I have been reading comments from conservatives for days now that say something like "all you elitist liberals are underestimating her and you're gonna pay the price for that." Whenever I see that I try to get some specifics about what exactly liberals are doing that would constitute an underestimation of Palin and on every single occasion, I get no serious response at all. A lot of conservatives seem to be operating along the lines of a meta-narrative that has almost nothing to do with what liberals are actually saying. I am not sure yet whether that is a deliberate strategy or simple delusion.
« My last post on strawmen and dishonesty (ok, so probably not) | Main | Michelle Obama--"uppity" » Comment of the century"04 Sep 2008 03:43 pm
From Brent:
Comments (41)
A lot of people are talking about Palin as conservatives the way I'm talking about J.T. O'Sullivan as a Niners fan. 
"Comment of the century"??? That may be the exaggeration of the century! It was a pretty good comment though!
I think we all know the answer. It is both.
Brent calls himself a liberal? If so, he should know by now that Republicans pride themselves on playing the victim card, so it is delusion. Did he not hear Mittens Romney last night?
She's a formidable contender, a force to be reckoned with.
Dear Brent, As a conservative, may I say that you are right. By all means, when liberals and their fellow travellers refer to Gov. Palin as a bimbo, or her family as slack jawed, you should believe that. Joe Biden doesn't need to prepare at all - should probably take a long nap every day in the week before the debates just to conserve his strength for explaining afterwards how he was able to wipe the floor with such a pitiful pretense of an opponent. She just read from a teleprompter after all, so ignore the enthusisasm and energy from Republicans - its all desperation. You all are doing fine - stay on message about her go-go boots, the scandals in her family (maybe you should revisit the still unanswered questions of Trigs birth). Nothing to see here with Palin, move along :) Not too sincerely, David
"whether that is a deliberate strategy or simple delusion" Why not both?
"A lot of conservatives seem to be operating along the lines of a meta-narrative that has almost nothing to do with what liberals are actually saying. I am not sure yet whether that is a deliberate strategy or simple delusion." Man, where have you BEEN for the last eight years?
The Century! he clinched it so fast.. I give up now. :-) I guess it wouldn't count as underestimation if Palin really is unable to win support beyond the Republican base, or if she really doesn't have anything substantive to say in terms of national policy or foreign policy. However, the point about meta-narratives is a good one. I think it's a deliberate strategy to paint Democrats as .. well, you know.
Wow. I come back from lunch to find my comment "front paged." This must be what it feels like to be a published author. Ya'll betta recognize.
By all means, when liberals and their fellow travellers refer to Gov. Palin as a bimbo, or her family as slack jawed, you should believe that. To whom exactly are you attributing those remarks about Palin? What do you mean by fellow travelers?
There has been some intentional downplaying of Palin's experience. Anderson Cooper asked Obama about the executive experience issue re: Palin vs. him. Obama talked only about how small the town she ran as mayor is, and neglected to mention her time as a governor. That's a fair enough tactic for Obama, but it's also fair to turn it around and say Palin is being intentionally underestimated, her experience minimized, and you're gonna regret doing so. There's also the whole meme that Palin's speech wasn't a big deal because she didn't write it herself. We on the right see that as saying "she's really not that impressive. All she did was read words off a teleprompter." We say "fine, go ahead and say she's not impressive," and then start looking forward to the debate with Biden. And of course, there's the less substantive but no less grating condescension from Kos commenters & the like. Gawker had a post up a day or so ago recognizing the small mindedness of many of those attacking Palin & her family, titled "How Bristol and Levi Reveal Us [blue state liberals] As the Real Rednecks." It's of course easier, more fun and more cathartic to focus on the shallow mean-spirited stuff like this than to take on the substantive criticisms of Palin, but that’s how it is. I'm starting to wonder, though, if the right's sensitivity to "class condescension" from the left is a lot like the left's ability to spot "covert" racism from the right. Sure it's there, but probably not as much as the beholder thinks it is. As a conservative, southern, Christian male (demographically speaking, a prime target for racist dog whistles), I'm dumbfounded when Josh Marshall at TPM finds racism in every McCain ad that has a white woman in it. I mean, is he serious, a fool, or just completely in the tank for Obama? I imagine that's how you on the left feel when legit questions about a 20-month governor's ability to lead the nation are met with cries of "elitist!" Everyone comes to the table with their own notions of how the other side thinks and really feels. The best way to prevent those notions from clouding political discourse, I think, is to try and assume that those on the other side of the aisle aren’t stupid or evil, but just view the world differently and have different priorities.
Dear David, As a liberal, may I say that you are wrong and, even worse, confusing. Are liberals supposed to be pansy arugula eaters reading feminist tropes at our liberal arts, ivory tower universities while sipping organic white wines, or are we supposed to be a bunch of sexist knuckle draggers photoshopping Palin's head onto a bikini body? I mean, can you pick a caricature and stick with it already? And don't worry about Joe Biden. I'm sure that his 30 plus years in the Senate have taught him that it's best to prep for a debate. I'm sure he'll manage to sneak in a nap or two somewhere between now and October 2nd. And don't sell your own candidate short. She read from a broken teleprompter. But then again, she could have spent thirty minutes alternately chanting "Hollywood Liberals" "East Coast Elites" "Barack Obama" and "Drill baby drill" and gotten pretty much the same response from that crowd. Your side is also doing fine - stay on message about her "executive experience", the scandals in her family which you will dutifully ignore until it happens to the daughter of a Democratic candidate, and try your best to keep her away from that LIBERAL MEDIA. After all, we wouldn't want America finding out that she's to the political right of Bush/Cheney. Nothing to see here with Palin, move along :) Sincerely (the sarcasm comes through just as well without the "not so"), Chris
Palin represents everything that a middle-class America white soccer Mom wants to be. She's a good mom (or at least represented as such), she's got a successful career, she speaks her mind but is still a lady, she's got a loving husband, and she worked her way up from the bottom while staying true to her working-class roots and God. Palin is the Super Mom that's got it all and has "shown them all", yet remained true to herself. (Or at least this is the storyline.) The soccer Mom's don't get Hillary--they didn't go to Ivy league schools and they've never run with the Big Boys. The soccer Mom's hate the professorial "elitists" (see, Michelle Obama) who (they feel) dismiss their working-class lives as "white trash". And the soccer Mom's don't like the rich ladies-who-lunch either because they don't understand the realities of raising children and making a living (see, Cindy McCain). Palin is the antidote to the pent-up frustration of this quietly disaffected bunch. She's "classy" (note quotation marks), feisty, smart (but not in "that snotty, condescending way") and "like one of us". More importantly, she's hasn't crossed class lines and become one of "them"--she's still a gun-totin', middle-class, God-fearin' girl. She's everything these women want to be, and everything they want their daughters to be. Ever wonder why Gretchen Wilson's atrocious "Redneck Woman" song was such a hit? It wasn't because only rednecks listened to it... Anyway, this is all IMHO, of course. And it doesn't say one iota about her actual experience, which is frighteningly scant. But I think this is one of the intangibles that have conservatives so fired up about her.
Sorry about the double post. Don't know what happened there.
Thanks for your considered response T-web. I would say that in the past few days of posing this question, yours is the first real attempt to address this issue that I have read. That being said, I would say that you are talking about something different than I am. If the argument is that people are underestimating her ability to run the country, then Obama's comment can certainly be interpreted that way. But what I am really talking about is the sort of comment David makes above which is a slightly cruder version of the argument that Reihan Salam is making. Specifically, they seem to be arguing that either there already is, or they expect there to be, some sort of push among front line liberals to denigrate her based upon the assumption that she is stupid and a less than able campaigner. That is essentially the characterization of the debate that the McCain camp is trying to put out there right now. Now, I don't doubt that if one wants to dig down into the swamps of Democratic Underground or something, they will find some pretty vile sentiment. Hell, I have even seen some pretty elaborate rape fantasies developed by commenters on sites that I used to respect. But, by and large, the vast percentage of commentary that I have read from the progressive blogosphere and that includes Kos, has focused on digging into and criticizing her record as Governer and Mayor or making the argument that she is not really prepared to be put into the position of the VP. I would posit that that is not due to underestimation but is rather a result of taking her seriously as a candidate and a force in this race.
I think a good rule of thumb would be for people accusing left-wing critics of Palin to actually name specific critics and the specific criticisms that are unfair or below the belt.
TNC, Your main page is messed up. It only shows the most recent post (Michelle Obama and "uppity"), and no comments are enabled.
Freddie, requiring conservatives to reply to specific criticisms is below the belt. You expect them to enter reality now? "The soccer Mom's don't get Hillary--they didn't go to Ivy league schools and they've never run with the Big Boys." Wow, I never realized Clinton's base don't like her, which is why so many of them stuck by her even after Obama had the nomination locked up. I mean, I did emphasize how Clinton's base was smaller than people realize, but the women who like Clinton absolutely and completely love her, adore her and identify with her struggles.
Well, for what it's worth, I think a lot of the commentary on Palin has been, well, extremely condescending and dismissive. See e.g. basically the last fifty posts at samefacts.org. Now, I find some of the posts there screamingly hilarious. But then, I live in Los Angeles. And hope that some day I'll get a chance to move to a real city.
Reality Man, I'm talking about the Republican base, who likes Palin and doesn't get Hillary--not Democratic Hillary supporters. Hillary supporters lover her fervently for sure. If they vote for McC/Palin I suspect it will be to spite Obama for what they perceive as a slight. I doubt they'd vote for Palin on her right-wing record. Like Steinen said today, the only thing those two have in common is a chromosome.
T-web and David, I can't speak for every left of center person. But I've been reading comments threads like this one and emails being passed from person to person a lot over the past several days. I've seen some condensation. But I've also seen a lot of people who are focusing in on issues of public import and not in a condensending way. I seem to remember a question Matt Yglesias asked the other day and the response thereto; he didn't mention a pregnant daughter, but his interlocutor, a Republican operative did. This is far from a single example. I appreciate your concern for our well being. Now what was Ms Palin's position on the bridge to nowhere before she changed her position on the bridge to nowhere? (This is a question about character and honesty, as well as public monies which were spent in Alaska, just not on the bridge). How do we account for the differences between Senator McCain and Candidate McCain? (This is a question about his character and judgement; it comes in several versions) How do McCain/Palin intend to govern and what are the forseeable consequences of those proposals? (This is a question about the substance of their positions, not one which is condesending). I find it difficult to imagine that a campaign as well run as Obama/Biden will not focus on questions of substance, and do so pretty effectively. But then I live in Texas, and I've heard some very dodgy notions adbvanced about, say, the teaching of science in the public schools.
The first smear I heard, and it was repeated online by Chris Bowers, by at least one commentor here, dozens on Democratic Underground, and in person by a friend, was that Palin is such an empty pantsuit, she doesn't even know what the Vice President does. It was clearly taken out of context, all in an effort to portray Palin as a moron. The first warning I heard about underestimating Palin was on a few liberal blogs, Sirota said the following on Open Left "But we underestimate her - and the McCain operation - at our peril. "
The first smear I heard, and it was repeated online by Chris Bowers, by at least one commentor here, dozens on Democratic Underground, and in person by a friend, was that Palin is such an empty pantsuit, she doesn't even know what the Vice President does. Fair enough. I never thought that was a particularly appropriate criticism as it was clear to me that what she waas trying to say is that she didn't think the VP position was necessarily a very meaningful one. Moreover, I actually have to agree with her on that score. But I guess I never had the same read on that particular distortion. IMO the quote was meant to count against her qualification for the position, not to suggest that she lacked intelligence. Indeed Steinem uses precisely that quote to make almost exactly that point in her article in the LA Times this morning. I don't think Steinem thinks Palin is stupid. I think she believes, among other things, that she is unqualified. There really is a pretty big difference and to some extent what I see happening in this debate now is a deliberate attempt to conflate the two.
Probably the most civil thread that I've seen. It's fake, right?
Some of it is clearly a deliberate strategy. They want to emphasize the pregnant daughter and the silly fabrication that Bristow is the real mother of the youngest child so they can play the victim card, play the gender card, and, most importantly, change the topic from real issues, like her lies about her record, her husband's anti-Americanism, and her abuse of power in Troopergate.
I viewed it as a clear slam on her intellect, knowing the Constitutional duties of the VP is high school civics. The tone by the left was Palin is dumber than a 10th grader. Here is another one, courtesy of a liberal, feminist site, from Kurtz at WAPO
Liberal radio host Ed Schultz was telling listeners Monday that Palin was an "empty pantsuit" who had set off a "bimbo alert." Well that is certainly unambiguous. Schulz would have never occurred to me but coming from him, I guess his comments don't surprise me much.
I won't rule out the possibility that I may be deluding myself, but the feeling that Palin is being "underestimated" comes from people deriding her qualifications and implying that she's "not ready" for the national stage.
I don't know, I heard a lot of liberals in the first days after the announcement predicting that she'd be such an embarrassment that she'd be dropped from the ticket by the end of the convention, or within a few weeks. (For the record, I did not personally believe this would happen.) I think that does count as an underestimation-- they hadn't realized Palin's actual strength, which is her great competence at spouting red-meat buffoonery to rile up the hardcore party faithful. On the other hand, I don't think anyone is missing this now. It doesn't mean she's a good pick or that she'll actually help McCain in the long run, but she's probably at least canny enough to keep herself from getting fired. If she isn't elected she has a future on Fox News.
Marty Peretz, editor of The New Republic: If Hillary Clinton or Nancy Pelosi had been decked out like soccer mom Sarah last night the G.O.P. would have called them tramps. Why, a hem two inches below the knee! So risque! I giver her her due: she is pretty like a cosmetics saleswoman at Macy's. Let's face the truth: If Bristol were Joe Biden's daughter or, worse yet, Barack Obama's, the epithet "slut" would be on everyone's tongue in St. Paul. But since she is Palin's daughter she has been treated as if she were a saint, maybe Mother Theresa incarnate.
So let me see if I have this right Conservatives: Th eonly comment Obama or nayone form his campaign has made about Bristol Palin was his very classy comment on Monday. But he is acocuntable for every radio host or blogger who supports him. And the fact that Andrew Sullivan (and guys just cuz you disown him doesn't make him a liberal, he is now what he has always been, a Tory through and through) is going off on every conspiracy theory about her means the Obama campaign is? Is that what your saying? Good to know. I'll remember this next time Ann Coulter opens her mouth and inserts both feet. Or next time Red State goes off the deep end (which is probably next time they post), or next time a Republican Congressman uses code for N*** about Obama. I guess that means John McCain is reposnsible for all of that.
Marty Peretz, editor of The New Republic: I thought we were talking about liberals who were demeaning Palin, not conservatives.
Doug's comment is the first I've seen that looks actually substantiated. Even still, the fact that it isn't a direct quote makes me nervous. Nevertheless, I accept it.
Sally Quinn, Washington Post reporter: "Is she prepared for the all-consuming nature of the job? She is the mother of five children, one of them a four-month-old with Down Syndrome. Her first priority has to be her children. When the phone rings at three in the morning and one of her children is really sick what choice will she make? I'm the mother of only one child, a special needs child who is grown now. I know how much of my time and energy I devoted to his care. He always had to be my first priority. Of course women can be good mothers and have careers at the same time. I've done both. Yes, other women in public office have children. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has five children, but she didn't get heavily involved in politics until they were older. A mother's role is different from a father's." Yep, when foreign policy disaster strikes at 3 A.M. and one of her kids is sick, she'll ignore the disaster and tend to the kid
And Asher again, I'll direct you to my comment above. Sally Quinn is not the Obama campaign, she isn't even a Democratic spokesmen. Doug has a quote from a Radio Personality and you have a quote from essentially a high brow gossip columnist. If we're going to base anything on what people in the media say lets bring up Ann Coulter, Michael Savage, and so on and so on. Is that really where you want to go? Personally I'm only concerned about things the McCain campaign and their spokesmen say vs. things the Obama campaign and their spokesmen say, otherwise we're into an endless search for the lowest common denominators on each side.
Uh, how has this thread gone on so long, without any mention of the other Atlantic blogger. He of the "I demand medical records from the birth" demand? And his description of Palin's family as 'bizarre'? As far as I can tell, he has been the most intemperate and irresponsible of any of the mainstream journalists...but maybe that can't be mentioned on this web-site.
Rab, Do you really believe Andrew's a lefty?
Uh, yes I do. At least in the sense (which is the sense that matters for election coverage) that he is a prominent Barack Obama supporter. Moreover, imo a conservative would not support Barack Obama because he is the most 'liberal' candidate we've had in at least the last 30 years. It's the same with Hillary supporters going for Palin. No true Hillary supporter would vote for Palin because they stand for diametrically opposed positions. I'll acknowledge he's somewhat unclassifiable at this point given that he used to be a harsh Clinton critic, etc., but my read on 'The Conservative Soul' is basically "be skeptical about what Andrew is skeptical about, and certain about what he is." He's a great blogger, and he has interesting things to say, but I do not think of him as a conservative. And certainly, for all intents and purposes, he is a liberal in this election cycle. Why wouldn't you classify him as a lefty given his (in my view) intemperate advocacy of Obama?
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On "deliberate strategy or simple delusion" it is both. One of the best comment by any credible reporter was that McCain has no organization of the ground. The related but secondary factor is the need to encourage the base to save his campaign, ain't going to happen at this late date.
The reason for those comments is that they have nothing useful to offer the broad population that is deemed relevant. The Republican push the default button and up pops Rove; folks are kinda tired of this stuff. The Republican plays the hand they have which consist of a small deck that essentially is negative; i.e., it offers nothing but hollow complaints of the opposition.
It is this simple, this is not in the meme or narrative world; this is gutter politics with lipstick!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by ADLEED | September 4, 2008 3:56 PM