Liveblogging starts now folks. Let's go.
10:55 I keep hearing this "Obama kept agreeing with McCain, he should stop that next debate." Obama should not listen to these people. He got his licks in, and he did them looking directly at McCain. He should not be dragged into petulance.
10:36 I like the invocation of his father--ties him to the American mythos. Of course McCain hits back with POW POW POW...
10:30 This "You don't understand," "You don't know the difference between a tactic and strategy" may have worked if Iraq had not been a debacle. This is a CHANGE election, not a status quo election.
10:12 I like that Spain line. I think this "don't talk to anyone" line is a loser, it was a loser in the primaries, it's a loser now.
10:05 McCain's tie is better.
10:00 Boy McCain sounds punchdrunk. On another note, Obama flubbed the young man's name. Not good.
9:55 Nice riposte "extinction for North Korea...Songs about bombing Iran..."
9:51 The dagger of venom again--"That is a strategic mistake..."
9:46 I'm sorry maybe I am drinking the Kool-Aid but Obama is hanging tough on this Iraq thing. In other news, Deborah is a great commenter.
9:41 Obama swinging swords on Iraq. He's confident on an issue that Dems so often back away from.
9:40 Boy this "Lessons of Iraq" answer is rambling. I expected McCain to hit this one out the park. He's just blathering.
9:37 Heh a buddy of mine just sent me an M.O.P. reference to Obama in the debate "Kidnap that fool. Get em! Get em! Get em!"
9:29
It really feels like the only thing that McCain is really excited about
(in reference to the economy) is government spending. I don't think
people watching the past week think that "government spending" is
what's really ailing us.
9:18 McCain strong on earmarks. Not that I agree. But he came alive and clearly seems to care.
9:14 Roofies are a gateway drug?
9:10 Wow. Standing strong on that Chris Cox thing. Kinda shocking. I thought McCain would back off of that.
9:07 Obama strong and direct early. McCain is wobbly. Sometimes the narrative is just true. This isn't McCain's area.
The Beautiful Struggle: A Father, Two Sons, and an Unlikely Road to Manhood 
Copyright © 2009 by The Atlantic Monthly Group. All rights reserved.
Just turned on NPR. John McCain favors American workers.
McCain, you fucking liar, you weren't criticized for asking the chair of the SEC to resign. You were criticized for pretending you could fire him.
Addressing two other liveblogs:
Yes, Andrew, McCain believes the only issue with government spending and with the economy is earmarks. Go bears of Montana!
Wonkette thought B and J might be about to turn on Lehrer, which reminds me of my great hope in the last B H debate, with that stupid veep question, where I hoped they would turn on George, briefly unite, and explain the Constitution and relevant legal history to him.
Ahem. Back on topic:
Obama just made a good point about trusting the market to do everything, and how it hasn't worked. McCain is back on earmarks. Whatever happens is about earmarks. Earmarks. Also just repeated the $42,000 fantasy, which Obama called him on.
I'm on a bus and so far not able to watch the debate but wanted to endorse any GZA references that may occur this evening. McCain's arguments are weak like clock radio speakers.
McCain looks strong early. Hitting the same theme for every question. Sounds calm and confident in voice and posture, after that initial bout with Tuberculous.
Kinda worried...
M knows we can cut spending because he's been working on spending for decades! But look where we are....
Oh good, Obama heard me and is hitting this point.
Now McCain says he's not Miss Congeniality. Attack on Palin? (Would be if Obama had said it.)
MAVERICK!!! Everybody drink!
Finally onto Al Qaeda. And Iraq; I'd like to put the debte eye back on the ball with al Qaeda.
Hitting him on quick and easy, we know where the wmds are--this is good, but I could stand for McCain to threaten to invade Spain....
Okay, for McCain to say that anyone else confuses strategy and tactics is rich.
John McCain is getting monkey flipped with the funky rhythm
McCain/Palin: Cut Spending First. Except for Alaska.
Yes, Afgahanistan. Everyone's been following Obama on this--he was way out in front.
Why didn't Obama reply to McCains diatribe about Petreaus begging McCain to let him win, say that two weeks ago Petraus told the bbc that the war in iraq is not about victory and can not be reduced to a slogan
Obama great on Afghanistan and tying it to waste of money and time. But McCain is willing to hang Bush's record on this, while eliding his own record.
McCain: "They've intermarried with al-Qaida and the Taliban."
I didn't know you could "intermarry" with a terrorist group and a religious sect.
Nice. Singing songs about bombing Iran. Zing.
Right on, Deborah. Obama has been really firm about Afghanistan.
But he just peter-rolled McCain about "singing songs about bombing Iran." Good shot, B.
Ronald Reagan is John McCain's great idol of peacemaking?
Wow.
That explains a lot about McCain's worldview.
Why the obvious condescension?
"I don't think Senator Obama understands (insert talking point)."
It's such patronizingly superior stuff...then he jumps right back into telling some old emotional appeal story.
Plus, he missed the boat entirely with the Somalia point.
Late comment, but I'm still peeved over McCain's cheap reference to Kennedy earlier.
Also, re: Pakistan, it was not technically a failed state. Iraq is a failed state. Somalia is a failed state. Benazir Bhutto was elected in Pakistan pre-Musharraf. Duh.
Are Obama and McCain wearing the same suit? I know we're only supposed to talk about what women candidates wear but damn. It's as if they focus tested that color blue. But if that's the case who sent McCain out with that tie and no flag pin? Did they think the red and white stripes on his tie, combined with the blue jacket would make his whole upper body look like an American flag?
Now back to substanitive analysis...
One thing McCain is good at--I notice this because it was called out as something Palin is lacking in her interviews--is the ability to turn things to "Let me tell you about the time I...."
It's the bracelet-off. Please bring up McCain voting against Webb's bill.
Pakistan was a failed state ???????? WTF Mushy took power in a military coup...
ooohhhh dueling bracelets....what's next nipple rings, tongue piercings
Drinks should be muddled, not foreign policy! Also, McCain would like everyone to know that he is a better subcommittee chair. Because that is so very, very relevant.
Pakistan was in trouble when the military coup happened.
Is McCain repeating himself? Like, in an old guy way? Am I projecting?
Is it me, or does McCain sound more and more defensive as this goes on? It's beyond sounding punch-drunk, methinks. McCain sounds like he's getting flustered.
@Abdi: He sounds condescending because he is--McCain can't stand Obama. Also I think he's hoping to rattle Obama--McCain is starting to sound a little wobbly, but I have no idea how this is playing with visuals.
I do like this format--the questions have been substantive, and there's a chance to both challenge the other's assertions and for the moderator to come back and say "about my original question...."
Iran. Whoa, he brought up Kyl-Lieberman. Obama rebutting and getting the facts straight. Whew. And states the obvious that nothing has strengthened Iran more than the war in Iraq.
With what, exactly, moral and political capital does Senator McCain suggest building this "League of Extraordinary Democracies?" Is this the next "Coalition of the Willing," featuring such foreign affairs powerhouses as Albania, Mongolia and Tonga?
DID HE SERIOUSLY JUST SAY HOLOCAUST?
Oh, I disagree on the ties. McCain's is making my TV jump. I keep seeing rainbows. It's distracting.
Didn't Henry Kissinger say he'd sit down without preconditions? Am I making that up?
Jim Lehrer is great. I like that he allowed rebuttals and still reiterates his focus statement; he always brings them back to the original question.
John McCain, I think, has no real grasp of international relations. He understands war, maybe. I don't think diplomacy is even in his vocabulary. Every time Barack mentions dialogue with Ahmedinejad or Musharraf, McCain flashes this horrible, horrible smile.
Negotiation and Neville Chamberlain aren't synonymous.
I was hoping he'd bring up Spain.
Dear lord greginak, don't toss the image of Obama and McCain dueling with their tongue piercings out there with no warning...
@Brendan: Flashes of fluster but he's in control. (At least going by radio.)
Ooh, pointed out that Achmedinijad is not the most powerful person in Iraq. And nice pivot on engagement, and pre-limiting oneself as a silly strategy.
Kissinger! Palin doesn't know his policies, let's see if McCain does....Ooh zing, the acknowledgement that you might not get what you want every time, but it is still a tool to be used--sounding very in control. Now onto North Korea.
And Spain!! Yes! Nato ally!
McCain's response is sounding stick in the mud but not flustered.
McCain's tie is not better. He looks like a used-car salesman. His blue suit is not dark enough. Obama looks much more elegant.
Wouldn't it be great if Kissinger stood up now and clarified himself?
I think the tie thing depends on whether you're watching in HD or not.
I think McCain is about to lose his mind on this Iran exchange. McCain's smirk is coming out and it's as disturbing as it was against the green screen a few months ago.
Little known fact: you can see Putin's soul from Alaska.
Stop with the "he doesn't understand." It is demonstrably false. And please stop with the passport recitals.
A picture of Putin in South Ossetia is indicative of complete support?
Several people are citing McCain's tie as bleeding distractingly, so I think he loses on ready-for-tv points. (I have voice only.)
Russia! Good callback to staring into Putin's eyes. Please bring up Alaska, from which one can see Russia.
Audience is very quiet.
McCain is staring into eyes now. No one stares into Medvedev's eyes...Tying Russia to energy policy, good move. We will support Georgia and Ukraine in NATO--has he been that specific before? Or does this count as eliding "after they work out border disagreements."
"We want to work with the Russians" but then seems ready to insult them. Tosses a lot of names out.
Obama agreeing. mmm.
Senator Obama doesn't seem to understand....
I have to give it to them, they are going at it. McCain likes to list the obscure places he's been huh?
What Ahmedinejad actually said about Israel: it must vanish from the page of time.
Is the Iranian regime hostile toward Israel? Yes, obviously. But this canard that there's a second Holocaust lurking around the corner (a talking point for both McCain and Palin recently) is such bullshit.
BTW, in spite of everything, including my imperfect grasp of the American man in the street, my suspicion is that this is a win for McCain, if only because it's not a huge fail.
McCain just laughed when Obama mentioned "safe" storage of nuclear waste.
Does it seem like McCain is getting testier as the debate continues? He seems to be getting snippier and grumpier.
Interesting observation from Fallows:
Unless it happened when I glanced away, up until this moment, 77 minutes into the 90-minute debate, John McCain has not once looked at Obama -- while listening to him, while addressing him, while disagreeing with him, while finding moments of accord.
Anyone with tv noticing this?
From Marc's Blog -- "I'm told that Republicans at the RNC believe that McCain doesn't sound angry...Obama does...and McCain's the one who's acting cool. To each his own."
Really???
The one thing I cannot understand about the way this debate is developing is the constant pivots to implicit condescension that McCain's indulging in. Sure, it's an effort in part to paint Obama as thoroughly inexperienced and ill-equipped to face the large problems he will face as President, but it just makes him seems petty when he riffs on having the requisite contacts/experience with the other leaders of the world.
McCain's tie would be better if it was on Obama. Stripes are too hip for McCain.
On the other hand...here's a comment from the inimitable Michelle Malkin's blog:
MM,
Overall so far…McCain is not quick enough on the uptake. Obama is more focused and clearly more prepared with the details and populist counter-arguments. McCain needs to respond quickly from two perspectives….1) What he would do moving forward, and 2) What he has done over the last 25+ years, esp bipartisan efforts.
Q1: Why did McCain say he has “spoken out” about Fannie and Freddie instead of talking about his introduction of legislation in 2003 to provide further regulation/oversight of F & F.
Q2: Obama immed answers a question of what he plans to cut during this financial crisis with a laundry list of his proposals for new spending programs. McCain misses an easy opening to say just that…”Obama was asked what he would cut and answered how he would spend”.
More later..
Rich
USMC (Retired)
Interesting - maybe I was too pessimistic.
Here we go again, more forcefully than ever before. It's inexplicable.
I haven't seen or heard any suprises yet. I'm glad Obama brought up torture in regards to National Security..
McCain several times zings "Obama doesn't understand..." but Obama doesn't get ruffled, each time. Important. Wonder if this is the next attack sequence from McCain campaign...
Good that Obama keeps hammering home Iraq.
Don't know that any votes will be swung. Each is doing pretty good in areas they needed to. Think it will come down....Who do you like?
Oooo...McCain brings up stubborness, but ties it to the surge; not sure this resonates with swing voters the way McCain might expect.
Obama looks into the camera several times...is this good or bad? dunno...
Anybody else think McCain talks like he's reading somebody a bed time story?
Ta-Nehisi,
As for the Chosen One flubbing the young soldier's name, the devil's advocate argument is that McCain may bring his bracelet up a lot more than Barack, thus having burned the man's name into his head. Just saying.
God, I LOVE Michelle Obama.
McCain didn't seem very congenial at the end. He looks obvious in his disdain for Obama. This doesn't always go over well with audiences.
Andrew has a photo up of the handshake, and Obama is looking at McCain and McCain is gazing off to the side, like he'll lose it if he looks at Obama.
Weird. And perhaps worth starting a meme about if it was consistent.
Tessa, I think he sounded condescending at many points, don't know how it will play. Combined with the not-looking at him thing, makes him seem over-emotional but again...if you're undecided, how did that go?
In general, Obama didn't sound longwinded and professorial, and McCain didn't sound confused about which country was under discussion, so they both did what they needed to do. That that was what each needed to do explains my own vote...
And I love how the first thing he says to her after the debate is "How'd we do?"
I am such a girl. So?
I think the who won questions doesn't apply here. In the cases of Gore and Kerry vs Bush you had guys on one side who clearly knew what they were talking about vs. a guy reciting talking points.
Here what you had were 2 guys who both clearly understand their policies and were able to get them across. If you are a McCain supporter you still are, if your are an Obama suporter you still are. If you were undecided you have a clear distinction on a few key issues. I would think if you are an undecided who wants to support Obama but isn't sold yet you should have been convinced that he meets the Commander in Chief threshold.
WTF was going on there w/ the body language? Seriously, my in-laws are African American and they think McCain is purposely dissing Obama by refusing to acknowledge him AS A HUMAN BEING, let alone a viable competitor.
Now, I'm not saying this is McCain's intention... but, there is a LONG history of older white males looking down to younger black males in precisely this way.
Even Jim Fallows thinks his refusal to look Obama in the eye is "distinct" and I would add strange. It's offensive, insulting, and COWARDLY.
Tough guys can't look their opponents in the eye anymore?
I only heard the later half of the debate and the commentators said Obama was stronger in the first. McCain seemed to talk a lot more and was more forceful in the parts that I saw. Obama seemed to concede a bit too much by saying he agreed with McCain a few too many times.
But overall, foreign policy isn't going to decide this election. Domestic policy is going to be Obama's home turf and he will have an advantage in those debates. So even if McCain was better tonight, I just don't think it will matter. If Obama is even mediocre in the domestic debates, he will win in November
I'm surfing the channels, I like the "Obama doesn't understand" line turned a lot of people off.
As far as the expectations game goes I think it's a W for Obama. But beyond that, I am extremely surprised at how good of a debate it was. Toe to toe tweleve rounds.
Barack is the new Jackie Robinson. America wasn't ready for a black professional baseball player, Jackie (and my father's boy Larry Doby) were just that much better then everyone else. Barack is that much better then McCain, and ready or not he's gonna be our next President
i'm just glad that the GZA got a shout-out on the pages of the almighty atlantic! ...thanks coates
I really like Obama's calm and thoughtfulness. I'm reassured that he would talk to people and make considered decisions. But I have an advanced degree and live in San Francisco, so whatever I say comes from the perspective of a fake American (regardless of the pre-Revolutionary War roots on both sides of my family).
I'm not sure it was such a slam dunk for Obama. I think it was a W for McCain. McCain was the one that was reeling coming into this. His Veep turns out to be a delusional ditz with a lipstick wearing pig for a pet. His flip flop on the whole no debate I'm working in Washington, no I'm going to the debate I thought painted him as ineffective. There is still no signed bill, yes?? So the person who looked the worse going in was McCain.
I thought he came out somewhat cleaned up. He put Obama on the defensive and Obama accepted the role rather than going after the old man.
Ok, what's up with dems and this whole ear mark crap. As far as I'm concerned that's a line of crap. One man's junk is anothers treasure, yes? The inability to bring money back to your district is will cost you dearly. so why does everyone run from this pig?? We do want our representatives to bring money back to the districts, yes???
Far as I'm concerned, this one goes to McCain with Obama simply get out boxed by a veteran. I don't think it hurts him though cause he held his own.
That's just my 7trillion cent.
Note Jim Lehrer's comment: "I'm trying to get you two to talk to each other."
He was clearly picking up the vibe....
Having to LOOK UP and making eye contact is submissive. McCain will be damned if he does it.
A really old short white man making eye contact with a taller younger black male must be weird - for lack of a better term - for McCain. He's probably never imagined he'd be in this situation.
His contempt is no accident.
I thought it was good debate and mostly a tie. I don't think it will change anyone's mind one way or another, except for people who were leaning toward Obama, this might push them over.
I thought the most telling comment or comments, I think he made them twice, concerned how Americans know John McCain and that he is a Maverick. He's right. Americans do know John McCain. And the John McCain that everyone knows, is down 5-7 points to a guy Americans know less well. And John McCain showed us nothing new. He was John McCain. Barack Obama, who people know less well, showed he could go toe-to-toe with John McCain and win or lose, look presidential. I think many people will have seen that for the first time.
I have no idea who won or lost. I thought they both did fine. Winning a presidential debate is like winning the third inning of a baseball game. Important, but how many games are truly determined by the third inning.
Now on to something much more important. Where the hell was John McCain's flag pin, and why don't all those right wingers care?
Adolphus writes: "Now on to something much more important. Where the hell was John McCain's flag pin, and why don't all those right wingers care?"
He was using it to keep his foreskin retracted. It's just an old superstition - he does it in all of his debates.
Now on to something much more important. Where the hell was John McCain's flag pin, and why don't all those right wingers care?
It was decided that we had to take a shot for that, and we nearly got through the rest of the debate without taking another shot. But McCain came through in the final seconds with a POW reference.
Another note, I can't remember a time when so many of my peers (mid 20's) watched a presidential debate. I guess we were much younger the last time, but I wonder when was the last time this age group have shown such an interest in an election. My apartment complex was full of large groups of people in their apartments just glued to the debate. It wasn't until afterward that everybody start getting ready to head out for the night. This is just anecdotal, but I'd love to see how the ratings breakdown compares to previous debates.
WTF was going on there w/ the body language? Seriously, my in-laws are African American and they think McCain is purposely dissing Obama by refusing to acknowledge him AS A HUMAN BEING, let alone a viable competitor.
My mom, a 79-year-old white female former Hillary supporter (now Obama supporter) noticed this waaaay before I did. And was not happy.
The old folks, they want to see manners. No eye contact with your opponent? Contemptuous display of "you don't uderstand" 27 times? Yeah, I think this will not go over well with the senior citizen crowd.
Hm, just checked Yahoo photos to see about the eye contact issue. It looks like McCain did look at Obama at least initially but most photos look like he's avoiding eye contact. Dismissive. My question is, how should O respond to this? How does it look if he lets this slight pass, and what can he do in response without looking angry/petty?
I'm simply not understanding how McCain 'won'...
Well, maybe. If you believe that utilizing lies and intentional mistruths and circuitous dodging of answering direct questions counts.
I am not saying that O was spot on, because he left room in a few areas, but by no means, did he lose either.
Just because we all had low expectations for M, doesn't mean that we have to capitulate to the he 'won' meme because he didn't call O a c*nt on live tv.
The thing about this debate is that Obama did exactly what he needed to do, which is to demonstrate conclusively that he has thought deeply about the problems we face and that the country will be safe in his administration. He looked presidential.
My wife it totally non-political, and is not sure if she is even going to vote, and for whom she would if she voted. Bottom line is that after sitting through a third of this debate, I know for certain that she won't vote for McCain.
Sorry guys... I did not hit post three times. Please excuse the triple post.
Apologies.
GZA? Mobb Deep? can a brother get some Black Moon or Jeru?
I thought McCain got his point across better, and I thought Obama was at times rambling. But McCain's manners and mannerisms were horrible and mostly undermined the stuff he talked about. And Obama showed some a lot of um, human-ness, or better, connected with people.
Anytime Obama said "what Americans want" "what Americans need." ". . . for the middle class." McCain had little response. He was too busy extracting himself from his party and talking about Washington corruption or senatorial minutia that people don't really care about. It's like McCain was talking to the media and the beltway, soundbite shit, and not the American people.
I'd say Obama won, 60/40. But McCain did awfully well. I mean, if you think about it, this >>> any Republican debate performance in the past 20 years (Bush, Dole, Bush's father). Still though, Obama was better on tone and won most every argument. Sort of a draw on Iraq, and both guys looked stupid pretending they were going to still be able to cut taxes and pay for all the crap they want. Prediction: about 90% of the stuff Obama's been promising will never make it through Congress or never even make it into Congress.
Asher:
That bugged me, too. Poor Lehrer had to ask the question like five times, and never got a straight answer from either candidate. Gents, just admit the disaster put a wrench in your gears. We can totally relate! It put a wrench in all of our gears as well.
But I have to give props to Jim Lehrer. He didn't let up on it until time became a factor. This was a good question. Somebody should have answered it.
For the record, I don't think McCain is a racist. I think he'd be contemptuous and dismissive of Obama if he were white. (Height, the whole "I'm a bipartisan reformer and he's a phony" back and forth, Obama is not a veteran and thus not a true patriot, and a certain disbelief that this newby is being raised to his level.)
So, I listen without body language and the contempt certainly came through on the radio; sounds like the contempt and "Obama just doesn't understand" schtick combined with weird body language was a negative for undecideds.
Also as Nate Silver pointed out: there were 8 sections of the debate and Obama "won" 3 of them per the punidts. However, those 3 included the 2 top issues, the economy and Iraq. Pundits may keep a little score card and then say O 3, M 4, one tie, so McCain wins! Regular voters are looking for who's good on their top issues, and seems that was Obama. (McCain's only decisive win was on "spends more time attacking his opponent;" the other differences were slight.)
I'll give both men a little break on not specifying what they'd cut because it's very hard to say today how things will look economically in 4 months, whether disastrous or toddling along. We don't know what the bailout will be or how the economy will react to it--don't want to commit to cutting a tough program, take that hit, then find things going better than expected.
Also per Andrew, with tape to prove it, McCain managed to say "horseshit" on national tv twice!
Eh, i don't think he said horseshit. It's not clear at all since he said it under his breath, but Sounded more like "of course not". that's what i thought last night. Give the man some credit, McCain's not that stupid
Andrew's got his hatchet out today i guess
Sorry guys... I did not hit post three times. Please excuse the triple post.
Apologies.
Folks
Read Fallows-- this is 1960, 1980, 1992-- if the challenger passes the "Commander in Chief" threshold when people are pissed at the status quo-- it is tough for the incumbent party to win.
Remember, people listening on the radio thought Nixon won the 1960 debate. McCain's lack of eye contact is starting to be discussed by the pundits like the Al Gore sighs. Who looked more presidential, folks?
McCain needed to win this like a boxer wins a round 10-8 (see 1st Kerry-Bush debate). Most call it 10-10; some 10-9 McCain, some 10-9 Obama.
My fear is that it will be considered a win if Palin is able to make noun-verb agreements. But I hope the relatively high level of the presidential debate will make the VP bar high.
Lehrer won the debate. McCain and Obama backed down on the bailout question and I immediately tuned out.
Give the man some credit, McCain's not that stupid
He did call his wife a cunt in front of a bunch of people, so I'm not 100% sure he didn't let his temper get the best of him.
Sorry guys... I did not hit post three times. Please excuse the triple post.
You are a terrible person and... just kidding. The problem with the Atlantic website comments is if you post and then hit refresh to see new comments it reposts your comment. You need to go back to the blog and re-click on the comments section.
"10:55 I keep hearing this "Obama kept agreeing with McCain, he should stop that next debate." Obama should not listen to these people. He got his licks in, and he did them looking directly at McCain. He should not be dragged into petulance."
Word.
9:51 The dagger of venom again--"That is a strategic mistake..."
Finally! I thought I was the only one who'd noticed (and revelled in) this.
Obama pwned McCain on the difference between tactics and strategy.
Not content to school him on the issues, he demonstrated superior mastery of the English language.
Obama is like something out of a bygone Golden Age when intellect actually mattered.