In a recent Bloggingheads dialogue, Ta-Nehisi Coates admitted to me that Iowa had forced him to "reassess" his pessimism as to how far America has come on race. If Obama loses, people like Coates will desist in their reassessments, and settle back into their cognitive comfort zone.It's true, I blame the White Man at any opportunity. Were it not for The White Man I'd already have a genius grant, and be on my third Pulitzer. My son got in trouble today at school. The first question I asked the
This topic crops up once a month it seems. And so we have a furious debate, again, over how much racism will cost Obama in November. Hmm, well it'll probably cost him something, but this seems to me to be a giant unknowable. I also agree that there are some transperency issues here.Here I am on the wisdom of spending your days focused on white racists:
One of the things that's shocked a lot of people is Obama, and his campaign's, unwillingness to talk about how many votes he may lose because of racism. The CW is that any talk about racism loses Obama even more votes. But there's another--arguably more important--reason not to spend much time dwelling on racism--it's a bad way to compete. No great football player sits around worrying about the refs and the crowd-noise.
And more inside the head of Ta-Nehisi:
And despite all of that, a specifically organic black conservative outlook is the closest thing I have to religion. It's just what I believe. This is real talk for you: If you're frustrated by my reluctance to engage in a fight over whether something is racist or not, or whether proven racism matters or not, I understand. But it really boils down to this--I'm not very interested in trying to show racist white people, and non-racist white people who defend them, the error of their ways. As a black person, I'm just kind of "Meh." I do it from time to time, but by in large I think we make a huge mistake when we continually view the fate of black folks through the prism of "what are white people thinking?"And here I am on what will happen in black America if our boy goes down:
That's why an Obama defeat would be met with resignation more than rage. No one is more tired of talking about racism than black people. The disenchantment with protest politics, the fatigue from refighting old battles over school integration and affirmative action, even the rise of politicians like Massachusetts governor Deval Patrick point to a shift in the disposition of black America. The big issues of the day aren't so much racial profiling and police brutality as the achievement gap, the incarceration rate and unemployment. The great race conversation has not only decreased in volume; for black people, it's also become much more introverted. At this moment, black America is in the grips of a kind of barbershop conservatism that is more concerned with its own progress than with the attitudes of whites.As to John's specific charge, I don't know what people John is referring to. It can't be the same black community that thinks Bill Cosby and Oprah Winfrey are better influences than Al Sharpton and Barack Obama. It can't be the same black community that's supported Barack Obama, virtually unanimously, even as he (rightfully) upraided them for not doing for self.
So that leaves me, no? Well here's the thing. My record on grievance-mongers is pretty clear. Moreover, I have no idea what my assessment will be if Barack loses, and if I were that stilted in my thinking, than all of you should stop reading me right now. No seriously, the day I take comfort in any one unitary theory of the world, the day you see me slinging singular explanations for big complicated phenomena, is the day you should forget my name. There's nothing comfortable about writing--it involves repeatedly interrogating yourself and your own assumptions. It's hard and its awful, and you often find you're wrong--even about white people. Especially about white people. May it always be so.
The Beautiful Struggle: A Father, Two Sons, and an Unlikely Road to Manhood 
you and Matt Y. should join the liberal guardian angels and keep the streets safe for liberals all night long and ride the train and stuff.
Might I say that you just sonned John McWhorter? Self high five, I'm too white to pull that off convincingly. I'm only allowed to use slang that's at least three years old
But honestly, how can you not find this infuriating? It's not like he distorted your positions--he clearly just doesn't read you much and lumped you in the "racially onscious young black writers I disagree with" bag. He put you in a preconceived category to dismiss your views, like a... I just can't say it but like a you-know-what would
Rumor has it McWhorter is drawing up a sample "Coates Essay," with slogans like "The Man be holding me down" and pictures of Kool-Aid.
Mr Coates,
You have to see this clip of sitting Congress woman Michelle Bachmann of Minnesota saying that Barack Obama is anti-American on "Hardball with Chris Matthews". She also said there should be a "hard hitting investigation" into how many sitting Congressmen and women are anti American. Seriously you have to watch it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESdA52S4Dbg
But how can you validate my subconscious racism, which colors every action I take as a white woman (and believe me, I don't take any other kind), if you won't even acknowledge it? I feel so disrespected...
Yeesh. Intellectually, when we stop reassessing, we die.
The more I hear from this cat, the more I wonder who in the hell listens to him. I remember listening to him talk about the people who listened to him when you two debated a while back. Who the hell does? Honestly, I really want to know. McWhorter sounds like every other radio or TV hack job out there who passes off obtuse and half-assed points as provocative thought.
Ta-nehisi - you have to have thicker skin than that. Your bigger than that. Let it slide. Your work for the Atlantic, your not some two-bit anonymous blogger that needs to go over the top defending his self against criticism.
McWhorter is not writing for any crowd that has any interest in knowing what you write, or what your (on the record) opinions are. He's reinforcing a stereotype they don't need evidence to believe in. You can't fight it.
In here you're preaching to the choir. To his readers, your what he says you are and they have no interest in knowing more than that. Just brush it off your shoulder and move on. You're in the big leagues now.
Hmmm, something seems fishy. Why would McWhorter make a statement about what you and a whole swath of Black Americans like you will be thinking without consulting Billy Dee first?
It's kinda unbelievable, and there was no link to his quote or anything... you being straight up with us TNC?
The first question I asked the principle was "Where was The White Man, and how long had he been there.
Principal. Principles are values, principals are people. If you don't know, now you know.
So on my facebook today, I saw this interesting event at SUNY Buffalo that kinda ties back to the 'sistagirls' discussion a day ago:
Event: why do black men need black women
Host:
Phi Beta Sigma fraternity Inc. Along with Zeta Phi Beta Sorority Inc.
Description: A discussion on if [sic] black man [sic again] can succeed in life without a black woman's presence in their life regarding love, career, family and friends.
I mean, isn't sentiment like this in large part just driven by black women fearing that, if black guys go for white women, they won't have anyone to marry? I'll be honest here - I date black girls, but I know deep down that I'm marrying a Jew, and not some black girl so besotted with me that she converts to Judaism either. And I think most white men feel the same way about marrying black women. So I can see the motivations behind the sentiment, but I don't see why it needs to be cloaked in this "a black man can't succeed in life without a black woman's presence" nonsense.
Whoops, sorry Green. Link is there now. And Jack, I once let my anger over something John wrote do a number on me. I said something I couldn't defend and had to retract and apologize. Better to not say shit you can't defend, no?
I find it fascinating that younger liberals (although TNC is on the older end of the younger generation) simply aren't interested in having the old arguments all over again. From either side. They just throw out the paradigms and find new ones.
Younger conservatives, on the other hand, seem to have nothing at all but old arguments. Or slogans, really.
Also, what's wrong with a reassessment? A lot of people do see the outcome of this election as a reflection of racial views in America. How can one not??? What's wrong with that?? It seems only natural.
Is it fair to McCain that this election is, to some degree, a referendum on race in America? No. But thats a natural, and rational, way to view the election.
Obama winning the presidency doesn't not mean that race is 'solved' in America. Obama losing the presidency does not mean 'the Man' is keeping us down. But either outcome is significant in terms of how one views race in America. Let's not pretend to be Stephen Colbert's absurd race-blind character in the Colbert Report. That would just be dishonest.
Younger conservatives, on the other hand, seem to have nothing at all but old arguments. Or slogans, really.
No doubt that conservatism is pretty intellectually dead nowadays. I remain hopeful, though, that sooner or later we'll see a new breed of conservative thinkers.
Deleted.
I knew it. McWhorter is playing the "he doesn't like white people" card.
That question he asked you on bloggingheads about him sensing a deep seated dislike of white people and the pugnacity of rap. I was actually quite pissed about it. Look around! Did you happen to notice that A working class redneck with 10th grade education lives on 1 acre of land and has 30 year mortgage, while equivalent black person lives in 300 square feet surrounded by cinder blocks in the ghetto? Do you really expect black people to not be at least apprehensive of white people after 200 years of mistreatment? I mean really.
Give.Us.A.Break!
I wonder if he'll feel a little bit ashamed about this line later. What could be more ungenerous than acknowledging someone's willingness to adjust their views according to events on the ground and then throwing it back in their face by telling them they'll never change?
McWhorter wants black folk to let go of racism. But is he ready to let go of his image of himself as the only black man not hung up on racism?
BTW, before this election is over I want to Ari Melber vs. Nancy Pfotenhauer (sp?) face off in one of these McDebates they have on the cable news channels. This one is my favorite.
Michele Bachmann is an embarrassment to the great state of Minnesota and its 6th congressional districts. Seriously.
I'll be honest here - I date black girls, but I know deep down that I'm marrying a Jew, and not some black girl so besotted with me that she converts to Judaism either. And I think most white men feel the same way about marrying black women.
What the heck? I would never have dated a black guy while preemptively ruling out marrying him. I hope most white guys don't feel that way about marrying black women, and if they do, I sure hope they make that clear to any black women they're dating, rather than leaving them to think they might actually be just as much a marriage prospect as any other woman the guy wants to date.
Lots of people date others they wouldn't dream of marrying; it often has nothing to do with race.
Part of dating, of course, is deciding if he or she is The One (or FTM That One) that you will marry. Some people intend to never marry. Before finding the handsome princess, you gotta kiss a few toads, and all that.
But not for all--some people date for other reasons (sex, emotional fulfillment, looking cool, whatever)--as long as both sides know what they're getting into, I don't have any problem. Problems occur when one partner isn't honest with the other about his/her goals/desires.
I'm a white guy, and I certainly don't feel "that way" concerning black women, or women of every race.
Of course, I'm now off the market--married to a Chinese woman. Why? Nothing to do with race or racial politics, she's who I fell in love with. Nothing more. We've got four wonderful kids.
Regarding John the Prophet--he's just a right-wing gasbag. Not worth your time, TNC.
I read the McWhorter article in TNR, and it just came off as tedious and pompous, not to mention largely substance-free.
A series of fluffed up assertions that for black people it's all about being able to cry "racism".
I used to like TNR a lot (as offering a centrist-liberal intellectual take on things) but they sure do squeeze out some dry turds sometimes.
So is McWhorter just some right wing hack quoting Peggy Noonan and Wisconsin GOP chairman as some kind of independent authorities or deep thinkers?
Hmm, yes, the Manhattan Institute where McWhorter hails from seems to be a hack-tank.
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/
Flogging the Ayers story and so on ...
Now I wonder why it's even worth paying attention to him. It's the usual right-wing technique of smears by means of series of sketchy assertions.
You know, I have had several Jewish friends express the exact same sentiment to me (about non-Jews in general, not black people) without the slightest inkling that it might be offensive to say "yeah, I'd date your kind, but I sure wouldn't marry you," or that it's pretty unfair to date someone, even seriously, without letting them know that they're not on your list of eligible mates.
I don't have a problem with endogamy; marry whom you'd like. But I really don't get the belief that it's fine to maintain a racial or ethnic category of people whom you'd date but that you don't think well enough of to consider marrying as long as you express your prejudice positively--I need to marry a Jew--and not negatively--I'd never marry a black person.
I'm with Lynn. What the heck?
Ta-Nehisi,
You and John McWhorter are two of my most favorite people on the Web.
I've had visions of you two, together, helping take this country great leaps forward in getting an understanding of what's going on among us, black & white, and getting us down to the kind of humanity and mutual respect that's at the core of what That One stands for.
In my dreams, you two are going to become the black Shields & Brooks who, every week, in a number of different venues, in your thoughtful and civil tugs-of-war with each other, will help educate us all and help move us towards that more perfect union that many of us seek.
I've got very high hopes for you two.
No disrespect, but I'm going to cut on this interracial marriage piece. There's a thread going on it already. Take the discussion there.
Did you happen to notice that A working class redneck with 10th grade education lives on 1 acre of land and has 30 year mortgage, while equivalent black person lives in 300 square feet surrounded by cinder blocks in the ghetto?
So why do you think that is? I, for one, might suggest that it has something to do with the fact that that one acre of Appalachian land comes very cheaply, whereas an acre of land in a downtown part of a city costs millions. It's not like the redneck is so much wealthier than the equivalent black person; it's more that property is way cheaper in the country.
Deleted.
Read the comments below McWhorter's article. A few of them isolate well enough what I take to be its major problems.
It's indeed a strange piece of writing.
now wait just a muthfuckin minute. you mean to tell me john mcwhorter erected a strawman to attack rather than address the thesis of his opponent's argument??!?!?
well shit.
Fine, I'll move my reply to Asher (and EngineerScotty) over to the thread about the sistahgirls talking about how Obama better not cheat on Michelle with a white woman (I assume that is where TNC is directing this discussion).
Scathing defense. Alternatively, a useful instruction to visitors of your blog. Not that it's needed:
There's nothing comfortable about writing--it involves repeatedly interrogating yourself and your own assumptions. It's hard and its awful, and you often find you're wrong...
Hemingway was asked once what it took to be a great writer and he said: "Brutal Honesty"...
I think that's right on. And I think it's something writers should also remind themselves of when they're being criticized. Brutal honesty. Always.
Good. For. You.
Of course, I am begging the question of why poor black people live in what you call "the ghetto," while poorer white people are often found in underdeveloped rural areas. I would say, though, that one notion that the coverage of Palin-loving rednecks has disabused us of is that poor black kids are the only ones getting a raw deal on public education in this country. It's pretty obvious to me at least that we're not doing right by our poor rural rednecks either.
Ta-Nehisi, why do you hate America?
Deleted? Aw, that was my favorite post so far this month.
I'll be honest here - I date black girls, but I know deep down that I'm marrying a Jew, and not some black girl so besotted with me that she converts to Judaism either. And I think most white men feel the same way about marrying black women.
What the heck? I would never have dated a black guy while preemptively ruling out marrying him. I hope most white guys don't feel that way about marrying black women, and if they do, I sure hope they make that clear to any black women they're dating, rather than leaving them to think they might actually be just as much a marriage prospect as any other woman the guy wants to date.
Amen.
Be a man and tell the Black woman up front that you're interested in nothing but 'booty calls'. For a Black woman to ' cross the aisle', she's had to go through some 'soul searching'. If you're playing with her, make that clear, up front. You're fucking with hundreds of years of bad history between White men and Black women, Asher. You are doing those Black women no favors. Leave them the hell alone.
You wanna ' experiment' with Black women, call up an escort service and pay for it. Leave the earnest Sisters, who think that a relationship might actually go somewhere, ALONE.
McWhorter has had some great Bloggingheads with Glenn Loury (in my opinion) but when he was talking to Ta-Nehisi I thought he was way off. He seemed to think that TNC was trying to revive the black panthers or something. I think he's trying to get beyond race by denying its relevance whereas TNC takes a more fluid and dynamic approach. McWhorter seems to have a mental box in which he places TNC that doesn't really work. I was surprised that TNC didn't correct him more in the dialogue because the things he was saying seemed way off to me. I don't think our racial boxes work very well, and as a white man I think we all need to keep learning, so I wish TNC well on avoiding boxes and keep on calling things as he sees them.
Now, just a minute, sir. I'll have you know that a white man made that Macallans you're drinking right this very minute.
And always remember, the principal is your pal.
Mr. McWhorter, formerly an untenured assistant professor of linguistics, has made a lucrative career criticizing black people who make a career talking about race.
(Just once, I'd like to hear the guy say something interesting about linguistics like, "Did you know that an unaspirated "P" sound in Korean is actually its own phoneme, unlike in English where, of course, it's an allophone of the same phoneme.")
The New Republic, once a great magazine, has been Concern Troll Central since Reagan was president.
Asher, on the property value issue; yes, of course, land is cheaper in the country. So here's a question for you: why do black people tend to live in cities? Are they just better suited to city life? They just can't figure out that land in the country is cheaper?
Or...could there be a history of systematic segregation that has forced black people into cities where homes are harder to buy?
You should read James Loewen's Sundown Towns (here on amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Sundown-Towns-Hidden-Dimension-American/dp/156584887X). Then get back to us.
Like I said, Noah, I was begging that question. I'm sure systematic segregation played a role - then again, don't you think a lot of it is just a product of blacks moving up north post-Reconstruction into cities to get factory jobs?
steve n said:
"McWhorter has had some great Bloggingheads with Glenn Loury (in my opinion) but when he was talking to Ta-Nehisi I thought he was way off. He seemed to think that TNC was trying to revive the black panthers or something."
see, steve, mcwhorter knows and accepts, that loury, despite his rather checkered past, could run circles around him, intellectually, and in terms of life accomplishments and credentials, if he really wanted to do so.
both guys know it, so mcwhorter tones down his act quite a bit, when he interacts with loury. and loury holds back quite a bit. for whatever reason, he takes it easy on little johnny mcwhorter.
for reasons that i suspect have a lot to do with class, and formal education, and the fact that mr. coates is not quite as established as loury, mcwhorter does not feel so constrained when dealing with mr. coates. in my humble opinion, the esteemed mr. mcwhorter probably thinks that mr. coates is just another of the unfortunate and misbegotten negroes that he's had to spend his entire career trying to straighten out, while he draws his lucrative checks from his white reactionary, retrograde patrons.
that attitude comes through pretty clearly - in my humble opinion - in the bloggingheads segment.
i've already expressed my contempt for mcwhorter and everything he stands for on a previous thread so i won't waste space or my energy rehashing that stuff.
i do, however, reiterate my view that t-nc was much, much too gracious in retracting something he said about mcwhorter's work. certainly that's his own personal issue, but the nonsense that mcwhorter just spouted about him on TNR is proof enough, to me, that t-nc's initial statement had more than enough truth in it.
TNC, i think mcwhorter doesn't read you. and, i think he may not get your humor---i miss sometimes too, but it's me, not you.
okay if i post son house here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vAczJUkwU0
Coates,
McWhorter, like many Black conservatives..
HAVE LOST THEIR DAMN MINDS during this campaign.
I think McWhorter's only lost half of his. But, some of them, clearly the Obama candidacy is unspooling them. They cannot wrap their minds around the premise that Obama, who made choices OPPOSITE of theirs, is enjoying this kind of success.
"I'm not very interested in trying to show racist white people, and non-racist white people who defend them, the error of their ways. As a black person, I'm just kind of "Meh." I do it from time to time, but by in large I think we make a huge mistake when we continually view the fate of black folks through the prism of "what are white people thinking?""
Well, to be fair, it shouldn't be your job to tell us white people when we are being stupid. It should be OUR job to realize when our privilege makes us blind to other people, and actually get off our own asses and do something about it.
That's my theory anyway.
Posted by rikyrah | October 18, 2008 11:10 AM:
I think McWhorter's only lost half of his. But, some of them, clearly the Obama candidacy is unspooling them. They cannot wrap their minds around the premise that Obama, who made choices OPPOSITE of theirs, is enjoying this kind of success.
Huh ... less than three weeks to a Presidential election in the midst of a major financial market meltdown and what the Q3 stats will surely confirm to be the start of a serious GDP-recession (the employment-recession having been in place all year) ... and the most pressing topic for John McWhorter to write about is the reply to the hypothetical reaction to a hypothetical McCain victory that he presumes to be unlikely?
Does seem to be a retreat to speculative fiction when reality confronts with too much cognitive dissonance.
TNC,
Now you know why I called McWhorter a lightweight (because a certain kind of "punk" just isn't PC).
Now you're saying the same thing I did then (as garbled as it was).
People like Coates? I'm guessing he means... black people? Are you the only black dude he's ever talked to - I guess that means you represent your entire race. Heck of a responsibility, that.
I have to remember to thank Matthew Yglesias for tricking me into reading McWhorter's, uh, preemptive gobbledygook?
I admire your writing, Coates. I just thought I should say that while I'm here, since I spend most of my own time writing and reading, and not so much time commenting.
Dear Mr. Coates:
I've read your analysis of Mr. McWhorter's recent comments, as well as the comments. I daresay I can sum up my reactions by saying that Mr. McWhorter is an ass.
Not, however, a stupid one. As to why he would set up (and knock down) a hypothetical straw man argument in the hypothetical case that Senator Obama does not become our next President - I think there is a simple explanation. A perusal of any electoral map site (I favor FiveThirtyEight myself, but there are others) shows quite clearly that this line of bizarre self-serving garbage is extraordinarily unlikely to be marketable post-election - a 6.4% chance, to put some numbers to it.
So if he's going to pontificate on his preferred outcome - he best do it now. In a matter of weeks, this garbage will be completely, utterly, absolutely and wonderfully moot.
Thanks,
Matt
"So why do you think that is? I, for one, might suggest that it has something to do with the fact that that one acre of Appalachian land comes very cheaply, whereas an acre of land in a downtown part of a city costs millions. It's not like the redneck is so much wealthier than the equivalent black person; it's more that property is way cheaper in the country." - Asher
Racism, terrorism, and discrimination in the rural areas lead blacks to the cities in the first place. Redlining - state sponsored an private - distorted the land values in ghettos. Zoning laws and a willingness to lend to lower income whites - see GI Bill - allowed lower income whites to get 30-year mortgages.