merit to a fighter as the VP whether it be Biden or Clinton, clearly Barack is at his best when he is able to remain above the fray.
The best part of the clip is the great "WOW" response from Stephanie Tubbs Jones, she will be missed...
What Mark said.
The notion of Hillary as "tough" will always collapse under the weight of what Bill did to her (multiple times) and what she put up with instead of walking away from. A doormat is a doormat, regardless of its rhetoric or its posturing or the way the media depicts it as "tough" because it didn't walk out on a lying, cheating husband. Plus, she failed to stand up to Bush.
Dark horse pick: Jim Webb
Barack is both too smart and too self-confident to either cave into the Clintons or play defense with an establishment dullard like Biden or Bayh.
While they've made mistakes here and there, the Obama campaign has always maintained focus, consistency and the long view. That's why he won the nomination.
Where I'm going with this: The core principle of the campaign -- and its strategy for victory -- has been all along: Expand the base in an aggressive 50-state strategy.
I'd be deeply surprised if the VP pick were someone whose selection didn't directly underscore the 50-state strategy and the message of fresh leadership.
Obama laying in the cut while a woman stands up to for him against the Republican slime machine, just doesn't strike me a good idea. The Obama camp had to know this kind of stuff was coming. Hopefully they have a better strategy for a push back than handing it off to the VP, whoever that may be.
Personally, I'm still hoping that Wesley Clark gets the nod.
I think Obama is a great attack dog when he gets indignant as evidenced with his "sitting on the board of Walmart" comment. The difference between Barack's attack and Hillary's attack is that Barack's is true.
Deep down Hillary has too much respect for Lee Atwater/Karl Rove style of campaigning. She has adopted all of them. Lets not forget her implosion with the Bosnia lie. That was a real unforced error that hurt her. She's got very high negatives already. I forget which poll it was that said 2/3 of people thinks she's a fraud. And lastly, Republicans are just settling for McCain. They dont really like him. There's no passion there. Putting Hillary on the ticket will drive them to the polls on election day. The hate is that strong.
I think we need someone who will maintain their integrity while attacking. I like Kaine, especially after seeing him respond to Karl Rove.
"Cajones" -- is this the feminine form of "cojones"?
She not only comes with baggage, but I'd be surprised if the Republicans haven't found more and better dirt. They had 8 years to prepare for her. They've got it, they haven't been able to use it. They're lying in wait. She'd be a disasterous choice.
T-NC,
thanks for the post.
the check will be in the mail!
i couldn't agree more with your view.
obama's best style of presentation involves a subtlety that just goes over the heads of most voters.
hillary is just the opposite. she's like one of those old vikings charging ahead with a big club, ready to pummel whoever is in her way.
i think it would be an unbeatable combination.
barack standing above the fray, as is his habit, and hillary doing the dirty work, which she relishes.
i knew she was perfect for this kind of job back in '92 when i saw her snap back that she wasn't some little tammy wynette saying that she'll just stand by her man while she stayed home and baked cookies.
barack would be a fool if he did not pick clinton.
i'm glad to see that you've seen the light on my girl, hillary!
"i knew she was perfect for this kind of job back in '92 when i saw her snap back that she wasn't some little tammy wynette saying that she'll just stand by her man while she stayed home and baked cookies."
I think that Hillary's history of, um, "standing by her man" tends to undermine your point.
"Cajones" would be large boxes ... it's a common anglophone misspelling.
Clearly BHO wants this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_Williams
8 years of Bill & Hill baggage.
Vast pools of hate to tap into.
Get to add sexism to the dog whistle collection.
Piss of the left wing b/c Obama is betraying his promise.
Yikes. Might as well hand McCain the election by default.
toxic,
do you think the republicans can get any more lowdown and mean and nasty?
i don't think so.
they've shown that they will sink to the lowest depths even without clinton to run against, so i cannot imagine things getting any worse.
remember, americans are much LESS tolerant of sexism than they are of racism. they just joke and talk more about matters that may be sexist, while racism usually is framed in a more sublte fashion.
and i think you make the same mistake that al gore made when you fret about the "baggage" from the clinton years.
if he had embraced, rather than tried to distance himself from the clinton economy, he would have won with enough of a margin so as to have made florida's results irrelevant.
the fact is that bill has always been extremely popular.
the fact is that people have extremely fond memories of the clinton economy.
in fact, i think that obama is verging on making gore's same mistake, by not trying to tap into the kind of satisfaction most americans had during the clinton/democratic years.
having a clinton on the ticket, only helps to remind people of the fact that once upon a time, the economy did work for average americans.
I still think turnout is going to be the deciding factor here. I'm really skeptical that Republicans will turn out for McCain, UNLESS you put Hillary on the ticket. Why help Mcain energize his base?!?!
Count me among the Obama supporters who don't, in any way, want Hillpatine on the ticket.
UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.