Now I ask you--maybe they're a bit too clean, but Steve Young and Jerry Rice or Troy Aikman and Michael Irvin?Look, don't ever let anyone tell you that a quaterback who wins three Super Bowls in four years, who goes to four straight championship games and wins three of them--one under Barry Switzer, no less--is overrated. Aikman was a great, great quarterback--the anti-Favre. Like Favre, he was a winner, but he didn't do the spectacular shit that Favre did. Of course he also didn't do the stupid shit either. He was just incredibly accurate. Irvin is the most physical receiver I've ever seen play the game. He also is one of the most competitive and hardest working athletes I've seen. He played reciever the way people play basketball--he'd catch passes with no separation at all, essentially boxing cornerbacks out. It was fucking incredible.
But let's be real here--Steve Young was basically the perfect quarterback. He could run like Mike Vick (almost) and throw like Peyton Manning. Jerry Rice is the greatest receiver to ever play the game. There simply is no comparison. I'm a lifetime Cowboys fan--but it's a weak-ass fan who goes all jingoist in spite of the actual facts. This following clip isn't a Rice to Young hookup, but it's what I'll always remember about Young. It is, to my mind, one of the greatest plays ever--look at T.O just laying there, crying like a baby. Listen to Summerall and Madden. This is why I love football. In another time, with a team that invested in him, Young would have been the greatest ever.
The Beautiful Struggle: A Father, Two Sons, and an Unlikely Road to Manhood 
I agree completely on that comparison. Too easy. I think a more interesting question, though, is what young tandem in today's NFL has the best chance to develop into a Young/Rice, Aikman/Irvin tandem? When I ask this, I am operating under the assumption that Manning/Harrison's star is fading. For my money, I'd take Jay Cutler and Brandon Marshall, but you might be able to make a compelling argument for Matt Ryan/Roddy White, Aaron Rodgers/Greg Jennings, Matt Schaub/Andre Johnson, or Drew Brees/Marques Colston, although on the latter I think Brees is not young enough and has too many weapons for that to become a really memorable tandem.
"In another time, with a team that invested in him, Young would have been the greatest ever."
stupid question, but what do you mean by that? isn't young regarded as one of the best ever anyway?
i'll admit, i'm a college football fan and i can't stand watching the pros where its all about ego and money, so my nfl credentials are a bit shaky.
but am i wrong about young?
Mr. Coates we regret to inform you that your Cowboys Pass has been revoked.
Have I been blacklisted or something? For the second time in two days I had a post get sent to moderation instead of being posted and neither one was trollish at all. WTF? By the way if this post happens to get through I second All Cowboys sentiments. No soup for you Coates!
I think Steve Young's claim to the greatest ever title is complicated by the fact that he followed the great Joe Montana.
Plus there were all those sportwriters who insisted on calling him a "great running QB" rather than a "great QB" - which in my opinion is just their way of damning him with faint praise. "Oh no, he's not really a great QB, he's just a great running QB, there's a difference."
Yeah, right.
"In another time, with a team that invested in him, Young would have been the greatest ever."
stupid question, but what do you mean by that? isn't young regarded as one of the best ever anyway?
During his prime physical years, Young was blocked by a guy named Montana.
Irvin is the most physical receiver I've ever seen play the game.
Wait a waitasecond, what about TO? I remember one game where he stiff-armed a DB to the ground and it was like watching a bully make a nerd eat dirt.
Also, I read somewhere (or maybe I dreamed it in my most seething anti-Dallas feverdreams) that Aikman was good, but nowhere near the level of Marino, Elway, Montana, etc.; instead, Aikman benefited from a buttload from guys like Emmitt Smith, Novacek, Irvin, Harper, etc.
I don't think that Steve Young is anywhere close to the perfect QB, and he's my favorite QB ever. Sure, he could scramble, but so could Cunningham, and Cunningham had a way better arm. When the Niners deigned to go deep, Young's passes were wobbly and were a pretty dicey proposition. He was accurate, but the system in which he played really gave him a boost, and having Rice and Taylor/TO went a fair distance in helping him look good. In short, system and supporting players have a lot to say about how well a QB succeeds.
Sgt,
Calm down. It's just the spam filter. It eats comments sometime. Send me an e-mail if you ever have a problem.
"Also, I read somewhere (or maybe I dreamed it in my most seething anti-Dallas feverdreams) that Aikman was good, but nowhere near the level of Marino, Elway, Montana, etc.; instead, Aikman benefited from a buttload from guys like Emmitt Smith, Novacek, Irvin, Harper, etc."
Weak-sauce. The same people who say that about Aikman, say that about Irvin and about Emmmitt. I don't know if these dudes were watching football in the 90s. But it wasn't enough to have three players who were "merely good" and a great O-line to win three Super Bowls.
Novacek and Harper were both good. But Harper did nothing as soon as he left the Cowboys. And Novacek wasn't middling TE until he hooked up with Aikmen. The list of teams to win three SBs in four years doesn't extend off of one hand. Someone on that team had to be great. Funny how the NFL always sucks when the Cowboys win.
Im not tripping like that. I just spent a lot of time getting my info together and in light of your stern lecture about blog etiquette I was just making sure I hadn't missed a memo. But here is the short of my long azz statement refuting you re Young being better than Aikman
12 years starter vs like 7
7 years leading his team to 1st place in their division
3 SB rings to 1
Aikman made pro bowlers and big contracts i e Alvin "I can't make it in the XFL" Harper where as by in large the pro bowlers around Young were already pro bowlers when he started playing and they continued to ball after he/they left
I would try to post their pro bowl profiles but I think thats what got my post eaten maybe so Ill just say look up their Hall of Fame profiles and notice how many more post season records Aikman has than Young.
And before you talk about the completion percentage lets not forget that he was playing in the west coast offense which made Rodney Peete look like a pro bowler for a time in Philly.
Don't forget that Mr Jerry Rice helped Joe Montana into the Hall of Fame and also helped the no name guy in Oakland make it to the pro-bowl so Steve Young doesn't get to be solely linked up with him.
The zenith of Manning/Harrison is past, but it's a combo whose accomplishments will stand the test of time. Just crazy stats, plus so many years of high-level success. True, they only snagged that one Lombardi--I'll give you that. But the same can be said of Favre/(Driver/Freeman/etc.), another much-loved tandem. (I'll exempt Young from that qualifier--rings as a backup count in my world.)
And then, taking advantage of the open-threadedness...the Colts next three games are versus Cleveland, Cincy, and Detroit. The Fates are finally aligning in our favor.
And I pray I haven't jinxed us.
By the way two things
1. I thing my screenname be giving people the erroneous impression that I am military whereas the sg part of my sn is just my first two initials. I would never disrespect the military like that
2. Also about the video you posted. That play was totally number 36's fault. They were playing a prevent cover 2 shell and its his job to keep the number 2 receiver, that would be Terrell Owens, from getting inside. But he decided to sell the middle backer out by not only back peddling out ensuring Owens was able to get across his face unmolested but also not even following him after he went inside to try to make a play on the ball. Yeah thats a little defensive football wonky but it is what it is and that guy cost them the game. I would also point out that the coach was an idiot for only rushing 3 when he had Reggie White at left end but that would be piling on.
The game was already over before that play, but the zebras gave SF new life with a terrible call on a Jerry Rice fumble. Yes, I'm a Packer fan, and yes, I'm still bitter about that game.
I think what TNC means regarding Young is that, had he started his NFL career under the tutelage of guys like Bill Walsh and Mike Holmgren, there's no doubt he'd be considered the GOAT.
You have to remember that he toiled in obscurity for nearly half of his career. He played two years in the USFL, spent two atrocious and regrettable years in the then NFL Siberia of Tampa Bay where he was basically a running QB without any kind of accuracy, and the players around him were basically pedestrian.
The Bucs drafted Testaverde and the Niners thinking that Joe Montana was getting long in the tooth and injury prone, saw enough potential in Young to groom him as Montana's replacement.
Of course Montana still had plenty of good years left and Young was stuck on the sideline while the Niners won two consecutive Super Bowls and almost won a 3rd (they would've crushed the Bills IMO).
By the time Montana went down in that NFC Championship game, Young had benefitted from the best QB coaching one could find, plus his team was absolutely loaded.
The rest is history, but it does make you wonder what might have happened had Montana not got hurt against the Giants. He may have still ended up in the Hall Of Fame, but it probably would've been somewhere else.
Aikman, he was underappreciated as hell. His problem was he played on perhaps the most talented NFL team ever, at least on the offensive side of the ball.
He had arguably the best RB in the league (Emmitt), the best FB in the league (Johnston), one of the 2 or 3 best WRs in the league (Irvin) and at the time one of the best pure deep receivers in the game (Harper). Novacek may have been the NFL's best receiving TE and the Offensive Line to me was hands down the best in the league and because of that I don't think Aikman ever really got the credit he deserved, but he was great.
I'd argue that you could have put Aikman in any NFL offense and he would have been a Hall Of Famer. He never really had to throw until his arm fell off to win games, because his team was THAT good and because of that he gets kind of overlooked in comparison to some of the other great quarterbacks.
As a Lions fan, I just want to take this moment to apologize to the nation for the massacre of my team that will televised across the nation tomorrow. The pure shock and awe of the epic beatdown my Lions will suffer at the hands of the Titans may cause offend more delicate sensibilities.
Also, here's a funny video of a Lions fan getting booed off a bus by Bucs fans...in Detroit
http://deadspin.com/5099118/lions-fans-not-even-fit-for-the-bus
Mikel
I agree with just about everything you said but I want to point something out. Young wasnt exactly playing with average joes.
Ricky Watters
William Floyd
Garrison Hearst before the knee injury
Brent Jones (arguably better than Novacek)
Kevin Gogan
Jesse Sapolu
Guy McIntire
Bubba Wallace
Harris Barton
Terrell Owens
Jerry Rice
John Taylor (most underrated by far!)
And thats not even talking about the beasts they had on defense!
I am a long suffering STL fan... I will never forget that unbeleivable season of Kurt Warner, Isaac Bruce, and Tory Holt, the "Greatest Show on Turf" (about game 8, I still was not a beleiver)(talk about a guy who never gave up, he STILL hasn't given up, "Go Kurt!!!!!!!!!!) (anybody see the hit Boldin took?)
But the years i will remember forever were the days of the "Cardiac Cards". Jim Hart was sacked 11 times (in total) that one year. Yeah, our O-line played dirty (Conrad Dobler once got flagged for chewing on a guys leg), but NOBODY hit the QB without paying a price. You had to love it.
11 sacks in 14 games...
Thank you Tom P. I am not alone.
Go Rams.
Sign Vick!!!
AB,
It's a minor point, but I'm not at all sure that the 49ers would have beaten the Bills in the January '91 Super Bowl. Remember, the Bills beat the Raiders 51-3 in the AFC Championship Game, with an offense that looked practically unstoppable in the postseason. The Giants won the Bowl that year not by trying to outscore the Bills, but by keeping the ball out of their hands. The Giants held the ball for 40 minutes, 33 seconds - a Super Bowl record - and their defense prevented the Bills from scoring a lot of points when they did have the ball. Only a strong, physical team with a good running game and a tough defense could have pulled off that kind of strategy and held the Bills' offense in check. If, say, Matt Bahr had missed wide right in the NFC title game, the Super Bowl likely would have been a shootout, and I don't know who would have won it. I don't think you can dismiss the Bills chances out-of-hand, because I don't think the 49ers were really any better than either the Giants or the Bills. The Giants were just a very different team than those other two.
Thoughts?
To quote Jesse Jackson on SNL: The question is moot.
Steve Young vs. Troy Aikman is like comparing Abraham Lincoln to George Bush. Likewise, to compare Rice to Owens is akin to likening Churchill to Goebbels.
OK - that might be a stretch - but my point is class. There exists ZERO class in your second pairing, whereas the former outclasses the second by miles. Stats be damned. You've offered two examples from two entirely different eras. A lot has changed in that time. Namely - a loss of class.
First of all, we all know that it was Deion Sanders who delivered San Francisco it's Superbowl ring in 1994. He was NFL Defensive Player of the Year. IMO Troy Aikman is a second tier HOF QB because he got sacked all the time, never had great arm strength, and his surrounding cast were all top tier hall of famers at their position. While Steve Young was a third tier HOF QB because he has so few attempts over his career and took over a Championship team from Joe Montana. Deion Sanders, however, might have been the greatest football player ever. In fact, I'd like to request some Deion on the next thread, so people remember. He's was unbelievable.
If the original question is which QB to WR tandem was the best in history, then I gotta go with Marino to Clayton. My feeling is that QBS like Joe Montana and Kurt Warner were system QBs. Their WRs like Rice and Bruce have a ton of YAC. I think guys like Elway and Farve and Brady belong on a higher tier at QB but never had the consistent WR threat. The only QB that can challenge Marion-Clayton is Manning-Harrison. Warren Moon was another top-tier QB who never had a top WR. Can you imagine if TO or Randy Moss had stayed on their original team? We'd probably be talking about the greatness of Daunte Culpepper.
Troy Aikman = Jim Kelly
Steve Young = Donovan McNabb (both even had TO)
BTW, Ta-Nehisi,
You need to get your hands on the new book on the 90s Cowboys, Boys Will be Boys. Those guys were so out of control. Charles Haley masturbating in the open locker room and throwing used toiled paper at coaches. Irvin stabbing some dude with barber shears.
Mike
Don't forget where the Cowboys got Haley from in the first place.
Thanks TN. I too thought Aikman was a very good (and incredibly underrated) quarterback, who like Young, had his bell rung too many times. I was glad when both retired. And though I hate the Cowboys, I always thought Emmitt and that offensive line was pretty damn good.
Being a Niners fan these days is kind of like being someone on the lookout for traffic accidents, but for about twenty years there we had first Joe Montana and then Steve Young. Spoiled forever. I will say, however, and I loved Steve Young, Joe was in a world all his own; he couldn't throw like Steve or run like him, but he was better, the best. That Cincinatti Super Bowl drive--a dime a dozen. Insofar as all that about YAC, no one threw the slant better than Joe--touch, in rhythm, in stride; noone did play action even close--he was a magician; and when it came to seeing the field, when it came to pure competition, bring on Marino, bring on Elway--he killed em both. The injuries he came back from, no one ever had come back from those kinds of injuries before him. Of course, both Steve and Joe had Rice, who was a wonder, and Joe had John Taylor who might have been a Hall of Famer, but he never spoke with the press. There were a raft of good tight ends and pass catching running backs, a great and very underrated offensive line, and a defense that always, always had the best corners and safties in the game, but when you talk Steve and Joe, while Steve had the physical skills, Joe won and won and won. Brady has a bit of it; Unitas had it. I'm told Otto Graham was another. But when you're talking about quarterbacks to fans of a team that's seen Frankie Albert, YA Tittle, Kilmer, Brodie, Montana, and Young, we'll all tell you the same thing. Joe Montana was the best that ever was.
Montana fans always have to point to his intangibles, like rings, to make his case as a QB. Montana threw a great touch pass, but the slant is the shortest throw in football and a significant percentage of his remaining passing yards came from passes to Roger Craig. Tom Brady is a better QB than Montana. Brady can make all the throws and has won 3 rings with the likes of Troy Brown catching the ball. With Randy Moss he was one game shy of unstoppable.
Terry Bradshaw is underrated for a top tier QB. Bradshaw to Stallworth has merit as one of the best combos ever.
sgwhiteinfla
Oh yeah, no doubt the Niners loaded but when people extoll the virtues of Young they don't really bring that up, but for Aikman it always rears its head as a reason to drop him beneath some of the other great QBs.
JP
Actually that was me. I think the Niners would have won, and I do think it would have been a relatively high scoring game, but I also think it would have been comparable to the Redskins-Bills Super Bowl.
The Niners had a very underrated defense that season, and in contrast, while the Bills offense was unstoppable on their home field in bad weather (Dolphins - snow, Raiders - rain) I doubt you would see them really light up the Niners in the same fashion.
Plus, I think the Bills defense while having a few great players (Smith, Bennett) was fairly average, and I doubt they would have been able to stop a highly motivated Niners offense, especially one with two weeks to prepare.
The Giants had to play ball control because they were obviously outmanned. San Francisco was not.
essentially boxing cornerbacks out.
Or pushing the hell off. (and I love Michael Irvin even if I hate the Cowboys.)
Steve Young = Donovan McNabb (both even had TO)
Except Steve Young's a winner. And McNabb's not.
First of all, we all know that it was Deion Sanders who delivered San Francisco it's Superbowl ring in 1994. He was NFL Defensive Player of the Year.
Word. Delivered one for Dallas too, as I recall.
By the way, never bet against the ex-Tampa QB in the Super Bowl: Doug Williams, Steve Young, and Trent Dilfer and Vinny Testaverde*. And it doesn't take Philip K. Dick to postulate that Kenny Stabler played for the Bucs in an alternate reality. Chris Chandler is the exception that proves the rule.
And by the way, that was a nice toss by Young, but one hell of a manly catch by TO in that clip.
One more thing: The greatest thing that ever happened in the storied history of the
National
Football
League
was when Niner TO scored and celebrated on the Dallas Star at midfield. Pure genius.
*Future win.
Hassan:
Be lucky you have Calvin Johnson. If only you guys had a real QB and offensive line.
No love for Steve Largent? The dude had Jim Zorn and Dave Kreig throwing to him? The best RB had during his career was Curt Warner(who went to JoePa U.). Not to mention he didn't play in a pass happy era like Rice and the others did.
I love that you love football so much. Mama would have loved you.
Coates,
where do you put Marino on the eternal QB scale. Yes, he never won ' the big one', but come on!
I'll always cherish the Montana-Young years as a 49ers fan myself but like other 49er fans, we simply cannot abide by the notion that Young was the greatest QB of all time. I think Ta-Nehisi's memory of Young is overly colored by the wonderful Cowboys-Niners rivalry of the mid 1990s.
It was Montana who vanquished the Cowboys to irrelevance for nearly a decade after "the Catch". Young could barely impede the Cowboys during the 1990s. People here seem to only know that Montana just won Super Bowls as if he wasn't also a statistical overachiever as well. As of 2007, he owned three of the top 10 Super Bowl performances. I'd like to point out the early portion of Montana's career didn't have well-known WRs or RBs (except for Wendell Tyler in the latter portion of HIS career).
Montana's epic battle against Denver's John Elway when he was a KC Chief should have silenced all the critics who had conveniently forgotten that Montana was a great QB with or without the excellent players that Walsh, Policy and DeBartolo gave him. He brought the Chiefs to the playoffs twice while he was there.
Rice fumbled. Too bad there was no instant replay at the time. That play should have never happened.
Man, 5 minutes of YouTube abuse of Favre fans--you're "killin me Petie!" I gotta give it up for the 49ers... then.
Now, where are the 49ers, where are the Packers and where is Brett Favre?
Young is long gone, Aikman is in the booth,(he visits his alma mater UCLA ,now and then), and what has Favre done?
Let me see...gone to a different conference,
different team and system, learned a new playbook, transformed a team of heretofore slackers into believers,passed for 6 TDs in one game, broke another Marino passing record, and moved his team into elite status with a TKO of previously undefeated Tennessee. At 39. Still starting and finishing every game, probably with a host of injuries no one will ever know about.
Aikman and Young couldn't do that. Marino didn't do that. Bart Starr certainly didn't do that. Brett Favre is a freak of football nature. I'll take some bone-head decisions over the years (goes with gunslinger mentality)along with the grit and greatness that is Favre.
I am glad you lauded Michael Irvin, th most underrated WR ever. Undersized compared with most, buthe played his position like a big TE, up the middle, getting hit like a man hellbent on a suicide mission tied to crosstown train rails. Jerry Rice wrote the book on WRs, but my son a WR says Chad Johnson is the most inspirational. He came from nothing, academically and every other way and clawed his way into the league. Plays tough.
Montana was a great quarterback, not a great thrower. He didn't have great arm strength, but his accuracy, mobility, finding the open man, hitting the receiver in stride, staying focused during a busted play, and almost telepathic communication with guys like Rice and Clark added up to pure genius.
Favre is more spectacular, and Marino had that incredible release; both could outthrow Montana any day of the week, but that's not what wins games.
Having seen most of the qbs referred to above in person,for me, hands down Aikman was the most impressive for pure throwing ability (tv can't compare to seeing the ball come out of these guys hands live) Compact delivery of a laserlike spiral. 1st time I saw it...Whoa! that's different! Kinda like watching MLB on the tube for years then going to a game and seeing a big league SS make the throw from the hole. It's impressive.
Mike,
Joe had the rare ability to look at more than one receiver during the play. this is what sets him apart, and wins big games. Simply finding the open man makes passing so much easier, and opens up the field for your really good receivers to operate.
Oddly, Jim McMahon had this ability too. I don't know why it is so undervalued or so hard to do, but it is.
Also, I agree about Brett. Lots of his interceptions were 3rd down, 45 yards down the sidelines - as good as a punt. He made many second rate GB teams competitive.
T--while we're at it, can we have a little parlay on how great Summerall and Madden were in their prime? Summerall, (and especially not Michaels) was the perfect counterpoint to Madden's schtick. He had the stately, dramatic, straightman sense, while Madden could play the giddy 5 year old. I don't think I've ever had the sense of drama watching Joe Buck or any of these other knuckle-brains.
Looking forward to the Cowgirls getting overconfident again...
Jerry Jones' ego is the reason the Cowboys didn't win four Super Bowls in a row. Had he kept it in check, he would have held onto Jimmy Johnson who most certainly would have won both of the next two as well and maybe more.
Hell, the Cowboys went ahead and won their third despite Barry Switzer and if he hadn't bungled the NFC title game against the 49ers, even he would have won two - again making it four in a row.
And don't forget the Cowboys offensive line. However good / great Emmitt, Troy, et al were, the offensive line was AWESOME !
I do have to laugh at Just Karl's 'intangibles' comment upthread. Yeah, citing Montana's rings as some kind of indirect proof that he wasn't really a good quarterback - that makes sense.
Not.
I'm surprised at how little love Elway is getting here. I'd say he's better than any of the other QBs of the 80's and 90's, with the exception of Joe Montana. He never had a great supporting cast of WRs, but still put up great stats. For most of his career he didn't have a great running game, and he still led the Broncos to 3 Super Bowls during that time. When he finally did get a great RB to pair with, he promptly won 2 straight Super Bowls, including one over Favre and the Pack.
He didn't have the gaudy completion percentage of most of the other guys, because he was playing ina different system. His one negative is his high number of INTs, something he shares with Favre. Even with that, it's hard to argue with his record of success.
There is one more thing I want to say about why Aikman should be ranked above Steve Young....Competition.
From 1991 to 1996 five of those six superbowls had a team from the NFC east in it and in fact in all five instances the NFC east team brought home the ship. Dallas had to contend with the likes of the Giants, the Skins, and the Eagles and two times a year. And that was just to get IN the playoffs.
No disrespect to Montana or Young but you have to admit that playing the Atlanta Falcons, Los Angeles/St. Louis Rams, and the New Orleans Saints, doesn't come close in comparison.
Quick name a impact defensive player not playing for the 49ers in the NFC West from the early 90s. lol The only one you could possibly name, Deion Sanders they went out and grabbed.
Joe Montana was the best that ever was.
As I look at my list of Great QB's, I get MArino, Montana, Elway, P.Manning and Favre above Aikman and Young.
A lot of the 49ers success came form opportunities given to them by Ronnie Lott and Co. Man I loved to watch that guy hit people coming across the middle of the field.
http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/7146
Fun interview with Lott from 1994.
I agree with you. Aikman and Irvin were great players. Hall of Fame worthy. But, they were not on the same level as Young and Rice.
Your statement about Young possibly being the greatest ever had a team invested in him was rather astute.
I remember when Young first took over for Montana, I hated Young. I loved Montana, and I still do. Young won me over. His heart, his dedication and his toughness, let's not forget his talent. He just flat out won me over.
It hurts to watch the 49ers play these days. It saddens me. I love my 49ers and they just have no direction.
As for T.O. I hate him. I really do hate him. I can't believe this disgrace to the term "team" was once on my 49ers.
Great post.
I do have to laugh at Just Karl's 'intangibles' comment upthread. Yeah, citing Montana's rings as some kind of indirect proof that he wasn't really a good quarterback - that makes sense.
For some reason, it only seems to make sense with respect to NFL QBs. Pointing to the fact that Barry Bonds has no rings means very little in the discussion of his ability and his "ranking" among the all time greats. Yet, everyone wants to claim that it's somehow different with Marino. Or that Elway needed to win those rings.
I think winning matters in all sports, but I give it a lower weighting than I give to pure skills when considering the all time greats. The discussion of Montana is never about his pure skills and always about "leadership" or "determination". Attributes that cannot be measured and therefore cannot be compared. How much weight do we give Favre's "love of the game"?
Did Walter Payton need to win that ring?
Just Karl
I think there is a big difference between football and most other sports in that the players only play either defense or offense. Barry Bonds is a great player because in addition to HR titles he has a wall full of gold gloves. Jordan was great because he was the MVP and also on the all defensive team. With football guys have a higher bar because they only affect wins and losses by their performances on their side of the ball. You look at what fans would say is the top 5 all time at any position in football and maybe one guy in each list won't have a ring and the rest of them will. Thats because to truly be great in football you have to be SO good that your greatness on your side of the ball negates any weakness that might be on the other side of the ball. You can lift your team to victory just by balling out of control in your area of the game. Where as Bonds could make a game saving catch OR hit a homerun to win a game and where as Jordan could block a shot or steal a pass OR drop 50 on a team to win a game, Guys like Montana or Aikman had to get their team into the endzone enough times that no matter how the defense plays the team wins. And they had to do that over and over again over a long period of time. Now I agree that Elway should be in the discussion because he not only won 2 rings, he took his team to the ship other times as well. But if you bring in Marino you might as well bring in Jim Kelly because he put up ridiculous numbers and he took his team to the superbowl 4 times in a row at least. But neither Marino nor Kelly ever did enough that it trancended what their defense did or what their special teams did. And that to me is what the definition of greatness is all about.
Chris Johnson is doing one helluva Barry impersonation
Almost 50 comments on this post, everyone shouting out the names of their favorite QB - receiver combos and not a single mention of Fouts to Jefferson, Joiner and Chandler.
Fouts was the man.
I think a lot of this discussion comes down to talent. What NFL QB in would have been a HOFer without an all Pro starting line-up.
I think the answer to that is simple.
Dan Marino
12 years starter vs like 7
Young was a starter for relatively fewer seasons through no fault of his own -- he spent four years backing up Montana, and the team wasn't about to unseat the beloved incumbent short of catastrophic injury. Young's apprenticeship resulted from the pre-salary cap years, where you could handcuff your star QB with someone who had proven skills, so Aikman wouldn't have been put in a similar situation as Young's early Niners tenure, but imagine if he were traded to the Broncos.
7 years leading his team to 1st place in their division
The Niners during the Young era won the NFC West 6 times.
3 SB rings to 1
3 SB rings to 3 SB rings, to be absolutely accurate. But that's a terrible metric to compare a player by, since neither Aikman nor Young played on defense, and the Niners for most of the early '90s had a defense that wasn't world-beating.
(The whole "Super Bowl victories as a measure of worth" concept is the same as blaming a starting pitcher for not winning 20 games because his bullpen and/or offense blows.)
Anyway, STEVE YOUNG 4 EVER because he always had some crazy in him, like losing his helmet in the middle of a play, and instead of heading for the sideline, he scrambled up the middle of the defense, and instead of sliding, he dove sideways, and instead of doing this during the regular season, DOING IT DURING A PRE-SEASON GAME AGAINST THE CHARGERS.
Am I the only one who just can't get as excited about football as I used to? After the election, the economic meltdown, terrorist attacks in Mumbai, etc. football just does not seem very important anymore. I have been a lifelong fan, grew up on football, but this year I am just not feeling it.
Niners defense wasn't world beating?
Beasts of the 90s
Charles Haley
Ronnie Lott
Merton Hanks
Dana Stubblefield
Tim McDonald
Eric Davis
Lee Woodall
Deion Sanders
Ken Norton Jr
Bryant Young
Chris Doleman
Bill Romanowski
For Young's Superbowl year here was your defensive line up.
Dennis Brown
Dana Subblefield
Bryant Young
Rickey Jackson
Ken Norton Jr
Gary Plummer
Lee Woodall
Neon Deion
Eric Davis
Merton Hanks
Tim McDonald
Only Brown and Plummer never made it to a pro bowl in their career.
Thats what I would call world beating!
But if you bring in Marino you might as well bring in Jim Kelly because he put up ridiculous numbers and he took his team to the superbowl 4 times in a row at least.
As I said before, Jim Kelly = Troy Aikman in terms of skill on the all time list. I don't think Aikman's rings give him much of an advantage. I'd rank them both in the latter half of the top 20.
Whoever said Dan Fouts, I agree. That 1981 overtime playoff game in the Orange Bowl was epic. Miami pulled the "hook and ladder" out. Kellen Winslow Sr. had to be carried from the field at the end of it. Winslow had 13 catches for 166 yds and blocked a FG in OT. During the game he was treated for a pinched nerve, dehydration, severe cramping, and he took 3 stitches in his lip.
So, now that McNabb showed up in all his scrambling, zippy pass glory tonight, does that make Andy Reid a bad ass coach?
I think I have the perfect answer for the cats on this thread that think rings don't matter
If Jim Kelly = Troy Aikman
does
Kobe Bryant = Micheal Jordan?
I can't wait to hear the comebacks on this one even though the thread might be dead.
Sorry to come to this thread late, would have been fun.
Agree with this post, mainly.
It's all what-if's, for the most part. If you include Young's running ability, then in the "measurable skills" category - throwing arm, running, strength, etc - Young is a better quarterback than Aikman - even if the numbers don't measure up.
Those intangibles though - they have an effect.
There were many - too many - times I would watch Young, and he would HOLD ON TO THE BALL just way too long.
Montana - dude really did have the eyes all over the field. He would have made throws that basically, Young didn't SEE, in time.
But how can you rate that? How can you measure that? It's really just - there, or not there.
Favre has some of this, Brady has a LOT of this intangible, but of course Favre is much more erratic, and prone to interceptions.
Still - as was mentioned above - now has all the main records, still going STRONG, on a completely different team, even given his age.
He's done something now, and lasted longer as quarteback at the top of his game, that no quarterback has done yet, in two different systems.
The argument is getting stronger that he is the "greatest" quarterback, even if not the "best", in pure quarterbacking - which I still reserve for Joe Montana.
These intangibles are messy, of course - TNC says in this thread that Rice is the greatest receiver ever - but there's a very solid argument that he is the greatest PLAYER ever. The gap between him and the #2 receiver, is simply so large, statistically, and in # of records held, both regular season and playoff season.
In that "best of" class, you've got Jim Brown, Jerry Rice, someone mentioned defensively, you've got Prime Time.
Watching the Titans-Lions game with my 8-yr-old yesterday:
Him: "WOW! The Lions' punter is awesome! Look at how far he kicks it every time."
Me: "Well, he gets an awful lot of practice."
Him: "What do you mean?.... Oh. Yeah. I guess he does."
Kobe Bryant = Micheal Jordan?
Now that's just crazy talk. But if intangibles matter, then Kobe is disqualified by virtue of being a rapist.
Top 5 all time basketball players:
Jordan
Russell
Magic
Bird
Oscar
i'm late to this thread too, but may i just say that the youtube segment our host shows us demonstrates one of the worst prevent defenses i have ever seen. packer back #42 (or 43, couldn't tell for sure) seems not to understand that the point of a "prevent" defense is to "prevent" touchdowns, and when you are 3 yards deep in the end zone while the receiver is still on the 2 yard line, you ain't "preventing" nothing. pathetic.
and as a giants fan, let me respond to mikel upthread: the giants were not "outmanned" by the bills. they beat 'em by playing their style of play: ball control, hard hitting, receivers who knew how to block.
as for great qbs, i don't understand how we're supposed to differentiate between eras when this kind of thing comes up, but as the (self-appointed) old-timer here, let me suggest you kids check out otto graham....
Just Karl
You don't think Jordan did the EXACT SAME THING Kobe did a gazillion times over? I like how you tried to dodge the question but you get an EPIC FAIL for justification.
Oh and by the way, guess what all 5 of your top 5 basketball players have in common
Starts with R ends with G and they all had more than one.
I'm a niners guy and Montana-Young and Rice-Taylor made for some heart stopping thrills.
Still, Montanta's got to be the QB I put on the pedestal. Best field vision and decision making of any QB I've seen.
My favorite niners aren't qbs. Jerry Rice worked harder than anybody in any sport I've heard of. His records are a result of talent, sure, but it diminshes his stature to ignore the work he put into perfecting his craft, honing his skills, hardening his body, and running that extra hill or sprint.
On the other side of the ball, Ronnie Lott was his equally dedicated alter-ego. A smart, passionate, studious pile driver. Guys like that elevate watching football from a diversion into a celebration of human nature.
Tom Brady is a better QB than Montana.
Sheer, unadulterated blasphemy.
Steve Young is the best QB I've ever seen, with John Elway as a close second. They could both everything very well. My dad, however, insists that Johnny Unitas is WITHOUT ANY QUESTION FROM YOU WHIPPERSNAPPERS the greatest ever.
Late to the thread, oh well. It wasn't so much that Young-T.O. play that killed me as the whole drive. Young was incredible on that, capped off by a singularly perfect pass.
I'm not going to comment on QB GOAT - I don't know enough. But I will say that watching Jerry Rice was unbelievable. The way that guy could elude a tackle by just melting out of the tackler's grasp was unmatched.
Hi Guys,
i'm really enjoying the forum so, excuse my bad english :(
cheers
http://www.squidoo.com/firstchoicepharmacy