That thread on old-school nerdom got me thinking. Was half the stuff I loved as a kid even that good? I recently bought a collection of every old Transformers episode ever made and--surprise--most of the sucked. The movie was still incredible though and holds up remarkably well. Anyway from time to time I go on Youtube and play the following video. I don't even know how good the show was--but it reminds me of a time I thought I'd never yearn for. God damn, I hated being a kid. But the one thing that age robs--and probably technology--is that sense of wonder. I got to tap into that when I wrote my book. But now, rarely a day goes by when I don't yearn for that sense of boundlessness.
On another note, my dream is to do an oral history of cartoons from the late 70s to the early 90s and publish it online--something like Thundarr to Batman The Animated Series. Justice League is really the last great one.
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I don't think it's technology, I think it's age.
A few weeks ago I was wandering through a used bookstore and saw a collection of SF short stories that I devoured, regurgitated, and re-ingested over and over when I was between 9-15. Within seconds, the book was mine.
More than half of them sucked to read as an adult. But that's okay, the book is sitting on my shelf, waiting a few years for my kids to find.
What I found strange about the geek-culture thread was that everyone seems to be processing this as just something about how Hollywood has taken over what used to be a more exclusive, less mainstream cultural domain. That's certainly true, but I think it's missing some broader, more important issues.
Watching Star Trek in seventh grade, I genuinely believed that we would one day develop technology for interstellar travel. Now, that seems faintly ridiculous. I wouldn't rule it out, exactly, but the fact is that we are not even a tiny bit closer to having any idea how to do that kind of thing than we were fifty years ago.
What was the last genuinely revolutionary bit of technological progress? The effing iPhone? We continue to push the envelope, of course, and there's a good bit of progress left in just banging out the implications of what we already know.
But wake up, people: the great age of technological progress is in decline, if not quite over. There are no major phenomena in the world for which we don't have basic scientific explanations at the level of basic physics. (Yes yes, dark matter blah blah blah. Cosmology remains exciting but it's unlikely to change anyone's practical life.)
Another corollary: now that we're not living in the Atomic Age, there's less need or cultural impulse to self-consciously retreat to the pseudo-medieval imagined past of fantasy worlds.
Genetic and bio-electronic technologies are the one possible exception I see.
Holy Crap, I remember that show. It wasn't very good, and was yet another way to sell toys, but so what. I'd love to see the cartoon retrospective btw...
I like Kevdog's description of rereading old faves. I went back and tried to pick up some of the sci-fi fantasy stuff I'd loved as a kid, and it was terrible -- bad writing, bad characterization, bad concepts. Which *doesn't* mean that there isn't great stuff out there (c.f. George R. R. Martin).
But Fantasy (and Sci Fi) are typically rooted in a simplistic, dualistic world of clear-cut good and evil (just like the romances upon which their plots are based). And now that I'm older, that world doesn't reflect the one I live in -- it seems terribly naive. I still love Startrek TNG -- but now it's Picard's charisma, not Data's humor, that draws me. I loved Wes Crusher. Now I'd crush his coiffed little head if I could.
I guess my point is simply that fiction rooted in the medieval romance plot is appealing to kids, but not adults. And it's sad to experience this now -- I'm filled with nostalgia when I watch the opening credits for Transformers, or M.A.S.K. ("And spectrum's got that su-per vi-sion"), or even f'in Gummi Bears. Remember "The Cities of Gold"?
On the other hand, there's always D&D.
some stuff ages well.
when i was a kid, we collected comics. we had to decide between "dc" comics - that published superman, and "marvel" comics - who were the new kids on the block.
we went with marvel and disdained any association with anyone who would collect "dc" comics.
i think that time has shown that our preference for marvel comics has been validated. marvel's strength has only grown over the decades.
some of the best movies in recent years have been based on those old marvel comics.
they contained a lot of the elements that make for good fiction and cinema, and the guys in hollywood have recognized that and turned to that source.
hate to sound like one of those vain babyboomers, but i think the record clearly indicates that the '60's was the golden age for that kind of stuff.
it's never been rivaled, really.
Try watching some of the STAR BLAZERS episodes now.
When I was younger STAR BLAZERS was an incredible cartoon (to me anyway).
I was shocked at how bad it is now to me when I rented the DVD from netflix.
There's a pretty solid line in my experience for seperating nostalgiic cartoons from actual goodness:
If it actually evolved storylines, then it was a good show.
Beast Wars started out as terrible episodic tripe, but evolved to epic-scale awesomeness in the later seasons
Gargoyles also became better as it got more complex.
Mighty Max was an obscure show designed to sell toys, but surprisingly well-written.
Usually you can tell which shows were terrible, because all conflicts were the same, and all resolutions involved a fist fight or big-robot-battle.
But you should definitely check out the new Justice League Unlimited (but not the first Justice League), best cartoon in a long time
But wake up, people: the great age of technological progress is in decline, if not quite over.
Disagree. I recall a discussion on this--probably when Matt was here, for it focused on transportation--that the 50s and 60s had enjoyed vast improvements in transportation: highways, cheap airplane flights, the American family driving across the country vacation. So their vision of the future was that we'd have even better transportation. Instead, the realities of energy prices set in, but there was a revolution in information. (I'm 40--come on, age mates, as a kid did you ever think "who was the backup singer of an obscure song from 1965" would be the sort of question that could pass through your head and be answered in less than a minute with that ubiquitous notebook sized thing we all have?) Earlier we had a revolution in power, with engines and large scale factories.
Now we're having a revolution in biology--even in physics grad schools, some profs say they encourage their students to go into biology as the new frontier happening field. Others switch over because of funding or because of bringing a new look to old problems--a lot of progress and breakthroughs come from either fairly young researchers, or researchers who are new to the field and bring a different knowledge and assumption set. After biology it will be something else.
For Ta-Nehisi's point: I was never a Narnia fan, but I've talked to several adults who loved them as kids and, when they come back to read them to their own kids, are stunned at what heavy-handed Christian allegory they are. Some stories that absolutely capture the imagination when you're young really don't translate to 30 or 40 or 50. (I will here confess to liking the Wonder Twins, though I was usually Wonder Woman when we played Justice League at recess.)
But other things...I loved Danny Dunn books and Johnny Quest shows when I was young, and re-reading or -watching with my own kids I still love them. Albeit I have realized how embarrassingly much of my views about what a scientist did were colored by these shows--while I didn't think I'd live on a private island a la Dr. Quest, I did think scientists could switch around between different fields with something of the ease shown in these shows. That idea lives on with characters like Bond's M and Alias's Marshall--I adore Marshall and it just wouldn't be the same if he only handled optical bugs like a real world spy tech genius.
"Was half the stuff I loved as a kid even that good?"
I asked myself this very question this weekend when I caught "Breakin 2: Electric Boogaloo" on cable.
The answer was a resounding NO. However, I was amused to see Ice-T cast simply as "Rapper."
I watched the Care Bears movie recently and, while I can't say whether or not it was objectively "good," it made me cry harder than I have cried at any aesthetic experience in years. Something about lost innocence, I guess. I can see, objectively, that most people feel that way about the era they grew up in, whether it was the 1940s or the 1980s. It doesn't make the nostalgia any less real, or any less piercing.
The NeverEnding Story has a similar effect on me even now, its meandering plot arc notwithstanding.
As a public service announcement I need to plead with everyone *not* to rewatch The Last Starfighter in a fit of nostalgia. I was depressed about what a terrible movie that was for weeks.
The Dark Crystal on the other hand is still pretty good.
Was half the stuff I loved as a kid even that good?...
But the one thing that age robs--and probably technology--is that sense of wonder. I got to tap into that when I wrote my book. But now, rarely a day goes by when I don't yearn for that sense of boundlessness.
some things 'age out' and don't bring back that feeling of endless life and adventure that has infused many memories of my youth. but some do in an incredible way and turn me into a crazy assed kid. i don't think technology has much to do with it. my guess is that certain memories are inextricably linked to an aspect of our lives that continues to play a role in our fantasies and our psyche.
things age out because they aren't moored and associated with a continuing aspect of our personality. i don't think my age is associated with a loss of interest. my best example is looney tunes. about 6 months ago i got a collection of about 6 dvds of loonies for my twin niece and nephew who are 4 years old. the toons were from the early to mid '50's i think. the 3 of us sat down and watched them. wow, you wanna see some great animation, see the loony tunes. the characters, the stories, the small side bar stories, the voice work and amusement brought a flood of fun and laffs to me. and, they were way more than i recalled. the kids watched it and were jumping up and down as if the were joy made into humans. my nephew kept jumping up and down holding his crotch~~who doesn't remember that kind of joy? my niece pissed in her pants because she just wanted to see one more episode...
i loved it all. the best part is that now i have have a set at my home and the have one at theirs, so whenever i visit them or they visit me, we watch loony tunes!
we try and figure out which of the characters are our favorites [or maybe who we identify/empathize with the most?] i love the wile e coyote and the tasmanian devil dog.
uh, i gotta go and have milk and chocolate chip cookies and then nap...
For myself, I've always attributed my declining interest in the science fictional and fantastic to the increasing tolerability of my actual life. As I learned social skills, found friends and lovers who I related to on grounds other than shared desperate loneliness, and gained some measure of control over my circumstances, the pain and insults of childhood faded, and with them my need to retreat to distant worlds.
Which is not to say that I no longer think robots are incredibly awesome.
Deborah,
As a fellow 5th-decadist, I agree on the info revolution. There's almost no trivia so trivial that you can't look it up almost instantly. This was absolutely not the case before the internet.
On the question of fantasy/SF aging, one thing that's aged well, I think, is the Dark is Rising series. I liked it as an 11-year-old (probably the ideal time to read it, right?), and when I recently re-read it I thought it was still worth reading.
Narnia always seemed like anvilicious smarm to me.
"Remember "The Cities of Gold"?"
Yes! I wish they'd get on the ball about re-releasing that on DVD. I heard you can get a copy of it in France (maybe), but not anywhere else.
Gargoyles and Mighty Max were awesome, as were the Batman cartoons in the 90s. So (IMO) is/was Avatar: The Last Airbender.
Tex Avery will never go out of style.
It's not that growing up robbed you of a sense of wonder, it merely imparted a sense of taste and an ability to recognize when you were being cynically manipulated into toy purchases by being fed repetitive, poorly written tripe.
All this just makes me think of the maxim that gets spouted in comic book circles pretty often:
90% of everything is crap.
In my experience my fond memories of gripping drama and endless wonder are ripped to shreds at least 50% of the time (I've got a high threshold for drek though.. :)
I still love comic books though and I still believe that fantasy and sci fi allow the potential for meaningful, deep and intense reads.
I do find that horror movies have completely lost their charm .... (I believe that the term horror has been terribly abused lately)
Love the discussion!
Two words: Orson Welles.
As an adult at Disneyworld, I could not stop myself on the dark rides from looking up at the ceilings. Killed me.
Netflix and Hulu are killing me on this.
A short list of TV shows I loved as a kid that have not aged well AT ALL. I stopped renting downloading shows I am wistfully nostalgic for.
UFO
Space 1999
Captain Scarlett
Thunderbirds
The Bugaloos
The Prisoner
Anything by Irwin Allen
Luckily only one them, that I know of, has been remade as a movie or new television show.
TNC,
I am about the same age as you. When I was a young'un growing up in the 1980's, I watched the Transformers, Thundercats, He-Man, Robotech, and GI Joe religiously (when I wasn't at practice). I mean, these cartoons were jokes even back then (well, except for Robotech, which will stand the test of time better than most). I remember always complaining about nobody dying in GI JOE, how they always shot lasers from their rifles, how they had airplanes with no wings, how 10 Cobra soldiers would would dogpile Roadblock, and he would just raise his arms and go "AAARGH" and the Cobras would fly in different directions, and on, and on, and on...
Also, in your oral history of 70's-90's cartoons, can you please include "The Superfriends" and "Hammerman."
Oh, and STAR BLAZERS has the most kick-ass theme song of all time (followed by the Silverhawks, of course).
I feel you on this tip; I have been watching Batman: The Animated Series, from the early '90s, and man, that was best cartoon growing up. But watching it now, it doesn't have the punch it did when I was in second and third grade. It could be because I am a grown ass man (my wife heckles me everytime she sees me watching it), but it is what it is. I have been watching Justice League Unlimited as well, but if you want a good recent cartoon, check out Samauri Jack. Talk about a transcendental experience.
Most of the stuff we loved as kids is terrible crap---trying to watch Scooby-Doo now makes me wonder if I suffered some terrible form of brain damage as an infant that I eventually recovered from.
Part of it is that as a kid, you just haven't seen much else, so your standards are nonexistant. You just don't know that other cartoons are better drawn and better animated, so you're still wowed by moving drawings. Plus, due to lack of exposure, you don't know what a cliche is---as with music, the first example you get of something gets special points in your mind, even if it's something that's actually been done a million times before.
Plus, kids are kind of stupid. Straight up.
Re: "Cities of Gold". The whole series is on youtube! Definitely did not hold up, IMO.
I think Goonies has held up pretty well. I still watch it anytime it's on TV. Wargames too.
It's not that growing up robbed you of a sense of wonder, it merely imparted a sense of taste and an ability to recognize when you were being cynically manipulated into toy purchases by being fed repetitive, poorly written tripe.
Most of the stuff we loved as kids is terrible crap---trying to watch Scooby-Doo now makes me wonder if I suffered some terrible form of brain damage as an infant that I eventually recovered from.
You too?
And a word of advice for everyone here not named Fred: Never ever, NEVER, try to re-watch Jonny Quest unless you have a skin of iron and/or are drunk. "Wait, did Dr. Quest just call those guys 'savages'?"
But wake up, people: the great age of technological progress is in decline, if not quite over. There are no major phenomena in the world for which we don't have basic scientific explanations at the level of basic physics. (Yes yes, dark matter blah blah blah. Cosmology remains exciting but it's unlikely to change anyone's practical life.)
I'll agree that physics is largely about filling in the margins, right now. Some of those margins are very, very interesting (quantum gravity, anyone), but it's very unlikely that we're going to get warp drives out of the LHC findings.
That said, there is at least one very interesting and potentially world-changing phenomenon that we only have the sketchiest grasp of: the mind.
Sure, we understand neurons, and we've got some vague idea of how neurons can network together to process information, but we don't have anything but the vaguest idea of how to get from there to a fully conscious, sentient mind.
One only need look at the state of the art in AI research to see that we've got a long, long way to go before we can even get a good handle on the problem. Cognitive science has not yet had its Newton or its Einstein. It hasn't even had its Kepler or Copernicus. We're still sitting along side Tycho Brahe, cataloging phenomena without really understanding them (a lesion on the brain here impedes facial recognition, a lesion here causes aphasia...).
Given the potential implications of what a coherent Theory of Mind could give us, I have hope that the future will look very different from the present once some bright, young genius hands us the first set of keys to the problem.
"But wake up, people: the great age of technological progress is in decline, if not quite over. There are no major phenomena in the world for which we don't have basic scientific explanations at the level of basic physics. (Yes yes, dark matter blah blah blah. Cosmology remains exciting but it's unlikely to change anyone's practical life.)"
This is a trope that has been repeated throughout the history of science and technology. There is a wonderful quote, which I have been trying to find all day of someone saying this exact same thing about a year before Einstein's Annus Mirabilis of 1905. They were pure wrong then as history has shown. Of course some people say this and it is indeed several decades or a century before something REALLY BIG comes along.
It's not that you are right or wrong, it's just that the last people who can truly objectively discuss this topic are the people who are living through the time period in question.
You just don't know. You can't. Nobody can. It's all guessing and luck.
Adolphus -
Glad to see that someone else remembers The Bugaloos. I had concluded it was some odd hallucination. Don't think I'll go looking for it now, but I'm glad to know I didn't imagine it.
I don't know about you Americans, but this was what was thrilling the small minds of Canadians - er, sorry, minds of small Canadians - 25 years ago:
G-Force
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2jjCMgGOYw&feature=related
And of course, the unspeakably crappy Rocket Robin Hood:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MfisiGqtEM
BTW - anyone else here grow up on Steve Jackson and Ian Livingston "Choose Your Own Adventure" books? I bet I could still find my way through the Forest of Doom.
Ta-Nehisi...you are genius.
I have been searching for this show for 20 years, and now the nightmares will stop.
And no. Wheel Warriors wasn't very good, but I do remember it being kinda dark, for a 4th grader that is. And the toys rocked.
I was probably a little too old for this stuff (graduating high school in '81) but I never understood the appeal. Admittedly, I quite enjoyed Star Blazers in the late Seventies.
I remember in 2002 talking to friends of mine who were really jazzed at the idea of Transformers and G.I. Joe movies. Huh?
It does bring to mind Dick Hyacinth's phrase *"Wacky ape comics," meaning "Silver Age superhero comics which everyone likes for reasons other than their actual quality."