"[T]he portrait [on "SNL"] was very dismissive of the substance of Sarah Palin, and so, in that sense, they were defining Hillary Clinton as very substantive and Sarah Palin as totally superficial," Fiorina argued. "I think that continues the line of argument that is disrespectful in the extreme and yes, I would say, sexist, in the sense that just because Sarah Palin has different views than Hillary Clinton does not mean that she lacks substance."Now Tina Fey and Amy Poehler are sexists. I just want to be clear here--Fiorina is working on behalf of a guy who once made an incredibly mean joke about Chelsea Clinton, and giggled after one of his supporters called Hillary Clinton a bitch. I don't know if either of those instances were sexist. The first was shockingly cold-hearted, and a serious pot-calls-kettle-black moment given McCain's own lich-like visage. The second was, at best, awkward. I can not believe people will go for this. It just boggles the mind.
UPDATE: Video guys. I don't know, maybe she was caught of guard. I'm trying here. Work with me people.
The Beautiful Struggle: A Father, Two Sons, and an Unlikely Road to Manhood 
"and yes, I would say, sexist, in the sense that just because Sarah Palin has different views than Hillary Clinton does not mean that she lacks substance."
This literally makes zero sense. Does this woman even know what "sexist" means? This is truly a bizarre statement...
I think we have to stop calling this Rovism and start calling it McCainism. I don't think Rove even went so far as to just have people mindlessley stick to talking points no matter what. "Carly, the sky is blue." "SEXIST!!" It completely weakens actual charges of sexism and smacks of the exact hyper-reactive PC-ness Repubs used to mock.
You forgot to mention McCain calling his wife the c-word in front of a group of reporters.
This, from a person who was fired from her "elitist" position as chair of HP for eavesdropping on other people in the company. THAT'S not change we can believe in!
"in the sense that just because Sarah Palin has different views than Hillary Clinton does not mean that she lacks substance"
She knows Hillary Clinton is a woman, right?
Is it possible that the portrayal may have been sexist?
I mean, like, I once heard the argument that Clarence Thomas has a weak mind and the only reason he got where he is today is because of Affirmative Action.
As someone who thinks that Thomas's dissent in Kelo vs. New London is absolutely brilliant and his dissent in Gonzales vs. Raich doubly so... I can't help but see a bit of racism in this claim about the guy.
I have not seen the portrayal of Palin by SNL and I know that Carly is partisan as heck on this front... but just like Thomas is treated (dude, read Gonzales v. Raich again! He's a voice of sanity!!! And now that Rehnquist and O'Connor are gone, HE'S THE ONLY ONE LEFT!!!!), I wonder if, maybe, Palin's critics aren't doing a great job of alienating swing voters.
I thought they were feeling the backlash from acting all offended.
I'm thrilled to see that they aren't, and instead are still attempting to build the brand of John McCain, Easily Offended Maverick (tm). Fainting couch not included with purchase.
+1 Nerd Bonus for the "lich-like visage" reference.
Dude, the DnD references never get old.
Carly Fiorina is a first class dummy. No wonder she was fired from Hewlett Packard. The magnitude of Fiorina's breathtaking stupidity boggles the mind.
Two thoughts:
1) They're calling Tina "bitch is the new black" Fey sexist? Really?
2) When did the Republicans become such a party of whiners?
I'm not sure why John McCain gets no flack on that joke -- which wasn't just nasty to Chelsea Clinton (who was still basically a kid at the time), it was gratuitously disrespectful to the then-attorney general and then-first lady. And it wasn't an accidental gaffe/misspeak while talking policy -- it was his idea of funny. He's just ugly like that.
And when you tie that with the casual disrespect he showed his first wife, his second wife, his voting record on equal pay and the Violence Against Women Act... Palin notwithstanding, he just doesn't seem like a choice that should sit well with most women.
Jaybird,
Even is Thomas is brilliant (highly doubtfull) no one could have known that at teh time he was appointed. Bush cynically appointed the only Black guy he could find, nothing in his resume qualified him for the Supreme Court. It sin;t racist to point that out.
I think what trips the right up whenever they try this identity politics stuff is the really dont; udnertsand Affirmative Action. They really think it is just about quotas. The real idea is that AA can be used to ensure that talented women and minorities get identified and helped along to overcome the inherent biases in the system. The Military is one the institutions that get it better than any other. The idea isn't simply to have x% of officers be black. It is to make sure that the Colin Powells get identified.
The only sexism going on around Palin is McCain picking her in the first place. He simply wnated a woman, actual qualification didn;t matter. Someone who really understood the concept would have chosen any one of the many talented Republican women who do have the experience to be VP (Chistine Todd Whitman if you wanted a governor for example)
Thoughts, roughly in order:
1. "Help help I'm being oppressed!" The post-convention Republican theme.
2. I honestly can't tell the difference between Tina Fey and Sarah Palin. Am I the only one?
3. They're reduced to arguing that Saturday Night Live doesn't reflect their candidate's substantiveness?
4. No, saying Hillary has a substantive record and Palin is unprepared (but also female, like Hillary!) is not sexist. How many times have they proposed Palin as the new Hillary, the woman president women in America have been waiting for, in America, as women?
5. Agree with Alex G: Rove must be deeply offended that this random-taking-of-offense stuff is being called Rovian.
6. Brad L.: Heh. Tough, maverick wilting violets, that's the Republican party.
7. Why is Carly on Whimpering-About-Poor-Sarah-My-Fellow-Female duty and not Here's-How-McCain-Will-Fix-Wall-Street duty? McCain is the last one who should be on that job. And it says volumes about how they now view their veep and her role.
Oh for the love of Pete -- it's a comedy show. Satire people! Every political figure is taken to the extreme of whatever their weakness is. Of course they're going to play the newbie as non-substantive. Just like George W. is stupid, Bill Clinton is always flirting, the first Bush is always saying "read my lips", Chevy Chase as Ford is always falling down, etc.
So the McCain campaign is down to two things: "noun, verb, POW" and "noun, verb, sexist."
Is it possible that the portrayal may have been sexist?
Given that the whole point of the sketch was to make fun of Palin by contrasting her with a smart and politically capable woman, the answer is pretty much no.
Jaybird writes: "As someone who thinks that Thomas's dissent in Kelo vs. New London is absolutely brilliant and his dissent in Gonzales vs. Raich doubly so... I can't help but see a bit of racism in this claim about the guy."
Yeah, and we all know that clerks never do the actual writing in those decisions.
Thomas's credentials were deemed weak by his peers and his silence on the bench doesn't speak well for his acuity.
Sometimes a mediocrity is just that.
As for Carly Fiorina, I'm not sure why anyone gives a rat's ass about her opinion. She seems like a disingenuous, nasty termite.
Comparing Obama to Paris Hilton, which is at best a non sequitur, is funny and biting criticism to the McCain Camp. But having Tina Fey make light of actual ideas expressed by Palin is somehow sexist.
Boogles the mind.
Ah yes, Jaybird. You mean the dissent that said that we should throw out a huge body of settled law because it offends Justice Thomas' personal understanding of "Public Use"? You thought that was brilliant? I find it narcissistic and unworkable, not brilliant.
That's precisely the attitude that has got us into big trouble as a nation: slavish devotion to a few "principles" that are far from universally held, and damn the consequences. Does this remind you of anybody? Bush
2. I honestly can't tell the difference between Tina Fey and Sarah Palin. Am I the only one?
I can help!
If you find yourself laughing, it's probably Tina Fey.
If you find that a small and idealistic piece of your soul has died contemplating the fact that the person talking might actually become president, it's probably Sarah Palin. Or, possibly, John McCain.
By the way, I've been thinking about how much of a Cinderalla story the Palin nomination is. You know, Prince Charming (John McCain) the powerful male, after a brief glimpse at the ball (Governor's Conference) decides she's the prettiest and comes to her house with a glass slipper (the Vice Presidency) and an invitation to come live in the Castle (White House) with him. And he rescues her from the ashes of the fireplace (Ice and snow and Wassila and five kids and housework and Governoring) Not that she's actually going to help him run things at the castle mind you. But she sure looks good by his side, and we all love the story.
It's just that we all just love a Cinderella story.
I can't believe Fiorina took the bait.
Tina Fey 1, Republicans 0.
This is one of those times where I started laughing with a pained expression on my face and grabbed my hair. I mean, WHAT?! Treating Hillary Clinton (woman) and Sarah Palin (woman) as, you know, different, based on their actions and accomplishments, is exactly what feminists have been advocating for! I just--I can't--WHAT?
Tina Fey 1, Republicans 0.
Did you just start keeping score today?
There's nothing the Republicans can do about this because it's funny.
It really cuts through the BS. Palin is the polar opposite of Clinton, and most women won't vote for just any vagina, despite McCain thinking (moronically) so.
Given that the whole point of the sketch was to make fun of Palin by contrasting her with a smart and politically capable woman, the answer is pretty much no.
Posted by Brad L | September 15, 2008 4:21 PM
I mean, wasn't it sexist when they made fun of George W. by contrasting him with the smarth and politically capable Al Gore? wait . . . .
Fiorina's claim that the skit was sexist is just proof that she's dishonest, because I guarantee you, Fiorina has faced sexism in the past. She knows it firsthand, and she knows that criticism of Palin's positions is not sexist.
"Yeah, and we all know that clerks never do the actual writing in those decisions."
Given that Thomas had his clerks write separate dissents in each case rather than merely signing on to the dissents of the other dissenting judges, I'd say that there is a little more of a dynamic at work here than the mere lazy Thomas pawning work off on subordinates.
"Ah yes, Jaybird. You mean the dissent that said that we should throw out a huge body of settled law because it offends Justice Thomas' personal understanding of "Public Use"? You thought that was brilliant? I find it narcissistic and unworkable, not brilliant."
Dude, you're seriously defending the decision of Kelo vs. New London because it relies on the settled law of courts saying "sure, you can take that land" to any given executive/legislature that has said "we want this"?
If anything, I support the dissent that says "you know what, when chosing between the rights of citizens and the rights of the government to exercise power at the expense of the citizens, I'll take the citizens, thanks."
Which is, coincidentally, what happened in the Raich case as well.
For what it's worth, you can take comfort in that the next president's picks, no matter who he is, will be judges who agree with "settled law", Doctor Jay.
I think the automatic response to criticism of Palin is "that's sexist!!" because the assumption is that everyone criticizing Palin is male, and therefore they can get away with it. Which, of course, is sexist in and of itself.
But maybe Fey is just a female puppet being manipulated by men.
*rolls eyes*
I mean, wasn't it sexist when they made fun of George W. by contrasting him with the smarth and politically capable Al Gore? wait . . . .
Danger! We may be on the verge of creating a Perptual Ironic Motion Machine.
(This is not to be confused with the Large Irony Collider, which some think will eventually create an Ironic Hole so big that it will swallow up the world).
I'm reminded of a Simpson's quote:
Brad L.,
I feel honored that my comment was the irony shark jumping tipping point in this thread
i understand the claim of "sexism" to mean that the two women used were portrayed as extremes. one as the dumb blonde, the other as the angry bitch.
"never no in-between
we either niggaz or kings
we either bitches or Queens"
so, i get it. i don't agree, but i get it.
contrasting the two women because they are women could also be viewed as sexist.
I was going to post something along the lines of, "And the universe continues to eat itself" but it appears that several people have already beaten me to it.
You know what would actually be sexist?
Treating Sarah Palin different from every other politician, that would be sexist.
How do they treat politicians on SNL? They ridicule them with cheap low-brow humor. Palin should be different because?
The only way it could legitimately be construed as possibly sexist is if one believes that Sarah Palin is the single most qualified Republican nominee for Vice President, and that her selection also occured without any consideration for Clinton's primary run.
Here's the thing. It's difficult to watch that skit and many others, or even many news reports, and get the idea that the actors and/or writers aren't supporters of Democrats and dismissive of Republicans.
As far as it being totally sexist? Well it probably was a little sexist, but it was also satire, and that's what it is supposed to do, push boundaries. I also wouldn't mind if satire dealing with Obama had a slight element of racism, and satire dealing with McCain had a slight element of age-old-white guy-ism.
But likely the satire we'll see with Obama is the type of racism of rich white guys (who the viewer can naturally draw the conclusion to be a republican) putting the smart hip black guy down.
We probably won't see a video that shows Obama sitting around the dinner table acting like a member of the Nutty Professor's family.
Uh Sam did you see the sketchs in the primaries where they made fun of Obama's treatment in the media? The debate one was hilarious.
The Daily Show had a hilarious sketch where they played theme songs for all the Dem Cnadidates and Obama's was Jesus Christ Superstar.
SNL and the Daily Show make fun of liberals all the time. That is why they succeed and Conservative comedy shows fail.
"We probably won't see a video that shows Obama sitting around the dinner table acting like a member of the Nutty Professor's family."
Well, that's because that type of satire would have no base in truth or fact. It wouldn't make sense and it certainly wouldn't be funny. This is the difference.
Carly Fiorina is just another whiny Republican asshole.
These people are the first to be offended when a joke is directed at them but brutally cold and heartless when directing the joke at a Democrat or Liberal.
She can go f*ck herself.
Carly Fiorina is a scumbag who hired PIs to spy on her board of directors and was fired for it.
Isn't it apt she's carrying water for the Republicans?
These people are disgusting, immoral hypocrites and deserve all the ridicule they get.
As to Tina Fey being sexist...uh, yeah, and Bill Cosby is a racist. Give us a fricking break.
The sad part is, Tina Fey didn't even have to write her lines...when she said "I can see Russia from my house," that's practically the exact inane answer Palin gave Charles Gibson.
The Republicans and their surrogates are a joke. Their campaign is based on nothing but hate and an empty skirt.
SNL sucks too by the way. Except for the political stuff and Weekend Update. Though Weekend Update usually sucks too. But the skits always suck.
Kristen Wiig doesn't suck. She is a comic genius, and clearly the funniest person on the show. I want to kiss her on the mouth.
I hope that didn't come off as sexist.
pointing out that a woman isn't qualified isn't sexist.
the truth isn't sexist.
Fiorina tried to sell this same line on Charlie Rose a couple weeks ago. She said that anyone who considered Obama more qualified than Palin was necessarily sexist.
Kristen Wiig does suck, she's easily the WORST cast member and makes Molly Ringwald look like Lucile Ball.
She does the same awful stuttering routine for every character she plays. Talentless.
Fuck and shit on the Atlantic!
"Kristen Wiig does suck, she's easily the WORST cast member and makes Molly Ringwald look like Lucile Ball."
You are not a serious person, sir. I hope this is a joke, because you make me sick!!! She makes Lucile Ball look like Carly Fiorina. She's definitely the funniest chick on the show, and I've been a fan of Amy Poehler since the U.C.B. days.
Alright, Freakshow, which dude on the show would you want to kiss the hardest?
Consider that an open thread, people...
To be honest I think the impression did "miss the substance of Sarah Palin." She's much less a ditz than a venomous harpy, and given that Fey has the resemblance nailed out of the box, I think she could have done a much better job skewering Palin (and this is said as someone who rather likes some things about Palin, but likes good comedy even more).
But what about these Palin values when it comes to race? There's a horribly frightening post on a conference in DC this weekend and an interesting start to a discussion about race.
http://www.governmentalityblog.com/my_weblog/2008/09/can-you-find-palin-values-and-racism-in-one-place-larisa-did.html
Stacy, That would have to be Keenan, not Kel. I could just kiss those amazing lips all night long.
Oh, snap! That was actually Martin Short doing a parody of Carly Fiorina! No, really, it wasn't? But those grimace-smiles are pure Martin Short, qnd even a McCain advisor can't be as witless as this,
Carly Fiorina is an idiot. Her "revolutionary" idea at HP was changing the logo.
We'd all be better off as Americans if we chipped in and bought each of them a dictionary. They don't meaning of anything.
This campaign is surreal. Its a really bad Joseph Goebbels impression with d-list politicians.
If McCain wins can we then refer to him as the Lich King? Is Nihilim going to be the first to down him?
Could it be sexist? Yes. Attractive women in politics are far too often derided as airheads regardless of their actual abilities, and I think to some degree this is happening with Palin there, seen with the tone of voice and giggling
She DOES consider global warming to be real, and NOW she considers it human-caused.
The Russia bit makes her sound like an idiot, but anyone who makes such an INANE comment as "my state is close to Russia, so that gives me foreign policy experience!" deserves to be mocked because it's just a really, really dumb thing to say.
I liked the Hillary finish best: "I invite the media to grow a pair - and if you can't, I will lend you mine". She (the real one) must be mad enough to spit nails to think that Palin, who is nothing like her on policy, can get to the White House using HER story and HER supporters.
Did Carly Fiorina the former CEO have anything to say about the meltdown on Wall Street today?
Who cares if she thinks two talented comedians are sexist?
I want her and her stellar economic witchcraft skills to explain how McCain is going to supposedly reform the Republican party's free for all with Wall Street.
please.
"Did Carly Fiorina the former CEO have anything to say about the meltdown on Wall Street today?"
Carla Fiorina can see Wall Street from her house.
... and McCain saw it from Greenspan's house.
Carly was not the CEO that was fired for spying, that was her successor, Patricia Dunn. Carly was fired for generally fouling up.
"Did you hear the one about the woman who is attacked on the street by a gorilla, beaten senseless, raped repeatedly and left to die? When she finally regains consciousness and tries to speak, her doctor leans over to hear her sigh contently and to feebly ask, ‘Where is that marvelous ape?’"
--John McCain, 1986
'nuff said.
Treating Hillary Clinton (woman) and Sarah Palin (woman) as, you know, different, based on their actions and accomplishments, is exactly what feminists have been advocating for!
Well, it's not like Republicans have ever figured out what feminism is, or given a shit about sexism. They just think if they shout it often enough, a herd of angry women will come.
"Did you hear the one about the woman who is attacked on the street by a gorilla, beaten senseless, raped repeatedly and left to die? When she finally regains consciousness and tries to speak, her doctor leans over to hear her sigh contently and to feebly ask, ‘Where is that marvelous ape?’"
--John McCain, 1986
See, I'm generally a no-holds-barred kind of guy, and by no means easily offended, but I fail to see the humor in this.
Do echo John, above, yes, you VERY much forgot about him not only calling his wife the c-word in front of a group of reporters, but doing it in an extremely mean-spirited, angry, lashing-out way. What a horrible, horrible man. The very notion of saying something like that to someone I love, after so little provocation, in public, is incredibly painful.
". . . just because Sarah Palin has different views than Hillary Clinton does not mean that she lacks substance."
And just because Sarah Palin has two X chromosomes does not mean that she has substance. Nor, for that matter, does it mean that for Carly Fiorina.
So Fiorina is saying that it is sexist to point out that some women have a more substantive understanding of public policy and more experience in national politics than others?
Republicans are really really bad at arguing against sexism.
I don't intend to vote McCain-Palin, but --
Hillary flunked her bar exam.
Hillary got to where she is by being somebody's wife.
Hillary has a pair? Come on, when Bill cheated, Hillary looked the other way. Todd knows that if he cheats, he'd better hide the elk gun.
Ta-Nehisi, I'm not sure why you're expecting a campaign spokesperson to be objective. That's not Carly Fiorina's job. Her job is to do and say ANYTHING to attack Obama and promote McCain.
It's not a surprise that she's telling us the sky is actually pink. And that everyone who keeps insisting the sky is blue is a nasty demeaning sexist for not acknowledging that the sky is really pink.
Jaybird said... As someone who thinks that Thomas's dissent in Kelo vs. New London is absolutely brilliant and his dissent in Gonzales vs. Raich doubly so... I can't help but see a bit of racism in this claim about the guy.
We ARE talking about the same Clarence Thomas, right? You know. The guy who voted to uphold the Texas anti-gay sodomy law? The lone voice of dissent in Hamdi vs. Rumsfeld, who pretty much said that the President can name any person they wish an "enemy combatant" and lock them away?
I'm no legal eagle, but that sounds like a pair of world class f***-ups to me.
Hillary flunked her bar exam.
Like many, many others before her. And then she passed. And what was Palin's educational background?
Hillary got to where she is by being somebody's wife.
That's interesting, because I highly doubt Bill Clinton would have gotten where he did without Hillary. And BTW, talk about sexist...
Hillary has a pair? Come on, when Bill cheated, Hillary looked the other way. Todd knows that if he cheats, he'd better hide the elk gun.
Did you learn these intimate details at dinner parties with the respective couples? No? Oh, you mean you have no idea what you're talking about.
Joe S. -- stop it. It's not news that HRC didn't pass the DC bar in the 1970s, while at the same time passing the Arkansas bar, which she took in the same summer. I don't know about you, but if I'd had to take two bar exams in the same summer (and no, they're not the same from jurisdiction to jurisdiction) I'd have been a basket case. One was more than enough. Plus, it ain't that strange for competent people to flunk bar exams the first time out. One thing I got told while studying for the bar is that there would be at least one person in my graduating class whose failure to pass the bar would come as a complete shock. And it was true.
I won't even justify "Hillary got to where she is by being somebody's wife," except perhaps to mention that a certain presidential candidate got to where he is by marrying up . . .
And on the last point, how do you know "Hillary looked the other way?" How a wronged spouse deals with betrayal personally (and what she may know about it while it is going on) is her business, not yours. That being said, once it became public, whatever she did, Hillary would have been damned either way. SOP in political circles is for the spouse to stand by her man. Or have you learned nothing from the parade of other "supportive" spouses we've been treated to from both sides of the aisle in past years? But somehow that was considered wrong in Hillary's case -- even by certain people who (Wendy Vitter, anyone?)* later found themselves standing dutifully next to a podium while their husbands sheepishly fessed up to various infelicities and indiscretions. However, if HRC had broken ranks and publicly castigated Bill, I have no doubt she'd have been attacked either for her lack of loyalty or for personal political opportunism. IOW, on this point she can't win -- not as long as folks continue to demonize her.
*If you don't remember, Wendy Vitter was the one who, in 2000, had this to say about HRC's reaction to Bill's bad behavior: " "I'm a lot more like Lorena Bobbitt than Hillary. If he [Vitter] does something like that, I'm walking away with one thing, and it's not alimony, trust me." In July 2007, though, when David Vitter came out of seclusion to hold a press conference regarding his dalliances with prostitutes, Wendy Vitter was right there with him -- and it didn't appear she'd "walked away" with anything, let alone his wedding tackle.
Joe S.-
I'm no Hillary fan, but Palin did hire her high school friend to run an agricultural agency for which her "experience" included her childhood love of cows. Nice qualification for a $95,000 per year job.
Of course, Hillary ain't runnin' for V-P, and isn't the next in line to a 72-year old man who has survived 4 bouts of cancer, so I don't much care about her record. Palin's record isn't just thin, it's bad. She's not fit to be President and, since McCain picked her, he has proven that he's not fit to be President either.
Palin should be thankful that she's being portrayed by Tina Fey. It could be a lot worse.
http://www.netglimse.com/videos/195640
David Foster Wallace on John McCain and negative campaigning in 2000:
http://thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=160
It's an amazingly insightful, prescient report - hard to remember that this was only 8 years ago, when the sleazy problems and the political discussion seemed so much less urgent and soul-crushing than they do today.
Unlike many of my friends, I've never cracked Wallace's gigantic novels, but this story is plain and evident proof to anyone who cares to listen that the man was a remarkable writer. He'll be missed.
"Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly?
Because her father is Janet Reno."
--John McCain 1998
What an asshole.
I'm John McCunt, and I approve this slander.
"lich-like visage" is an amazing bit of prose there. I'm gonna start using it and enjoy the confused look on people's faces like I just pulled out an SAT word.
The fake laugh of that Joan River gonnabe is making me puke. 1 more thing, Amy and Tina- also Hilary and Palin are both female, so how is that sexist? Have you been smoking pot?
I'm terrified that this absurd charade will convince voters that the battle between these four buffoons has no meaning.
This idiot Punch and Judy show is what is supposed to determine the fate of a nation? Screw all of them. I'm moving to Toronto, and dragging my boyfriend along to get married there. Again, no. I have to vote to somehow stop this stupid train.