"It's like them never giving a Nobel Prize to Tolstoy," said Jacob Weisberg, editor-in-chief of the Slate Group and a correspondent for Slate.com. "It doesn't make Tolstoy look bad, it makes the Nobel Prize look bad."
Weisberg, who has been an ardent supporter of "The Wire," added, "It's sort of proof if you needed any that the Emmys are not something that should be taken seriously."
I think race is a factor here, but not one acting in singular stand-alone fashion. It was race, drugs and Baltimore all working together. B-More just isn't considered a sexy city. Furthermore, there were structural things. People loved the Sopranos because, in the end, it was about family. Plus the ensemble nature of the show made it hard to fix on one person. It's crazy but unlike most Wire fans, my favorite season is two. I think completely flipping shit and showing how drugs isn't just a "black" problem was incredible. Furthermore it was just beautifully acted. Ziggie was incredible. But as Frank Sobatka would say, Fuck the wall.
UPDATE: A few commenters have highlighted Homicide to note that Baltimore isn't a killer for Emmys. But as a side about the race thing--this isn't about one element "acting in singular stand-alone fashion." It's many things all at once. Race and location being two of them.
The Beautiful Struggle: A Father, Two Sons, and an Unlikely Road to Manhood 
I agree with you fully about season 2, it definitely doesn't get enough love when people rank their favorite seasons. Initially, i missed the focus on the street, but i think the pacing and story arc of season 2 is the best the series has to offer. It and season 4 top my list.
You're right. I shall no longer consider the Emmies a prize worthy of esteem.
My problem with season 2 is the hoops it jumped through to get the Major Crimes team back together. It was the one thing in the whole run of the show that totally fractured my willing suspension of disbelief.
The excellent crime drama Homicide, also set in Baltimore, was similarly neglected. Hmmmmmmmm?
But seriously, the Emmys are a popularity contest within the industry. Sometimes they get it right, and sometimes they don't.
At least it's not as bad as the Grammys. The Beatles won one Grammy, the Rolling Stones zero, and Christopher Cross has five of them. That's what happens when studio musicians and technicians are allowed to decide these things.
People loved the Sopranos because, in the end, it was about family white people.
Fixed.
Really Mike? I would think it was Omar flying out of that apartment window Superman-style during a shoot out in season five.
Season four was the best.
Sign me up for the season 2 bandwagon! What was going down on the docks is a part of the war on drugs that you don't see or hear much about and Simon took it on in an honest and (mostly) unsentimental way. The Emmy voters are idiots for not giving the Wire its due.
I hear ya about Simon and season 5, but the media deserved, and continues to deserve, to get its ass blistered. If I had one criticism about season 5 it's that Simon made Gus a little too perfect, but the issue of a Black male character being a little too smart and conscientious is one I'm willing to live with.
HR
I don't know about the hate on B-More - Homicide: Life on the Street won 4 Emmy's and was nominated for 17
It's a cable thing. A lot of good shows like Six Feet Under, Curb Your Enthusiasm, Dexter, L-Word, have gotten the shaft. Soprano's is an exception to the rule
"People loved the Sopranos because, in the end, it was about family white people."
I don't agree with this. Its difficult to talk about this without sounding like a dick. But the reason The Wire didn't catch on with the masses is because it went right over their head. Most people didn't have the patience to get into the show. For one, it moves fairly slowly, and the plots take forever to unwind. Also, there are not as many clues as to what characters are referring to. You really have to pay attention to the dialougue. So, The Wire goes over most people's heads, I'm afraid. This goes for the people that vote for the Emmys as well.
For the record, I think season 3 is the best.
In all honesty, who cares? It was great while it lasted, we got 5 (almost) full seasons out of it and most people with any taste eventually came around to it. My vote goes to season 4, the way things went down for those kids was downright devastating....you could actually FEEL Carver's sense of powerlessness by the end, it was so damn real.
Although maybe that doesn't hold up. Mad Men is just as slow and dialouge driven, and that won last night. Deservingly so, I'd say...
Season 4, no question. I loved the focus on the kids and the schools.
Season 2 was good, but I felt the international drug cartel was too "Hollywood." The Greek and assorted cronies felt like they belonged in a Bond flick and didn't have the authenticity and depth that I'd come to expect from characters in the Wire.
Stacy,
I think it's both. I think it's impossible to ignore the racial factor, but you're right--what made The Wire so good was the fact that the writers forced you to be patient while they told a complex story, and that they were determined not to insult the intelligence of the audience. Every season was like a really good novel that rewards you for paying attention.
The Emmys, however, reward great moments, not drawn out stories. The Wire never had a chance with them, which is just as well. The Emmys have made some really shitty choices in the past, after all.
@PhillyGuy: agreed 100%
It reflects poorly on the Emmys, but who really cares? Years from now, people are going to be asking themselves why this show never won an Emmy and what the hell was wrong with people. The Oscars haven't exactly been great at picking good movies, either.
Still, FWIW Mad Men season 1 was deserving of best drama and was honestly better than Wire season 5.
Yeah, giving Season 5 the Emmy would have been more of an lifetime achievement award. Season 1 of Mad Men was a bit better, in my opinion...
The Wire also probably suffered from the fact that it's best to view in marathon stretches, one episode right after another, rather than waiting a week and likely forgetting small/important details. DVDs of the show give ultimate bang for the buck
Wire? Complex?
If people can follow
- Lost
- X-Files
- Heroes
- Soap Operas
- The Sopranos
They can certainly follow The Wire.
The real issue here is that the tastemakers in Hollywood didn't watch the show.
And I think we all know why they didn't watch.
*doesn't mention Obama in this post*
Stacy makes a good point; in The Wire, they were completely willing to have three episodes or a twelve episode season that were all set-up, where you had to pay attention to all of the details, but that the payoff for doing so might not be for another four or five episodes. That doesn't fit well with the Emmy's judging format; iirc, the voters see just a selection from the season, like highlights or the greatest hits. And to make it worse, the climax of the arc often isn't nearly as powerful if you don't remember all the pieces. Ziggy's demise isn't nearly as powerful if you haven't seen every little scene of him being a lovable screw-up up until then. Same with Stringer in 3. I can't think of many scenes from the series that were great, but self-contained.
Season three is my favorite, and two is my least favorite, but I think part of the problem with season two was trying to fit it in with the stories already established in the first season. I suspect it might hold up better for me personally on a rewatch, and it's definitely true that Sobotka gets one of the best arcs of the entire series.
I think one thing that hrt was Season 5 was the weakest so couldn;t really give it the awards.
Though, some ways Emmys are liek Gold Gloves in baseball, you start winning them the season aftre you deserved it.
I'd vote 4 as favorite as well with 2and 3 close for 2nd place. I really like the way the pulled the docks and the unexamined parts of the War on Drugs into it. Season 3 gets props for the end of the Stringer Bell story. One of the great characters in TV history. I think the wya his story is handled as one of many wihtin the larger drama is what seperates The Wire from Standard Hollywood fare. In the typical stroytellign method you'd have Stringer and McNulty as 2 stars with the entire focus of the story on the one super crook and the one super cop who brings him down, You know you might cast say Denzel Washington and Russell Crowe:-) The Wire on the other hand shows that the "Game" as the real focus, the players change but the Game goes on.
I think a big part of why actors like Michael K Williams were never considered for the big acting awards is that there was a subconscious (or very conscious, I'm not sure which) assumption that because these actors were black, they automatically had a familiarity with the roles that made them less of a challenge. Omar was an exceedingly complex character, but if you think ahead of time that Michael K Williams must be pretty familiar with being a thug, since he's black and all, then you're not going to give him his due.
Same with the kids in Season 4, or Idris Elba, or the guy who played Avon. If you think they're playing a natural role, then they're not acting, and you don't have to give them an award.
It's all total bullshit, but clearly no one on the selection committee (or however they pick these things) thought through their own biases.
Comparing The Wire to Lost, X-Files or Heroes, in terms of complexity, completely misses the point I think.
F**k the Emmys. Goddamn Yankton c**ksuckers!
Alli,
I think that is a very, very good point. One that I hadn't given much thought to, honestly. I remember finding out that Idris Elba was British. My head nearly exploded.
@Don,
The Greek & Co. are Bond villains? I gotta disagree. They may have been 'puched up' a bit but I thought they were very, very plausible.
And Season 4 was the best. Randy & Carver's closing scene in Episode 49 alone puts it over the top.
I loved how in Season 5 one of the homeless guys living under the overpass (when McNulty and the reporter are both skulking around, piecing together their elaborate lies) is the long-haired, goateed guy who worked at the docks up in the office that controlled traffic. He sat next to Ziggy, and Ziggy once put a photo of his cock on the guy's computer. I forget his name, but he's one of at least two Season 2 longshoremen (Nick being the other) who pops up to remind us of them.
He's sitting by a fire, and he's got a dog.
It is hard for me to choose between Season 2 and 4. I like the international aspect of the drug trade, in Season 2. And I like the personal, and political powerlessness on display in Season 4 (the Game is rigged, all the way up and all the way down.)
Season 4 was even slower than Season 2 - in that sense, Season 2 was better for me, personally.
But I fully understand if others rate Season 4 higher.
BTW - if Mad Men was better than Season 5 of The Wire (since Season 5 was weak), what about previously? What won a lot of awards, in the previous years, that there really is no argument that Wire should have won?
@Shawn: "Bond villains" is overstating it, you're right. What I meant was that the characters themselves felt very Hollywood. They're plausible: of course people like this exist, they have to—someone's got to get the product from Colombia to America, after all. But they didn't feel like real people, they were more stereotypical: cool, brutal mafioso types. We've seen characters like them in many movies. In that sense, they were very unlike other characters in The Wire.
@JC:
No argument from me re previous Wire snubs. I was just commenting that Mad Men was the right choice this year, but that doesn't exonerate anyone from screwing it up the las 4 years.
Also, I don't think season 5 was "weak." Compared to other seasons of the Wire, maybe, but not compared to other television shows. I'd take Wire: season 5 over 99% of the television shows made last year.
No, it's like never giving a Nobel to Henry James. Tolstoy wasn't that great.
Don:
Criminals like "the Greek" and his crew do exist, and the potrayal was real enough. I could take you to some social clubs and coffee shops around my way where these guys congregate. I also can't think of any movie or tv show that had characters quite like them.
As for the Emmies, well, some people just don't "get" the Wire, for whatever reason. I think that might be most people. I don't think people "got" the more interesting aspects of the Sopranos either. I think they just rooted for Tony and like to laugh at fat, stupid, Italian Stereotypes.
tinisoli-
He put the picture up on Maui's computer (remember, Maui, the guy Beadie goes to eventually to try and get info from, because they used to be lovers or somesuch) - but Johnny was the guy with the huge beard. I can't remember which one of them ended up in the camp in season 5, though.
Sally forth with such pronouncements! 'Tis truth, and truth will not abandon you unmanned.
Ziggy killed season 2 for me. He was a completely unlikable, uncompelling character, and he dominated a lot of screen time.
Joel:
I initially, didn't like Ziggy, but I think Simon & Co. did a good job of devleoping his character and by the end of Season 2 I eventually came around to him.
I wrote a post about this a few months back that Jeffrey Goldberg linked to; it's linked through my name below.
As for the Emmys, well we know they are a joke. If Boston Legal is up for any award you know said ceremony is no longer credible. I also can't believe Don Draper got jobbed for best actor.
As for the Wire, I loved season 2 also, but season three was my favorite. This past season might not have been the best, but the second to last episode alone deserved an award for writing. Peleancanos is a genius, and I literally cried at the end between Bubbles and Michael.
Citizen Kane didn't win the Oscar for best picture either though. No one will remember who won the Emmys in a couple years. The Wire will be viewed for decades.
Joel,
I felt the same way when I watched season 2 the first time, but strangely enough, his character grew on me when I rewatched the season. It is true that he is completely unlikable but I disagree that he is uncompelling. Frank Sobotka clearly cared more about the longshoremen than he did about his own family and Ziggy was the direct result of that. He could never live up to his father and had no idea what to do with himself, so he essentially became a clown. In fact, the subtlety of that storyline is exactly the type of writing that characterized the show and is what makes it worth rewatching.
Mad Men is a fun show, but I don't think it is quite as great as it is made out to be. While the show does provide a bit of a historical and sociological lesson about an interesting era, it is primarily a character study of Don Draper. The show works because Jon Hamm is a great actor. Also, I find Pete at least as annoying as Ziggy and Mad Men is far more heavy handed with the development of his character than The Wire was with Ziggy.
Each season of The Wire had an intricate and fascinating plot line but still was able to feature a richly fleshed out group of characters. While there was no central character in the Draper/Tony Soprano mold, the depth of the ensemble easily made up for that.
I do think that Mad Men is the best drama currently on the air, but even the weakest season of The Wire pretty easily eclipses it in my view.
I'mwith Laborlibert on this one, I suspect that the real world of international crime bosses are a lot more like the greek and less like Michael Coreleone or Tony Soprano
I love "The Wire." I loved Bunny Colvin and his "out of the box" way of trying to solve major problems in our society. I never got the idea that it was ignored critically because of racism. Hollywood is known for being tolerant of all kinds of people and their problems. What I think bugged Hollywood about "The Wire" is that there wasn't a happy ending at the end of each season. Also, the guy you thought was being set up to be the hero of the show, Jimmy McNulty, was dishonest and untrustworthy and a drunk.
"The Wire," in the end, was just too real. Hollywood loves producing what it thinks of as "authentic" but their efforts rarely match their stated intentions. For instance, how authentic is it for the best friend of the main character in every romantic comedy to be a knockout herself (think Zooey Deschanel) and yet she can never get a date the whole movie. When I watched Alexander Payne's "About Schmidt," I was amazed that the people working at the Dairy Queen that Jack Nicholson visited actually looked like they could work at Dairy Queen, instead of being some young starlet who next week would be dating John Mayer.
Well, the popularity problems could have been just external: HBO never came up with any good marketing campaigns for The Wire (it has some great ones for The Sopranos), and the media did not start to really talk it up till late in the game (Seasons 4 and 5).
Or maybe it was the formalism and intricacy. In an age of complex yet popular multi-year serials like Lost and Six Feet Under, The Wire still had them all beat in terms of the subtlety and complexity of many of its threads, constantly looping back within and between seasons in attempt to work on the fundamental mystery of America: "Who f*cked things up this bad?"
But I suspect its small audience may be linked to broader troubles.
One commenter upstream thought The Sopranos did better than The Wire because the characters were white. But I would argue that The Sopranos may have benefitted from the very exoticism of the "Mafia" mythology.
Mafia stories, with their hits and consigliere and vendettas and so on, titillate, but seem distant to most of us. Thus their never-ending popularity.
Whereas the problems of race, crime, political corruption, failing schools, sinking working class way of life, everyday street violence, drug addiction: those hit a huge, huge portion of Americans' lives.
When "The Departed" came out, I didn't see it for nearly a year, because that sh*t was REAL for us here in Boston. Billy Bulger was at my dad's wake. We bought their act, him and Whitey. That horrible family turned out to be the men behind the curtain for an enormous tangle of murder, heroin, extortion and corruption of our police and State House. It's not entertainment when it's your immediate world.
The Wire: just too damn real.
@Thomas
OK, that was whacky.
You and I were clearly typing up our posts at exactly the same time and reaching the same conclusion (too real) via different paths.
Lizkdc, shoot me an email. We can talk more about this show. I liked how you approached it.
Thomas
deckard1982@hotmail.com
Season 5 did show some cracks, but it was good to show how even an "honorable lie" can yield awful results. I'm partial to Season 4 myself.
I think the Sopranos/Wire distinction has more to do with national mythology. Italian and Irish gangsters (white ethnics) have a special place in America's heart, which is one of the reasons The Godfather is allowed to be both art and popular. It was simply (like the Sopranos after it) a very good piece of cinema that that we already have the predisposition towards.
The black, inner city does not share the same romance or respectability as it seems to exist, at least as far as popular culture, primarily in caricature. To help politicians (literally) scare up votes or record companies to make money.
That said, Omar was pretty much the coolest superhero on the planet.
I'm biased. I love the Wire because I felt it really showed how my city is being f$%*ed over and over by apathy, cronyism, racism you name it. I love this city, and sometimes hate it, with all my heart and I saw that same painful dichotomy in the show. It was personal for me. It was a love letter, a work of art. I could care less if America or the Emmy's "got it". B'more had it's moment to shine in the sun in all it's dirty, down home, messed up glory.
It was Dickensian.
I loved The Wire from first episode to last and I always felt that Season 2 was just so utterly transcendent. That was Shakespeare, Dostoevsky, just something that would be studied for centuries were it of the written word.
I have never in my life felt actual sadness and loss at the death of a fictional character but I did with Frank Sobotka. And although the Carver/Randy scene was powerful I was moved even more at the close of 2 with Nick Sobotka surrounded by images of the death of the American working class.
5 definitely had some whack shit going on and I guess it is probably for the best that the show wrapped when it did. In fact, I think the strong last 3 episodes of 5 saved that season from doing serious damage to the legacy of the show.
But such a great show overall. A big part of my life and forever the lense though which I will view the first decade of this century.
Season 4 for me but commend you all for Season 2 respect: twas ballsy and brutal and different
The Wire was the best show on television hands down! I started watching it after I heard Obama's praise of the show. I watched via Netflix because I'm too cheap to pay for HBO. I like season 2 also but I loved season 4. I knew kids just like that when I was in school - so much promise but no real way out. I don't understand Emmy voters and I guess I never will.
I mean, how does Two men and a half win?! Has anyone ever watched How I met your mother?
@jstn:
Omar was indeed the most compelling television character in recent memory; maybe ever.
And yet, in the end, no one really seemed to know who he was outside of his little world. THAT is part of the genius that was the Wire. They took small-timers and gave them faces and names and made you care about them; and then reminded you how small they really were. Before Simon's anger got the better of him, it was a wonder to behold.
God I miss the Wire. I perk up when I find threads like this one where people are still analyzing it and debating the merits of SE2 vs Se4. I think they will persist for a long time after folks let the Sopranos finale go.
I was drawn to Ziggy, not because he was an appealing character, but because he completely nailed a number of real Baltimorons I've known - the ridiculous leather coat, an appetite for getting in on the game without the brains to pull it off. In Soviet Baltimore, you don't play the Game, the Game plays you.
And I really dug the way Se5 tied a lot of threads together, with the institution that is supposed to keep tabs on the system completely missing the story.
My humble tribute:
http://www.thejennifers.com/2008/SimonSaysRough.mp3
Season 1 is the best. D'Angelo was the heart of the show. Where the fuck is Wallace?
The Emmy thing is all about ratings. Like, absolutely terrible shows like 24 and Boston Legal win all the time because they are popular, the Wire really wasn't on anyone's radar screen until the Season Four DVDs came out and people finally started catching up on On Demand. The show was ready to break out big time, but Simon blew it this year, unfortunately. I mean, I still dug the season, but it was by far the worst.
The Wire was way too deep for the masses. I'm sorry, you had to be a thinking person to truly get that show and connect the dots. That rules out about 95% of America, of the other 5%, most couldn't get the ghetto stories and were turned off by the slang. Also, shows that illustrate society's ills will never get their just due, not in a country that likes to sweep stuff like that under the rug. I consider myself lucky enough to not only get the smaller points about ghetto life and "the code of the streets" due to my own upbringing in the hood, but also get the larger social commentary that runs throughout the entire series. Certain angles you just had to watch the shows more than once to truly grasp. There's no way this show could ever be loved by that many people in this dumbed down country. No way...
I'll never forget one conversation I had with a coworker about what show was better, The Wire or the Sopranos. His essential point was that he couldn't relate to the ghetto characters in The Wire. My comeback was simple and devastating:
"Oh yeah, how many Italian mobsters do you know and fraternize with?"
He was speechless. Nothing else needed to be said.
BTW, here's a great blog on the Wire:
http://heavenandhere.wordpress.com/
Oh and this is an awesome interview with David Simon, must read material
http://sepinwall.blogspot.com/2008/03/wire-david-simon-q.html
I forgot to mention that Season 4 is my favorite. I wish they had switched Season 4 and 5, showing how the hood just starts the same vicious cycle over again with the kids would have been a perfect ending to the show.
Dude, if Al Gore can win a Nobel Prize for turning the Cliff Notes of the Wiki page on global warming into a documentary, no award means anything.
[quote]I have never in my life felt actual sadness and loss at the death of a fictional character but I did with Frank Sobotka. [/quote]
I just started watching Season Two, as it airs on BET.
Thanks. :P
[quote]I have never in my life felt actual sadness and loss at the death of a fictional character but I did with Frank Sobotka. [/quote]
Funny, that didn't hit me as hard as did that of characters that made it through more seasons. Like Bodie. Thank God Poot was saved by Foot Locker.
-j
If that's true Anthony, you should know better than to read posts about shows which are finished.
Imagine how annoyed you'll be finding out Stringer gets taken out at the end of season 3.
Personally, I'm still upset at Wallace, despite seeing it two years ago.
Jim said:
"I'll never forget one conversation I had with a coworker about what show was better, The Wire or the Sopranos. His essential point was that he couldn't relate to the ghetto characters in The Wire. My comeback was simple and devastating:
"Oh yeah, how many Italian mobsters do you know and fraternize with?" "
I don't think your co-workers point was that he related to and fraternized with mobsters. Rather I think it may have been that he relates to the working class culture of the characters. After all, the characters were basically exaggerated representations(unless you live in Howard Beach or Morris Park)of white working class people in the tri-state area (Yes, the same white working class that some people around here don't believe exists, or alternatively believe is represented by Foghorn Leghorn). To some degree I was drawn to the show by this, although it eventually caused a backlash for me since as the series wore on I found it to be an unfair and often silly representation.
Or maybe he did fraternize with Italian mobsters and didn't feel comfortable discussing it with you (after all if you lived in a major north-eastern city up until the late 90's you probably would have met or known a few).
And respect to Ofay for mentioning D'Angelo, who was an amazing tragic character.
Stringer!!!! I can't believe I miss you, you noble, evil bastard.
Also, Idris Elba should be on TV all the time. In a perfect world.
While I also loved seasons 4 and 2 I am a bit surprised that season 3 is not getting more love here. I can still vividly remember the tension between Stringer and Avon that built throughout the season. Season 4 was amazing, probably my favorite and the acting they got out of those kids was unreal, but as a parent it was often hard to watch.
Just got my season 5 DVDs via Netflix and am looking forward to watching. I don't care if it is the weakest season; a bad episode of The Wire is still better than anything else on TV.
I couldn't agree more with KCN, I thought 3 was the best, closely followed by 4. The Stringer-Avon dynamic was for me the most compelling part of the show. I liked how they didn't fall in love with their characters and kept the show realistic (i.e. gangsters die and go to prison), but the show never got back up to the heights it reached in season 3.
As far as the Sopranos, I think the biggest difference is that there was no wire character who resonated quite like Tony, because of the breadth of the consequent lack of screen time for characters. The most popular shows have characters who you can fall in love with dominating the screen. Here not so much. As much as I loved the Wire, I spent 20 minutes at the very least in every show waiting for the scene to end to get to more interesting characters/plotlines. You were never far from Tony in the Sopranos, which made it more watchable. The one exception that proves the rule is the episode about the FBI bugging his house, the feds were on-screen like ten times as much as usual. I think it was the first episode of season three. And it was boring as hell.
Was just saying at dinner last night that season 2 was my favorite as well, acknowledging however that it needed the preceding and subsequent seasons to have its full impact.
Laborlibert said:
"I don't think your co-workers point was that he related to and fraternized with mobsters. Rather I think it may have been that he relates to the working class culture of the characters."
Of course that wasn't his point, since he doesnt know any and never met any. It was obvious that as someone else mentioned, mob life and hood life are romanticized on completely different levels in America. As for "working class culture" somehow I don't see any Mob figure as "working class" and I don't see that as the allure of The Sopranos to anyone. Tony Soprano lived in a multi million dollar home, hardly the definition of working class.
Mob life has always had this attraction, even to black America(see any # of rap songs for Mob references). While hip hop itself and the rapper lifestyle is appealing to many young white folks, the actual realities that underpin that lifestyle actually isn't so appealing to many which makes it harder for most of mainstream America to relate to it.
Most people can live vicariously through Tony Soprano or Chris or Paulie. Not too many would want to live vicariously through Marlo or Omar or for that matter even McNulty. That difference to me is why the Sopranos was vastly more popular than the Wire even though the Wire was vastly a better show.