Conclusion: I can't tell you who won. I thought, though, as the debate wore on Biden really put on the pressure. They seemed even early, I guess with an edge to Palin. But you can't keep repeating the same talking points.
10:32 Final statement--edge Biden.
10:24 "Maverick he is not..." again, very good.
10:20 OK, now Biden is killing. He's talking about himself. That was fucking great. He's a great foil. All she can do is counter with generalist blather. "Take on my own party," "Both sides of the aisle," "Maverick position that he's in."
10:19 LOL!!! She didn't even answer the Achilles Heel question. Was that even an attempt at an answer?
10:17 Very, very very good answer on Cheney--by Biden.
10:16 That was barely an answer on the VP. She doesn't seem to understand the argument. She's just agreeing with Cheney because he's a Republican.
10:10 I think the whole "government get out our way" line is dead these days. It just doesn't seem like the best line in these times.
10:04 This is interesting. She is running out of ammo. It's like watching a fighter punch himself out. She doesn't really have another line of attack besides Biden agreeing with McCain on certain foreign policy questions. Maybe that's the point. But this "you agree with me" strat didn't work well last week.
9:55 Fallows says:
The loser 38 minutes in is Gwen Ifill, who is doing nothing at all to keep the discussion on track or having the candidates engage.Man, was I wrong?
The circumstances don't allow her to do anything close to what Katie Couric achieved, but she seems not even to be listening to the answers when moving to her next question.
9:49 I'm finding this really hard to gauge. She's basically bullshitting her way through much of this. I think it all depends how effective the deception is.
9:44 Her attacks are so passive-aggressive....
9:38 Ugh. That "no supporting gay marriage" answer makes my ears hurt. Ouch.
9:35 Is she answering Gwen's questions? It may not matter. I don't know.
9:31 Bad on climate-change. Not just that she doesn't agree with us lefties. She doesn't sound convincing on the whole "not arguing about the causes" thing.
9:21 "The ultimate bridge to nowhere." Cute line from Biden.
9:13 It's the "gosh darnit" thing. Again, maybe that works for some people. I don't know.
9:10 Smart nod to predatory lending by Palin and living within our means. Really smart not to blame the American people. There's something about her that lacks gravitas. It's really weird. But, meh, I'm not an undecided voter.
9:06 Good first answer for both. She seems fine.
The Beautiful Struggle: A Father, Two Sons, and an Unlikely Road to Manhood 
If anyone is going to be upset with Gwen, they should be upset by that green grandmarm coat!!
Already?
My parents are here and listening to a political debate together is really not something we should do, so I'll be lurking about online...
Her gosh-gee-williker style just does not work for me.
She really suffered with follow-ups from Couric, and the debate format doesn't really allow them. If she holds it together I expect she'll do okay.
It's like the difference between:
TNC: D, what did you think of Dallas on Sunday?
D: I thought the way they ran that first down on 10 and aught was really reflective of Brady's influence.
and:
TNC: D, what did you think of Dallas on Sunday?
D: I thought the way they ran that first down on 10 and aught was really reflective of Brady's influence.
TNC: No part of that made any sense. What are you talking about?
D: There is much football, even in Massachusetts, and even here, we are aware of the traditions of it.
It's amazing how well Palin is dodging. She is picking and choosing her topics. It's clear she has studied her talking points and is trying desperately to stick to them. It will be interesting to see how much she recycles and repeats.
Biden just had a flash back to the democratic primaries, ha ha
I'm watching on CNN cause I love the reaction lines from their group. The women, so far, really respond positively to Biden.
Shooter, she's not going to answer the questions you and the moderator may want. You know, with answers.
Just a quick question for anyone who may know the answer.
Why did the Democrats agree to the debate format that plays to Governor Palin's strengths? Maybe I am wrong, but I thought both parties agreed on a format, then the Republicans whined and got the current format because they did not want Palin to speak very much. Did the Republicans make any concessions to the Democrats? I mean, this just allows her to tell lies in a folksy way.
Sullivan noted that Palin's folksy anecdotes work, I think they may have worked a little for the first 15 minutes but for 90 minutes?
I don't think this format is really helping her. Biden is answering in a strong measured format. With here refusing to answer questions, I think it makes her look one dimensional and dare I say, catty?
Fighting, wish I knew the answer. As I recall they just went along on a sort of "sure, we'll help her out and she'll still lose" show of confidence.
Ignoring the question to get out your talking point drives me insane from all levels of politicians, but do regular voters now respond like me, or do they nod and say "nice anecdote there"?
She keeps beginning her answers with complete nonsequitirs. Biden talks about McCain's record of deregulation, and in her response Palin begins "Well I'm glad you brought up taxes". Even my ten year old daughter blurted out "What? He wasn't talking about taxes!". Later, Biden does talk about taxes, and eliminating tax cuts for the wealthy, and Palin starts her answer with a reference to "talking about folks one way to their face and another behind their backs" (paraphrasing here). Where'd that come from?! She's definitely trying to find a way to work in all the key talking points and zingers they must have rehearsed, but she's doing it in a terribly jarring way, completely unrelated to the topics under discussion.
She's definitely doing much better than she did in her interviews, but still cringe-worthy for me. I have to keep leaving the room, it's painful to watch at times!
Did notice too that her voice started out quite shaky, but she seems to be finding a more even keel now.
Interesting so far. Very impressed with Joe, he's striking just the right tone.
My brain hurts. I can't follow either one of them. I think her rambling is throwing Joe off. He doesn't know where to start; and he doesn't seem comfortable. She's starting to talk in circles more and more...
I can't follow this debate. They are jumping from topic to topic. Makes no sense.
I imagine the republicans will rejoice that this is Sarah being Sarah, but this is just as pathetic as her showing with Couric and Gibson. She seems no less empty headed, it's just that in this format, she can express her utter vapidity through nonsensical folksy anecdotes.
Seriously Gwen, ask her how old this planet is.
What the hell is she saying??? I would beat my children if they rambled like her. Literally, I would pull my belt off and chase them around the house and they would be crying, "no daddy, daddy . . I'll be more coherent. I promise."
Come on and post! This is live blogging not dead blogging, right?
Okay i am siting here with my head cocked to the side like a confused puppy everytime she speaks. Does no one expect their leaders to make sense? Since when is it okay to come to a debate and state you wont answer the questions? Her reciting of rehearsed lines that are not coinciding with the questions asked is making my head hurt. At this point I think I am qualified to be the VPOTUS!
Not arguing about the causes? What, does she think that global warming is caused by polar bear farts?
Wow, on this energy question, the Uncommitted Ohio Men were flatlined on Biden at first. Then he mentioned clean coal and nuclear and it shot up.
She just said "nuc-yoo-ler"!
This is embarassing. Is it the format? Ugh. Let's move on to foreign policy....something. Help.
Wow the plan is part of the plan..
Did anyone check out the numbers in the Washington Post that showed the effectiveness of the surge was tied to payments from the US to the local insurgent groups.
This was crazy when I saw it. That's the reason that it is working!!
Did that woman just say Taliban eee??
Someone please tell me I am not in the minority and that the public at least the people still undecided are seeing past her empty shallow pushing of talking points rather then really answering the questions. This is to me probably more pathetic then the interviews since she doesnt even have to seem as if she is comprehending the questions she is just ignoring them and going down her checklist of rhetoric.
"IT's waving a white flag >:( ...Gosh darn it"
It's hard to listen her talk.
Question: Which is more dangerous: An unstable Pakistan, or a nuclear Iran?
Governor Palin: "Well, I just watched The Kingdom last night, and I found it eye-openin', I tell ya! Thank Gad there isn't a real 'Saudi Arabia.'"
"Also" is her tell. Watch for it.
Also :Biden don't talk about yourself in third person. Dole did that.
Phoenix that's exactly what I've been wondering, if people are seeing through the act. She's doing so much better than her interviews (which ain't saying much since the bar was so low!) that it makes me wonder if this performance is enough to assuage the doubts of many folks watching. A wide section of America is predisposed to like Palin for being "just plain folks", after all - this might be enough for their doubts to be overcome.
I hope not, obviously, but I have a sinking feeling that she's pulling the wool over their eyes with this.
palin charged out fairly well from a debating standpoint on the domestic issues, but has completely lost it on foreign policy...biden took a while to warm up, and i'm hoping he closes strong
when she says she respects Joe Biden, somehow it seems durty. Makes me want to take a loooonnngg shower.
On the nuclear issue, what's to say either of them are incapable of managing a nuclear program?
Ifil has been bad. She's just letting this thing meander all over the place. She ask's a question, something else get's answered, Ifil moves right along.
Gwen is terrible.
Where's Katie "follow up question "Couric when we need her?
I'm switching to the Dodgers/Cubs game.
I think the Republican faithful think she is doing ok. As long as she doesn't fall down flat, which she is not, they are going to support her. This is the same mentality that got Bush back in office.
They are seeing her from eyes that look for her promise and dismiss her shortcomings. The alternative is Obama/Biden which I think is akin to pulling your eyeballs out for a staunch Republican.
My sister has a good point re Gwen Ifill:
I think Gwen is on it. She has a harder job cause she has to control the mismatched skills and look even handed.
Um. Were you not for the Bridge, before you were against it???
Look at Biden's numbers. He is killing it!!
I think the boxing phrase fits here: styles make fights. A great fighther can look bad against a stiff. Ifill as the ref is in a tough situation, she can't only ask follow up questions to Palin when she doesn't answer the question without making it look like a tag team. The format last week helped Lehrer because he could basically make them ask each other the follow up questions.
Of course if it were a fight she would of course stop it:-)
Palin is just making mini "speeches" over and over again. And none of them are good, except her delivery is sometimes effective(?)...
I thought Biden would be much better. A lot of blunders. Is Palin's weird gesticulation and sing-songy delivery infecting him somehow? Kind of like a yawn?
Bleh! I want to go watch a movie, but will grind through the rest of it...Grrr
The "I agree with you" stuff worked very well, as we saw in the response to the debate. McCain's entire case against Obama is that he's immature and not ready to be President. Obama comes to the debate and says we agree on some things, we disagree on others, this is why, and comes across as very thoughtful, reasonable, and knowledgeable. Whereas McCain comes across as a hothead who won't even look at Obama. This completely falsified McCain's argument, which is a great part of the reason why everything is falling apart for McCain.
A team of mavericks. A TEAM of MAVERICKS. Is that actually going to work for anyone?
Again, there is something icky about her compliments!
Re Ifil: If you concede that she can't ask follow up questions, which I don't necessarily, several times Biden and Palin both have essentially said can I change the subject?, and not once has Ifil said "nah answer the question."
Edge Palin.
She's a sharp cookie, and Biden has limited punching room because he and Obama don't disagree with the establishment on the major issues.
Palin is Ned Flanders.
I really don't understand how anybody could find the "dosh darn it, you betcha! wink wink!" schtik anything but grating.
"a bit more authority for the vice president"
terrifying words...
VP - Executive vs. Legislative Role:
Tap into that flexibility???
Holy SH*!
Wow. Palin and McCain have not discussed her role should he win. This ticket so obviously has no real interest in governing.
ouch, Biden went mad dog on the veep question.
Isn't Ifill limited by the pre-negotiated terms of the debate?
Yikes the rips are getting deeper...the VP question (about the position for which they are running) was bad. Biden destroyed her on Cheney.
MY CONNECTION THE HEARTLAND OF AMERICA
Barf.
Watson, define sharp. I think she might be exceeding people's expectations because, for instance, she knows that Afghanistan exists. But what you view as sharp, I view as gibbering verbal dyspepsia. Mindless and platitudinal. Do you think she has shown any understanding of any policy or issue? When she's not lying about them?
Looks like the personal story backfired on Palin.
There was no pundit commentary or predictions about the possibility that Biden would choke up.
One of the more striking moments of the debate.
not being able to answer questions directly is her Achilles heel.
Biden is making me proud. The Cheney takedown will be legend.
Maverick. Maverick maverick maverick. Consumate maverick. Maverick position. Team of mavericks.
It's like watching an episode of the smurfs.
"Gee Papa Maverick, that's such a mavericky thing to say! I hope Maverickette escapes from Gargumel
1'
I predicted that she'd run out of steam around the hour mark, when she had cycled through her talking points and run out of anecdotes. She doesn't have the well of knowledge or experience to draw upon when she's out of the shallow end.
And much like the Dallas Mavericks, Palin looks like a loser tonight.
Biden talks about nearly losing his children (along with his wife)... and nearly loses his self control.
She procedes to launch off on her talking points -- one of the most tricky political moments of the debate, but it highlighted her pre-programming and lack of empathy.
Damn. Maybe it's the northeastern liberal elite in me, but if I have to listen to this woman's nasal, Fargoesque accent for four years, I'm gonna end up sticking forks in my ears.
On a more serious, and unfortunate note, I agree with Watson. Edge goes to Palin. She didn't hyperventilate, cry, or otherwise break down, so it's a win for her. The bar was so damn low to begin with.
My husband the politically-apathetic Buddhist just looked up from his coding to ask, "Does she get paid every time she says 'maverick'?"
Too many Reagan quotes from her. Shut up already.
Joe is clearly more thoughtful, more experienced, more informed. On every question he was able to answer comfortably, without hesitation, and in DETAIL. Unfortunately this won't matter to most people. I hope I'm wrong about that, but I fear I'm not.
Man, I almost cried when Joe Biden started talking about his late wife and daughter and his two sons who barely survived a car accident. I could barely tolerate listening to her afterward.
This thing is done. What an incredible embarrassment for John McCain.
KCN nailed it, this debate should be remembered for the Cheney take down, that's what I want to see again, and again.
Watson, define sharp
I mean that she’s media-facile, which is a formidable asset in an election that may be decided by ‘low-information voters’. (But I missed the last 25 minutes, and I'm not suggesting that she's other than a monster.)
I'm with Anne, that accent grates on me as does the chirpy gosh darn-ness.
Anyone else think Buchnan knew exactly what he was going to say before the debate even started?
"Media facile" is an interesting term, and I think it could fit her - but Rachel Maddow just made a great point - her folksiness came off as cartoonish. If there's a parody of this debate on SNL this week, I guarantee Tina Fey again lifts a bunch of things Palin actually said.
This debate likely won back Kathleen Parker and K-Lo, but I'm not sure about much anyone else. Pat Buchanan just called her "sensational." He hasn't called anything that since "Birth of a Nation"
My three cents: from beginning to end Biden controlled (being stronger in the last 30 minutes and stronger on the most important points) ... but I realize that my total disregard for Palin's intellect and experience and ability to articultate and grating sound of her voice and eye winks makes mine not an opinion that matters. But check it out: I was waiting for Palin to cry but BIDEN NEARLY CRIED! It was sincere with the added benefit of being brilliant!
The focus-group type crowd that Fox News (sorry, I know, but its the only news channel we got on our cheapo Dish package!) has fallen for Palin's performance. Apparently they were evenly divided before the debat (and an even cross-section of Bush and Kerry voters in the last election, according to the host), but now most think she won. Surveying the audience, they're saying that she hit the ball out of the park, did what she needed to do, sounded knowledgable, inspired them, "spoke to the people" (see, it's that "just folks" thing). Ugh.
Another random observation from my husband: the Fox commentators sound, when talking about Palin, like some white folks sound when they talk about black folks: "she was so articulate! So well-spoken!" The same condescension from these right-wing white guys towards her that they have towards blacks. They expect so little of blacks, and I guess of women, that they're blown away that we can speak in complete sentences.
I'm not bitter or anything, though. Not me. ;)
72 comments and NO ONE mentioned the Rakim reference?!
I guess you need to give us some time to get the last one straight.
I didn't see the debate -- I prefer the Dodgers.
I think it's almost impossible for anyone to fully absorb the enormous gaffes while they were concentrating on her delivery. Unfortunately, the lines that seemed to punch were good lines.
BUT--some of her gaffes were so amazing that surely there will be follow-up in upcoming news cycles. Will she clarify? My bet is...only through press releases. We won't be seeing or hearing from Sarah Palin anymore unless she's on stage delivering a scripted stump speech.
For the 60% of people who thought she was unqualified, what % will change their minds? I don't know. But I'm pretty sure that independent women will be put-off by her performance tonight, once it sinks in.
I think Biden did a better job, but the expectation from both conservatives and liberals was that she might completely bomb, so in the end, the result is better for McCain. I think that because they both did fine, people will forget about the VP debate, and move on to other things, which was the best the McCain team could hope for, considering how a performance similar to the one with Couric could have been a deal-breaker for people.
A potential football analogy, if you will: McCain-Palin are down by 5 with a minute left in the game. They're facing 3rd and 10 from their own 20. People were talking about how Biden (a big safety) could either record a big sack (at which point the game's pretty much over) or be hit with an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty, resulting in a fresh set of downs for the Republicans. What actually happens in the Republicans run it up the gut for a few yards. It's 4th and 6, and long odds just got longer, but a comeback is not impossible per se.
I think Ifill did an excellent job, although I still feel it's improper for someone to moderate the debate whose book sales would go up if the candidate she wrote about wins. Not ideological conflict of interest, but a financial one. That being said, she did a great job. Conflict of interest just means that there could be a motivation for bias, but necessarily that someone will act on that motive.
This is probably the unpopular stance here, but I thought Palin did great and I'm glad she did.
I want an Obama/Biden presidency and I really want to see them get it because America believes they have the right choices, the right principals and the right vision for America. I was also very happy to see Palin challenging Biden on some issues and on his past record. It gave Joe a more even playing field to do the same and I think a healthy debate is good for our country and for ourselves. No one is served by being hobbled over false outrage or accusations of sexism, bullying or contemptuousness. I was also very relieved to see that Palin was using genuine points on policy and voting records to attack and not just being snarky or mean like she was at the RNC. Seeing the two of them up there gave me hope that even though there we have differences in our views, we can still have civility in our civil discourse.
And Joe was fantastic! He deftly defended his record, he promoted Obama and he challenged Palin without being condescending or inserting foot firmly in mouth. He actually came across as being very engaged in the conversation (as did she) and I found myself really wishing that each side had trusted their running mates enough to negotiate a more free-flowing debate style. I loved watching the exchanges between them which is far more than we got with the debate between McCain and Obama.
I want to see Obama win. I want to see an Obama/Biden presidency. But I don't want them to win because the McCain ticket is crippled, I want them to win because people see that Obama has a destination and a strategy on how to get there. Sarah Palin made her points well, and she probably connected with a lot of people. They'll probably get a boost out of this. Don't worry about that too much. Obama still has two debates with McCain and unless Walnuts starts taking some serious lessons from Caribou Barbie, he's still very likely to come across as the grumpy old man with the reckless tacctics we've come to know and be afraid of.
wow, ifill was nowhere. she caved on the palin response to one of the early questions: 'i don't have to answer the moderator's questions if i don't want to.'
the guv told ifill and anyone he was listening, 'well, fuck you and the debate deal, i'll make my own rules, i'll be an expansive veep like cheney, my state is energy producing, doggone, gosh joe you asshole, i'm getting away with this bullshit. i don't have to answer doo-doo. so there and god bless ya.'
if i were ifill, i'd change my name to awfull. there basically was no moderator. ifill should have told her that you are supposed to at least try to answer questions, not just announce you are blowing off whatever is asked. the moderator should have said 'no, you've got to at least try and answer the questions.' and if the wound up manic chatter-head said, "doggone gwen, god bless ya, but i'm going to speak directly to the american people without a media filter," gwen should have walked out and had an audience member ask the questions.
she's as dumb as dirt with a loop in her head implanted by the dick of death and his minions. maybe if they cut her meth intake in half it would have helped. nah.
to be fair, and i'm always fair, i had no idea what the question she was answering about 45 seconds after her mouth started tapping like a dog that's been tied up too long on a short leash.
she makes qualye look like a genius, and bush like a professor emeritus.
marc adin- There are different philosophies about the proper role of a moderator. Some believe that they should have lots of "intervention," in terms of calling on people when they insufficiently answer questions or have any contradictions or make a factual error. Others believe that moderators are there to ask good, fair, questions and to mind the clock, allowing the viewers to be make their own decisions about who dodged questions, made unfair statements, etc. etc. If everyone notices that Palin dissed the moderator, then she did so at her own peril and Ifill doesn't have to yell at her about it in the middle of the debate.
Follow the leader.
Pat Buchanan just called her "sensational." He hasn't called anything that since "Birth of a Nation"
Now be fair: he had a lot of good things to say about "Triumph of the Will".
Interestingly, Palin switched from saying "nuke-u-lar" to the correct pronunciation of "nuclear" midway through the debate. Maybe I just imagined that. I always expected it to happen to W.
"I'm with Anne, that accent grates on me as does the chirpy gosh darn-ness."
Whether she's good or bad this is a really petty complaint. People's accents or avoidance of curse words doesn't say whether they're bright or good at governance. Otherwise Mormons and Minnesotans could never run for high office and that's just silly.
Complaints about non-sequitirs, deflecting questions, and saying too many stock phrases are fair though.
adina,
adina,
very intriguing name, btw. palin announced at the very beginning of the debate that she was going to even try to answer the moderator's questions.
you wrote: "There are different philosophies about the proper role of a moderator." but there is no debate format where one 'debater' announces she'll only answers the questions she wants to answer, regardless of the moderator's questions. if ifill acquiesced to that notion, then the very least she could have done is tell biden 'you don't have to answer any question you don't want to.' she didn't and the meth addled chatter head prattled on in her unique dumbo way.
ridiculous.
Doggone it, that performance by Palin was atrocious.
Biden was the clear winner.
Carrington Ward,
Yeah, that was a touching moment by Joe Biden.
And all she could do was say "maverick" afterwards. Pretty emotionally tone deaf.
I know why - the preprogramming, she couldn't go off message - but any "normal" person would have had a moment of sympathy.
She did good but Biden was clearly more knowledgeable. I don't understand why the abortion issue wasn't raised. I mean, considering that gender and women's issues have been a major factor in this election.
Y'know how Kirby, if he swallaws a big gulp of hot air, is able to float effortlessly, untouchable by his erstwhile foes?
By contrast, y'know how when Kirby swallows anything more substantial, he plummets to the ground, at the mercy of the loveably rendered yet utterly merciless hordes?
Such is the way Palin has operated in this campaign.
She is Kirby. Kirby is she. I guess Kathleen Parker is King Dedede, apparent foe (Palin != qualified) with a heroic denouement (that debate proved me wrong! golly!).
McCain is that goddamn enemy that puts Kirby to sleep upon ingestion. Mavericks need naps too!
Coincidentally, Kirby's rescue of Dream Land probably serves as a good corollary of Palin's eschatalogical views as well.
Remember a couple days ago when you had a post about Palin and Sexism? And the first comment by commenter John Scott had nothing to do with the post but instead pushed the Republican issue about Ifill as conflict of interest? And then people were like, dude quit trolling, if you have nothing to say about the post thread then say nothing, don't just write about a different topic?
Tonight Sarah Palin did the same thing:
"And I may not answer the questions that either the moderator or you want to hear, but I'm going to talk straight to the American people and let them know my track record also."
She ignored the actual conversation that was being prompted and just did her own thing. Pretty bad when the VP candidate communication skills are at a level reminiscent of those chastised for poor blog etiquette.
I liked Biden's last 2/3 of the debate. I am more impressed by him than I was yesterday and think higher of Obama's judgment as a result.
I noticed something particularly alarming in Palin's rhetoric. About climate change, Palin said we don't need to understand the cause to move forward. She also kept chiding Biden for "going back to Bush". These ideas are intimately related. They are indicative of the way that Palin thinks: "Don't worry about yesterday! Look over here! Shiny object! Pretty, pretty, sparkly thing! You want the sparkly, doncha? Yes, you do! Yes, you do!"
How do you fix a problem without understanding its cause? How do you move forward from disaster without holding accountable the people who created the disaster?
Also, did anybody catch the bit about putting an American embassy in Jerusalem? Does this idea disturb anyone except me?
The upside to "low information voters" is that they may well not have seen the Couric or Gibson interview, just heard some buzz about the debate being make-or break for Palin.
Pretty bad when the VP candidate communication skills are at a level reminiscent of those chastised for poor blog etiquette.
That was my impression quite some time ago. I reflected on something she said and immediately thought of the inept-a-ton screaming "appeasement" on Hardball.
The warning I could see written on the wall was how a generation of ditto-heads are about to rise to prominence and all that went through my head was: be afraid, be very afraid.
"I'm with Anne, that accent grates on me as does the chirpy gosh darn-ness."
Whether she's good or bad this is a really petty complaint. People's accents or avoidance of curse words doesn't say whether they're bright or good at governance. Otherwise Mormons and Minnesotans could never run for high office and that's just silly.
Complaints about non-sequitirs, deflecting questions, and saying too many stock phrases are fair though.
----
Oh, I don't like anything about her policies or inch-deep knowledge of ANYTHING outside of Alaska, but after 90 minutes of listening to that, I'm sorry if I offended your sensibilities by being petty. Yep, it was petty, but also remember that she was a professional sportscaster. Know any TV professionals who retain an accent like that? I think she lays it on a little thick. It's part of the schtick and the package.
Was every "journalist" at the Atlantic sharing the same bong during last night's debate? What debate were you all watching? She managed not to stand there drooling on herself and this is good enough? Good enough after 8 years of a "folksy" but thoroughly incompetent president? She gave the same answers that a well-liked jock gives during a final exam for which he never cracked the spine of his text book.
It's a damn shame that after eight years of two failed wars and a failed economic policy that the media still has no shame. They lowered the bar for an idiot babbling cowboy and now they are willing to bury it for an idiot babbling beauty queen moose hunter. How about performing to the level that the office demands?
Your analysis is as intellectually lazy as Sarah Palin is generally.
spot on Ta-Nehisi!
Bravo!
Republicans gave Palin rave reviews….home-run, the palin show, etc.
Palin’s tribe was absolutely wow’d.
But only her tribe.
This is reflected in the polls.
mediacurves
If you watch the viddie of the Lundt focus group, which is an outlier compared to the nat’l polls showing that pretty uniformly show Biden won, the visual demonstrates that those people moved by Palin are in Palin’s tribe also.
Yeoman farmers, middle-aged, middle-class, middle-waged, middle of the bellcurve. They loved her.
Now I am not in Palin’s tribe, although I am a Coloradoan and a hereditary republican. It was obvious to me that the only thing preventing a series of Couric moments was that Ifil could never ask the Second Question, due to the pre-agreed debate format. That is what killed Palin in the Couric interviews, the Second Question. Palin has enough canned material for one question, and for the follow on she just repeats, like a buzzword tapeloop.
Palin’s tribe finds her accent charming and down to earth— I thought it was more grating than a Mylie Cyrus guest appearance at a Jabberwockeez street battle. I also thought i might hurl if i heard the M word one more time….(maverick or mavericks).
Palin made a gaffe when she called Main Street a toxic mess…i think she meant Wall Street, but her tribe never heard it.
Several times she was unable or unwilling to answer the question, so simply read a bunch of buzzwords off her cue cards….for example….the Achilles heel question.
I think she just read the closest fit answer.
Her sentence structure and grammer is larded with filler, and she uses VSO constructs sometimes in order to slow her speech to approximate her thoughts. Pageant speech mannerisms I suspect.
But Palin’s experience, appearance, speech is all about appealing to her tribe.
I do not think the appeal extends to extra-tribal voters, so I dont expect any big swings in the electoral college.
I’ll answer the Achilles Heel question for Palin….I wonder if Palin has enough introspection or self-examination to see this.
She seems wierdly lacking in intellectual curiousity, almost impoverished.
But Palin’s Achilles Heel is the Second Question.
This has been the same Palin all along.
For something slightly different, I'm passing on an opinion from someone totally new to the process (my 16 year old daughter), since everyone here gives every aspect of being well versed and thoughtful (congrats), "She's annoying me!"
haha
Palin, at most, avoided looking like a total jackass. Folksy is fine if someone knows what they're talking about. Had Biden given a shout-out to his wife's students, it would have been a cute diversion by an otherwise serious, substantive guy. Palin seemed like she was running down the clock.
Nor was Palin repeating unassailable talking points. Even her BS doesn't make much sense - e.g. when she repeatedly says "we're gonna get ridda greed on wall street!" and "we want government outta our lives!". Ummm, does she get that govt regulation is how you combat wall st greed?
"Know any TV professionals who retain an accent like that?"
You don't watch local TV anywhere I take it.
Reading Andrew's summary of the right's spin, they seem to be giving her an A+ based on folksiness and, critically, not embarrassing them so much that they are today forced to call for her withdrawal from the ticket. I get the relief. She may scratch her way back up to the usual veep-not-mattering level by November.
But for those concerned that she had absolutely no depth on the issues--and post-Couric that's a lot of undecided voters--there was a recitation of talking points, sometimes unrelated to the question. Not convincing. If you were almost on-board and looking for an excuse, maybe the folksiness was enough. But I think that's a small segment of the electorate.
I'm hearing and reading a lot of post-debate hashing about Palin, but not much on Biden. When thinking about the debate from a historical perspective, and a cultural one, there was one moment that I found extremely significant. Biden:
"Look, I understand what it's like to be a single parent. When my wife and daughter died and my two sons were gravely injured, I understand what it's like as a parent to wonder what it's like if your kid's going to make it. [...] But the notion that somehow, because I'm a man, I don't know what it's like to raise two kids alone, I don't know what it's like to have a child you're not sure is going to -- is going to make it -- I understand."
Can you recall a national figure---a man---talking about his role as a father-as-a-single-parent in such raw terms? Talking about his children, and his loss, in such a "maternal" way? And doing it all while standing next to the poster Mom Of The Year?
I typically don't like it when politicians get too personal, it makes me uncomfortable. I don't like having my heart strings pulled when talking serious business and making serious decisions. But when my adversaries get personal---when they use their personal story to gain moral high ground in an argument---I have a visceral reaction to counter with my own perceptions of morality, based on my own experiences. I think this is what Biden was doing here.
Sarah Palin claimed the moral high ground by advertising her choice to have a baby with Down's Syndrome. Well, she's not the only person in the world who has had to make tough decisions as a parent. She doesn't deserve an award. Just like the rest us.
Thomas R.,
No, I guess when I worked in local TV news I didn't watch it. When I was a Broadcast Journalism major, we took speech classes to smooth out accents. And trust me, I hail from an area with strong, strong accents. I guess standards have changed.
Look, my poorly made and peevish comment boils down to my belief that the advice given to Palin by the campaign -- since they know that they cannot turn her into a knowledgable candidate -- was to play up the "folksy". Lay it on thick to distract from lack of any real depth. An accent is fine. An accent with all those "you betchas" and "golly-gees" is cynical. Have you ever heard a southern lawyer appeal to local jury by laying on his accent real, real thick and how he's just a simple country boy and that real confusin' legal language used by them big city boys just gets in the way of real common sense, eh? That's what I saw last night. And, yeah, it annoyed me. Just my opinion, though.
It’s glaringly obvious that you white flag-waving surrendering defeatists were put off by the genuine embodiment of down-to-earth American values, Sarah Palin, which is why, in your flailing panic, you’re all desperate to find any faults with her winning performance in the VP debate.
Furthermore, what makes your unpatriotic bias so clear is how you’re willing to give a pass to that staggering fraud with the Cheshire cat grin, Joe Beltway Insider Biden.
Sarah Palin and John McCain represent the values and reform that real Americans have been eager for, whereas your cheering for the Traitor Team, Nobama and Lyin’ Biden is exactly what will drive our nation’s patriots to the polls in record numbers this November 4th and overwhelmingly vote for the winning leaders that truly represent Country First.
My fave groaner had to be 'what do ya expect from a couple of mavericks?' So all those who deride Obama as 'unknown' don't realize their candidate(s) of choice view that trait as a feature, not a bug? Inane.
Lab2112,
Are you a parody post? It's hard to tell.
Very funny either way though.
Lab2112: 1/10, /b/rother.
Get back in their and practice, grasshopper.
I always come away from VP debates with the same thought: What the hell is the point?. I would rather have an extra debate with the Presidential candidates than watch two apple-polishers.
It is like the cliche about stock car racing, some people just watch hoping for the crashes so it seems like these things are about the candidates not screwing up rather than doing anything of any import.
I finally found the transcript. I think this exchange is really outstanding:
IFILL: Governor, you mentioned a moment ago the constitution might give the vice president more power than it has in the past. Do you believe as Vice President Cheney does, that the Executive Branch does not hold complete sway over the office of the vice presidency, that it it is also a member of the Legislative Branch?
PALIN: Well, our founding fathers were very wise there in allowing through the Constitution much flexibility there in the office of the vice president. And we will do what is best for the American people in tapping into that position and ushering in an agenda that is supportive and cooperative with the president's agenda in that position. Yeah, so I do agree with him that we have a lot of flexibility in there, and we'll do what we have to do to administer very appropriately the plans that are needed for this nation.
Is this what her advisors wanted her to say? If so, I don't see how this helps the McCain campaign separate itself from Bush/Cheney, which is what they need to be doing. Will they clarify???
real confusin' legal language used by them big city boys just gets in the way of real common sense, eh?
Like when Biden clearly explained that he voted for war authorization because he trusted Bush that it was needed to keep the pressure up on Saddam. Palin then says "I don't know much about how it works in Washington, but it sounds like you were for it before you were against it"
This happened multiple times with Biden talking about how votes happened in the Senate and Palin saying "Well, I just don't understand how that works, I'm just a normal person"
In a match-up of The Eastern Elites versus The Fallac(y) Mavericks ... Eastern Elites dominated in the paint, grabbed boards and ran with 'em. I think the proscribed BS of Palin has finally hit the fan.
Read the breakdown here:
http://newsone.blackplanet.com/elections/just-the-facts-biden-holds-court-in-vp-debate-win/
I expected Ifill to do a poor job, but not this bad. If she'd taken an active interest in her responsibility as a moderator she could've gotten some good, substantive answers from both candidates. As it was, she just read the questions, one after another. Anybody could've done as shitty a job as she did. Ifill wasn't up to the task.
marc adin was right.
ifill was terrible. one of the worst jobs of moderating a debate i've ever seen.
and, imho, it was a direct result of the pressure republicans put on her, before the debate.
that was the real goal of their pre-debate comments about her supposed conflict.
the republican's pressure tactics worked.
they didn't really want her to be replaced; they just wanted to constrain her from asking the follow-up questions they knew would reveal palin as the empty-headed, talking-points reciting dunderhead she is.
she is a trained seal.
what she's been trained to do might look impressive, but if you asked her to respond to something she hadn't been trained to do, she's clueless.
"No, I guess when I worked in local TV news I didn't watch it. When I was a Broadcast Journalism major, we took speech classes to smooth out accents." Tinare
Shrug, in some markets they go that way and in some markets they don't.
She may have added too many "gosh" or whatevers, but otherwise that is her accent. Either that or she's done an amazing job of faking that accent for the last whatever years in the hopes she'd become VP and need to look folksy.
I think it was a silly objection, but whatever.
It's not all surprising that most of you America-hating leftists keep harping on Sarah Palin's accent or endearing platitudes. She's an authentic American who was raised on small town values, and that just drives you traitorous liberals insane with rage.
Had Sarah Palin waxed enthusiastic about sharing a bong with the Iranian president, Armani Dinner Jacket, you would have clapped your hands raw with simian glee at the very idea. However, since she chooses to stand firm against Iran and it's nuclear ambitions, Palin can only incur your condescension and undying hatred. How typical.
Country First.
Seems folks should lay off Ifill. She wasn't the worst I've ever seen. (think Gibson and Stephanopoulos on ABC in the democratic primiary this year) The rules bound her to no follow up. And she had to admonish both candidates for not answering questions. She did all she could with what she had, methinks.
Of mrs. palin's performance- her folksiness did not warm my heart strings or charm me to bits. It was and is flat out silly. The winking was strange. How the hell can we ever take her seriously when she is complicit in making her own caricuture even more over the top than Tina Fey's wildest interpretations. And that is just style...
Substance is another matter, one that appears to be lost of the JMac camp.
Oh and Biden was at his best last night, especcially down the back stretch. Quite a contrast in stature, gravitas, and intellect from his cute little counter-part.
Lab2112,
The irony in your post is that in an attempt to excoriate "liberals" for their condescending response you make the same mistake in the defense of Palin. To assert that she is an "authentic" american is factually incorrect. I first ask what metric are you using to make such a statement? Who's definition of authentic are we going by? Im sure the liberals can equally say Obama is authentic america. (If im correct are we not extremely close to being a majority-minority country?) The majority of american, north, south, east, west have do not share Gov. Palin's views (many of which are just too extreme). A "gosh darn it" here and "gee golly" there would makes her no more authentic than a new yorkers use of "you'know mean" or bostonians pronuciation of chowder.
Also, I understand there is a ton of electioneering going on by both sides, but to make this into a cultural war (which seems to be the strategy of the conservatives, "those eastern liberals do not get it", ) goes on to debunk your slogan and belief of COUNTRY FIRST. Why would someone want to split the electorate/nation and crystalize polarizations (aside for political gain) if it truly has a belief of putting country first? It leads me to believe that in that statement it is implict what you mean by country. You support putting a certain segment first, the "real americans" that Palin ostensibly represents. (I guess at the end of the day all politics are really tribal.)
In fairness and respect to this forum it would behoove you to put some meat on your argument. As it stands right now all that you've presented is ad hominem blabber.
Peace,
TNC, Nice reference to Rakim.
Mia Nutick did a great essay on how the "Joe Six-pack" appeal is backfiring and why: http://www.canow.org/canoworg/2008/10/hey-there-joe-s.html
ta-nehisi......i just had the most horrific thought ever.
what if...Palin didnt answer the Achilles Heel question because she doesn't know what an Achilles is!!!!!!!
Thomas R,
I don't know if someone addressed this point earlier in the thread, but Palin's accent, and folksy demeanor, are fake. If you look back at the 2006 Alaska gubernatorial debates, she doesn't use all the "you betchas" and "doggone its." And a lot of Alaskan bloggers and posters, several of whom live in the Mat-su Valley in Alaska, have commented on how they have never met anyone in Alaska who talks or sounds like she does.