Fair enough. I have no way of judging how much of a problem "gay racist white men" are for me. I don't even have a way of knowing whether gays are more or less racist than straight people. Moreover, I don't much care. But Dan's logic basically only works if you see black people strictly as a group who've been shitted on. In other words, if you believe that racism is a singular and uncomplicated variable, that black folks aren't effected by any other factors, than you'll probably agree with Dan.
I'm done pretending that the handful of racist gay white men out there--and they're out there, and I think they're scum--are a bigger problem for African Americans, gay and straight, than the huge numbers of homophobic African Americans are for gay Americans, whatever their color.
But if you believe black people are not just receptacles for bigotry, not just automatons programmed by centuries of racism, if you believe they consume oxygen like the Irish, that they ingest solid food like the Italians, that they enjoy a good drink like the denizens of Appalachia, that they like to party like gays of any color, that they like to dance like white women, then you understand that no group, anywhere, ever was ennobled by oppression. (The Jews, maybe? No?)
Groups of people who end up on the bad end of history aren't heroic, they aren't better for it, they're just down--and, in most cases, they'd put the victors down if they could. What's the old saying? Black folks didn't object to slavery, they objected to being the slaves. Heh, we don't regret the Middle Passage, we regret the Sahara Desert. We regret not having guns and ships. We regret not being first. And so it is for most of humanity. It's true that individuals sometimes draw wisdom from suffering--but nations tend to be all about the zero-sum.
Look, rightly or wrongly, I'm embarrassed by whatever role black folks played in Prop 8. But that's not because I necessarily think black people are the crux of the problem, it's because I'm black and I want us to fucking represent. I'm not gay, and Dan is grappling with something that doesn't affect me in the same way. But I do know a bit about anger and generalizing. I know that, together, the two are likely responsible for some of the biggest blunders of my career. I know that they generally lead me wrong. I know that whenever I lead with broad statements like, "huge numbers of homophobic African-Americans"--or conversely--"huge number of racist Appalachians" instead of precise questions, people tend to shut down and stop listening. As well they should.
UPDATE: Sebastian shows us all how to math. It's worth reading.
The Beautiful Struggle: A Father, Two Sons, and an Unlikely Road to Manhood 
Thank you man
Well, I am gay and I am not black, and I am a big fan of Dan, and I understand where he is coming, but TNC is 100% right on this.
It is fine to point to the obvious problem of homophobia in the black community but I'm also seeing a little bit of scapegoating here. C'mon my fellow gays, support for amendment 8 was in the very, very high 40s both between whites and hispanics. We need to work a little bit harder with anyone. Also, we voted for Obama because he was just too fucking much better than the alternative both for the country and for gays. We were going to vote, for whom, Palin? It is such BS to blackmail black people as if we did them a favor. Remind me of some straight people that I have come out to them, they have said "fine" and then some time later we have had a disagreement they would say "But I accepted you as you are" -Oh, thanks so much!
"Black folks didn't object to slavery, they objected to being the slaves."
I think this is the crux of the problem. As a Jew, let me speak of my people with wildly sweeping generalities. I think the history of Jewish oppression culminating in the Holocaust minted two kinds of Jews: those that said, "Oppression, like the kind we suffered, is wrong," and "The oppression we suffered is wrong."
Do you become more tribal in the face of oppression, or more universal? Do you vow that you will never let it happen to anyone ever again? Or that it will never happen to you and yours ever again.
The more defensive a people become, the more under siege they feel, the more they become tribal. That's why many Israelis are so defensive/crazy/Likud. Hopefully, with Barack's election, black folk will feel a little less under siege, and will be able to embrace universalism a little more.
Everybody else too. Lord knows we all need more of that.
I'm generally surprised by the lack of quantitative argument from Dan Savage here. In particular, there are close to 10 times as many white Californians as black Californians. Thus, rather than looking at the vote margins in each racial group for the vote on Prop 8, one could ask: how many homophobes are there within each community.
By this standard, I think it's pretty clear that across the nation (and within California) there are more homophobes in the white community than in the black community, because even if the percentage of homophobes in the black community is higher, there are a lot more white people out there. Base rates matter.
As to Eduardo - it is indeed fine to point out the obvious homophobia in the black community. And Dan did just that. What's the problem? To "scapegoat" is to blame a blameless thing in lieu of the actual blameworthy thing. But African-Americans were by far the most ardent supporters of Proposition 8. Are they not blameworthy?
"I think the history of Jewish oppression culminating in the Holocaust minted two kinds of Jews: those that said, "Oppression, like the kind we suffered, is wrong," and "The oppression we suffered is wrong."
@Muzz - I think you hit the nail on the head.
I hope the election of Barack Obama will enable more people of color, who are celebrating this symbolic lifting of oppression, now turn to job of lifting oppression from all of our sisters and brothers.
I think Dan should speak to his own community. I've read that 1/2 of voting age gays in CA aren't even registered to vote and that 1/3 of registered gay voters didn't even vote in this election.
Of course it's better not to start throwing blame around at all and start working to change this around.
49% of fucking white fucking voters in fucking California????
Whatever problems the black community may have and for whatever reasons, Jesus Fucking Christ!
Now I rightfully feel like a dick for being so complacent and assuming it'd be a relative cakewalk.
Fuck.
Thanks for this post. I'm a Hetero Black Woman and voted No on 8. I also know many other Black folk that voted no. I don't deny the homophobia that exists in our community, but generalization is EXTREMELY dangerous. This is going down a really bad road from which there may be no return. I've shutdown myself.
Just to be clear, I do care for what happened to us on Tuesday. We lost also in Florida 62-38. To make it more personal to me, when I came to the states a couple of friends of 25 years gave me a room to stay while they and their two girls cramped in the other bedroom for 3 weeks until I found an efficiency to live. They were so generous they never made me felt I was disrupting their lives (which I obviously was). So I called the wife to try to talk her to vote on Amendment 2 (our own Prop 8 but way more vicious) and I asked her: how are you going to vote and she said, very matter-of-factly: "Yes". I then when on auto-pilot: but do you know that straight people in domestic partnership will be strip of their rights too? Then she said: really? Really, I said, and then went on explaining the whole thing. Her answer: Oh, then I am voting "no"
So, there you have it. This is the shit (good and bad) we all are made. We need to learn to live with it and just try to make all of us a little bit better --at least when we have the energy or the predisposition, when we are not in a fuck-you mood.
Yah, Dan's a stud, but this is a stupid argument. Because voting for a black candidate and voting against a proposition that would deny gay people rights are not comparable. Because it's much easier to diss a group's humanity than an individual's. Because, as TNC has rightly insisted, oppression is not a pissing contest. And because, as Eduardo suggests, success on this front is not getting "only" 53% or 49% of blacks to oppose gay marriage.
"African-Americans were by far the most ardent supporters of Proposition 8. Are they not blameworthy?"
Blameworthy as a race? The thing that most gets my hackles up on this is because it blames a *race* for a cultural problem. Yes, there's a malaise in the African-American community about homosexuality, as there is in many communities about many things. But to talk about blaming a race is just one more tribal resentment that helps no one.
Say it's just a mistake of phrasing, but it matters.
I agree with the people who point out that blacks weren't going to sway Prop 8
At the same time... I canvassed for Obama with a gay man. He looked past the color of his skin, like so many people out there, to support Obama with his time, energy, etc. etc. I know how facile it is to harp on the fact that he supported a black candidate when blacks didn't support gays. He had his own reasons for supporting Obama, in a way that most blacks didn't really have self-interest for supporting Prop 8. I get that. And yet, it still just doesn't square for me.
I think Ta-Nehisi has it right here, and I think he's very smart to point out that oppression is not a path to enlightenment. But the irony is pretty palpable, and it's something that I hope will change.
I agree with J here. There are WAY more whites in California than there are blacks. If you believe the exit poll, 47% of whites voted for this is way more than 70% of blacks even if turnout was 60% among blacks.
Something needs to be made very clear. If gays think being racist towards blacks is going to shame blacks into voting for gay marriage, they are DEAD wrong. Most blacks will ignore them or laugh at them. A lot of blacks believe their struggle much more significant than the gay struggle. That may be the biggest thing here. It is a civil rights issue and people need to understand that, but a lot people don't think like those of us who support gay marriage. Religion plays a big role in this as well.
The point needs to be made that voting Yes on it meant voting No and voting No on it meant voting Yes. We had the same problem here in Ohio in 2004 and my Mom and I were worried that we may have actually voted for the gay marriage ban. A lot of people just do not focus on politics day in and day out, so they may have been confused. There needed to be more outreach on the issue. We can't just confine ourselves to the white neighborhoods and expect the minorities just to do the right thing. That's not going to happen.
@John,
It is a little bit of stretch to going to put all -or even more of the blame- on them when they are such a tiny part of the electorate and whites and hispanics vote 49% each for Prop 8. If I may say, this margin of error stuff. We might as well gone all crazy on say, "white evangelicals" or probably, I don't know for sure "poor Hispanics" or whatever other group didn't go our way. Here in Florida it was hispanics that voted the more against us. And to try to make comparisons with how (not) racist gays are with how homophobic blacks are make no sense and leads to, well, nowhere.
In addition to what Nato said, I think that Savage's argument shades into scapegoating because the more we talk about black homophobes (or even worse, "the homophobic blacks," as they're all that) so obssesively, we seem to be letting homophobic whites off the hook, and making blacks solely responsible for this conundrum. That's not cool, and it's certainly not productive, but I've seen too much of it on the "liberal blogosphere" already and I'm glad to Coates calmly and thoughtfully counter it.
Could it be that Obama's presidency will bring greater visibility and hence greater responsibility to black Americans? I've been wondering. Today we have evidence that a black man can get a Harvard Law degree and get himself elected Senator and President of the United States. He just has be smart enough, work hard enough, and be good enough. Maybe a little smarter, harder and gooder than white guys (like the current occupant).
You know, I think that blacks have been more oppressed in our culture than whites, but they have also been quite powerful. White kids want to be Michael Jordan. I use as my handle a riff on the name of a black basketball player (and true gentleman to boot).
The question is not whether you've been oppressed, or how bad your oppression has been. The question is what are you going to do about it? Are you gonna just carry that big stone on your back all your life and point to it and say "see what's holding me back!" or are you gonna try and put it down, or split it in half, or get stronger, or build a power suit to help you carry it.
If you keep your eyes on the obstacle, you'll never overcome it.
Prop 8 is eating into my joy right now. I am trying to stay positive, and thank you TNC for this post. Yes, we human beings are imperfect, suffering and oppression do not ennoble. When Obama gave his victory speech, I felt proud, and I did feel the sense of unity with so many different people I knew who supported him. Then I woke up to Prop 8, and we just have a lot of work to do, but we have to do it together.
Obama was the first presidential candidate I gave money to, and no against Prop 8 was the first proposition I gave money to. As a white 30 something heterosexual, my girlfriend and most of my friends voted no on prop 8, but when I tried to get them to donate they seemed very blasé about it. I have got a number of friends who are gay and I could just imagine how crushing this would be to them but others didn't seem to get that.
This is a long way of saying I think a lot of people weren't that concerned about the issue and its going to require connecting with them in order for gay rights to move forward. Blaming groups seems counter productive.
So lemme get this straight, yet another group is coming up with reasons to be pissed at Black folk? Uhh..wait a second...
"But African-Americans were by far the most ardent supporters of Proposition 8. Are they not blameworthy?"
If we're categorizing ardent support, then the Mormon church that funded this entire fiasco would qualify as the most ardent supporters. You can extrapolate that to the Christian community if you'd like to and that would still be a more honest representation of who was in favor of this measure as opposed to just blacks.
I do think that it is shameful that our people would break in favor of prop 8, but I wonder what the raw numbers of support look like. 50+% of blacks voted for prop 8, but how many people is that? How does that compare to the number of whites, asians, and latinos?
The problem here is that we often forget that minorities are rarely unifed in the struggle. I think the Jews standing with the blacks would be a major exception. The Irish and the Italians, barely removed from late 19th century and early 20th century discrimination, were not ardent supporters of the civil rights movement. Many emale suffragists saw the extension of voting rights to black males before white women as a personal affront. Oppression rarely creates a unified front.
What must be done to keep this crap from happening again is more outreach to the Christians who go to suburban churches. The church is where the support, both financially and electoraly, comes from.
I for one, do not agree with the approach that the No on 8 campaign took. I feel that they should have personalized it. Showed specific Californian gay couples discussing why they want to be married. Talking about, playing with, fretting over their children, their medical issues, legal issues with home ownership and inheritance.
For example, my doctor. She's been with her partner for 30 years, I think. They've built a beautiful home together. How much trouble did they have putting their wills together? How much trouble could their families have made for them with regard to hosipital visitation? And so on.
The theme of the campaign was, "it's not fair". And I agree with that statement, but I don't think that persuades people very much.
I think that if people understood what how being gay makes so many things harder, they'd feel a lot less like it was a "lifestyle choice", and a giving in to temptation. Ta-Nehisi likes to talk about seeing the woman at the other end of the bar with a herb. But if you're gay, you can't tell by looking whether someone is a potential partner.
We all have to risk rejection. But if you're gay, you don't just risk rejection but humiliation and an outside chance of physical violence.
female suffragists*
I am pretty much in agreement with Ta-N on this.
I would like to add a plea for some understanding for the anger gay folk are experiencing right now though. I'm getting some emails from friends and it's upsetting to hear that people cried on Nov 4 for entirely different reasons than most of us.
To put it this way: having people who should be supporting you betray you is more bitter than having the obvious religious conservatives hold you down. I imagine gay people thinking that the same people who voted for Obama also voted to deny them their rights is a bit of a mindfuck.
It's equivalent to knowing that in the part of Pennsylvania I was canvassing, there were voter suppression tactics coming not from the Republicans, but from local Democratic Party folk. Not just random people being racist, but actual Democrats with some local position instigating voter suppression because they hate Obama. It's the anger at being betrayed by "your own" that makes it feel so bad.
Whatever "ennobling" Jews got from oppression... it took a very long time.
But after being thrown out of or escaping from a few dozen countries, after repeated attempts at assimilation on six continents over two millennia that most often ended with surrounding cultures turning on us, after enduring everything we've endured -- we finally caught on that the only way we'll ever be confident of fair treatment is if *everybody* gets fair treatment.
Talmudic scholars had been pushing that view for a thousand years, but it took until the last century for the majority of our community to wake up.
.
I'm curious why Dan began pretending this in the first place. What possible utility does the comparison have? And why just gay men? It reminds me of all that sexism vs. racism jazz in the primaries, as though making social progress were a zero sum game.
I'm gay, yet I'm not that disappointed - actually pleasantly surpised that the vote was so close. Yes, I shouldn't have to negotiate my rights, blah, blah, blah, but the reality is that minorities have to fight the uphill battle. Gay marriage will be instituted - it's only a matter of time - be patient, keep cool and make peace. Blaming black people is ridiculous.
Dan's angry. I'm still sublimating a profound sadness into anger, but even I know that blaming groups of any stripe -- race, class, religion -- like this is what gets us into these messes in the first place.
Blame isn't a bludgeon with which to hit people over the head. That just either kills em off or makes them even less disposed to your perspective. Whatever voting breakdowns may be distilled out of this bitterness should be used as a guide to make inroads and where we need to do the most work, not to give us a target to scream at.
I'll tell you what I am angry about: this is the third major election year that I've been deeply disappointed about, and my guy won!!!! Just when the wheel clicks one notch further away from bigotry nationally, it smacks me hard, here, at home, in one of the last places I expected.
Time to scour the Shire of some bigotry.
P.S. A thank you to one of your posters yesterday (Peter?) who said, "We got this," in reference to the next generation and equal marriage rights. Thank you, man. That, more than anything, lifted me up.
I think part of Savage's problem is that he fell into the trap of assuming that all "oppressed" minority groups will, or should, stick up for each other. Maybe they should, but the reality is that it's not that simple.
The percentages are upsetting, but the reality is that Prop-Hate didn't pass because a majority of blacks voted for it. It passed because a majority of blacks voted for it AND almost half of whites voted for it AND large percentages of Latinos and Asians voted for it. The No On 8 campaign just didn't move enough people, of any color.
Meanwhile, if Savage wants more blacks to reject homophobia, then maybe he can contribute to the effort by knocking it off with the victim one-upmanship. The effects of racism and those of homophobia aren't the same. I don't agree with dismissing sexual minorities' concerns as "trivial" compared to the problems facing people of color...but Shang is correct: our fight is NOT just like their fight. Blacks are, by definition, a visible minority. LGBT people are, for the most part, an invisible minority. We're born into the same families as the dominant majority. We came into the country in all the same ways that heterosexuals did, and our socioeconomic history looks just like theirs. We need to step very carefully about how we compare the struggle for gay rights to the struggle for racial equality.
I heard from a woman that I know some time ago with some very telling insights into her advocacy work for sexual minorities: the LGBT "community" is not a monolith. On the national scale, most of the agitating is coming from people who live in liberal areas and make good money. They assume they speak for all queers, but their concerns are not the same as those of poor folks in the Bible Belt. Perhaps Savage is also falling into that trap: if you're a healthy, able-bodied adult who lives in a blue state and makes a good living, then you might feel like there's nothing more important than the right to get married. I don't downplay the importance of marriage equality, but a little bit of perspective in our attitude might do our advocacy some good.
opression is opression is opression. don't care who it is.
My prayer, agnostic prayer, is that the CA supreme court will say it's a constitutional amendment, requires a 2/3 vote and through it out.
Your marriage ain't my business. Mine isn't yours. Except if we invite each other to celebrate together. That's the community part. Andrew taught me that.
I'm in the throes of how to figure out 1. How to stop feeling personally responsible for anything anybody black does anywhere 2. How to combat what seems insurmountable, and 3. What to say to my cousin, her wife, and their daughter.
My joy is tainted.
I'm with TNC and Tom on this. I come from a supposedly liberal part of CA with a large white majority, and while the Nos carried the county, 45% of the folks here voted Yes. That's simply shameful.
It's easy to try and munge the numbers to fix the blame on somebody else, but in the end, 8 passed because too many people of all stripes voted for it, and whether one group was 55-45 for or 55-45 against seems pretty irrelevant.
Southpaw: YES. I think anyone who finds himself starting an argument with "I'm done pretending that..." should stop, count to ten and consider whether he's contributing anything or just venting. If Savage really sees the world that way, like a big scoreboard where you everyone's on a team and you decide who deserves consideration based on how much of what was done by which team, that would be pretty fucked up. Based on his other writing I don't think he does see the world that way, but it was a fucked-up remark.
(And it's awfully close to the kind of rhetoric we see all the damn time from right-wing assholes who are "done pretending" that racism is a bigger problem than crime or whatever - like they tried so very hard to be PC all this time, but then OJ was acquitted and they gave up on their selfless idealism.)
More than 50% of Californians voted for prop 8. That's a tangible problem to be solved.
If the margin was really 2% then convincing 3% of California's population that they were wrong to vote for prop 8 is enough to overturn it.
Convincing 3% of California is tangible work that has to be done.
If question about Black people and prop 8 is are Black people who voted for prop 8 a good target to get the 3% needed to overturn the proposition.
I'm Black, male, hetero and agnostic/athiest, and I don't think I can be persuasive right now to a Black person who voted for prop 8. The amount of disgust I have towards, especially, Black church leaders would make mutual understanding an impossible outcome in any discussion I could have with any of them.
It's a feeling. I guess it will pass. But sometimes these religious people make me sick.
Anyway, somebody put up a link to an organization that is working to overturn this. My feel is that it will take 3%, whether Black or not, and then the people who are left I can just ignore.
I'm embarrassed for Black people. I am very very angry at the Black church that is acting exactly the way I'm ashamed to expect it to act. But keeping my eye on the prize, overturning this is going to take 3% of California's population and it is doable and after venting our emotions, we have to start working on it.
Hello,
Frequent reader, first time poster here. I live in California (recently moved from the East Coast) and I voted No on Prop 8. I am sorry to see that it did not pass but at the same time and I DO NOT appreciate being scapegoated for this. I don't want to speak for all AAs but I think that there is a perception that homosexuality is a white issue. You have images of high powered lesbians (Ellen, Rosie) and upper west-side gays (fictional Will & Grace) and I do not think that blacks identify with that. I believe that it would be best if both rooms reached out to each other.
I also will say this: in dealing with members of the gay community the white ones whom I've encountered often are extremely ARROGANT. The sentiment that I pick up from them is that "I wouldn't even be dealing with you if I weren't gay". I guess some of them may feel like we (as AAs) owe them our support because we're both opposed parties - we do not. Please know this.
In talking with my black LGBT friends I hear them speak of the racism and the disenfranchisement that they feel from the "mainstream" gay community. Who knows? Maybe non-LGBT AAs picked up on this as well and said to hell with it.
Re: Nato's comment.
It was not a mistake of phrasing - that is, it was deliberate. How could it not be?
There many reasons, some good and some not so, why we categorize people into racial groups. We do it to examine whether people having a certain skin color are more likely to be pulled over than others. We do it to show the composition of college student bodies. And we (and by "we" I mean the LA Times) do it to see if there are correlations between voting propositions and racial groups.
The correlation is simple and plain, whether it raises hackles or no. You may want to think on the fact that a relatively small, relatively impotent, and easily attacked group of people just had an important human and legal right voted away. Surely, this is much more hackle-raising.
Were the Jews ennobled by oppression? Uh, no.
I think you could have made that argument about us when we were the plucky little survivors who made the desert bloom. When we took our homeland and made it a hell for the people who'd lived there before us? Precious little nobility.
People are people. I understand Dan's anger. My understanding of the exit poll stats is that a massive number of African-Americans voted yes on Prop 8, for whatever reason (as St Augustine said, only God can say what is in a man's heart). But there is no one source of blame here.
The fight for civil rights is a struggle, and sometimes it's two steps forward and one back. But the overall movement is forward. The key is never ever to give up the fight.
I always appreciate the math....
Bit of background: Andrew had a link to a Ruffini piece on the youth vote--just winning them, not even the slight increased turnout, is a big part of Obama's margin. And the comments on the post were illuminating: some practical people talking about how social conservatism lost young people while keeping the base of increasingly old people, and some exchanges along the lines of "Young people are a bunch of wimps; who needs 'em--we'll get em in another 4 years when they've seen something" vs "That's sure to help."
So, voters over 65 backed Prop 8 2 to 1. Voters under 30 opposed Prop 8 2 to 1. Forget the 6% of the population in CA that's black; win over some old people, or give it 5 years and the electorate should have shifted enough to defeat it. (I can't believe they can amend the constitution on a 50%+1 vote anyhow; that court case to insist on the 60 or 65% margin might do it. )
Go to the source, Dan Savage. The problem is homophobia, not the color of the face of the homophobia. Who accepts this sexual prejudice? Who "evanglizes" it? Hmmm, let see...
One thing Obama taught is that elections are about numbers.
Obama came up with a way to turn maximize the enthusiasm, donations and volunteer time available and to direct those resources to 52% of the national popular vote and over 300 electoral votes.
TNC points out that Obama's being Black was not a first order concern. His team was out to get votes on the terrain where it found itself.
I'm emotional right now, but this is not an emotional issue.
We as liberals have to now put together our resources and win next time - changing some African American minds and some minds of all races, either way, one way or another we have to reach over 50% next time.
I'm going to make a contribution to this cause, not a huge one, but that is a productive outlet for what I feel. Being mad is human, but unemotionally doing what has to be done to reach the right number of voters is what is going to overturn this.
70-30 pro constitutional discrimination of a minority group. I don't blame African Americans for Prop 8's passage. No, that took millions more votes than they could provide. But I'm sure as hell angry about those numbers. I just don't understand why this particular group is so different in their views than other groups are. This is hostile.
My joy over the Obama victory has been tainted. I was ecstatic on Tuesday night when I was (finally) able to fall asleep. I awoke to the reality that we've elected a black man who's a progressive and a Constitutional scholar who proposes equality, just in a separate institution from the majority.
It's very hard rouse supporters to vote against Prop 8 when you preface your views by stating you don't support same-sex marriage. You know, that kind of statement might make people who see an initiative banning same-sex marriage think that Obama's views align more closely with Yes on 8.
And there we are. Every couple of years left and right gather to argue their disagreements and then unite peacefully in their agreement that gay people are lesser. And black people apparently agree with that sentiment much more strongly than other groups. I just don't know what to do about that.
I'm going to be an apologist for Dan a little bit and say that I think his anger is directed not at the African American community but at the lack of attention which is being paid to gay rights in comparison to racism in our society as a whole right now. More controversially I suppose, he is implying that because homophobia is more entrenched and openly condoned in our society at this moment than racism we ought to be expending more of our finite energy to its cause. What he is saying to the African American community right now I think is hey, we've had your back, why haven't you had ours?
I do agree it is not helpful to weigh the suffering of one group of people against the other. But I don't think its unhelpful to point out the suffering and the lack of action being taken about it out. Perhaps having been oppressed does not make a person less likely to be an oppressor, but it is certainly the best point of departure for convincing someone to put an end to it. That is, the best way to convince those African Americans who currently oppose gay marriage to come around to the other side is going to be to point out the similarites of their suffering to the suffering of the gay community.
I can't speak for all jews. I can't speak for most jews. I can't speak for Israeli jews or Orthodox jews. What I can speak for is Midwestern and East Coast reformed jews, both communities in which I have lived and observed and known. That said, every jew I have met and known from the subset I describe feels a powerful resonance with this poem by German intellectual Martin Niemoller:
"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."
To put this in context, I am furious at the GOP, but want to see Obama reach out to conservatives. I loathe racists, but understand that their hate is a product of ignorance, not evil. I fear the fundamentalist theocratic government of Iran, but know that ordinary Iranians have more in common with ordinary Americans than almost any other arab group in the world.
For me, "never again" doesn't mean "never again shall we stand idly by while millions of jews are murdered", it means "never again shall _I_ stand idly by while the forces of intolerance, ignorance and hate gird their loins for 'revolution'."
They haven't counted my No on 8 vote yet (late mail ballot). I hope it makes the difference.
I agree with a lot of what's been said. For me, Savage, like most gays and lesbians, is understandably angry and broken-hearted. But it isn't productive to single out one group, whether or not they're disproportionately homophobic. I have been pretty angry at ALL heterosexuals, not just the African-American ones, and again that's because I'm angry. Of course, most of the people who voted AGAINST Prop 8 were straight as well, and I have to keep reminding myself of that.
I'm from Baltimore, where we do have a large African-American gay community (I myself am a gay white man). I have no doubt that GLBT Marylanders will never see same-sex marriage in this state. Still, we as gays and lesbians (and straight allies) need to remember that this fight isn't going to be won in a day. It might go a little faster now, and I am surprised that it only took THIS long for gay marriage to happen in some states.
I think the next step from here - and this has echoed in my head since the election - is to just be more visible to straight people. Another thing I've been thinking constantly is that old saying, that a black man has to work twice as hard for a white man to even give him half as much. I see the same thing with GLBT's today. To get even half the distance towards winning our civil rights, we have to be twice as upright, twice as visible, and twice as righteous as any straight person. So I understand, and feel, Dan Savage's pain and betrayal. Still, I can't agree with what he said, and realize that even more than ever we have to fight but keep a level head. That's tricky but we have to.
"When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
"When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
"When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
"When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I was not a Jew.
"When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out."
"I think part of Savage's problem is that he fell into the trap of assuming that all "oppressed" minority groups will, or should, stick up for each other. Maybe they should, but the reality is that it's not that simple."
It's hard to see other people fights as your own, especially if standing shoulder to shoulder means taking a risk; and doubly so if the 'minority' in question is a minority you think has chosen to be a minority.
So far as I can tell, I didn't chose to be straight, and I don't reckon that anyone choses to be homosexual either. But I do chose to have sex and I did chose to get married. I chose to do things in bed with my wife that, up until Bowers v. Hardwick were illegal in many states, even for married couples. (I chose to do those things with other women back when those things were illegal.)
I also chose to make and distribute films for which I could face charges in numerous states and municipalities throughout the county, and even at a federal level. (Among other things) I regard the making of these films as an exercise of my civil rights. There are also films I choose not to make and distribute because the risk of the prosecution seems especially high, and I regard that as an imposition on my civil rights.
Do Dan Savage or Andrew Sullivan of any other gay men decrying black homophobia owe me some special consideration? Does the discrimination they suffer mean they have some special obligation to speak out on my behalf? How about blacks, or irish, or jews. Does membership in an "oppressed" minority mean a person has a special obligation to defend me?
I'm pretty sure the answer is "no". I'm pretty sure that the act of standing up for another person's rights is an act of conscience, and that each person must answer as an individually for what the choose to do -- or choose not to do.
"We need to step very carefully about how we compare the struggle for gay rights to the struggle for racial equality."
What I think we need to do is get past equating civil rights with equality. Civil rights encompasses equality and liberty. If we do that, perhaps we can leave behind "victim one-upsmanship" and start working towards a nation that offers liberty and equality to of its all people.
I think that a lot of the people who are surprised about how the AA community voted are forgetting that while we are a very consistent voting block, the consistency and the numbers for a huge swath of black voters is directly tied to the church. (My Aunt, who belongs to the AME church, tried to anoint me with oils before I went to college ... No joke.) I'm saddened, but not surprised by those numbers. I'd even venture to guess that the 'phobe share of the black vote might have been even higher without Obama attracting so many new registrations. These are Evangelicals with better food.
I don't live in CA, but I have a couple of questions about the outreach done within the black community for No on Prop 8.
1. Did they do any interviews with black radio such as Michael Baisden and/or Tom Joyner?
2. Did they get prominent AA's (both straight and gay) do go into the community?
Just an aside, I'm black and believe in gay marriage as a human issue, but I can't name any prominent black gay activist not even fictional ones. I think the gay community needs to find a way to make this an emotional issue for black people. Civil rights wasn't personal to most white people until they saw the faces of Rosa Parks, MLK, and students being chased with dogs. It may not be right, but I think that's the way human nature works. You have to hit people in their heart.
I think anyone who finds himself starting an argument with "I'm done pretending that..." should stop, count to ten and consider whether he's contributing anything or just venting.
I think this is the downside of our blogging culture; our venting becomes public and debatable very quickly.
"Civil rights wasn't personal to most white people until they saw the faces of Rosa Parks, MLK, and students being chased with dogs. It may not be right, but I think that's the way human nature works. You have to hit people in their heart."
I Agree 100%
interestingly, FiveThirtyEight posts that Obama outperformed Kerry among all voters except the 65+ and gay and lesbian voters (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/obama-outperforms-kerry-among-virtually.html)
...why?
Dear TNC--
To answer your question, and speaking as a Jew, no, we are not ennobled by oppression. Not all of us, anyway. See AIPAC, Kristol, Netanyahu, Kahane, etc. They are to me what homophobic black voters are to you.
And since you're a Marvel fan, consider Magneto. There's a Jewish character who survived the holocaust as a child and anti-mutant bigotry as an adult, and it turns him into a genocidal villain in his own right. To my mind, Magneto (who, incidentally, was dreamed up by Jewish writers) is a stand-in for the neocons and the Likudniks, not to mention violent revanchists of any other oppressed group.
"Civil rights wasn't personal to most white people until they saw the faces of Rosa Parks, MLK, and students being chased with dogs. It may not be right, but I think that's the way human nature works. You have to hit people in their heart"
That's fine as a working premise. But how exactly am I supposed to live my private home life in a way that is visible? How do I demonstrate, publicly, that I am punished financially because I cannot marry my partner? The real difference was that African Americans were not allowed to fully participate in public life, and so sitting in a certain seat on the bus could make a statement. I cannot go get a protest marriage.
The biggest difference that I see in the fights for civil rights between blacks and gays is that the general public acknowledges that being black is not a choice.
I fully acknowledge that the road has been harder for black people. Just don't let that fool you into thinking our journey has been shorter. For as long as there have been black people in America, there have been gay people.
Being able to live or pass as being straight has allowed us to avoid the horrors that were inflicted on black people. But that is also precisely what is preventing us from achieving full equality.
"Go to the source, Dan Savage. The problem is homophobia, not the color of the face of the homophobia. Who accepts this sexual prejudice? Who "evanglizes" it? Hmmm, let see..."
Black preachers, I suppose. You can't try to put how black people voted on this on Pat Robertson.
The absolute most infuriating homophobia that I ever encountered was a black woman's. She got up and gave her presentation on what made gays gay. Her research had been started on her own opinion, used religious bigots as sources, and never veered towards science or study. She concluded with the statement that gays were all sexually molested as children.
I was respectfully silent throughout, but I was too furious when it was over to do more than try to indicate she'd offended me, swear, and walk away. I hope she got the F she deeply deserved. I get where Dan's coming from because I've never heard racism that deeply rooted yet commonplace.
But I still regret not trying to educate her. Lost my temper. My bad.
@Gex
Exactly what I've been trying (and failing) to make a lucid post about. What are going to have, images of the cops busting in on two gay guys consummating their marriage? I don't see this as winning over the people who vote in favor of Prop 8.
I'm a Black feminist queer woman and I have always been irritated with Savage's lack of carefulness and complexity. I get that he's pissed about 8 passing, I'm pissed about 8 passing, but seriously, we can do better than trying to pass this comment off as some kind of insightful political analysis.
I appreciate your posts today and yesterday, Ta-Nehisi. We do have work to do in the Black community on issues of gender and sexuality, we always have. But let's put this in some historical context. Black folks in the U.S. have a different political trajectory than white folks in the U.S. Without going into a whole lecture, racism has almost always found its most vile and effective means through sexual and reproductive violence and distortions. Consider sexuality, rape, and family under chattel slavery; how lynchings were not just murder, but about sexual disfigurement and rape anxieties; the Eugenics movement to forcibly sterilize Black women and men throughout the 20th century; the vicious Moynihan report; the crazy "welfare queen" debate... Black sexuality has always been a primary target for systematic violence.
So, part of the response has been to double down on a socially conservative view of family and sexuality, perhaps to convince ourselves (I'm talking about Black folks), as well as white folks, that we are "normal" and not deserving of racial violence. This understandable strategy should sound familiar to LGBT folks. That's why we (now I'm talking about queers) often marginalize poorer queers, trans folks, and generally queers that are queerer than your white, middle class/wealthy, monogamous, child-desiring, marriage-dreaming, picket fence, "We're just like you!" queers. (i.e. Savage, Ellen, Rosie, etc.)
There seems to be a hope that if we (now talking about Black folks and queers) can just demonstrate that we are not too scary, that we can stay in line and conform appropriately, then they'll treat us like we are human.
In the meantime, the majority of Black families are not traditionally nuclear families. Look at your own family, Ta-Nehisi, and your and Kenyatta's decision to avoid marriage and a wedding. That's interesting. I think queers can build stronger coalitions if we have a more complex discussion about how this nuclear family shit isn't working for lots of us, particularly Black and Latino families, but also lots of families that include straight white folks. Shit, when Madelyn Dunham died, Sullivan had it quite right when he said that she was Obama's last parent. Obama (and Bill Clinton) came from non-traditional families -- or families that were "queer" in the sense that they were counter-normative. This could be an opportunity.
I really hope this isn't interpreted as "Black folks think that racism is an excuse for their homophobia." That interpretation is, as you might put it, Ta-Nehisi, WEAK SAUCE. The awesome sauce, as it were, would be an analysis that takes history and intersection of these oppressions seriously, and uses that analysis as a way to define coalition strategies. Hopefully, this could create a richer analysis than what Savage (and others) have offered so far: Blacks against queers. Weak. Boring. And not in the least bit productive.
I dunno ... I kind of have a lot of sympathy for Dan on this. As non-sensical as it is "blame" a race of people, there is a kernel of truth in wanting to call out the bullshit and demand something different in the future. It doesn't make a lot of sense to demand something from a group of people, but he's got some justifiable rage. The disparity between how blacks and other groups voted on the bill is not deniable, even if we can crunch the numbers and say it wasn't decisive.
But, on the other hand No on 8 was a terrible campaign for the most part. I felt like it was always talking to me and I'm in the tank, always have been. Where were the ads, the door knocking, the outreach, to the great massive middle of people that are uneasy about gay marriage but persuadable?
I've been waiting and dreading for people to start blaming the Black community as a whole for the passage of Prop. 8 since tracking early exit poll numbers on Tuesday night. You can play the numbers any way you like, and say that Whites are responsible because there are so many more of them, or that Blacks are at faults because they "should" have voted like Whites, or Latin@s, that really isn't the point.
Out of state money flooded this campaign and the airwaves were full of completely deceptive pro-8 advertising as a result. No on 8 didn't do as good a job of framing the issue and getting the message out there. But think about the shift in voting patterns from just eight years ago when Prop. 22 passed with 61% of the vote. Now we're looking at 52% passing Prop. 8, and that number is just going to continue to drop.
The legal case for making this a Constitutional revision rather than an amendment is fascinating, and has a real chance. There's a post up on the CA NOW blog giving breakdown of the legal challenges to the passage of Prop. 8 in California, the background and precedent on which they are based, and why they may be successful in preserving marriage equality.
@gex, Tony Comstock
I didn't mean it that way. I was thinking more along the lines of images of happy gay families discussing the issues, not people getting beat up. Some people (not me) need to be emotionally involved in the fight. I'm just thinking out loud. I don't have the answers.
But African-Americans were by far the most ardent supporters of Proposition 8. Are they not blameworthy?
_They_ aren't blameworthy because _they_ didn't do anything. 5,376,424 people (so far) voted for proposition 8. Some of them were black. Some of them weren't. Each one of them is _individually_ culpable for this. But that doesn't reflect morally on anyone else.
Do white men, most of whom supported prop 8, attain some merit based on the color of their skin and the fact that enough white women voted against the measure to make the overall white vote end up 51% against? This sort of thinking is absurd!
The only value of exit polls is in terms of stategery and savvy activists are going to want to pour over these things to learn how to run better campaigns in the future. But they have no moral significance because collective guilt is a ridiculous and, in fact, immoral idea.
Dear TNC,
This is my first time posting here, but I’ve been a faithful (read: obsessive) reader since I heard you on Tell Me More back in early September. I really appreciate the thoughtfulness of your blog entries and the great discussions that occur within the comments. I’ll add my voice to those who have already said that you definitely should keep this going.
Now to my comment. You said the following:
You seem to be making an argument for an understanding of human nature, which is an idea that, while I haven’t fully rejected it, I’ve become highly skeptical of as I’ve grown older . Understandings of the “natural” are just too deeply embedded in practices of brutal oppression. Beyond this, however, even if using history as our guide/teacher we can see that there has been a tendency for oppressed groups to become oppressors as a function of tribalism, factionalism, or whatever other words there are to describe this, we live in an age now that at least in principle rejects that type of behavior. The underlying principle of western democracy, and particularly this western democracy, is universalism, and more specifically, universal human rights. This universalism, as embodied by the phrase “All men are created equal”, was built into the understanding (an idealized one, yes) of how our country is supposed to operate. Wasn’t pointing out the contradiction between universalism and enslavement one of the signature arguments of the abolitionist movement. Wasn’t pointing out the contradiction between the principle of universalism and the legalized practice of segregation one of the key arguments of the civil rights movement? I think the answer to both questions is yes, and if so, then wouldn’t that seem to mean that all Black people embraced the universal ideal?
I agree with the assessment that it isn’t inherently or necessarily logical for there to be alliances between or among oppressed groups whose cultural experiences, generally speaking, don’t overlap. It is logical though within a culture that has as its ideals an understanding and appreciation of the universal, within a culture that has in its (short) history movements where people have tried to get the country closer and closer to that ideal.
To say that there is little historical precedent for minority groups, oppressed groups to become allies seems like a cop out to me. If you really believe in the ideals of this country, if you were a part of or are a beneficiary of a movement that harnessed the ideals of this country to get it to move forward, then you should know better. It's a matter of principle. Easier said than done, but still.
Most of this talk is nice but I don't hear many people saying what's important: "blacks" are monolithic. Isn't that a huge part of what we've been trying to accomplish these past hundred years. While communities often hold people with similar views and problems, the very word means a collection of individuals. As such, how do I inherit Dan's or anyone's ire just by the color of my skin? Hell I'm queer, but black, am I one of those "blacks" who hate? Many of the pro-Savage remarks here would seem to say as much.
Now there is only one organized entity in this Prop 8 battle which could receive some blame (though you wouldn't know it listening to Savage's nonsensical rambling) and that's the Mormon Church.
I don't mean to be terse but Savage is venting in a public space and so he should have written with more care.
I am Indian, and similarly, we have homophobes in our community in larger numbers than other groups. All I will say is this: it is noble to stand up for your own group; to stand up for others is divine.
We can all appreciate that we have different history, a million cultures within cultures. But to me, this issue simply boils down to love and compassion for your neighbor. We absolutely must stand up for each other, it is the only way to move forward in society.
The populations that voted for Prop 8 and against gay marriage are those populations with the biggest crises in the family in their own communities: African-Americans of a range of socio-economic classes, and working-class and rural whites. The rate of illegitimate birth maps pretty squarely onto the rate of support for Prop 8.
Different varieties of homophobia merit different analyses (as do, of course, different varieties of racism.) In the case of many African-American communities, I think it's clear that there is a crisis of masculinity that is propelling a lot of the homophobia, as well as the, ahem, clinging to religion (or at least religious rhetoric.) Just like rural, Christian whites, the volume of the rhetoric about traditional family values is an attempt to drown out a glaring failure to live them - and so the projection of that failure onto others (gays, atheists, "the elite".)
I'm sure more stuff that what I just wrote is happening. But it's still happening.
Personally I think the bullshit cuts both ways...
It is wrong to blame prop 8's passage on any group besides ignorant homophobes. Not morally wrong, either, but logically wrong. Being pissed at blacks for it, or saying blacks are hurting the gay community, is seeking to address a straw-man. The color of one's skin is --NEED I REMIND US?-- irrelevant. If all blacks had voted against it but only 20% of whites it still would have passed and no one would be gnashing their teeth talking about how the white community is a problem for gays. No, the talk would be, "damn ignorant bastards did it to us again."
That said, that is some serious bullshit on the part of black homophobes. I mean, come on. The same arguments were literally used against inter-racial marriage. The same "yuck" sentiments were expressed about ~black skin~ IN MANY OF THESE PEOPLE'S LIFETIMES. How could you even kiss a black man/woman? It's gross! That is some seriously ignorant pathetic shit to be that shallow and incapable of putting the shoe on the other foot. Time somebody said it and not just me.
"But that's not because I necessarily think black people are the crux of the problem, it's because I'm black and I want us to fucking represent."
I absolutely am not going to blame black people for this fiasco for the simple reason that there are not enough of you in California to matter politically on a practical level. You seem more concerned with a matter of conscience, but for me in my position your consciences are quite beside the point.
"But African-Americans were by far the most ardent supporters of Proposition 8. Are they not blameworthy?"
If we're categorizing ardent support, then the Mormon church that funded this entire fiasco would qualify as the most ardent supporters. "
Bingo. It wasn't the AA community that flooded the state with pro-Prop.8 money. It was the God-damned Mormons who did that.
When it comes to being despised as deviant by mainstream society, you would think that Mormons would remember that people in glass houses can't afford to throw stones.
What is needed is an voter initiative to deny state recognition of any mariage involving a member of the Mormon church. Put the shoe on the other foot. A simple sworn statement on the registration for a marriage license denying membership would be sufficient. Of course the state should have already subpoenaed and checked the membership roles so they can carry out checks, and for whatever other uses may arise. It is time to rescind the tolerance of this kind of activity that decent people have been showing.
Are black Californians "blameworthy"? According to their population size and voter turnout, they're, strategically, somewhat blameworthy. Are the 70% of black Californians who voted in favor of prop 8 indicative of a large(r) homophobia problem in that community? Absolutely.
I don't appreciate the generalization, but does have a grain of truth to it. He ought to have been more precise because it's not all of the black community but there is a crazy level of homophobia in my community.
This is purely anecdotal, but I was out last night with a group of five African-Americans, me included. Two gay men were seated at the table next to us and you would have thunk it had been two hood wearing KKK members. I'd never experienced such a strong anti-gay reaction and it shocked me. I'm from California. I went to school and lived in San Francisco before I moved abroad. I'm as socially liberal as they come. I was shocked to be with people who were so offended by someone simply due to their sexual orientation. Their reactions were completely inappropriate.
What happened last night is at the crux of Ta-nehisi's point. We're not anymore noble than any other group of people.
However, I think we ought to strive to keep in mind that discrimination of any sort limits us all. I've seen the debates and the offense some have when the struggle for gay rights is likened to the struggle for racial equality. There are similarities and to deny them is just, well, dishonest.
On a technical note, I voted absentee in California in this election, but my absentee ballot didn't have the local and state propositions on it. It only had the Federal seats that were up for grabs.
I think the No on Prop 8 machine needs to look at where the big money attack ads came from, look at the voter data and look at the laws that prevented me and others who would have voted no from doing so. Whatever law that said I was entitled to only a Federal ballot needs to change back. Essentially, I had no say in anything that impacts California, my home state. I've been abroad for awhile, but in previous elections I've been able to vote for or against California initiatives.
It's easy to scapegoat this issue and target the African American community in this instance, while failing to acknowledge the complexity involved here. When Savage refers to, "...the handful of racist gay white men out there." Excuse me, handful. You've got to be kidding me. If he doesn't see their complicity in all of this, then he hasn't done any critical self-examination on how much racism and classism are factors in all of this.
For far too long, LGBT organizations have argued using the example of the Civil Rights Act as a foundation to support gay marriage without doing the necessary homework to understand its implications, while also failing to do outreach to black gay and lesbian communities.
While many white gays and lesbians are trying to secure equality of their relationships through gay marriage, many black gays and lesbians are just struggling to even come to terms with, or even identify with being gay and out (and as a result, see gay marriage as a privilege, i.e. white privilege).
His actions are shameful and wholly misguided towards the weakest members of the gay community who do not have a voice.
I think the general treatment of the Palestinians for the last several decades refutes the idea that the Jews as a people have been ennobled by oppression. (Not that that makes 'em any worse than anyone else, of course.)
Two points.
First, Homophobia, like racism, and smoking, is *more of* a working-class affliction than a white collar affliction. Blacks, like latinos are disproportionately working class. Ergo, more of them are going to be smokers. And also homophobic.
Second, has anybody tried equating anti-gay marriage laws with anti-miscegenation laws? If you don't know what miscegenation is, you just elected one of its products.
I wonder if you pitched support for gay marriage that way, you might suddenly see light bulbs going on over the heads of blacks and hispanics, for whom 'Guess Who's Coming To Dinner?', might not be as quaint as it is for whites.
I also think the miscegenation parallel is apt, because most people below 40 probably don't even know what it is. And I think its probably a foregone conclusion the same thing will occur for gay marriage.
Finally, I am GLAD Obama wasn't more vocal in his support. Yes, he had a margin. On Wednesday. But if he had needed Florida to win (where the anti-gay marriage initiative passed by 62%), his support might have cost him the election.
quixote: The parallel is not only apt, but Mildred Loving made a rare public statement on the topic last year, clearly stating the parallel. "I believe all Americans, no matter their race, no matter their sex, no matter their sexual orientation, should have that same freedom to marry."
(And oh, if she could have lived to see Tuesday!)
I read both of your blogs constantly, and I've probably posted this on both of them in the past, so I apologize for repeating myself.
I agree with other posters that have said there needs to be some emotional appeal, some face to the inequality, and that there should be actual efforts made to reduce black homophobia.
A LOT of good work was done persuading the people of California not to vote yes on prop 8. It passed, but not by much.
But how much of what was done specifically spoke to black Californians? The Ellen wedding undoubtably helped overall, but where is the prominent African American lesbian wedding?
The trivial entertainment that the majority of Americans bathe in has a notable impact on how we understand and treat each other. Studies from a few years back showed that teens who watched shows like Will & Grace or Queer Eye had the same reduction in homophobia as teens who had a gay or lesbian friend.
But shows like Will & Grace are targeted at a nearly entirely white demographic.
Unfortunately, the most popular shows targeting an African American demographic have recently come from Kelsey Grammar, a white conservative.
Put a face to the inequality. Sit Beyonce down on chair next to an African American lesbian who is in love with her partner but cannot marry. Put it out as a PSA during reruns of Girlfriends. Make a mini documentary about the young gay black people who danced at the Warehouse nightclub the nights House music was invented. Introduce the issues of inequality for gay and lesbian people as an issue that affects African American gay and lesbian people, and do it through the easy-to-accept method of entertainment, just as it has been done with white people.
I do not buy for a second that black people are to blame for prop 8. Dan Savage's post is a step in the wrong direction.
But there is a way to take steps in the right direction, and the time to do it is now.
"70-30 pro constitutional discrimination of a minority group. I don't blame African Americans for Prop 8's passage. No, that took millions more votes than they could provide. But I'm sure as hell angry about those numbers. I just don't understand why this particular group is so different in their views than other groups are. This is hostile"
We don't understand a lot about black people in this country because we have not been important enough to understand until we started burning down cities. Maybe after 5 centuries of being called a boy, we have placed being a man in a higher regard than history supports.
That said, as a straight AA male, I sent emails to an Obama listserve (against policy) asking everyone to vote no on 8. I sent the same email to friends and family here in CA - and you can thank Andrew Sullivan since he suggested we do so.
Anyhow, my brother is gay but not out. I kinda figured it out over my lifetime since he always had roomates who were rather good looking guys - mostly white. He's never admitted it even as I wish his partner well every time we talk.
Without his support, I would not have had the money or even the desire to get through college. He didn't have that opportunity since he was raised before the end of American apartheid but he made sure I did. He's brilliant and I love him to no end. He had me listening to Zappa and Fleetwood Mac while everyone else in the house was stuck on MoTown.
One set of lyrics from Zappa that I'll never forget: "Watch out where the Huskies go, and don't you eat that yellow snow"
The argument blaming us for prop 8 is a mound of Zappa's yellow snow. Eat all you like but it's still piss.
Reginald Avery Wilkins, Ph.D.
I've been banging my head against this wall for the past 48 hours, and I'm way over the "Blame the Black People" meme.
Prop 8 didn't pass because of Obama's tepid opposition.
Prop 8 didn't pass because of black voters, who make up 6% of the state's population. The 70% is based on a single exit poll with roughly 2,250 voters total. I sat down Tuesday night and crunched the numbers, and found that 171 of the black voters polled voted Yes on 8. 702 of the white voters polled voted Yes. The percentages of voters over 65 voting yes was less than the yes percentage for black voters--but there were more older voters as a group than black voters.
Prop 8 was put on the ballot by white evangelicals, and was bankrolled by rich white folks like Howard Amundson and the mother of Erik Prince, who owns Blackwater--and, of course, that organization noted for being so racially diverse, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
Prop 8 passed because the Yes on 8 people ran a strong grassroots campaign, and because the No on 8 side was disorganized, timid, reactionary instead of being proactive, and complacent. I'm certainly guilty of the latter; when the early polls showed 8 down by 9 points, I assumed that people had seen through the stupid and realized that the 18,000 of us who'd already gotten married hadn't caused the world to end. Unfortunately, the No on 8 forces also made that assumption, and it wasn't until the Mormon-funded ads started running that people realized it wasn't going to be that easy.
So what was the response? To release ads that never mentioned the words "gay” or "lesbian", and hardly ever featured actual same-sex couples (and of course, everyone in the ads was white). Volunteers were told not to mention our children or our families, because the "protect the children" frame had already been claimed by the other side--even when they were using images of children in their ads without the parents' permission! There was almost no outreach to the Black and Latino communities until the last two weeks before the election; volunteers have said that heavily Mexican neighborhoods were left off the phone lists because there were no Spanish-speaking phone bankers. In California! While everyone worried that the black turnout for Obama would lead to more Yes votes, no one put out advertising quoting Obama saying Prop 8 was "divisive and unnecessary" until *after* the ones quoting him saying "marriage is between a man and a woman" went out.
Yes, there's homophobia in the black community. But instead of trying to engage, the No on 8 campaign effectively wrote off the black voters of California. The white LGBTs who are wondering why black folks didn't stand in solidarity need to look in the mirror, at their own organizations that rarely have more than a token POC in leadership positions, that perpetuate racism by supporting people like Shirley Q. Liquor (and viciously attacking black LGBTs who point out said racism). Andrew Sullivan and Dan Savage need to realize that solidarity is a two-way street, and that if you want black folks to see your invocation of the Civil Rights Movement as anything other than cultural appropriation, you need to engage on issues like immigration, health care, jobs, and housing instead of claiming the legacy of MLK while clinging stubbornly to your white male privilege.
ExpatJane: You should complain to the Sec. of State. My wife and I vote permanent absentee, and every single state and county ballot measure was on the ballot, which was 2 sheets of paper and took 2 stamps.
"Put a face to the inequality. Sit Beyonce down on chair next to an African American lesbian who is in love with her partner but cannot marry. Put it out as a PSA during reruns of Girlfriends. Make a mini documentary about the young gay black people who danced at the Warehouse nightclub the nights House music was invented. Introduce the issues of inequality for gay and lesbian people as an issue that affects African American gay and lesbian people, and do it through the easy-to-accept method of entertainment, just as it has been done with white people."
Early last Summer I got an exicted call from the programing director of the Mid-Atlantic Black Film Festival, which is held at the historic Attuck Theater in Norfolk VA. She was calling to let me know that it wasn't the official announcement, but she was programing our film ASHLEY AND KISHA as a part of the of the 2007 festival. Of course I was thrilled.
A month later, as the festival was drawing close, I heard from her again, this time not so excited. In fact, she was embarrassed. Her board of directors had nixxed the idea of screening our film. Of course I was disappointed.
Now granted, ASHELY & KISHA, while presenting a positive tende depiction of the reality AA lesbians, does so in a challenging way, and the fact that the board ultimately lost their nerve is not surprising. But the point is, producers can't make movies if they can't get them in front of audiences. ASHLEY & KISHA was ultimately accepted at several LGBT festival, and even at a film festival in Australia that was not LGBT or minority orient. But it was rejected from every single AA film festival we entered it into. (Six in total, if memory serves.)
As a producer, the only conclusion I can draw is that while gays/lesbians might be interested in movies about AA lesbians, it's a lot hard to get AA markets interested on films about AA lesbians.
All of your suggestions are good one, but who's going to make them? Who's going to pay for it? And once that hurdle is crossed, where are these docos going to show?
Not much to add here except that some people still see LGT people as deviants instead of as people. I know a few of these people and they do not view the rights of the gay community as a civil rights issue because they see Homosexuality as a choice instead of something that is biologically determined. The thinking among those who oppose gay marriage is that people choose to be gay and the government has a right to regulate the marriages of those who choose to be gay just like the government has the right to tax smokers.
I think a little bit of education is in order. Once people realize that for most of us sexual preference is not a choice but something that is determined by biology Gay Marriage becomes a civil rights issue.
"I think a little bit of education is in order. Once people realize that for most of us sexual preference is not a choice but something that is determined by biology Gay Marriage becomes a civil rights issue."
A civil rights issue? You mean like religion? Or speech?
You're right on one thing at least: a bit of education is in order.
Did I say something ignorant? I didn't say that I agreed with those who deny the rights of one group of people to marry another.
let me clarify what I mean by a civil rights issue.
Both Civil Law and the constitution guaruntee due process. Contained within the understanding of due process is the idea of the contractual relationship. Marriage is a contract between two people at its basic most fundamental level. Refusing to allow those who follow an alternative lifestyle to marry is a denial of a contractual relationship that is guarunteed under the due process clause of the 14th amendment. This restriction of contract is a denial of a person's civil rights at it's most basic and fundamental level. Our lesbian and gay friends aren't asking to change the world upside down they are simply asking for a basic right that guaruntees them the same contractual privledges that I as a straight man can enter into with a woman 5 minutes after I meet her. Essentially it is discrimination at its most basic level.
Am I Ignorant to believe this?
They can blame black folks all they want, I'm hetero/black and I voted no because I think it's bullshit to deny equal rights to all citizens. However, here in L.A., there didn't seem to be much push outside of W. Hollywood. Check the LA times county by county maps and see that Prop 8 got tons of support in rural counties where it won by huge margins. In fact, with the exception of the counties bordering the Bay Area, it didn't do well statewide. So where was the get out the vote against this thing? Especially given the "raging" homophobia that is so pervasive in the black community? You can't blame 6.7% of the population for this, assuming that everyone that could voted. Blame your own shoddily run campaign and figure out how we can move beyond this to protect the rights of all citizens.
Mr. Comstock,
you wrote: You're right on one thing at least: a bit of education is in order
Please explain to me what I don't understand. I would hate to come across as an arogant jackass.
Although I read TNC daily, I have never posted a comment before now and I am only doing so to give voice to why the mainstream LGBT community has lost my active support.
I live in AZ, and voters here passed Prop. 102 which adds an amendment to the state constitution defining marriage as a union between one man and one woman. That being said, let's get real here...
While it may be popular right now to place blame on so called "African-American homophobes", for the passage of Prop. 8; the truth is that the mainstream LGBT community is very insular, very white and no less prone to racial bigotry than any other segment of society. The backers of Prop. 8 in CA and Prop. 102 here in AZ did one thing that the mainstream LGBT community has historically refused to do and that is actually go out, in mass, to minority communities in order to get their message out. As skewed, deceptive and wrong as that message is, it doesn't negate the fact that they, unlike the mainstream LGBT, did what they felt was necessary and took nothing for granted.
Mr. Savage and those who share his opinion about it being "the blacks" fault, I respectfully ask a few questions, What's the point in trying to diminish the level of overt and covert racial bigotry in the mainstream LGBT community? Was there even the slightest attempt to reach out to the various minority LGBT community organizations to help get the message out? And if not, then how many foot hours did you log going into minority communities to get your message out? How many calls to minority voters did you make? I know which side kept ringing my doorbell and every other doorbell in the racially mixed neighborhood I live in. I know which side kept calling me with their message. I know which side, instead of wasting time placing artificial blame and wallowing in misplaced anger, learned from their mistakes (a similar measure was narrowly defeated here a few years ago) and got proactive. But instead of learning from what happened and making the necessary changes to their failed tactics, the mainstream LGBT community has chosen to play the blame game, spew hatred towards and threaten recrimination against blacks in general, which will unfortunately lead to more folks such as myself, ( an agnostic, black woman, wife, mother, sister/niece of a black lesbian, godmother to the children of a gay couple and voter who voted no both times the anti-gay marriage ban appeared on the ballot) simply walk away from the issue. I'm done. While I will not ever vote for a ban on gay marriage I will never again vote in support of gay marriage.
So, to Mr. Savage and those who share his opinion about it being " the blacks" fault, I say if it makes you feel better then be as pissed as you choose to be but maybe it's yourself you should be most pissed at.
Keep blaming blacks and LDS Mormon won't help guys. Accept your fate. That's it. The voters have spoken. Your 'No' campaign with Diane Feinstein, Arnold, Ellen Degenere is no match for our God Jesus Christ.
@Sorn, I don't *think* that Tony Comstock meant to be snarky toward you, though at first reading I got the same impression you did. Since I can't really see anything about what you wrote that was really wrong, I'm pretty sure any snark was directed at the situation, not you personally.
@ Nato. Thanks. The written word is sometimes a horrible meadium for conveying any type of nuance, making writers like Oscar Wilde or Jonathan Swift even more of a treasure. Speaking of we've come a long way since Wilde. Being gay used to be considered a crime now gay people are demanding (and rightly so) the right to get married. To put this in perspective being African-American was never a crime that someone could go to jail for. Sodomy (to use the old phrase) used to be just such a thing.
Re: then you understand that no group, anywhere, ever was ennobled by oppression.
This is gravely contrary to the entire Christian message, and to natural reason. Suffering can be redemptive, as it was in the case of Christ. "Yet learned he obedience through the things which he suffered, and was made perfect." Indeed, suffering is necessary for us to become closer to the divine.
To try to argue that suffering is inherently bad and that we should have a world without suffering, is to launch a direct frontal attack on the essence of the Christian faith.
Sorn,
Sodomy isn't a crime any more, and it shouldn't be. I'm fine with civil unions, and I could maybe even be persuaded to accept gay marriage in a secular sense on the theory that it would promote monogamy among gay people. I do believe though, that as a matter of morality that homosexual acts will always remain a sin, and that a homosexual marriage, however valid in the state's eyes, can never be valid or morally acceptable in the eyes of Christ, His Church, or any constitutionally Christian country (which the United States is of course not).
There is not much I am sure of, plenaid, but I am sure of this:
1. your religion has become distorted and spiteful, and
2. this issue will never, ever go away. Every year, we will be fighting to give gays and lesbians true equality. This will not be settled "once and for all" any more than the Dred Scott decision settled anything once and for all.
This is a matter of basic human decency at this point. I have seen too many gays and lesbians - particularly those in a relationship with someone foreign-born - suffer because your thick-pated, insular religious zealotry blinds you to the real consequences of your position. I know we will never convince you. But we will beat you, eventually.
And, as an educator, I can assure you: your children will hear all about it.
My brother is a writer who got married in California last week. I suspect that had Obama come out and made a consistent appeal, it might have made a difference, but he played it safe.
The poster above who wrote that gays and lesbians need to do the Long March thing hit the nail on the head.
Someone need take a good look at California turnout; San Fransisco had 50%, the State of California had 60%. Obama got 6.37M votes and Kerry got 6.75M in 2004. Also, three large counties in Southern California accounted for about 75% of the margin of victory; these are Orange, Riverside and San Bernardino. LA county was about 50/50. Also, the NO campaign got a late start, and the initial ads were poor. Live in Northern California and think that the passage was due to poor preparation and execution by the NO camp, except for silly YES ads little public attention. The last round of NO ads were very good. A noticeable absence of the Gay and Lesbian communities was very apparent.
Suspect that three factors: overall poor turnout in critical areas, excessive margin by YES voters in four Southern California counties, and the late start for the NO folks are the basic reasons for the NO campaign's failure. On this one at its core, the NO folks simply blew it! Suspect that lack of awareness was a big factor in Prop 8 success, and this issue was hidden behind others that were more significant to the wider public. The crap about Black folks and so on is a bunch of bull!
Being a whitebread straight Canadian, I don't have much to say. You all seem to be familiar with Savage's writing style and are giving him the requisite molecule of salt. I don't doubt that the dynamics within the LGBT community are extremely complex, since so far as I can tell, being LGBT is something that's largely independent of race, culture, or class: 100 LGBT people are likely to be a demographic cross section of the whole country, republicans, racists, and all, especially to begin with. In a certain sense, I can't begin to speak to the details of the issues involved.
But two things strike me, as an outsider:
1) The people you voted against on Tuesday would be delighted to see this kind of finger-pointing.
2) The man you elected on Tuesday may yet turn out to be a complacent fan of the status quo, a consensus builder, and someone who will make short term tactical sacrifices in service of a bigger prize. He could be another Clinton. Anything's possible.
But I don't think he thinks his job is done now that he's president, and I simply don't believe for a second that he intends to leave things as they are on this front. The change that's coming is demographic, and generational, and I think the forces that want to turn your country into a theocracy will lose, and lose hard, and screaming. I think the man you elected on Tuesday will do what he can to grease those skids. And if his campaign is any guide, he will do it without even seeming to lift a finger.
So, don't despair, America. It just means you're not done yet.
Black heterosexuals continue to think homosexuality is only a white thing which gives ammunition to attack gay people. Let me clue you in, it isn't. Gay people come from all ethnic groups and live everywhere. Got that!
This meme that gay people (remember most blacks think homosexuality is only a white thing) are just as or more racist than heterosexuals is bogus and was started by black heterosexuals to avoid any culpability of perpetuating bigotry. This just adds to the mythology heterosexuals (of all ethnic backgrounds) have imposed upon gay people. Let me clue you in on some realities. Gay people are more likely to be in a relationship with someone of a different race than heterosexuals. Gay people are more likely to be in a relationship with someone of a different national origin than heterosexuals. Gay people are more likely to adopt children of a different race than heterosexuals. Gay people are more likely to live near people of different races than heterosexuals. Gay people are more likely to attend church service with people of different races than heterosexuals. The majority of gay people voted for Barack Obama, Jesse Jackson, Deval Patrick, Ron Oden and a whole slew of black politicians. Only once have black Americans elected a gay person to office higher than city council. Those facts fly in the face with what some want to impose on gay people.
And to the black gays who constantly whine about "the gay establishment." You never even try. You don't volunteer for any gay organization regardless of what the racial composition is. Gay organizations including those headed by blacks are desperate for help. Where are the black gays? Nowhere to be seen or heard.
Zorn,
You wrote this:
"Once people realize that for most of us sexual preference is not a choice but something that is determined by biology Gay Marriage becomes a civil rights issue."
Whether or not sexual preference is a choice, the right to marry the person we love is a civil rights issue.
If there is antagonism (from blacks and others) towards calling gay marriage a "civil rights issue", perhaps it is because a person's skin color cannot be changed and a cannot be hidden.
Yes, I've heard the arguments and theories that homosexuality is innate. I tend to believe that sexual orientation has a biological component beyond a person's control
But the simple fact is engaging in sexual behavior is a choice, and certainly marriage is a choice. Ms. Jeter did not choose to be born black and Mr. Loving did not choose to be born white, but they did choose to marry one another; and each of them could have chosen to marry on their own side of the boundaries proscribed by Virginia law.
But the fact that what sexual behaviors we chose to practice and with whom is a choice is no justification for the denial of equal protection under the law. Asking a man who conscience tells him that he should have sex with and marry another man that he has to join with a woman to partake in the benefits and responsibilities of marriage is not like telling a black baptist woman she has to sit at the back of the bus; it's like telling her she has to convert to judaism or she can't ride the bus at all.
I suppose we could have an discussion as to whether discrimination on the basis of things a person can change or hide (like religion or political ideology or country of origin) is more or less corrosive to civil society than discrimination on the basis of skin color, which can be neither changed nor hidden. That's not a discussion I'm not especially interest to have, except to say that at the height of the Cold War, the Soviet Union was arguably a more equitable society than the US. Equality is not the only, and perhaps not even the best measure of a country's freedom.
What I am interested in is seeing people who are interest in equality, liberty and justice move beyond what one commenter called a "victimhood pissing contest." In the end, it doesn't matter why the state has it's boot on your neck; it doesn't matter whether it's because you're the "wrong" color, the "wrong" religion, hold the "wrong" political beliefs, or make the "wrong" movies. Inequality and injustice hurts all of us, victim and oppressor alike.
Well Jackson after reading yours and Savage's rant against Afro- American homophobia I have a question for the mainstream GLBT community and it's leadership. Were you people in the Black Churches, social clubs, Frats and Soros, Black Christian Conferences or talking with young Black People and explaining to those auidences why this was a Civil Rights Issue and countering the Right Wing evangelical christian propgandists because they do go into those areas
I would say no because the White Gay leadership like the GOP never engages Black Folks on any level unless it's superficial. You pick token blacks who for the most part are BICO just like the right picks Shelby Steele, Thomas Sowell and the Reverend "Jesse Lee" Peterson. Your leadership never picks a Black Person who knows how to engage the average African- American. You want blacks who know their place in the pecking order so you get what you deserve when get want black memebers who won't challenge the status quo.
You can't complain about an amendment failing when you never did the hard work to engage the average Afro- American Jackson. As a hetrosexual A.A I never saw anyone from your group in Florida where there was also a similar ballot measure and the fact that you are Fucking a Black or Latino guy/girl does not cut it, benign engagment with the average A.A. is the reason both ballot measures lost and it wouldn't have mattered if Obama had went into a black church or Dr. King came back from the dead.
Jackson said:
"And to the black gays who constantly whine about "the gay establishment." You never even try. You don't volunteer for any gay organization regardless of what the racial composition is. Gay organizations including those headed by blacks are desperate for help. Where are the black gays? Nowhere to be seen or heard."
I understand your anger, but it doesn't help in answering the questions of how this happened, which will tell us how to ensure it does not happen again.
A. I know a handful of black gay people, most of whom are not out, or even considering coming out. What they deal with from the black community is a tremendous amount of prejudice and outright shunning- not just in rural or uneducated parts of the country, but everywhere from NYC to Atlanta and beyond.
What they deal with from the white gay community (what little they've shared with me anyway) is similar to the way white women treated black women in the suffrage movement- they don't want to be associated with them, because it complicates the issue and hurts their image. I don't assume that those few experiences mean that this is the way it ALWAYS is, but the more I read on this topic from black LGBT folks, the more of a schism there appears to be- just like the existing rift between white feminists and black women. The above comment is just another affirmation of the problem that clearly exists- whatever the cause may be (I am in no position to judge whether it is black gay apathy or a disconnect with the gay establishment).
B. I understand why you are angry with the black community for its homophobia. I am black and straight and undeniably angry, frustrated and disappointed in my community on this too. That said, I haven't read any information about what appears to be the main failure of the No on 8 campaign- where was the outreach?
I have been reading a lot about this on the 'net for the past couple of days, trying to understand how this happened (all I can do here- I am not from CA or in CA), and I have yet to see anyone who worked on the campaign speak to that point- where was the outreach to the persuadable, as opposed to the already persuaded? The other side most certainly did the outreach, spreading their lies in all communities.
C. Attempts at educating the black community on gay issues are far from strong or prevalent. The black gay community gets scapegoated for the rise of AIDS in the black community (it's all the fault of down-low brothas is the constant refrain), and THAT is the face of gay black America for most of our community, period. Maybe education on this exists, and I've never seen it, or it gets blocked by those with the power to disseminate the messages of tolerance, but if that is the case we have to work to end that situation.
The christian church is one of the backbones of the black community. Some of them are apparently open to gays and lesbians in the congregation. Many are not. I have interacted with many deeply Christian black Americans, and a disturbingly large majority at one point or another demonstrated that they were also deeply homophobic.
The black Church has a huge, huge lead on us in indoctrinating the black community to hate and fear gays, and little is done to combat it. It is institutionalized and it is strong. Fighting black homophobia is jut like fighting homophobia in general, it begins with education, conversation and outreach, and I don't think I've ever seen that happen effectively.
Maybe I haven't done enough to look for it and support it myself. Going forward, I will do what I can personally to change that and support those efforts- with money or time- because I think that civil rights for EVERYONE are important. I have taken it for granted that people in "liberal" areas like Cali would, when push came to shove, agreed with me. That proved not to be the case. It has caused me to really take this question to heart (and resulted in this overlong post).
All people with brown skin are not to blame for the passage of Yes on 8, and it seems that most folks are aware of that. That said, progressive black people who do care about civil rights issues for all need to really pay attention to the homophobia in the black community and personally figure out how we can work to eradicate it. It is unacceptable, regardless of how historic and deep-seated it is. Those of us who are insiders, we know our people, and we are the ones best placed to begin this fight. I know that I am going to give serious thought and effort into finding out how, because seeing what is happening here breaks my heart. Divide and conquer, the oldest story in the book.
Losing the vote in CA really hurts, but I don't think we should let the discussion devolve into casting blame on one single group or one single factor that made all the difference. There were a lot of factors, and plenty of blame to go around.
Was the effort on the part of the "No on Prop 8" people lame as hell? Yes.
Is there a homophobia problem in the black community? Yes.
Is the LDS church crossing the line with its political activities? Maybe.
Is the victimhood pissing contest pointless? Absolutely.
Those of us who believe that same-sex couples and their kids and families should have the same protections under the law that the families of heterosexual couples do have our work cut out for us. For those of us who care, we have to work on all these problems. I think Ta-Nehisi deserves kudos for taking the issue of homophobia head-on.
Remember, we are fighting to protect our families and our kids. This is the message that never seemed to be articulated by No On Prop 8.
I have learned a lot from these posts. Thank you.
Eric, would you be willing to do that rant if it were about segregation? If African-American homophobia is as bad as it seems, outreach could be as fraught as risky as the NAACP trying to outreach to the Klan. Lest you consider that analogy overwrought, consider just what the frequency of hate-crimes against gays and lesbians is.
And as described upthread, outreach requires someone to let you in the doors.
In the end, you are right: real outreach needs to begin with leaders, however. Ministers need to invite gay and lesbian speakers - community workers need to actively and visibly sponsor that outreach. Because this could be the basis of a big wedge in California, one that socially liberal Republicans (like the Governor) could well exploit. This may be a huge gift to the Log Cabin types.
"Keep blaming blacks and LDS Mormon won't help guys. Accept your fate. That's it. The voters have spoken. Your 'No' campaign with Diane Feinstein, Arnold, Ellen Degenere is no match for our God Jesus Christ. "
Whom you clearly know nothing about, heathen.
Eric Daniels, the NO on Prop 2 campaign collected very little money. They couldn't afford to do outreach anywhere.
T Harris I appreciate your thoughts but I am not holding my breath. All issues regarding gay people are placed on the backburner unless heterosexuals want to deny rights.
Lemmy Caution here is my take on the segregation vs. Gay argument, it's a non- starter because Gays for the most did not have their lives dictated to where they could shop, live, eat, attend schools or have land deeds or clubs exclude them because of the color of their skin. There is no comparsion considering many white gays had their own racially segregated social clubs,beaches and neighborhoods prior to the fair housing act in 1968. And 12 years of so-called intergrated schooling in the 70's and 80's I agree with W.E.B. Du Bois and Zora Neal Hurston on their oppostion to Brown v. Board.
Jackson, after California struck down that law forbiding discrimination in gay marriage, those GBLT advocates should have known the evangelicals were going to mount a counterattack and with the many gay hollywood celeberities they should have raised money across the country to defeat these types of ballot measures.But doing the grassroots work does not take millions of dollars, it takes time and effort on the ground.
So don't blame Black Evangelicials for failing to vote that measure when the mainstream white gay community has utter contempt and hatred for Afro- Americans unless they are a Mapplethorpe - like sexual "mandingo butt and big black dick "fetish or seeing the "Disco Mamas at some 70's disco revival or the Shirley Q.Liquor shows where white gays can revel in their racial angst. White Evangelicals do what the leadership of GLBT communities won't do and that is the 'grunt work' and engaging Black People of faith on their turf.
But the GLBT leadership were so quick to put grassroots and celebrity pressure on Disney, ABC, Shonda Rimes and the producers and advertisers to get rid of Isiah Washington but you couldn't muster the same for something much more important your human rights.
Eric, what you wrote speaks to a point that I made on another thread: a refusal to see analogous experiences for their similarities, rather than their differences, is a kind of insular obstinacy.
Gays and lesbians did not have the African American experience, it is true, unless they happened, as many are, to be African American. But straight African Americans had their families (at least since the end of slavery), their religions, their communities. Coming out as gay risks all that - the possibility of being estranged from every social bond into which you were born is a pressing reality for gays and lesbians, one generally unknown by ethnic minorities (unless, of course, they're gay.)
It could be argued that this is a more extreme and brutal form of discrimination and oppression that white domination is. Or it could be argued that it isn't. But the dismissal, out of hand, of the comparison, earns you a place in the economy of derision. And your screed about LBGT "racism" - based on the simple existence of some fetishism among a handful of gay men - shows seriously disordered thinking.
White evangelicals do share the whole "Jesus" thing with the black churches, and that's not a surprise. I think we have to stop being romantic and unrealistic about the actual roles played by those churches, and start to push for real secularism.
My best friend from high school and best man in my wedding who is a straight, liberal White male just emailed me, probably since I implored him to vote no:
"We also voted yes on prop. 8 If two men can get married, why not three men, or two women and a cat, or why not allow a man to have four wives? If the standard definition of marriage can be changed with a 51% vote, the institution doesn't have much meaning anymore."
What if 47% of whites who support 8 do so because they agree that gay marriage is like "allow[ing] marriage between two women and a cat" while 70% of Blacks do so because they retain some Baptist social frame that suggests that the Bible is not open to interpretation when it comes to marriage.
I believe a strong case can be made that a preference based objection to gay marriage is worse than one based on scripture, and that focusing on the 70% vs 47% might make for easy scapegoating but substitute for the real analysis that builds social justice. There is too much we still don't know about one another.
I think the real problem folks is that there should be no right to take away our rights, especially funded by a racist church from another state.
Let's only blame the people who voted yes. There were even mormons(though small) who advocated no on prop 8.
To be clear, Dan Savage certainly holds the mormons most responsible for prop 8; there is little room for ambiguity on that if you read everything he writes about. I think his problem, which seems justified to me, is NOT that a race is responsible for this, or should be blamed, but rather that there does not seem to be a huge concerted effort to rectify this within the black community. This is in contrast to the LGBT community which is very adament about taking responsibility for its racism--Dan alludes to this as well. There is no doubt that more white people voted for prop 8. But the sheer proportion of black people who voted for prop 8 should be upsetting to both the black and queer communities--a sentiment TNC seems to share with Dan.
There's also an undertone to Dan's post which I think is worth noting. Often white people within the LGBT community or its sympathizers, will focus mostly on white homophobia and excuse or downplay homophobic leaders within black or latino communities. This SHOULD be seen as racist and patronizing. While dan is probably overstating his point (and trying to piss people off in the process as he likes to do), I think there is a degree to which he is importantly avoiding this trap, and holding the black community to the standards he would hold any other.
I am upset about this erroneous finger pointing at African-Americans regarding Proposition 8. Why are you so quick to believe whatever you hear? If someone told me 70 percent of gay people voted against Obama my first thought would be, excuse me Jesus, that is crap! I don't believe it! This political year was fraught with right wing lies. Bear that in mind.
"Religious organizations that support Proposition 8 include the Roman Catholic Church], Knights of Columbus, Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) a group of Evangelical Christians led by Jim Garlow and Miles McPherson, American Family Association, Focus on the Family[and the National Organization for Marriage Rick Warren, pastor of Saddleback Church, California's largest, has also endorsed the measure. The Bishops of the California Catholic Conference released a statement supporting the proposition. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) has publicly supported the proposition and encouraged their membership to support it, by asking its members to donate money and volunteer time. The First Presidency of the church announced its support for Proposition 8 in a letter read in every congregation. Latter-day Saints have provided a significant source for financial donations in support of the proposition, both inside and outside the State of California. About 45% of out-of-state contributions to Protect Marriage.com has come from Utah, over three times more than any other state."
Still, even though gays were fighting to preserve a basic right, it was the anti-equality side in California that seemed to have the most fervor. A symbolic low point for the gay side came on Oct. 13, when the Sacramento Bee ran a remarkable story about Rick and Pam Patterson, a Mormon couple of modest means - he drives a 10-year-old Honda Civic, she raises their five boys - who had withdrawn $50,000 from their savings account and given it to the pro-8 campaign. "It was a decision we made very prayerfully," Pam Patterson, 48, told the Bee's Jennifer Garza. "Was it an easy decision? No. But it was a clear decision, one that had so much potential to benefit our children and their children.”
This is your real enemy. Don't trust exit polls. I think they are pitting one group against the other. African-Americans are less than 7% of the state population, do the math. Many more Whites voted and they put this over, not Blacks. What are the total numbers of each group that voted. No one has said. I know someone who watches C-Span and they said most Blacks did not even address the question at all. And they do not have the money to fund a tens of millions of dollars Proposition 8 campaign. Note that they also targeted affirmative action for eradication in another state.
I cannot believe that these groups get a pass and Blacks are being targeted for the blame game. Rather than be upset at the phantom African-American menace, fight like hell.
How many gay activists supported the civil rights movement in the 1960’s? Then how do you automatically expect support in return? Have you asked Blacks to support you or did you just assume?
No one gave Obama anything and they will not give gays anything either. Obama stands on the shoulders of a lot of brave people who gave their lives for him to stand on that podium last night.
Never trust exits polls because in all my years of life, no one has ever been seen at a polling place asking anyone anything when they left.
Gay marriage infringes on my right to religious freedom -- regardless whether it's a semantics issue or not.
EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE CIVIL UNION LICENSES WITH ALL RIGHTS ISSUED BY THEIR STATES with the title of marriage should be issue by churches.
EVERYONE - straight, gay, bi, whatever - quit screwing with the semantics/religious weight of marriage and SEPARATE FRICKEN CHURCH AND STATE LIKE WE'RE SUPPOSED TO!!!
This bullsh#t.
Just because as a matter of relioun I do NOT recognize gays being married does not mean they should not enjoy all the rights of straight partners.
So gays, please stop bullying me on my religous position on marriage and let's separate church and state together.
You gays are sh@tting on the multiracial segment of your sexual preference's population and ruining an opportunity to make everyone equal under the name civil unions.
Until then? Screw you guys and your misguided, sanctimonious outbursts about marriage, blacks, whoever.
We've got a WHOLE FAILING ECONOMY to fix and too many folks protecting the religious semantics of marriage who will work with you for equal partnering rights.
I will NOT change relegate the definition of my religious ceremony of marriage to the state.
I will work like crazy to make sure all partners have equal property, tax benefit rights and whatever else - but lay off my religious freedoms to be a part of a church that sees marriage between two humans who are meant to bear children together. I'm sick of gays who don't get it and heteros like Britney who shame the institution.
And no, smart asses, I did not vote for McCain. I am a religious moderate left-leaning independent who typically votes Dem and never ever supported the nutball religious right.
But I'm sorry the gays who don't get this are shooting themselves in the foot over and over again. I don't want to be bullied by YOU either.
Dan Savage is a fascist, and a racist to boot, and he's not alone. Frankly, I need to hear some discussion on why the gay community has sat in silence regarding Log Cabin republicans, voting for huge tax cuts, and not giving a fig about the fact that they are also supporting candidates who do real harm to the glbt community, as well as to poor and struggling Americans (last I looked, glbt people are not all at the top rungs of the economic ladder). I wonder why there's only a demand for conforming to some gay standard of ideological purity when you're talking about non glbt people?
Sorry, but all I have seen are a bunch of spoiled, rich, white people playing at plantation master, and frankly, they need to be shown that they not only don't hold the whip, but it's not going to be tolerated. If you think that the majority of Americans are quivering in their boots that gays might put pressure on movie and tv studios, you're deluding yourselves. No one cares.
What you should consider, is cracking open a history book, and read up on fascistic gays, like Ernst Rohm, he's the one that brought Hitler to power, thinking he would bring about some pathetic dream of a homosexual utopia.. the history books show that Rohm, and many other homosexuals ended up being subjected to the same suffering he didn't mind imposing on Jews and others. You ought to consider that you're allowing your hatred, racism and ignorance to blind you to the reality that you're repeating what Rohm did, and ultimately, it won't lead to what you think it will.
Jackson, the "no on prop 8" side collected much more money than the "yes on prop 8" side, in fact, they collected about 60% or more of the total contributions given for that issue. What's more, they took a quarter million from PG&E, a vile corporate interest that has poisoned innocent Californians, and ripped off the ratepayers in the state. The "no on prop 8" side gleaned the largest individual contributions, whereas the "yes" side received smaller increments, from more people.
You can't lie your way out of this, in fact the "no on prop 8" side framed the issue dishonestly, it lied rather than addressing the legitimate concerns that voters had. Your side acted violently prior to the vote, and has descended into all out fascism since the election, and you've shown yourselves to be the epitome of all the negative stereotypes that people like myself defended glbt people against for decades. You are guilty of not respecting the individual rights and freedoms of those you oppose, you rationalize blacklisting, and persecution, threats and violence, and appear unstable and unsavory.. I think what you'll find is that in future, less people, rather than more, will support your issues, if this fascistic, racist, religiophobic behavior continues.
It's none of your business if people have religious beliefs, you don't have any right to attempt to persecute and erode their rights, in fact their right to freely express and practice their faith is enshrined in the first amendment.. and unless you are lacking in any brain activity, you should be aware that when you start eroding their rights, you will find that you don't have any yourself.
But go ahead and keep being an ignorant dupe for the Log Cabin republican elites, they are using you and selling you out every bit as much as Bush has. To them, you're just a drone to use and cast aside.