After reading some comments, I went back and looked at that line about Wynton Marsalis. Blogging is one of those things where you really often respond emotionally, and sometimes, I find myself writing things (usually out of anger) that should be retracted. But I meant that line about Wynton. For better or worse, I'm a hip-hop patriot. I know only a little about what he's done for jazz, and so on that, I have no comment. But in terms of hip-hop, his flagrant ignorance was always distasteful to me.
It always amazed me that a guy could watch a few videos of 50 or Luda and then hold forth on hip-hop and be taken seriously. I'd love to see the response if I copped, say, Miles's Bitches Brew and then went on to talk about how much jazz sucked. I hope I'd be shouted down. But fair is fair, no? Ignorance in a three-piece suit is as bad as ignorance in a track-suit. And now some words from my youth.
The Beautiful Struggle: A Father, Two Sons, and an Unlikely Road to Manhood 
Copyright © 2009 by The Atlantic Monthly Group. All rights reserved.
Wait, are you talking shit about Bitches Brew now? That will not stand, sir!
Nope, I'm actually a fan. Great album to write to--that and Sketches Of Spain. But that don't give me the right hold forth on the history and merit of jazz...
Most likely Wynton's problem is that he met Stanley Crouch (who wrote the liner notes for Marsalis's first recordings) at an impressionable age. Not only do the stupid things that Marsalis says have Crouch's fingerprints all over him, Crouch's worldview probably stunted Marsalis' growth as an artist as well.
Or maybe not; maybe Marsalis was never going to be anything greater than a solid post-bop trumpeter a la Woody Shaw or Terence Blanchard, and this Crouch-esque patter is what created all the buzz that distinguished him from the rest of the pack.
Wynton is a know-nothing, and no one will remember any of his music fifty years from now. Hell, no one remembers his music now.
Ta-Nehisi,
Sorry, I was joking. I thought my sarcasm was oozing through on that first comment.
But Miles Davis is an interesting example for illustrating why Marsalis's attitude is bad for jazz. Wynton's jazz fascism looks particularly petty and defeating when you compare his catalog and influence to that of Miles.
With Miles you have a guy who changed the face of jazz five times. He was always adapting to what the new kids were bringing to the table, always kept his ears open, and never talked shit about jazz purity tests. In my opinion, his adaptability and open mind made him one of the 20th century's greatest musicians.
I'll make myself clearer. Anyone who would invoke Wynton Marsalis, in some slippery analogy, has their head so far up their ass it's embarrasing. A lot of things can be said about Marsalis - he's not one of the giant of jazz by any means - but there is NO sense in which he disposes himself in the field he has chosen the way Palin disposes herself in hers.
This is childish bullshit and pretty much cements my opinion of just how low rap has dragged younger folks' taste and standards.
"Hip Hop Patriot" - and you sound like John McCain when confronted with complexity. As far as I'm concerned, most of what's "new" about contemporary "rap" is the bastard child of disco production. Even Dylan "rapped" circles around most of the morons who are currently getting paid in "Subterranean Homesick Blues." There's not a hell of a lot that's new or inventive about this genre - other than being able to cobble shit together in the studio which levels the playing field to include anybody with too much time on their hands. Claiming "rap is the new jazz" is absurd - the performance bar - and the "public behavior" - bar has been lowered precipitously with damned little to show for it that will last. In the wake of rap, African-American culture is less of a treasure than it was in previous generations - and, yes, a lot of this crap is totally embarrassing. Deal with the paucity and lay off of Wynton Marsalis when you're making excuses for the prevalence of horseshit. Also, that video sucks...
CORRECTION: "Anyone who would invoke Wynton Marsalis, in some slippery analogy TO SARAH PALIN, has their head so far up their ass it's embarrasing."
Hey, being a "solid post-bop trumpeter a la Woody Shaw or Terence Blanchard" is still pretty good.
Also, on a personal note, I've worked with Wynton a couple of times (as an audio tech) and he's a really nice guy in a professional setting - as opposed to an awful lot of professional musicians (other notable exceptions: Sonny Rollins, Bobby McFerrin (sweetheart!), the Doobie Brothers).
For what that's worth.
@1:15 - When did Grant Hill start slingin hooch?
Actually, kth, via Crouch Marsalis met Ralph Ellison and Albert Murray. But judging from your comments and dhwhite's, I'm getting into territory that's probably over your head.
I am NOT, incidentally, someone who considers Marsalis anything more than a "good", competent improvisor at about the level you suggest. But he's done a hell of a lot for giving the classic jazz repetoire the respect, attention and audience it deserves. That Guardian article is just cheap shots - who gives a shit about Movado watches. And, while Marsalis no doubt overstates his case against hip-hop, this shit has gotten such a pass by academic pimps like Dyson that I find "Hip Hop Patriots", of all people, getting their panties twisted by some strong words by an older jazz head quite laughable. Who knew this corner of the block harbored - which pioneered pretty much saying any hyperbolic shit that strikes one's fancy, no matter how asinine, offensive or ignorant - such sensitivity ?
"This is childish bullshit and pretty much cements my opinion of just how low rap has dragged younger folks' taste and standards."
The irony here is, well, staggering. But this is beauty of the net--we all get to say what we feel.
S.G.E.W,
I make no comment on Wynton personally. I have no reason to doubt that he is really nice guy. I just think, when it comes to hip-hop, he's speaking out of ignorance.
This al reminds of the scene from "Mo Better Blues"....
"if you played the Sh%t that the people like the people will come......."
Actually, knowing what little I know about Marsalis, I wouldn't be surprised to find out he doesn't think very highly of "Bitches Brew". He and Miles were not the best of friends, and "Bitches Brew" is part of that hated fusion jazz. So yeah, if you were to rant on that album, he'd probably be right there with you.
The Marsalis analogy was completely appropriate.
The man is virtuoso and an incredibly knowledgeable curator of the Murray-Crouch jazz museum (and "All Rise" is pretty dope). But he has said a lot of dumb things about popular music. Then again, I would have too if I had been anointed the Guardian of the Jazz Tradition at age 19.
Herbie Hancock tears him up for it in a joint interview titled "Soul, Craft, and the Cultural Hierarchy" in the Keeping Time anthology
Palin is a virtuoso when she is leading her choir in a round of "Drill baby drill," but she sure as hell can't improvise.
For all the vitriol he's spewing, bruce still hasn't addressed the main point: Marsalis knows jack shit about hip hop. Listening to Marsalis pontificate on hip hop is like listening to Palin talk about the bailout package--it's occasionally entertaining, but mostly a waste of time.
And while people like bruce thinks jazz needed saving, putting it on a pedestal in a museum like Marsalis does more to turn audiences off than anything else.
hey t-nc,
if you want a miles album to accompany you while working, you cannot find a better choice than "kind of blue".
imho.
"...blue" is my favorite miles album, all of its cuts are scattered throughout my mp3 playlists, though, "miles runs the voodoo down" off of "...brew" always ranks right up there as one of my favorite tunes to relax to.
as far as marsales is concerned, i wouldn't go so far as to describe him as an overrated hack, but i wouldn't object too harshly if anyone else used those terms in relation to him.
as far as i'm concerned, you can dog him out til your heart's content.
him and his mediocre brother...
the fact that he's considered in such high regard now says a lot about the state of jazz in this country.
I "love" the use of "scare" quotes in brucds' response, as it shows how "intelligent" and "reasoned" his "opinions" are.
Even Dylan "rapped" circles around most of the morons who are currently getting paid in "Subterranean Homesick Blues."
Let's ignore the misplaced modifier here. Name five MCs, fool. Right now, off the "top" of your "dome." Don't hit google.
I love Dylan too, but to think his skillset is anywhere close to...say, Rakim's is absurd.
scythia - go "screw" yourself with your Strunk-White.
Not to be a jerk, I'll back that last statement up. Notice, for starters, the changes in tempo, and the placement of the rhyme scheme.
Also keep in mind that this is nearly 20 years old. MCs have gotten better.
Look, fools, I don't give a shit whether Marsalis knows jackshit about hip-hop. The analogy was tortured and stupid. That's "the main point." It came from left field and this entire follow-up discussion makes you guys sound like conservatives defending Palin, the special pleading and misdirection is so deep. The notion that such a crap analogy deserved a special post defending it proves what a bunch of crybaby bullshit and tender feelings lie behind it. Grow the fuck up.
As much as we can, let's avoid this getting personal. Disagreement is what it's all about. The anger isn't helping anyone. That's for us all--not just brucds.
brucds, man you sure got touched by this one. If you've never listened to Illmatic, for instance, then you simply cannot hold forth on the relative merits of jazz anad hip-hop (especially, but not solely, on a vocal level). Something tells me you've never listened to any of the vanguards of the genre. Just in case you don't know this, most of the crap rap you hear on the radio (now and always) is the equivalent of whatever novelty jazz band held the #5 spot on the charts in 1948 with "She's a Real Looker Part 2."
(And I've never really liked Stetsasonic - beats were OK, rhymes to me were always kinda lacking. But it's more old-school than modern and I started listening to hip hop in the native tongues era.)
Prince Paul!
Let me make this real simple:
Wynton Marsalis isn't asking you to vote him a Grammy in the Hip Hop genre, isn't competing with FiftyCent for Asshole of the Year or planning to take over as A&R Czar at"DopeShit" Records, or whatever. He can make hyperbolic, controversial or totally head-up-his ass statements about Hip-Hop-Who-Gives-A-Fuck all day long. It has no bearing on anything other than the tender feelings on display here by folks who apparently enjoy listening to the most vulgar, abusive crap ever dropped on disc but can't take a diss. And that's despite his "rapping" a bit on a single groove and the ahistoric notion that some punk patented "rapping" in your lifetime. In the field he's chosen, in the career he's devoted himself to, he's undeniably way above "average" and is highly regarded by many for a range of accomplishments that go beyond his modest compositional skills. I find the guy annoying at times and full of himself, and his compositions pretentious, but there's no debate about whether he's qualified to make jazz records, given what's out there, or whether he's accomplished good things for jazz via the Lincoln Center programs and his educational efforts. Only a fool would attempt to drum him out of the room and say he's the worst guy in modern history who has cut sides or assembled ensembles.
Sarah Palin is running for the number two slot in the executive branch of government. It is incumbent upon her to have some familiarity with current legislative issues, policy agendas, national security questions, judicial controversies, etc. That's part of her job description. She needs to know this shit to have any credibility in the game she's chosen to play. She is the worst person at what she's trying to pull off in modern history. Worse than Dan Quayle.
You all may be right about rap - nobody really cares. But the Marsalis analogy was dumb and remarkably off-target.
Any questions ?
Only one...
Why be such an asshole?
Oh, I wasn't saying that you were speaking of him personally. I was just throwing my 2 cents in.
Somehow, for me, as a former sound guy, how the musician treats the crew matters a lot - almost more than their public persona or their performance. I wonder why? ;)
[btw, in this vein: fuck Bill Cosby. Fuck him a lot. He's the worst, ever ever ever]
Holding the entirety of hip hop accountable based on the what MTV plays is like holding jazz accountable because you've heard Kenny G's Christmas album (only 10.99 at Amazon AND available for free shipping!)
Just one question, bcruds, what is it about a slightly-off comparison that caused you to start dropping F-bombs and claim that hip-hop has destroyed anything valuable and viable in black culture?
"brucds, man you sure got touched by this one"
Not really. I find this amusing...and the fact that I generated a new thread by a couple of acerbic remarks would indicate I'm not the one who's "touched."
The truth is I listen to a bit of rap and even buy some - my wife is into it more than me, we've got a kid who has a local following and is pretty damned good, for what that's worth - but the genre overall bores the shit out of me. I loved the Last Poets, but it's been downhill IMHO. Mostly because I hate synthetic rhythms - hated it when they first came out of disco. I don't need to be "schooled" because I'm way past caring. I'm sure you've got your Mingus hidden away - I hope so for your sakes. I just find it funny that Wynton Marsalis would raise such hackles when he points out some stuff that's so damned obvious about how utterly creepy much of the most popular strains of rap have become. All the rest is a big "But..."
I don't watch MTV, for what that's worth. But keep those hackles up - I've gotta be totally ignorant of rap or else...something. As for "why be such an asshole", that's what I was wondering regarding the original attempt to tie Wynton Marsalis into Sarah Palin.
Okay, this is getting ridiculous.
Brucds, I'm guessing that Wynton Marsalis is a big and interesting enough man on his own to survive one possibly unfortunate comparison to Sarah Palin on one minor facet of his personality. Have you thought about taking up meditation?
Oh shit, I've got to take one more...
"why...claim that hip-hop has destroyed anything valuable and viable in black culture?"
I didn't. I said that "in the wake of rap, African-American culture is less of a treasure than in previous generations." Meaning that rap has failed to elevate it as African-American music generally has in the past. For what it's worth, the shit that passes as "R&B" these days is even worse, more boring, commercialized, etc. etc. Anyone who would argue that this is a Golden Age for black music would have to be broadcasting from another planet. I can't believe what I'm saying pisses people off so much. That's just weird.
Sorry Persia - meditation is even more boring than most rap...
Somehow, for me, as a former sound guy, how the musician treats the crew matters a lot - almost more than their public persona or their performance. I wonder why? ;)
I think you often learn a lot about people by how they treat those perceived as their 'lessers', S.G.E.W., not just the crew. Respect is something you can give anyone, free-- so it's good to see the people who are willing to hand it out.
For the record, there's a lot of jazz musicians, scholars, etc. who think that Wynton's opinions/attitudes about jazz (specifically jazz after about 1965/66, electric jazz such as Bitches Brew, and free jazz) are as ignorant as his attitudes about hip-hop and other popular musics. Not to say that he isn't a skilled trumpeter/bandleader (his early records with Marcus Roberts were some of my first exposure to jazz, and are still the best things he's done, IMHO), and not that he doesn't speak from a deep well of knowledge about the music (at least until people started using electric basses, and stopped playing changes) but his views of what jazz is are pretty myopic (Jazz in Japan or Europe? Cecil Taylor? Jazz-rock? These aren't real jazz, according to various statements Mr. Marsalis has made). This is a subject that will get most of my jazz nerd pals pretty worked up. I don't dispute that when Marsalis talks about hip-hop, he's trying to talk about something he has no knowledge of or interest in. Just like much of jazz history of the past 30 years. So I think T-N C's comments about Marsalis might be crashing into some of the modern jazz-nerds complaints about his attitudes about new jazz.
while i might not agree with everything he's written, i think lots of folks here haven't been actually listening to what brucds is saying.
his main points make a heck of a lot of sense.
and while i'm no marsalis fan, by any stretch - i paid good money to see him, back when he first burst on the scene and literally fell asleep during the show! - i'd agree that an analogy that put him in the same category as sarah palin is a bit of a stretch.
that much is pretty self-evident.
and that is not because marsalis is that good.
no, palin is that bad.
and, brucds, i'd bet that lots of rappers performing nowadays don't have any idea who the last poets were. if you asked them about the last poets, they'd respond like sarah palin responded when asked about supreme court cases.
Wynton is definitely a virtuoso. I enjoy his version of Concerto for Two Trumpets, which he plays by himself
but he's should firmly be in the "talk about what you know, and don't talk about other stuff" camp
As for innovation in hip hop, it all died with the Wu, as almost all hip hop since their heyday is pretty WU derivative (just ask Kanye West). There is some neat stuff on the fringes though (Madlib, MF Doom, Cadence Weapon) but none of that will likely ever become mainstream. Nor should it, nor do I want it too.
But keep those hackles up
You do seem like a reasonably intelligent person brucds, so I find it a bit odd that you have yet to realize that you are the only person on this entire thread with his "hackles up."
Yes. Some of us are fond of hip hop.
Yes. Some of us are not so fond of Marsalis' commentary with respect to hip hop.
Yes. It is arguable that TNC chose the wrong analogy (although for the record I think it was perfectly fine).
All that is granted. Why so upset? Why does this analogy bother you so much that you have taken to accusing others of having their heads up their asses? Seriously. Take it easy.
I'm so far over my limit I might as well let it all hang out...
"i'd bet that lots of rappers performing nowadays don't have any idea who the last poets were"
I'm cynical as hell about the information-level of a lot of rappers, but even I find that hard to believe. I mean, the genre is built on sampling old shit, right ? I guess I'm not as much of a hater as I thought I was. Damn !
"and, brucds, i'd bet that lots of rappers performing nowadays don't have any idea who the last poets were. if you asked them about the last poets, they'd respond like sarah palin responded when asked about supreme court cases."
Frankie, this is basically the problem--you're just wrong here. No disrespect, but like, flagrantly, embarrassingly wrong. It would be like me saying I bet most jazz dudes have no idea who Jellyroll Morton is. Rappers not only routinely cite the Last Poets--they've actually done records together (Nas and Common, to name two). They're routinely named by producers and rappers as HUGE influences. You don't have to like hip-hop, but damn, at least be open to the idea that you may not know what you're talking about.
I mean that with great respect Frankie. You are one of my most valued commenters.
So what is good hip-hop? Imagine you're talking to a middle-aged white guy who has dipped his toe into the pool and found it pleasant. He has Outkast, Ludacris and Public Enemy on his ipod, but doesn't know where to go next, and no one in his circle of peers has an answer for him.
Wynton Marsalis is a marvelous musician, but he could really use a pair of needle nose pliers.
Canuckistani,
I would suggest Gangsta Pat, 8Ball and MJG, and most importantly-Brotha Lynch Hung. No Ipod is complete without these artists.
TNC - there are people who know (Nas, Common) and then those that have no clue (TI, Lil Wayne, Flo Rida). Right now, the latter are getting more airplay and clubplay, so they are indicative of the conceptions most people who only scope the surface have of rap.
Flip on MTV, see some shit, and think "oh that's what rap is today."
It's like watching cable news and thinking that's what news is. It's what people in cable news think people want as their news, and not the actual news itself.
And no, I'm not being serious. While I find these guys entertaining, I doubt a guy just dipping his toe would feel the same way...
I got you Andrew, but frankly that's a weak excuse.
I hear cheap, smooth jazz all the time. I don't confuse it with Wynton. Moreover, I've got enough sense to know that hearing cheap, smooth jazz doesn't give me the right to inveigh against all jazz musicians. What is so wrong with saying I don't know? Or asking a question? Or saying, "I haven't studied this much but...?" I don't understand the need to speak like an expert.
Frankie didn't say "Rappers I hear on the radio" and for the record Nas is on the radio, he said "rappers performing nowadays." He was just wrong. The "well it's what I hear on the radio" excuse doesn't cut it. I read he business section of the Times. It doesn't make me an economist.
t-nc,
i should have qualified my comment.
i think most rappers who are successful, the ones like nas and certainly folks like stetsasonic - back in the day - the serious guys, know that history.
no doubt about that, and those are not the folks i referred to. my bad.
i'm talking about rappers like a couple of younger relatives of mine who dabble a bit and who actually do gigs and who have a bit of talent.
they do what they do because they enjoy the music and have a bit of talent.
but do they know the history? do they really understand the lineage?
absolutely not. their knowledge may go back to the sugarhill gang, and that's about it.
but, i agree wholeheartedly, because i've seen and heard guys pay homage to the last poets and gil scott heron and his contemporaries and when i hear that, my ears perk up.
what i'm talking about is the kid in the basement with his mike, the one imaging that he's going to make it big. that kid, who i view as a rapper, probably doesn't know the history.
and by the way, i'm a long time fan of hip hop and rap, from the beginning of the boom. i managed a record store on the east coast when rap first broke - back when mtv did not have a black face on it - and have crates full of 12 inchers by afrika bombatta and krs-one and all of the old school guys. i don't listen to it as much as i did a few years ago i stopped buying lots of music about 7 or 8 years ago - and i think it has real limitations, in some ways, but i'm by no means a person who denigrates the music.
in fact, i've always listened to it, and continue to do so now.
by the way, thanks for posting that stetsasonic video. i haven't seen that in a while and it was always one of my favorites.
Let me inject a more positive note in defense of our host :
"I read he business section of the Times. It doesn't make me an economist."
But I'll bet you thought ARMs were some crazy shit when you started hearing about lots of folks buying houses and condos with 'em.
Answer---->Stetsosonic:
the question--->How does an 11 yr. old white boy from the midwest learn the names of all the countries in Africa.
Angola, Zoweto, Zimbabwe, Tanzania, Zambia, Mozambique and Botswana, so let us speak about the motherland.......
It's amazing to read a mainstream political blog by someone of my exact age group that appreciates the truly hip-hip. I've been making "Amerikkka's Most Wanted" references for years.....ans shockingly, the folks at the Atlantic and TNR didn't recognize them.....
TNC you made my point precisely - You think my aunt knows who Guru is? All she knows about Biggie and Tupac are that they got shot. She thinks it's fine to say all rappers are thugs because that's what she's seen when she skates by BET while flipping through the channels.
the thing is, you have a better understanding of jazz than the average person has of rap music. Wynton is more akin to someone not knowing anything about physics and saying the LHC is going to end all life on earth.
Also, I didn't say Nas doesn't get airplay, just that lesser rappers get more. Like they said in The Royal Tennenbaum said "don't you play semantics with me!"
Tonight, I am hoping Joe Biden gives Sarah Palin the Gas Face.
"It's like watching cable news and thinking that's what news is."
There's obvious truth in this and, as I've said, I genuinely like occasional cuts I hear from rappers - but if in an interview I angrily asserted that "The news business is shit these days, journalism is becoming the province of pimps and whores and the audience for news is being treated like they're total morons", would it be credible to come back with, "You don't know what you're talking about because if you had a subscription to The New Yorker or The Atlantic, you'd know that Seymour Hersch and James Fallows have been turning out some truly righteous stuff." God knows Edward R. Murrow is probably over-rated and nostalgically deified - and for the record, I get as sick of Keith Olberman doing his faux-Murrow almost as much as I can't stand the rest of it, but while an angry dismissal of cable news as representative of all journalism is oversimplified and hyperbolic, journalism does appear to have lowered it's standards in direct proportion to it's proliferation and 24/7 presence and "the good stuff" seems to be come increasingly esoteric and "niche".
d'oh. Sorry for the repost. Delete it if you can.
For the Middle Aged White Guy:
First, I'd say go straight to Blackstar (Mos Def and Talib Kweli. Their 1998 album Reflection Eternal remain a gem. To me, no hip-hop song truly deserves the to be called "poetry" like the song "Respiration."
From there peep Kweli and Mos Def as solo artists. Common is the next logical step. There's some angry black man shit in his earlier albums, but if you can enjoy PE, than you can handle Common.
J-Live will also feed your mind with something good and J-Dilla's last album is a bittersweet look at what coulda/shoulda been the next movement in hip-hop.
Kanye West, despite his aweful personality has probably had the best first 3 album stretch in hip-hop.
Finally, if you're feeling REALLy brave, the Best hip-hop album of this century is Fishscales, by Ghostface Killah (if you are even still with me at this point, you're not your average middle aged white dude). It's basically a lyrical version of Scareface set to old soul cuts and some of the best storytelling in any genre.
Damn, "Ignorance in a three-piece suit is as bad as ignorance in a track-suit" is a great line.
I love Dylan too, but to think his skillset is anywhere close to...say, Rakim's is absurd.
Um.... Rakim was great, but no. I mean, I agree that Dylan wouldn't have made a great rapper, if he'd chosen to do that, but judged on their own terms I don't think it's close. Illmatic-era Nas, though, is a close call.
Rappers not only routinely cite the Last Poets--they've actually done records together (Nas and Common, to name two).
Sure, but at least one of those records sucks. Don't tell me, TNC, that you saw any merit in Untitled whatsoever.
TNC - there are people who know (Nas, Common) and then those that have no clue (TI, Lil Wayne, Flo Rida
With the exception of Flo Rida, the guys you mention who "have no clue" are today leaps and bounds over the rappers "who know." Say it with me, everybody: Common is washed up. Common is washed up. The Mouse and The Mask was an embarrassment. Kweli has no flow. Lil Wayne is a postmodern Dadaist genius. (Okay, that's pushing it, but he's very good.)
From there peep Kweli and Mos Def as solo artists. Common is the next logical step. There's some angry black man shit in his earlier albums, but if you can enjoy PE, than you can handle Common
Not angry black man shit! We wouldn't want our middle-aged white guy to hear the stuff from when he was actually good! Just the sanitized "conscious" garbage.
So what is good hip-hop? Imagine you're talking to a middle-aged white guy who has dipped his toe into the pool and found it pleasant. He has Outkast, Ludacris and Public Enemy on his ipod, but doesn't know where to go next, and no one in his circle of peers has an answer for him.
This is easy. There are certain rap albums that everyone needs to know, just like we're all forced to read Shakespeare in high school. These are, in no particular order, The Infamous, Illmatic, Only Built 4 Cuban Linx, Enter the Wu-Tang, Liquid Swords, Ready To Die, The Great Adventures of Slick Rick, Paid In Full, Criminal Minded, It Takes A Nation of Millions, Midnight Marauders, Straight Outta Compton, The Low End Theory, and The Chronic. Then from these, you can branch out to others.
He asked if they knew the Last Poets. He didn't ask if the songs were any good. The Corner is good, by the way.
Also, cut the dude some slack on "conscious" hip-hop. He recommended Fishscale for Christ sake calling it "the best hip-hop album of the century." Don't take him out context. J-Live is only mildly conscious and ditto for J-Dilla.
ok, Mos Def is a definite win. And I have enough suggestions to go on for a good long time. Thanks for the ideas, and if I could listen to punk without being an unemployed Brit, I'm sure I can listen to angry black men too.
Wow! this subject gets the crowd pissed. I just wanted to say, I like the clever title to this post. I also love Wynton and will excuse his attempt to rhyme. I've asked this before, is it worse than Stevie Wonder's attempt to rap at the end of Do I Do?