OK folks live blogging starts now. I'd be shocked if McCain doesn't do well. I'd also be shocked if Obama tries to run out the clock. I really think he's going for the kill--even if its killing him softly. Also I'm on Pacific time, Don't let it freak you out.
7:34 Man he seems wobbly. Does McCain want to be president or not? Where is that killer instinct?
7:31 Killer end on bio. This will be hard for McCain to follow.
7:22 From Fallows:
Two minutes ago, McCain half-pointing at Obama and calling him, in the third person, that one.I missed that. Did anyone else catch it?
The sense of seeing in real time a gesture that will be regretted for a long time.
7:10 Man, everytime Obama talks the bar for women just shoot up. I don't want to be sexist, but come on ladies, you ain't heard a word he said! Admit it! Your just thinking "He's soooooo dreammmyyyy..."
7:09 OK, McCain sounded good on the military. He actually seemed to believe. Here's a thought--maybe McCain is actually only interested in one part of the president job--the military part.
7:03 The "I don't understand" counter--he should have pounded harder. He could have drilled Johnny Mac on that one.
7:01 A question from the room:
Someday, TNC, you're going to have to tell us the genesis of "weak sauce." I've been using that phrase for the past month or so, and hopefully in the right context.
I can't take credit for that. I'm a recovering World of Warcraft addict. I got it from the kids there. I've been gone for a year now, but still I hear it calling me...
6:55 The hair-transplant joke, uhm, awkward...
6:54 I feel bad, but I agree with Josh, this debate is boring. I think things are solidifying, it's hard to see anyone being swayed by anything happening tonight It's about issues though! Hey Deborah! Hi David!
6:44 Sister got the ball. She ain't fumbling. Good question. Meanwhile, I kind of think--just judging by the dials--people just don't like McCain. I don't think it has anything to do with his answers. I think it actually is about his aspect, his bearing.
6:42 Why does he think that cheap laughter is appealing?
6:39 Or not.
6:37 Obama is just looking at McCain like he's nuts. I smell a nasty counter. Also, McCain needs to avoid the canned puns.
6:35 Meh Barry, you're rambling. Focus, kid.
6:32 Boy they teed this one up for Barry. Still no Bacevich...
6:31 Man I'd love to hear an invocation of Bacevich here.
6:30 Again with the overhead projector!
6:23 The overhead projector crack was weak-sauce. Lame. Sooo lame.
6:22 Am I wrong, or does McCain look a step too slow? He just seems deenergized. Maybe it's just me.
6:17 But it likely will get worse before better, no? That "not surprisingly" line was a nice shot. The kid is smooth. The dagger of venom baby.
6:12 Oh man, a brother's got the ball. Fumbles English 101. Meh, who am I to talk...
6:11 Boy, Barry's on the attack...
6:09 I thought McCain did good on the first answer. Got beyond tax cuts and more tax cuts. But that joke was lame.
The Beautiful Struggle: A Father, Two Sons, and an Unlikely Road to Manhood 
McCain's moving stiffly and awkwardly. He looks worn out. In my wife's words, "rickety". There will be speculation about his physical condition.
I agree with the previous statement. Obama means business... interesting to see how this goes.
(Watching from Gov class at CMC)
that audience should be filled with young people.
Does Joe Lieberman actually count as "across the aisle" anymore?
so what are your priorities senator mccain....answer...all of them...great answer
grandpa simpson is trying to hit every possible point and good thing he can slip in.
wow obama actually has priorities...score for him.
Obama is much more compelling on this question about prioritizing. McCain says we can do it and throws in a comment about terrorists. Obama says yes we need to prioritize, "like a family." Good one.
Thank you for name-checking the greatest line in rap! Rakim for president!
Um, isn't it really up to the moderator to keep the candidates within the allotted time?
Dude really doesn't like overheads.
Not sure i dig the take on 911. A bit touchy if you ask me.
What up people
the people with the dials in ohio are lovin obama on energy....wow
he looks much more confident and presidential(whatever that means)
right on he mentioned earmarks are a tiny bit of the budget
Why does McCain keep standing up while Barack is talking? That is vexing me. That and his constant smirking.
Was that a real question that Tom Brokaw asked or a monologue on his belief's about the SS?
Tom Brokaw really doesn't understand the word "debate," does he?
Okay, managed to get the debate on but then the middle schooler showed up for one of those "mom I want to talk about my life" things that you really should never put off. Sounded in the background as though Obama hit the "go shopping" after 9/11, which is what I consider a real low point of Bush's presidency, so yay.
On the radio Obama is coming over as much clearer and steadier; interesting to see what it looked like.
Hey I just realized something!!!
McCain moves like Redd Foxx in Sanford and Son. When he starts moving those arms, all I can here is, "You big dhummi!"
Why does Mac keep bringing up Lieberman? Why doesn't he talk about his VP?
McCain really needs to get off the whole Reagan thing. The dude entered office nearly 30 years ago, his name simply doesnt hold that much cachet anymore...
I don't know - I just can't take him for genuine when he keeps repeating 'my friends' over and over again.
He's just playing to be earnest and nice and so you're supposed to like him better. But those opinion lines don't seem to think so highly of him..
why is mccain breathing so stertorously? is all the lying catching up with him?
I read that former POWs have a lower life expectancy than other men the same age.
anyway, he seems weak and "rickety," as another poster said. and cranky and mean like Grandpa Simpson/Mr. Burns
how long would this guy survive before passing the country onto Church Lady?
I'm watching from the next table over to your right at the Ath. Obama's face during McCain's "I've got bad news" rant was the quintessential "are you kidding me?" look if I've ever seen it.
30 seconds into it, Obama's environmental answer is light years beyond the nuclear/off shore/alternative plan that McCain has used as an answer for every other environmental question he has been asked
Yeah, I didn't even understand the 6:12 brother. All I got was "what it is?"
Boy, Brokaw sure has a bee in his bonnet tonight. Yeesh!
OK Tom, enough! Either take control or stop with the whining about time!
Oh, no he didn't == "That one"????
Yes, good question - and nice turn on Barry's part, "Not just a challenge but an opportunity." Trite but nice.
"You hear that Lizabeth? I'm coming to join you, honey!"
i know i am a liberal elite...but grandpa simpson just comes off as a nasty smirking jerk
why on earth is McCain talking in such an unnaturally high, transparently "friendly" voice??? its so grating!
Obama looked petty when he literally pointed his finger at McCain and said he was just trying to keep up in time. It was obvious that he was just trying to keep up; he didn't have to say it. It was especially damaging in the context of camera shots of Obama repeatedly trying to follow up on the follow ups. McCain came out on top of that one by addressing the issue.
McCain is impressing me but I think Obama is still doing well and dismissing the "scary guy" charge. I'd say right now it hinges on how the finger pointing goes over. I could see how it would make a damaging photo.
Someday, TNC, you're going to have to tell us the genesis of "weak sauce." I've been using that phrase for the past month or so, and hopefully in the right context.
I dont know about y'all, but I've been watching on CNN, so i can see the undecided tracker on the bottom screen. And for what its worth, it just plummets every time Obama or McCain take a shot at the other, be it there record or their response, essentially whenever they mention the others name. If this is representative of anything, McCain's new "gloves-off" approach ain't gonna pay off like he needs it to
Thanks for the shout-out. I have to say I'm surprised by your contention that no one will be swayed by tonight's debate. Certainly it's more boring due to the lack of direct and freewheeling exchanges between the candidates, but I think Obama can continue to pick up independents by once again appearing more presidential than McCain.
Damn, I missed the hair transplant joke while talking to kid. Hi TNC!
The format of the last 2 debates, where they don't engage or have follow-ups, is really dumb. "Debate" should have more meaning. Palin's inadequacies are never clearer than when she's flubbing a follow-up question. But I think Fallows has a good point, about the lasting impressions being framed by the issues, but also being independent of them--he sounds confident on the economy, he sounds like he would keep us safe, he sounds like he has the right temperament.
Am I wrong, or is Brokaw totally rolling over for McCain during this thing? He seems to let McCain go over time without interruption, but he actually broke in while Obama was answering one of McCain's straw man attacks.
to answer a previous question, i think McCain is standing up during Barack's answers because it would take too long for him to get out of his chair so many times... sounds mean but i definitely think thats the case
"A cool hand at the tiller." McCain hasn't impressed me as that.
Hair transplant joke was an obvious pander to identify with the disproportionate number of very bald men in the audience (take a look - its true). Very shrewd, Senator McCain.
I must say it, since no one else has:
E'll hold the record so the needle won't budge.
weak sauce = wack juice = lame
Actually the reason you have a problem in Pakistan is that when 9/11 happened, there was a military dictator in power in Pakistan and Bush forgave all that to get his cooperation. Seven years later the Pakistan political situation has become more radical and now you have a worse situation to deal with.
I dunno. I actually think the "I don't understand" riff was a bit of great timing. The undecided folks with controls in Ohio really seemed to respond to that.
Uh, but Obama saying "I will kill bin Laden" was not a good look. For some reason, it didn't feel right coming from him. That's McCain's bag. Let him come off like the homicidal president.
Re your 7:10 comment. Yeah, he's dreamy, but the words are part of the dream.
maybe McCain is actually only interested in one part of the president job--the military part.
Ya think?
Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran...
if he knows how to get Bin Laden, what the hell is stopping him? Thats the second time he's said that phrase that i've heard, its so meaningless!
Huh. Obama was very strong initially on Pakistan, and McCain really sounded confused at first. But he finished stronger. Obama's response to that was a bit rambling; McCain is hitting his stride in the responses, remembering the strategy.
TNC and Jim, thanks for the response. You're never too old to learn some new slang.
I don't like mccain's demeanor. As a psychologist, I would like a president who is more real and down to earth than some fake man who wants to transplant fake hair on his head.
McCain's repeated line about Obama not admitting he was wrong on the surge doesn't seem to work with the Ohio voters.
Re 7:09-- That's always been my impression. If there were come C-in-C job that wasn't the presidency, McCain would be running for that one instead. Over time McCain has gotten *less* compelling on the military/GWOT stuff because he's assimilated it into a generic shitty conservative political appeal, but as recently as a year or two ago he was admirable in his tenacity and in his acceptance of war-as-sacrifice...he was dead wrong but he wasn't someone to be dismissed as a blowhard who prostitutes our military's sacrifices for political gain. Now, alas, he is.
Thanks for that, tinare--he sounded really weak on the radio.
As for the feminine thing--I can't even see him, but he sounds presidential. Kennedyesque. Calm and knowledgeable and steady. McCain sounds...not.
Evil question is dumb. At least they both ignored the yes/no requirement.
Brokaw seems to be allowing McCain to talk past his time and then remind Obama not to do the same before he actually starts talking... thats really been bugging me throughout this debate.
And what kind of question was that "Evil Empire?" Can we please bury the reagan talk? This was 20+ years ago man, stop trying to force these easy historical comparisons! Russia today is no where near their USSR strength, how could neither of them brought that up.
Also, After the last 8 years i figured that both candidates would be weary of making good/evil classifications when dealing with foreign relations
TNC - saw the "that one" comment. People will either get worked up about it, or write it off as a figure of speech / turn of phrase that didn't come off smoothly. I didn't think it was that big a deal.
The league of democracies is back? Thought that wasn't playing well?
And if I were drinking on "my friends"...
For the record, I noticed the "that one" comment when it happened and was taken by how rude it was.
McCain did point at Obama and say "That one." Burton already sent an e-mail about it and both Ambinder and Sullivan were discussing it as well. Didn't look good and I don't think, though he cannot really help it, McCain looks good in his physical movements and gestures in general.
i agree about the whole "that one" thing, it really was a non-issue
When McCain said "that one", yikes! The condescension is astonishing (and not working, so why keep it up?)
TNC- saw the "that one" comment. I was initially shocked. Thinking back on it, not as offended. I think McCain was going for "Which one would you think voted for it- this one (self) or that one (him)?" Not how it came across, which seemed rather dereogetory. Only an hour worth of reflection has allowed me to give McCain the benefit of the doubt.
McCain just brought up the League of Democracies again. Unbelievable. (Ross will be furious.)
Does he not realize this is a losing idea? It's just the "coalition of the willing" with a thin veneer or international legitimacy over it.
I saw the "that one" comment. I couldn't believe my ears. Incredibly arrogant and disrespectful.
that being said, it ain't gonna help johnny mac
Obama's final response is shaping up to be the best non-answer of the night out of both of them
I wasn't looking when McCain said "that one" but it made me jump a little. It just sounded sharp, and like something my grandmother would have said when criticizing me as a child.
wow no way McCain is topping that
Agh, that should read "a thin veneer of international legitimacy". My bad. iPhone auto-correct is killing me.
Obama is finishing really strong. And in the previous question, he was great on what we accomplished by naming North Korea and Iran as prime enemies and then attacking Iraq, the one least likely to have nuclear weapons.
McCain is up...okay, I almost dozed off there. Bit stronger on the bit about his parents, but this final bit seems to be all POW without mentioning POW...most of us haven't been POWs, can we never be as patriotic as McCain?
Okay, he closed with "steady hand on the tiller" again and stated that his life was defined by putting his country above himself...didn't sound strong here, as though he looks down on those who were not held captive for 5 1/2 years...
That bio crap was killer? I was just glad he didn't go Kenyan dad on us again.
Marc has YouTube of "that one." Eh. Not a big deal to me, but you never know what will break out.
I think, overall, McCain did himself no favors in this debate--no McCain ReSurge, and a lot of pauses and seeming confusion, sounded whiny, the "steady hand at the tiller" meme can't counter "erratic" when all his actions support the latter.
Asher, it was a really strong pivot. In tough and uncertain economic times, he reminds us that he grew up under such. But this country's marvelous opportunities let him go to the best schools and make a great life for himself...his wife too. And McCain reminded us that most of us have sacrificed less than he has--I thought the bit about his parents much, much, much stronger.
That's a thing I've had with McCain for a while--are only those who have sacrificed for the country patriots? I was a Peace Corps volunteer so maybe I qualify, but most of us are not veterans, most of us were not pows, yet we still are patriots who love our country.
Yes, I heard the "that one" and I said ... oh shit ,he did NOT just say that.
Speaking as pale pale pale white guy, did it seem a bit over the top that Katie Couric asked about "that guy" the one black guy on the panel? Or is that just good news?
Okay, shorter: Obama reminded us of how his family, ordinary people, struggled and sacrificed just like so many to create opportunities for the child, him. And that his path shows what a great country this is, a true land of opportunity. McCain reminds us that he has come from an elite military family, and that he has suffered more than most of us. Which he has. But if I want someone who understands what it is to worry about normal middle class worries, Obama sounds like he understands; McCain sounds like he thinks we're all ungrateful whippersnappers who don't understand real suffering.
I've just heard it so many times before, and in fairness, McCain didn't remind us that he came from an elite military family; that's just your personal spin. However, Obama did win this debate by a huge margin, I just wasn't moved by the bio. Or the thing with the mom, which was strangely detached. It was like he was talking about a voter he met on the trail whose mother died in the hospital, not himself. Hillary used to put more emotion into her fictitious healthcare horror stories than he put into his real one about his mother. But other than that, pretty sound thrashing of McCain.
Poor McCain, his people just have nothing for Obama's campaign.
1)Announce 'taking the gloves off' and attack
2)Piss off media with agressivness/ridiculousness
3)Do not attack at debate
4)Media says you lose cause you not aggresive
Gross incompetence for a campaign that seems to have no substance beyond trying to manipulate a news cycle. If you are going to do it, at least be good at it.
Axelrod/Plouffe know how to do this.
What in God's name was McCain thinking making that minute long ramble where he kept repeating "Iraq" and "judgement"? Practically making Obama's point for him for him, for crying out loud.
On the disdain topic, CNN footage of the handshaking afterward showed McCain refusing to shake Obama's hand again.
Is anyone watching the post-debate feed? McCain and his wife left after a few minutes. Obama and Michelle, meanwhile, stuck around with the audience, talking and shaking hands. Some of the people gathered around them and started taking pictures. After about twenty minutes, the audience (apparently uncommitted voters before the debate) were chanting "Obama! Obama! Obama!"
canuck,
I noticed that too, also TPM has the video of the end showing that McCain clearly brushed off shaking Obama's hand.
7:10 Man, everytime Obama talks the bar for women just shoot up. I don't want to be sexist, but come on ladies, you ain't heard a word he said! Admit it! Your just thinking "He's soooooo dreammmyyyy..."
HELLZ YEAH! The eye-candy factor is a big one. I almost fell over laughing when one of the news article headlines was "Obama has large lead among single women voters".... gee, I wonder why that would be... ;)
The thing I got out of the "that one" comment was a portrait of a man seething and getting dangerously close to letting that angers just pour out at the wrong time. If his and Palin's rhetoric on trail was ugly leading up to this debate, it'll be nothing compared to the barrage that'll be coming between now and the third one.
None of you youngsters in the blogosphere seem to get it, but the "Hair transplant" crack is a dig at Biden. Fact is McCain is only used to talking before RW loonies, who'd all cheer the reference. Normal people, unless they're old enough to remember all the ridicule Biden took at the time, would have no idea what McCain's talking about.
Similarly, how many times did he mention Ike and Reagan tonite. Ugh!
I actually thought McCain came off pretty well (with the exception of his finger-pointing incident) and Obama did reasonably well. I guess the dials and focus groups claim that Obama was a clear winner, but that (to me) has more to do with the fallacy of undecided voters and reflects the lean that those voters (controlling the dials) had before entering the debates.
McCain threw a small curveball - a slider, let's say - with his mortgage renegotiation gambit. I don't think he's serious about it, but exorbitant promises might be the next thing for his ticket...
Unfortunately I missed most of the debate as I was at a "debate" meetup but we ended up talking politics and religion amongst ourselves the entire time. That is what I get for going to a meetup at a bar.
So... My only question following the debate is WHY THE HELL DO THEY HAVE TO CLOSE OFF MY ROAD HOME AFTERWARDS?????!?!?! I'm not kidding. I had to sit an a parking lot waiting for the police to get out of the way so I could go 1 block down the street to my apt complex.
By the time the cops moved Obama was still at Belmont. So I can obviously blame McCain for me having to wait 20 extra minutes to get that last block home.
I think I know why Obama is doing so well with women and it isn't because he is dreamy although he is incredibly attractive when you consider the total package (slightly above average looks + educated + committed to his family + successful + smart)
Anyway, it occurred to me today that he might be the first ever potential president who actually knows what today's American woman expects in a husband, and is looking for in a president too. When he said that healthcare is a right and talked about children specifically I was all hallelujah. Women have known this for a long time. Now a potential president seems to realize it. Oh my god. No wonder ladies love him.
Just a comment for TNC:
Not everyone reads your commentary in real time, or has the blow-by blow of thing timed in her head to the minute. It would be helpful if you described what you're commenting on in addition to the comment.
THAT ONE?
THAT ONE?
When the old White guy, who wouldn't even LOOK at his younger Black opponent in the last debate, calls him ' THAT ONE'
Yeah, I noticed.
foo
that one?
mccain is losing it.
it was so inappropriate, so rude at the time it happened that i, as others have similarly stated, snapped to attention, and thought,
he really didn't say that, did he?
now, i didn't get mad about it, cause i just think it's a sign of how close to the edge mccain is...
i laughed out loud, again, because i just couldn't believe he just did it.
but, then, i have a sick sense of humor.
now, was there a racial subtext?
i REALLY don't think so.
i just think that mccain is a great big, a@#hole, and he struggles mightily to contain it.
he got real close to saying that kind of thing to romney in the primaries, and if they'd been on the stage alone together, i could easily have imagined him saying something similar to romney.
in fact, i was rooting for him to say something like that to romney.
mccain's lack of impulse control is legendary. i think that is exactly what "that one" reveals.
Shooter, I have to agree - it was really odd that McCain would agree to this format where he would end up looking so much like Fred Sanford in the junk yard debating with Lamont. Weird flashback indeed!
Somebody will probably set debate footage to the theme music on YouTube.
As for "that one", growing up on Chicago's south side in the '60s & '70s, I often heard white folks refer to black people & us (Mexican Americans) as "that one". Couldn't believe that McCain would use that term. Amazing.
Winner: The Replacements. I just put on the Replacements' greatest hits-ish album and Paul Westerberg is singing about jumping off a water tower.
What happened tonight again?
"That one."
Classic! The hottest catch phrase since "You betcha!"
*wink*
Can't Hardly Wait Joel?
Heh, I'm no kid, but we've been using "weak sauce" in MMO's for years. It's the opposite of "hot sauce" you see. If something's good, it's spicy, if it is boring and doesn't hold your attention at all, it's weak sauce.
OK folks live blogging starts now. I'd be shocked if McCain doesn't do well. I'd also be shocked if Obama tries to run out the clock. I really think he's going for the kill--even if its killing him softly. Also I'm on Pacific time, Don't let it freak you out. – from Oct 7. Everything freaks out Dave Brown. “Toys Are Us” is a trademark. “Dave Brown Is Permanently Insane and Freaked Out” is a trademark.
I watched the first five minutes of the second Obama vs. McCain debate. I got so scared I couldn’t watch. I saw a moderator, two confident men, and four electric-blue, decayed, half-rotted, shimmering, half-human images. The four ghosts reminded me of a display of the Northern lights that I saw one summer night in the sky over the South Side of Chicago many years ago – but with demons crawling out of a cocaine’s addict’s hallucinations. I believe the four things were the ghosts of Malcolm X, Nat Turner, Teddy Roosevelt, and Stonewall Jackson.
Emerson wrote, “There is a capacity of virtue in us, and there is a capacity of vice to make the blood creep.” Does Senator Obama haunt us with the image of Malcolm X’s violent revolution and massive wealth redistribution? Does Senator McCain haunt us with the image of Teddy Roosevelt’s racist imperialism and massive nuclear war?
Is every gathering of people a house of God – merely because people have souls? Emerson wrote, “The house praises the carpenter.” Is the U.S.A. a house founded by two gods: Satan and Yahweh?
Is God both a false hypothesis and a human necessity? Consider 12 hypotheses on politics, religion, placebo power, and words:
1. Politics is dead on arrival without emotion, God, and placebo power.
2. God is a machine that people drive with belief to reach placebo power.
3. God is a machine that allows atheists to substitute metaphor for belief and thereby gain some placebo power based upon spiritual leverage.
4. If you have a significant problem named Junior, then the problem might not go away until Junior becomes a senior. In politics, if people created a problem with low level thinking, then they might need time and high level thinking to solve or get rid of the problem. To raise children and to practice politics both require social interaction, communication, God, and placebo power.
5. Honesty, empathy, and God are the three keys to communication.
6. God might be the spiritual essence of the human experience, but God must be a lightning bolt in individual belief in order to maximize the potential of placebo power.
7. Placebo power is, almost by definition, bogus in terms of physics and chemistry.
8. Words can be useful false idols that have great value in placebo power.
9. Rudyard Kipling wrote, “Words are, of course, the most powerful drug used by mankind.” Religious words that inspire joy share many of the brain’s dopaminergic mechanisms with recreational drugs. Molecular neuroscience might unite religion, science, and cocaine addiction. Any activity without religion is lame. Any activity without politics is hermetic. Words, prayer, and money are essential to politics.
10. People need a basic understanding of God, ghosts, mania, schizophrenia, science, religion, and altered states of consciousness. Without God or Higher Power, it is impossible to understand language, culture, history, and other people. The main tool used by Alcoholics Anonymous and Overeaters Anonymous must be what? God, of course. The recovering addict needs God or Higher Power to bring forth the psychological magic of placebo power. The spiritual community of fellow sufferers promote placebo healing through communication, social interaction, and the teamwork of worship of the mysterious power called “God,” “Brahma,” “Higher Power,” or semi-bogus placebo power. The overeater is addicted to food that tastes good. If it tastes good, then don’t eat it- or don’t eat much of it. Only God can help you eat a bland, monotonous diet and exercise with consistency. God must help us communicate with each other and practice politics in a reasonable, Godly way with understanding , compromise, and mutual help. Unfortunately, in terms of physics and chemistry, God is merely an incorrect hypothesis, contradicted by the experimental evidence of quantum electrodynamics. Therefore, we must realize three things:
A. Everything is a mixture of myth, metaphor, and reality. B. Everyone has an immortal soul of unspeakable, unknowable value. C. We must read the works of Aldous Huxley, Oliver Sacks, Balzac, Alice Walker, Danielle Steele, Erica Jong, the guy who wrote about Beale Street, and those other people who wrote discarded diaries and wailed lamentations that were forgotten because the wailers were illiterate and had no pen and paper anyway; after these readings and karmic gatherings, we must use science, religion, politics, economics, and street language to synthesize God in pop culture.
11. People who cannot understand Francis Cricks’s scientific ideas and Einstein’s psychological ideas must fail to understand politics, God, and placebo power.
12. The greatest insight of all time is Einstein’s observation, “Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.”
*** Should political debate at the top be about God, spiritual and political consensus, and merging together religion and science?
Dave: wanna what? Whatta who? Whatever happened to Jae Millz?
Anyway, the election's over and there's no sense in paying attention anymore, though some folks will get their jollies off of being all self-righteous about how terribly bigoted McCain's campaign will become (and is becoming).
.... you know, Wrath of the Lich King will be coming out shortly after the election.
Just saying. If it frees up some time....
Celeste Fremon at WitnessLA blog caught this post-debate meltdown at FOX:
In a very odd moment I happened to catch at FOX News, conservative polster Frank Lutz, who had gathered together a focus group to watch the debate, asked for a show of hands as to who won the thing. Unfortunately for Lutz, the majority said Obama had won. This didn’t work for Lutz. Nor did it work for FOX anchor, Brit Hume, who began looking a bit sickly.
Lutz decided he could save what was turning into an icky situation. (After all, he’s Frank Lutz always the smartest guy in the room, just ask him.) So he eyed one guy whom he’d determined was a McCain supporter and said, “But people said that McCain was better on the economy, why did you think so?” (Or words to that effect.) The McCain guy immediately catches the tossed ball. “Oh yes,” he says and proceeded to expound as to why.
So, says a slightly cheered Hume, the majority thought that Senator McCain did better on the economy?
Yes, beams Lutz. But then he made a fatal mistake. He turned to his focus group members and asked them how many thought McCain did the best on the economy.
Around six out of the 25 panel members raised their hands. At that juncture, Lutz was not foolish enough to ask how many think that Obama did better on the economy. Instead, he simply lied. “Okay, that’s about half who thought McCain did better,” says Lutz, lying like a rug, as the camera quickly cuts away.
http://witnessla.com/
@Asher: Okay, elite was my interpretation, but before seguing into how he knows what it is to suffer, to depend on others, he talked about his mother raising the family while his father was away serving his country. Which I thought was strong, but pivoting into his own suffering rather than "we knew the worries of any kitchen table" weakened it.
This is something that has bothered me since McCain started talking up patriotism and country first--by his definition, am I a patriot? is anyone here? I knew he'd written books about great Americans who sacrificed for country, but until the past few months hadn't heard him speaking about patriotism and sacrifice so explicitly. Is it only Adams and Roosevelt and navy fighter pilots in wartime who can truly claim the mantle of patriot?
In bed with my wife after the debate, and she mentions a story she saw on Politico; something from an "unnamed close friend of McCain, who says McCain's grumpy because he is "being force" to run a campaign he doesn't want to run.
The fuck?!?
This really really really pisses me off. Either A: you get your one and last shot, and then don't have the stones to do it the way you want to do it; or B: you know you're going down, taking your reputation with you, and now, three weeks before election day, you're spinning the loss.
Either way this is punk-ass bullshit.
A year ago, Andy was hoping for a Obama/McCain election. Said it would be elevating to the national discourse. Well we got it, and instead of two leaders with different visions making their case, we've ended up with this dottering old fool, who's turned the most important presidential election of my lifetime into a joke.
I'm pissed.
Do the ghosts of Theodore Roosevelt and Malcolm X haunt the U.S.A.? Does the ghost of TR, along with white racist imperialism and nuclear mushroom clouds, haunt McCain? From Wikipedia:
In The Winning of the West (1889–1896), Roosevelt's frontier thesis stressed a racial struggle between "civilization" (white, especially Germanic peoples) and supposed savagery (of people of color, i.e., Native American Indians). Excerpts:
1. "The settler and pioneer have at bottom had justice on their side; this great continent could not have been kept as nothing but a game preserve for squalid savages."
2. "The most ultimately righteous of all wars is a war with savages."
3. "American and Indian, Boer and Zulu, Cossack and Tartar, New Zealander and Maori, — in each case the victor, horrible though many of his deeds are, has laid deep the foundations for the future greatness of a mighty people."
4. "..it is of incalculable importance that America, Australia, and Siberia should pass out of the hands of their red, black, and yellow aboriginal owners, and become the heritage of the dominant world races."
5. "The world would have halted had it not been for the Teutonic conquests in alien lands; but the victories of Moslem over Christian have always proved a curse in the end. Nothing but sheer evil has come from the victories of Turk and Tartar."
On August 13 and 14, 1906, Brownsville, Texas was the site of what has come to be known as the Brownsville Affair. Racial tensions were high between white townsfolk and black infantrymen stationed at Fort Brown. On the night of August 13th, one white bartender was killed and a white police officer was wounded by rifle shots in the street. Townsfolk, including the mayor, accused the infantrymen as the murderers. Without a chance to defend themselves in a hearing, President Roosevelt dishonorably discharged the entire 167 member regiment due to their accused "conspiracy of silence". Further investigations in the 1970s found that the black infantrymen were not at fault, and the Nixon Administration reversed all of the dishonorable discharges.
Does the ghost of Malcolm X, along with violent revolution and wealth distribution, haunt Obama?
You show me a capitalist, and I'll show you a bloodsucker.
Malcolm X
"You show me a capitalist, and I'll show you a bloodsucker. "
Hey TNC, remember a few days back you asked me about the virulent anti-commerce strain that runs through the left?
Anyone else see Hitchen's take?
"The strained indeed agonized politeness about all this goes on and may even continue for a bit longer but I repeat what I wrote just after the last “debate”. Senator John McCain is at least on the frontier of senility and may well have crossed it.
...
when are we going to be honest about mentioning the elephant in the room, or the vacant headroom in the elephant?"
http://blogs.mirror.co.uk/hitchens/2008/10/obama-trounces-mccain-in-nashv.html
Ouch.
Nobama got schooled (and righteously so) by John McCain, and the gibbering wails of despair from the Ayers-enabling left are deafening in the extreme.
Remember this, you dishonorable cadre of America-hating traitors: Old Glory survived the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor and went on to massively triumph over its enemies. In this regard, so, too, will our great nation and all true American patriots inevitably triumph over underhanded smears vomited against the future President John McCain and Vice President Sarah Palin by the traitorous left.
Country First.
What struck me most?
1. Attack in Pakistan.
2. Kill Bin Laden.
3. Evil in Russia.
There's a standing cliche in American politics about the Democrat/liberal/East-coast guy/Ivy Leaguer. Those guys, it's said, are too soft on our enemies, too interested in talking, and either scared of a fight or too dumb to know when a fight is required.
Obama, without fanfare, rules that out in every debate, with points like the ones above.
Because Obama is quiet-tough rather than loud-tough, the media doesn't grab those sound-bites.
Nevertheless, I think he's steadily closing sales with folks that worry about him being "soft." Not every sale, but enough to bring back some of those "Reagan Democrats," those "Joe Six-Pack" voters.
The comparisons to JFK really aren't just about looks and rhetoric.
@Atanarjuat,
I think someone watered down your meds. Maybe your psychiatrist is one of those 'traitorous left.'?
Obama won, McCain did okay (he didn't make any major gaffes). But given the way things are, he needed to hit it out of the ballpark. He didn't. I also think the 'that one' comment is going to come back and bite him in the behind.
@Tony Comstock
I think there is a grain of truth there. McCain has looked distinctly uncomfortable of late, like someone forced to wear a pair of ill fitting shoes. Palin's forte is the under-handed attack, when McCain does it, it just comes off as akward.
I have to admit, it was poor.
So poor I've gone back to thinking of Strom Thurmond when I whack one out.
Nobama got schooled (and righteously so) by John McCain, and the gibbering wails of despair from the Ayers-enabling left are deafening in the extreme.
Remember this, you dishonorable cadre of America-hating traitors: Old Glory survived the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor and went on to massively triumph over its enemies. In this regard, so, too, will our great nation and all true American patriots inevitably triumph over underhanded smears vomited against the future President John McCain and Vice President Sarah Palin by the traitorous left.
Country First.
Posted by Atanarjuat | October 8, 2008 10:50 AM
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from this point on i plan to enjoy the entertainments on display.