In response to the Michelle Obama post below, commenter Lebecka writes:
TNC, if you stop seeing her as a black woman, and see her instead as a strong person, you will love this picture. She is such an important role model for women and girls everywhere-- She is strong, intelligent, hardworking person, who is also 100% woman. Very much like Condi in this aspect.This has been a constant refrain throughout this election. I get e-mails all the time asking why Obama has to be as the "first black president" when he's president of the country. Or why do I see Obama as "black man" instead of a "great American." Or in this case why I see Michelle Obama as a black woman instead of "as a strong person."
What I'm not understanding is the sense that by calling someone black, we somehow erase any other signifier of their identity. I think this says more about how black people are seen, than about how they actual live. Look, I'm a black man. It's that simple, it's who I am and how I was raised. But I'm a Dallas Cowboys fan. I'm a comic geek. I'm an amateur foodie. I'm a father. And so on. None of those things conflict with the other. But it's like when we're talking about race, and specifically in reference to black people who've achieved some level of broad cultural acceptance, somehow it's wrong to identify them as black.
Often what you'll get is "He wasn't just a black soandso, he was a great American soandso"--like somehow one cancels the other out. I understand this from a competition perspective. I hope to be a great writer someday, not just some dude who's "a great writer as far as the blacks go." But that goes for any group--I'm sure most Jewish writers hope to be compared with the best, ethnicity aside, same for women, gender aside. But in terms of identity, we are all so many things at the same time. I see Denzel Washington as a great American actor and a black man. I see Mel Martinez as Cuban-American and as a senator. One doesn't cancel out the other.
I wonder if, from a particular white perspective, this come from a sense of feeling excluded, of feeling that when someone looks at Michelle Obama as a "black woman" this cuts them out of the conversation. I don't know. That would assume a lot of arrogance, no? Like there's nothing good coming out of Trenchtown.
P.S. Lebecka, I hope you don't take offense at me highlighting your quote. It's all in the spirit of debate.
The Beautiful Struggle: A Father, Two Sons, and an Unlikely Road to Manhood 
TNC,
I don't remember seeing any foodie posts! What's up?
Wait, did you not love the picture? I guess I misread your post...
It's coming. I'm thinking of learning to make sushi...
I think that people have bought into a belief that "colorblindness" is a good thing to be. It's like when it comes to hiring -- the default assumption is that you'd have to choose between a minority and "the best person for the job," not that the best person for the job could also be a minority.
Michelle Obama can be a black woman and still a role model for any PERSON (not just any woman)
Larry Bird was pretty good for a white boy. Race trips up even those with good intentions. Tiptoe, deny and lie or just say what you see.
Nicely put, Christina.
Making sushi is messy but surprisingly fun. You might want to start with veggie sushi, which dials down the OH MY GOD DEAD FISH stress level a bit.
There's really not much to learn. Catch a fish. Make some rice. Cut it into little pieces. Put the little pieces of fish onto little lumps of rice. Viola!
At first I read the initial post as a criticim of the picture, perhaps for showing Michelle Obama in a dress that was too revealing and more like something an entertainer might wear. I expected to find the word "objectifying" in the post somewhere, or perhaps something about portraying black women as entertainers rather than serious political figures. But nothing like that turned up, and I read the whole thing again.
But there was that ambiguity at the start, so I can understand why someone might try to make the argument that no, it really is a nice picture regardless of the identity of the person in it. I think everyone agrees on that. Or am I wrong?
(I don't even think the dress is that revealing. It's an evening look, but a classy one.)
Sure. We should all admire her because she's a wonderful human being. I see what Lebecka is saying, but part of her undeniable allure is that she's a beautiful black woman. And I'm not sure that's such a big deal. It's an acknowledgement that there haven't been a lot of real-life Claire Huxtables in the public eye.
"But it's like when we're talking about race, and specifically in reference to black people who've achieved some level of broad cultural acceptance, somehow it's wrong to identify them as black."
--Wrong for whom? Generally black people can't wait to identify someone successful w/blackness. Do you mean nonblack people?
I think I can explain this one, at least from a white perspective.
There was a MAD TV sketch back in the late 90's, wherein a group of office workers were gathered around a table in the break room.
One of them says something along the lines of "man, that new employee Jeff sure is a great guy."
The sucker for the bit then goes "Jeff? I don't think I've met him yet. What does he look like?"
The other folks around the table then variously describe Jeff as tall, thin, wears striped oxfords, has glasses, etc. The sucker finally realized who they're talking about and goes "Oh, you mean the black guy!"
Cue obvious reaction.
For white people, especially whites who grew up in insular communities and don't really know anyone black, there is a real fear of accidentally acting racist. Even if you are enlightened, tolerant, have no problem with blacks, gays, asians, nerds, jocks, women, etc etc etc, there is still a fear in the back of your mind that if you ever do meet a black person in a social setting you're going to accidentally blurt out a racial slur or say something that makes you look like an ass. This is where the p.c. movement came from - if everyone knows and uses and enforces the socially acceptable labels, there is no chance of sticking your foot in your mouth and being irredeemably stamped as a closet racist. The irredeemable is the really frightening part - make one mistake and for the rest of your life people view you through that lens.
It's been going on so long that even the "acceptable" labels, the ones like queer and black that those communities endorse, become frightening. "What if it changes, and no one tells me?" thinks the white person. So the goal then becomes to absolutely avoid any acknowledgment that a black person is black, or a gay person is gay, etc. And when their cooler, less nervous friends talk about "black people" instead of African-Americans or whatnot, it make them nervous. So they use this logic of "he's not a great black artist, he's a great artist" and the extensions thereof to justify their rigid control over their own words.
Michelle Obama is a beautiful, whip-smart, confident black woman. For some people, admitting that they see her that way feels like it might imply that they have a less positive view of other black women, or that they somehow hold white women to a different standard (for whatever reason) than black women. This makes them nervous, so they instinctively try to avoid the qualifier.
Honestly? It's not that I don't see that she's black, or that I don't have an idea of how much that means, or that doesn't make it all more special for me (it does). It's just more like: can I stop hearing about her blackness? I just honestly have never read anything about the woman that didn't emphasize her color. It gets kind of tiresome, because she's a lot of things, not just black. The "black" doesn't cancel out the other attributes - you're wrong there, in that assumption - it's just (to some tastes) too often put on center stage. Other adjectives deserve the spotlight just as much.
Jordan, it’s not fear of accidentally acting racist, but I think you’re close. It’s more a reaction against hearing subtly racist comments so many times before that our response is ingrained.
I'm 40, and grew up in an all-white part of the south, and I discovered as an adult that I had to shift my thinking to say "guys who were black", instead of "black guys", to get past being like the MADTV reference you make. I just grew up more inclined to see differences first than similarities, but it’s a liberating perspective change to make. (Living in Chicago helped, especially since cultural similarities were more readily apparent with local blacks than whites, even though social contacts were not.) Having heard most of my life that soandso did great "for a black guy", I instinctively recoil at it, which is what it sounds like Lebecka did as well.
One of the things so annoying to me about McCain's acceptance speech was his focus on the accomplishment for the African-American community, which seemed designed to say he's done a lot "as far as the blacks go." To me, it sounded like a deliberate attempt to marginalize the victory. of course I'd been channel-surfing and watching Fox, which was focusing on all-black crowds while the other nets were focusing on Times Square, so that clouded my view of things. Maybe McCain intended to be inclusive, but I can't tell. I'm pretty sure Fox didn't.
Because we so often hear race brought up in ways to be deliberately marginalizing, it is easy to automatically feel that people are bringing it up with a divisive or marginalizing intent, even when, like in the post (and maybe even like in the speech, who knows), there's obviously a truly thrillingly inclusive and optimistic point being made.
OK I'm about to go all cultural studies on y'all's asses, and that's really atypical for me.
But perhaps white folks are so vehement about moving the Obamas from the 'black' semiotic grouping to an 'American' category because they're unable to reconcile the two? I mean, I've heard alot of black folks complain that to be seen as black is to be considered not 'as American' as whites.
Maybe this is what's at work here?
I don't as a white man feel excluded by noting the racial marker inre Michele Obama, though I think it is an oversimplification when it comes to her husband. She is super intelligent and attractive, appears to be the kind of wife and mother any man would find themselves more than lucky to have, has big time school and career creds, will be an elegant First Lady, who will also do good works without question while in the White House, and is young enough to have a post kids, White House career if she so wishes. Gotta give her respect, admiration.
Because she will be the first black First Lady, she has the extra burden of history on her shoulders in which so many conflicts reside as well as projections collide.
Insofar as her skin color goes: as a man with eyes, I see in color and enjoy doing so. Michele Obama has beautiful complexion. That's what my eyes tell me.
Culturally speaking, I have as much in common with her as I have with almost any First Lady I can think of, except perhaps Hillary Clinton, whom I might have gone to college with. I was the father of two girls for whom I had primary responsibility several months every year, so I get a whole number of things in Obama's relationship with her daughers from body language to tone of voice. She would be easier for me to have a real conversation with than Hillary Clinton, who might dismiss me cause she's dealt with a million men of her generation like me and might give me the quick study and dismissal since I never made it to her power circle, or either of the Bush First Ladies, with whom I would expect short shrift from Barbara Bush and a bit of shallow Texan graciousness from Laura Bush.
I come at this from a bit of a different angle. My Mom drilled into my head not to be proud of things you had nothing to do with, only with what you have done. This is why I don't get why people are proud of being Black, Irish, Gay, etc. If you were born that way, you have no reason to be proud of it; it just is. Granted, being White does allow me a little more latitude in thinking that way.
Now, believe me, I can see why people everywhere can be proud of what the Obama's have accomplished. I just have a hard time with pride in general, I suppose.
Let's face it, this is pretty freakin' complicated.
ben, one of the cool things about the photo shown was that it was in a french magazine. when I lived in france, I simply could not convince people that black Americans were just as American as I was. They thought I was blowing smoke. they flat-out insisted that I didn't know what I was talking about, even though I was the American, and not them.
I think you're suggestion is exactly backwards: I'm already sick of hearing the right-wing nutjobs talk about our "black president", and not our "president", and the man's not even sworn in yet.
I'm SO not having any of this,
' Oh Michelle is just a strong woman'.
Bullshit.
Michelle Obama is a BLACK WOMAN.
I'm tired of folks trying to get around that Barack Obama is Black.
That Michelle Obama is Black.
Part of this multi-cultural world if we're going to be successful, is that you MUST see that they are Black. And say that they are Black. And realize that whatever you think is positive or good about them - guess what, especially in Michelle's case - it was nutured by the BLACK community. The values she learned. The self-assurance. The self-respect. It was learned and nurtured in the Black community. The thing is, as Michelle Obama says herself - she's not special. There's always been a thriving Black middle-class out there. It's existed for GENERATIONS. But, even as it grew, it's always been INVISIBLE.
The shock to most folks outside of the Black community is that it's coming to the forefront.
Valerie Jarrett's family; Desiree Rogers' former husband, John Rogers, has a family history that reaches back across GENERATIONS, and follows the arc of history for Black Americans. Eric Holder's wife's family - Same.
The tendency of White America is to divorce that which does not fit comfortable Black pathology; make these Black folks ' special'. Which makes the Obamas even more wonderful: neither athlete nor entertainer. Just two highly educated, prepared folks.
It's time to accept the whole and entirety of Black Humanity.
Given that this applies even more so to Asian Americans ("No, where do you REALLY come from", "You speak ENGLISH so well), I don't think this complaint is unfounded. It extends across the spectrum to all minorities, as the default American is seen as a white male.
That's an easier attitude to take when the things you have nothing to do with are not used to beat you down or discriminate against. It's a natural to turn that around, to take what was a disadvantage and exult when it can be taken as a plus.
I am a white woman, so I don't get to experience the particular emotional resonance of having a beautiful, accomplished, gracious black first lady but I can sure appreciate a beautiful, accomplished, gracious first lady.
... and man look at her skin in that photo, and her collarbones !!! She may be the most all-around smokin' first lady evah.
I think something that's being overlooked are societal norms. White men dominate most aspects of our society (the recent election being a notable exception) and the simple fact is that whites are still a majority in our society (although not men). So (with the exception of Larry Bird) you never see anyone say, "He's a great white X," or "He's tall, skinny, has dark curly hair, wears a striped shirt, and is uh... white." Whiteness is considered to be the norm to a certain extent, so at some level people (or at least me and my fellow white people) don't identify ourselves as a "white American."
From that comes a sort of Catch-22 where white people have to either maintain a double standard (identify someone through race, sexual orientation, in the case of men gender, etc. when they don't do so for themselves) or deny that people outside of socially driven norms can derive a legitimate form of identification from the fact that they're a minority (or in the case of women treated as a minority).
To be frank, I think the answer is to acknowledge the existence of that identity but to simply treat them the way you would anyone else. Acknowledge that someone's black, a woman, gay, ect. but give them the same courtesy and respect that you would to someone who's a white man.
I acknowledge that Barack Obama is a black man. I certainly acknowledge that he had to get over some significant obstacles to get to where he is today. But that had no bearing on why I voted for him. In my mind, he has better ideas, is a cooler customer and would do better by the country than John McCain would. That's why I'm proud that he's going to be my President. I'm proud for my country that we've made demonstrable progress against our bullshit racial hangups.
I think TNC should not blame readers for his choice of adjective. TNC uses black in a prideful way, FoxNews uses black in a condescending manner. The reader must interpret based on what they know of the author. To my reader's eye, skin color is a very lazy descriptor that tells me almost nothing about the subject and makes me question the intent of the author. The only true purpose of describing someone as black is to exclude white, yellow, brown, and red. I would suspect that culturally I have more in common with Michelle than with Barack, but I have no way of knowing if skin color is used as a rhetorical substitute for heritage.
Freakin' complicated indeed, KevDog.
Jordan and jrc make good points about whites' insecurities about seeming racist, or borish, or as an over-reaction to racists in your midst. But the whole "not just black soandso but American soandso" can also imply that the achievements, qualities, of blacks are somehow not so apparently as universal as those of whites -- therefore the need to add the "but American soandso" just to show that you get it. But "showing that you get it" can also reinforce that implication. Maybe we protest too much. It's like Ben said, it can betray a sense that blackness is confined to all those sociological catagories (and therefore not so universal, or "American") that whiteness somehow escapes.
I've noticed this in discussions of music. When discussing classical composers like Beethoven, you can talk about his German nationality -- because there was a "German" school different from the "French" school and so on -- and nobody feels the need to add the qualifier that, of course, Beethoven's music is of the ages and transcends it's cultural origins.
But when somebody like Albert Murray encorporates the blackness of, say, Duke Ellington, into a discussion of Ellington's music, all sorts of people think that's racist. Talk like that, we're told, limits what is music of universal appeal. Yeah, well, all "universal" music had to come from somewhere, whether it was Germany in the early 1800s or black DC and New York in the early 1900s. Sometimes, recognizing that the universal can come from black sources as well as white seems to discomfort the room.
As for Ta-Nehisi's post on Michelle Obama, it just showed me the extent to which blacks can be affected by the new level and kind of public recognition afforded to them by Obama's presidency.
TN, I think your making a mountain out of a molehill. Lebecka's post was a reaction to your post which he/she thought was an unfavorable reaction to the picture (I too was confused as to whether you liked or didn't like the picture in the first post) - the commenter was trying to fathom how you couldn't like it. I don't think that means he/she feels some sort of frustrated dichotomy over black woman vs. strong woman, only that he/she thought you might.
Based on my initial misinterpretation of the original post, I throw the following questions into the mix:
Does it improve the status of a political figure to show him/her as sexually alluring?
Does it diminish the status of a political figure to show him/her as sexually alluring?
And the reverse:
Does it improve/diminish the status of a political figure to show him/her as distinctly NOT alluring, perhaps due to age or physical disability?
Do the answers change by sex?
Do the answers change by race?
Is there an age when the answers flip over, and does that vary by sex or race?
I say this in full knowledge that the Obamas are reasonably young and gorgeous as well as smart. But lots of brilliant people of all ages aren't all that pretty, and few women over 55 could get away with that dress.
Someday there's going to be a total frump of an elderly black woman running a cabinet department, or something bigger. Most people take a long, long time to rise in politics, and they don't get power till their looks are mostly faded. Will we be able to recognize power in an ugly old black woman, the same way we have recognized it in so many ugly old white men?
There's a lot more than race in the mix here.
@CitizenE
I salute u! I feel the same. Even though i'm not american, i feel that i have more in common with Barack than i would have with any other president i know of. even our life narratives match aside from the absentee dad.
@Rikyrah
you make a great point. and i can attest to that divorce as an outsider (not in the palin sence). When you look at America from the outside, black middle-class somehow, is always left out. I loved the huxtables when i was a kid, but for a very long time, i couldn't see a representation of them in the media or presented as an example of the black middle class, as opposed to the exception to black people as a whole they were presented as (Bill O'Reilly comes to mind). A lot of black people i see on tv are infact entertainers or atheletes . But a black intellectual, from a middle-class family is hard to find. Nowadays I can identify more of them, but that has more to do with my own interest in american intellectualism and culture. I read about Valerie Jarrett's family, and they were not only intellectual, but had a very strong filantropic strain in them.
with all that said, it would be unwise to make the Obamas an example of only black persevereance. They're a great example of the promise of america too! They started out at the lower class of society and worked their butts of to get somewhere (i'm almost certain this has something to do with being part of a close-nit black community ), and they not only got "somewhere", they made it to the absolute top. But that does not make them "special", that makes them exceptional. I know that the Jackie Robinson analogy has been beaten to death, but do you think a "lesser" black couple could have done what they did? It's not that it couldn't be done by any other couple, but the way that they did it, is unprecedented. I think that is huge for america, AND huge for the black community. I think the Obamas, the Jarrets, the Powells are examples not of what bill o'reilly thinks is the exception of black america, but great examples of black america...and in the larger sence america.
If I am not mistaken, I think I already said that.
The fact that we are talking about a beautiful black woman in this thread -- one who isn't an entertainer and who does not have phenotypical traits that emulate white beauty standards at all (black folks, y'all know what I mean: "good hair";"light eyes"; etc. And don't get your undies twisted, it's not about who's "black enough," it's about who's often represented as beautiful within our community and who's not)-- is a small revolution.
For me, that's the root of the emotional impact when I see a photo like that of Michelle. Annie Lebowitz smashed it, per usual. She captures a coyness, a strength, a femininity that is terrifically alluring and undeniably attractive.
Every little brown-skinned, book loving nerd girl growing up right now knows, without being told (as the telling was never convincing anyway) that there is a place for her in America. That she can grow up to be appreciated in her wholeness as a human being -- all her identities integrated and on display.
It is profoundly moving. And like you, TNC, I have been stunned by how much it means to me.
And my Irish ancestors did take pretty hard there for a while, though not so much anymore.
At the risk of purporting to speak for white people everywhere, let me offer another explanation. It's often very hard for white people to get past the barrier of perceived racial difference when they interact with blacks. Some black people seem to send signals that their racial identity is the primary lens through which they see everything, which makes white people nervous. It's also a little off-putting, because most white people don't want to have all their personal interactions held under that microscope. I'm a lawyer; not a day goes by when I think of myself (or any of my white colleagues) as a "white lawyer." That means I am free to think of myself as a good lawyer or a bad one, and to hold my colleagues up to similar scrutiny, without getting bogged down in the racial implications of those evaluations. If I run into a black lawyer who strongly self-identifies as a "black lawyer," then my interactions with that person get complicated in a way that I don't particularly welcome. If I run into a black lawyer who, despite being completely comfortable in his own skin, acts as if his race is no big deal, then it's just human nature that I'm going to be more at ease with that person, and interact with him more like I'd interact with any other lawyer.
This dynamic isn't unique to racial differences: substitute "female" or "Armenian" or "gay" or "Eskimo" for "black" in the above paragraph, and the dynamics are similar. A person can wear his/her identity as a shell and a mask, allowing it to both define and limit him/her; he/she can try to run away from it and pretend it doesn't exist; or he/she can wear it with ease but not let it become a cage.
I know that this is a bit unfair to black people -- it's not like racial self-consciousness isn't pushed on them by white society. I think it was Thurgood Marshall who said that he never visited a city in America where he had to look down at his hand to be reminded of what color he was. I'm sure there are a lot of white people who make it very, very difficult for any black person to relax and let the more idiosyncratic, nuanced elements of their identities emerge. And what we see in each other is often just the reflection of our own fears and prejudices. But what I see in the Obamas, and many other (especially young) black people today are people who are entirely comfortable with who they are as black Americans, but who are beyond seeking any particular validation for that part of their identity, because they are self-confident enough (justifiably) to put themselves out there to be judged on their merits.
But what I see in the Obamas, and many other (especially young) black people today are people who are entirely comfortable with who they are as black Americans, but who are beyond seeking any particular validation for that part of their identity, because they are self-confident enough (justifiably) to put themselves out there to be judged on their merits.
George42,
what would make you think that Blacks of other generations didn't want to be judged on their merits? That's all they wanted, and it didn't happen.
This whole ' make me comfortable Black people' BS is just that. I know I sound awfully strident, but it's not my job to make White folks comfortable.
I went through all the classes that I did to earn my degrees on my own. Did it usually being the only Black person in them. So the days of me trying to make White folk feel comforable are so gone.
I'm tired of folks trying to get around that Barack Obama is Black.
That Michelle Obama is Black.
. . .
And realize that whatever you think is positive or good about them - guess what, especially in Michelle's case - it was nutured by the BLACK community.
. . .
It's time to accept the whole and entirety of Black Humanity.
The problem with this, especially in his case, is that it wasn't just the black community that shaped and nurtured him. It was the white community, and the Hawaiian community, and the Chicago liberal community and a dozen others. I suppose we can go on listing all of them, and fighting about which should be listed before the noun (President/American/politician).
The alternative is to acknowledge that the combination (black/white/Hawaiian/SouthSide) adds up to . . . "American."
I'm not really arguing the big point, either way. This is a unique case, especiallya as to Barry. The normal rules may not apply, and assumptions may need rethinking.
In any event, Michelle Obama is fine, black, American, smart, and First Lady. All of them are true, valid, and important. All of them should be recognized as the situation merits.
I'm just not sure I agree that talking about how hot Michelle is, without expressly acknowledging her blackness, is "bullshit."
I know that the Jackie Robinson analogy has been beaten to death, but do you think a "lesser" black couple could have done what they did? It's not that it couldn't be done by any other couple, but the way that they did it, is unprecedented. I think that is huge for america, AND huge for the black community.
I have never disagreed with the Jackie Robinson analogy. Yes, the Obamas were THAT GOOD - because they had to be. Yes, they didn't have any baggage - BECAUSE THEY KNEW THEY COULDN'T HAVE ANY. Any Black person just shrugged, when listening to some Whites bullshit about ' they can't possibly be real', knowing damn well that's the ONLY way The Obamas had a chance - AT ALL.
If Barack Obama had the ' baggage' of John McCain - he never would have become the Democratic Nominee - period.
Cindy McCain was a Thieving Junkie Ho. If Michelle Obama had been JUST ONE OF THESE - I didn't say all three- JUST ONE - it would have been a disqualifier for Barack Obama.
Black folk knew this. They had to be ' perfect', because even common flaws would not be acceptable.
What, so now you are trying to make them feel uncomfortable? Just be.
In a previous life, I used to be a literary manager for a regional theatre. I read about 500-1000 new plays a year. Whenever a playwright said that they "write plays to speak to the insert aggrieved group here experience", I knew the play would suck.
Why? Because they were trying to make a political point rather than tell a story first.
Perhaps there is a parallel to what George42 was saying in this. I am perfectly happy to let people be people, but when the conversation starts with a chip on the shoulder, however it got there and regardless of the legitimate beef, tension ensues.
And I knew Cindy McCain was a thieving junkie; but ho? What did she trade for those pain pills, anyway?
If you're talking about a double standard, then you're absolutely right. There has always been a double standard, and not just for black folks. For Asians, Arabs, Latinos etc. The black standard has been a little different than the others, probably because the others were immigrants...just darker, but blacks have the heritage of slavery.
Yes, the Obamas were THAT GOOD - because they had to be. Yes, they didn't have any baggage - BECAUSE THEY KNEW THEY COULDN'T HAVE ANY.
This though i don't understand, are you saying that they puposly avoided anything controversial, or that they actually where that normal (the whole O'reilly point is quite perfect for this situation...."see, they do eat like us").
Cindy McCain was a Thieving Junkie Ho. If Michelle Obama had been JUST ONE OF THESE - I didn't say all three- JUST ONE - it would have been a disqualifier for Barack Obama.
If Michelle had even been Laura Bush with the drunk driving accident, this wouldn't have happened. But then again, there was that pastor (i don't get why he's controversial, but then again, i'm not white in america). And there was that guy from his past, the unrepentant terrorist. Obama did have baggage, i know, it's nit-picking, but the charges were brought up, and they were vetted. But the thing that never made them stick wasn't that they were "minor" issues, the thing was that when the pastor issue came up, obama spoke on it like his life depended on it(I call it, the "oooh no, u ain't taking this from me...this im MY TIME!"-moment), he charged at it, because he knew he was righeous in his cause. And when the "terrorist"-charges came up (the, "are u kidding me"-moment), he responded intelligently. They threw everything they had at the Obamas, but they came out on top. The thing is, those two issues, could have swayed some votes, but they didn't, because the upside of the Obamas where to great!
Black folk knew this. They had to be ' perfect', because even common flaws would not be acceptable.
I don't know if it was a media narrative, or a real thing,...but wasn't it black folks who first didn't look at Obama because he wasn't "black enough", and then still wouldn't give him a change, because they thoguth white people wouldn't vote for him?
I think Michael Eric Dyson had a couple of good points in this clip.
he gets going after 2:00.
sry, i think i broke my brain past midnight...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kffR9mqTTG0&feature=related
Here in the Bay Area, we run into people from all over. I'm sure this happens in New York, too. Anyway, sometimes you'll look at one and think, Oh, Japanese, or maybe Persian or Arab, or Chinese or Filipino, or black.
Then they open their mouths and talk to you, and sometimes you think, "Oh, product of American schools." That IS America. It's what we are, even those of us who are white had people that came her from somewhere else, and once spoke a different language. And I count British English as a different language. We can understand it, but we know it means they aren't from here.
There are two categories of people in America for which the story is different. First, the Native Americans, who came here so long ago, they don't remember it. And the black Americans, who didn't choose to come here.
Those of us with light enough skin can go through a day without thinking of ourselves as "German-Americans" or "Irish-Americans" or whatever. I don't think you get that privilege if you're darker. Everywhere you go, everything you see reminds you that you are just a little bit different. I think the way to deal with this is not to run away from it, but to embrace it and move on.
TNC is black, not like me. But he's also a comic fan, and a WoW player, just like me. And his blackness and experience of alienation also allows me to identify, just as "ghetto" and "trailer park" kind of map to each other.
That's the way forward, from what I can see.
And I knew Cindy McCain was a thieving junkie; but ho? What did she trade for those pain pills, anyway?
What do they call a woman that sleeps with another woman's husband in YOUR neighborhood? In mine, she's a HO.
Like I said, if Michelle Obama had been the 2nd Mrs. Obama, with a backstory like the McCain's -
OVER.
I’m curious to know what you think of works by Toni Morrison, Alice Walker, Richard Wright, Ralph Ellison. What about Pulitzer Prize-winning Junot Diaz (to be more contemporary)? I think these authors are great storytellers who can and do make universal statements in their work. They are also authors who very much so engage with racial/ethnic identity politics, although not exclusively. Are you saying politics and art are a no-go?
I would have gone for bitch, personally. And Cindy is not responsible for the promises John made. And to be blunt, you have no idea what would have happened if Michelle had been the 2nd Mrs. Obama. Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, and for certain we'll never know.
And for this:
There are always exceptions, but I think that most great writers think of the story first and let the politics flow from that (I wouldn't know for certain, not being a great writer myself).
I love all the writers on your list except Morrison, I always found her pretentious beyond words. And the key word in what you said wrote was "universal". The Invisible Man still blows me away. I'm not Black, but I can relate to being ignored, dismissed, and put down.
Also, and this is more of a dig at me than anything else, great and good playwrights get produced, bad ones send their shit out to regional theatres in the hopes of getting a workshop.
Obama did lose to Bobby Rush, for whatever that says to anything we're discussing.
Obama did lose to Bobby Rush, for whatever that says to anything we're discussing.
Best thing that ever happened to him.
He had to learn how to regroup from a loss -POLITICALLY- which is something Hillary Clinton knew nothing about-as her own candidate (I'm not talking about Bill Clinton's early loss in Arkansas). The lessons learned from that loss served Obama well.
"This though i don't understand, are you saying that they puposly avoided anything controversial, or that they actually where that normal..."
No, I think the point that Rikyrah was making is that for the Barack and Michelle Obama to exist in this period of time, they had to be close to perfect in their personal life. If they weren't, they wouldn't exist on this level. It doesn't matter whether they tried to avoid controversy or not. The only way for them to be in this position was to be this good. If Michelle Obama had the history of Cindy McCain, it wouldn't matter because we wouldn't know who Michelle Obama is. If Barack Obama had gone to schools like Sarah Palin, it wouldn't matter because we wouldn't know who Barack Obama is. They had to be this good. These things are unknowable, but they appear to be pretty obvious to me.
"the Barack and Michelle Obama"
"The Barack"???
Sorry, I wasn't trying to make him sound like a robot and divorce him from his blackness.
And to be blunt, you have no idea what would have happened if Michelle had been the 2nd Mrs. Obama. Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, and for certain we'll never know
Ok, sure.
Sure, that if there had been a 1st Mrs. Obama, and the story had been just as the McCain's...
SURE...they wouldn't have made an issue of it.
SURE...we wouldn't have known every intimate detail of it.
SURE...the 24 media circus wouldn't have devoted as much time to it as they did Rev. Wright.
SURE....the link to Barack Obama's ' character' wouldn't have been made.
SURE....the clear positioning of Michelle Obama as THE OTHER WOMAN would never happen.
SURE, this would have been treated the way that they treated Cindy McCain.
Come on now.
See, as a Black person in America, I just wouldn't have had the nerve to write that. Cause nothing in my experiences to date would have made that even a possibility.
There was already an obvious double standard with regards to Barack and Michelle Obama and everyone else.
If they had taken the rectal exam approach to the joke that is Sarah Palin that they did The Obamas, the election would have been over October 1st, for she would have been fully exposed for the incompetent, unqualified fraud that she is, and this would have been example number 1 as to why John McCain should never be President.
But, um, ok, Michelle Obama would have gotten the Cindy McCain treatment.
Uh huh.
Good points rikyrah. This is what so many white people fail to understand, and its also why the people who shout "CONFORM!" to minorities from the rooftops always piss me off. Our ancestors would have GLADLY lived in a society where they could have been treated in a color-blind manner and allowed to advance on their own merits. It didn't happen for literally over 300 years, so naturally we developed our own culture and communities and identity. NOW all of a sudden we have to look/talk/sound like whites to make them feel "comfortable"? GTFO.
I don't toss my "blackness" in anyone's face--including black people--but I won't hide or change part of me for anyone.
This argument about 'we don't know what would have happened if Obama had the McCain marital baggage'..
actually, we DO KNOW.
What took out BOTH of Obama's main opponents in the Senate race? (Hull and Ryan)
Problems with their ' marriages'. Those problems looked askew of societal 'norms'.
So, if those problems were good enough to knock out two White candidates..
The likelihood of a Black candidate surviving is close to nil.
No, I think the point that Rikyrah was making is that for the Barack and Michelle Obama to exist in this period of time, they had to be close to perfect in their personal life. If they weren't, they wouldn't exist on this level. It doesn't matter whether they tried to avoid controversy or not. The only way for them to be in this position was to be this good. If Michelle Obama had the history of Cindy McCain, it wouldn't matter because we wouldn't know who Michelle Obama is. If Barack Obama had gone to schools like Sarah Palin, it wouldn't matter because we wouldn't know who Barack Obama is. They had to be this good. These things are unknowable, but they appear to be pretty obvious to me.
Thank you, Stacy.
The amount of time removed from the marital issue certainly has something to do with it as well. Its not always apples to apples. Although I generally agree with you...
I don't think that ANY politician could have survived what happened to Jack(?) Ryan. Although I suppose its possible that a 70 year old Barack Obama might have been able to afford being on his second marriage.
As long as that second marriage wasn't with a white woman!!
I never said that an issue wouldn't have been made of it, as T-NC says, argue with what I actually wrote. I didn't say that he wouldn't be attacked but that we don't know if it would have worked. The dude survived just about ever scurrilous attack known to mankind and survived, maybe he would have rode this out also.
SURE, if what Cindy McCain did happened this year rather than in 1993, it wouldn't have mattered at all.
McCain was a regional player back in 1993, not a candidate for President. He and his family were subjected to exactly the level of scrutiny appropriate at the time. 15 years later it was a known story, not something new, which is what the press is most interested in.
Have you read the exit polls? Did you see the Couric interview? Good God in Heaven, did you not see Tiny Fey? How much deeper do you want that rectal probe to go? Take a look at Sully's blog for exactly how deep one can reach. Exactly what obvious double standard are you referring to? The same one that the Right says was applied to Sarah Palin or a different one? Please elucidate.
Rikyrah:
I don't think you're being strident -- you're absolutely right to say that it's not a black person's job to make a white person comfortable. Im not laying this all on black people; as I said, white people's discomfort is often just a reflection of their own fucked-up attitudes about race. I was just trying to explain why white people think it feels like progress when successful black people (plug in your own definition of "successful") do not self-identify primarily in racial terms (a "black writer" or "black lawyer" rather than just writer or lawyer). Perhaps, for some white people, that feeling is a reflection of a negative attitude about black identity, and it's understandable for black people to be suspicious of it. But for a lot of us, it's just relief at not having to think so much about racial identity as the thing that informs everything else -- it's just one thing among many.
It seems to me that a decrease in the level of white racism and an increase in the level of black self-confidence would naturally go hand-in-hand. I think this may be an historical moment where the latter is actually succeeding in pushing the former. And that's a beautiful thing.
Sorry to cause such a hoohaw, TNC. It was very hard to tell from your original post if you actually liked the picture or not. I obviously loved it.
The fact that Michelle is black is actually one of the least important aspects of her to me. What is incredibly exciting to me is that she and Barack are the first political couple that actually remind me of myself-- the only ones who actually seem to have lived a life like mine (and like the lives of most of the people I know). She is a hard-working woman, struggling with two careers and family, she has a intellectual but pragmatic view of life, she is happy, happy, happy with her husband, who seems to adore her in a very practical way. She is a woman-- this is both a positive and a negative in life-- who is a strong person, who is not afraid of showing she is a woman.
This may not sound important to you, but this is an issue that many career women have had to fight with through the years. Women my mother's age thought women had to act like men in order to be taken seriously-- witness Hillary Clinton and her "male" style of dress in the primary, her "tough guy" image that she cultivated. My generation of women wanted to be strong and successful, but we wanted to do it as _women_, not modified men. Michelle shows that this new paradigm has triumphed, and that women are much freer to be successful as themselves.
Whew. A long reply. I guess the main point here is that we all project our own images onto people that we admire. For you the fact that she's black is outstanding. For me, the fact of her femininity stands out. What a wonderful woman.
I thought of two things that might effect this:
1) I try to not refer to people by their color (as in the MadTV sketch mentioned) because I wouldn't want anyone to think that that's the main thing I attribute to the person. I'm not saying that one's race shouldn't be an important part of anyone's life, but as someone who firmly believes in trying to see all aspects of a person, I'd be horrified to act as though someone else's race is the only thing about them I think worth noticing, as opposed to one of the many things that make them who they are. So I try to avoid it for that reason.
2) Too often the phrase "an amazing black X" has been used to mean "amazing for a black person" instead of "amazing and a black person." Trying to avoid even a hint of the first meaning is another reason people might react the way TNC describes.
As a Latina with olive skin, I get tired of being asked where I'm from. Implicit in the question is the assumption that I'm a foreigner and American = white and and everyone who is not white is an Other. When I answer that I'm from Brooklyn, I sometimes get the follow-up, "No, what's your nationality?", I'll respond that I'm American since I was born in NYC. The really ignorant people will persist in asking about my family tree and that's when I'll tell them that they need to examine their concept of what an American person looks like.
The thing is that I would very happily talk about my Latino background if I hadn't been made to feel like an Other first. Also, I cut some slack and respond differently if the questioner is Latino, Asian, Arab because I assume that they get the question too and they're just trying to establish some commonality.
So, I guess my point is, stop asking us where we're from. We're Americans, period.
I don't think that ANY politician could have survived what happened to Jack(?) Ryan. Although I suppose its possible that a 70 year old Barack Obama might have been able to afford being on his second marriage.
As long as that second marriage wasn't with a white woman!!
On that, we agree. If Obama had been married to Snowflake, he never would have gotten into the United States Senate, so the whole Presidential thing would be moot.
"Also, I cut some slack and respond differently if the questioner is Latino, Asian, Arab because I assume that they get the question too and they're just trying to establish some commonality."
Well that seems kind of messed up. Some people are just curious and looking to get to know you. Don't assume every white person is making an assumption about you just because you've dealt with a number of assholes in your day.
"Stop asking us where we're from..."
You should probably be careful talking on behalf of all non-whites. It seems to me that maybe the Latinos, Asians, and Arabs that ask you that question might not mind when the same question is asked of them.
All too true, and the fire would have been coming from everywhere on that one.
@ Rosali
My favorite response that I have heard:
'My mama says I come from heaven'
@KT
Good points on 1 and 2. Personally, I think that placing a descriptive adjective like 'black' or 'white' or 'female' or 'male' trivializes the accomplishments of the person being described. It really doesn't relate all that much to the accomplishment. Obama worked hard to become president. He didn't do any work to become black. But maybe I'm all mixed up.
KevDog,
1. She was in line to possibly be President of the United States...and wouldn't do a PRESS CONFERENCE. She wanted to possibly be Leader of the Free World, but couldn't answer questions from the Press?
2. The whole 'mystery' surrounding the Down's Syndrome Baby. Barack Obama had to produce his BIRTH CERTIFICATE, but this woman, whose story surrounding the birth of this kid- that she pimped harder than Tyrone did his best $10 HO, was fishy as hell. She couldn't produce her MEDICAL RECORDS?
3. The entire ' I have foreign policy experience because I can see Russia from Alaska.' This is Hillary Clinton's Tuzla x100.
4. Michelle Obama has her patriotism questioned and raked over the coals, because she said the simple truth about being 'really proud of our country for the first time in her adult life', but nobody questioned Sarah Palin's patriotism, even though she's married to man WHO BELONGED TO A SECESSIONIST GROUP FOR SEVEN YEARS.
SEVEN YEARS.
5. Barack Obama has his patriotism questioned because he won't wear a frigging flag pin, but nobody questions Sarah Palin's patriotism for GIVING AN ADDRESS AS GOVERNOR TO SAID SECESSIONIST GROUP IN #4. And didn't challenge the possibility of her membership in said SECESSIONIST GROUP.
Maybe you know a lot of folks that belong to SECESSIONIST GROUPS. I don't, and don't believe that membership in one of these groups is ' accidential'...that you don't know what the group is REALLY about.
6. I saw those same frigging clips of Rev. Wright in continuous loop for weeks. I saw the media harass and harangue Trinity United Church of Christ.
This woman belongs to a church whose teachings would be seen as FRINGE even among evangelicals.
That welcomed, as a preacher, one that is considered an Anti-Semite, and they had it on tape.
Then, we have the Witch Hunter preacher, and all his shadiness.
I just didn't see the same 'attention' given to THEM, that I saw given to Wright and Trinity UCC.
7. Name me ONE LIE that Obama told as repeatedly as Palin did on The Bridge to Nowhere and was allowed to get away with it.
8. The continued pretense that this woman, under any circumstances, was qualified. I said it before, and I'll say it again: Nobody Black who was that inept, who was that absurd as a candidate, would even be given the pretense that they were. Just doesn't happen.
9. Look up the Lies of Sarah Palin over at Sullivan's. He's one of the true media heroes during this election season. And, where she is concerned, they can almost be counted on one hand.
in HS a female friend of mine, blond, told me, "you and [chinese kid] are my best ethnic friends." i dont know how much she was joking, it seemed like she sort of meant it, as a compliment. but that always confused me. white people, you have ethnicity too! even if you're all mutt-ed up, you can trace it and probably know it. be proud of it!
sorry, that was kind of dopey in its obviousness, you guys aren't kids on this here blog.
As I said, I welcome talking about my background if I think that it's approached in a friendly way and someone wants to genuinely talk about different cultures, backgrounds, etc. Assuming that I'm not American is not friendly to me. If that's the first question, we've gotten off on the wrong foot and that person needs to try a different approach.
Here is a different topic that I'm sure will be addressed many times in the future and will provide much fodder for TNC posts. Condi Rice and Alberto Gonzalez are widely perceived as failures by the leftist community and by others in the mainstream. It is understood that their disastruous policies were in furtherance of the Cheney/Bush agenda and that they were loyal soldiers. No one has said that Condi/Alberto acted in such a way because they are African/American or Latino. Because their mistakes are tied to Bush, they are "white-washed".
My fear is that when Obama or one of his African-American cabinet officers makes his/her first mistake, (and there will be many), it will somehow tied to their Blackness. If Eric Holder makes a mistake, he's doing so in the service of the Black President, so therefore, it's a Black thing. It'll take a whole different aspect from all the shady shit that Alberto Gonzalez did for Bush.
Rosali, my (white) cousin and I once laughed about how people in new york would always ask where we were from. if we'd say alabama, they'd usually say, 'but where are you FROM from.' like that changed the question somehow and we were going to launch into some dissertation about the great migration to appalachia. but our answer stayed the same.
we just figured it's something people do in some parts of the country. it was certainly new to us, though.
My fear is that when Obama or one of his African-American cabinet officers makes his/her first mistake, (and there will be many), it will somehow tied to their Blackness. If Eric Holder makes a mistake, he's doing so in the service of the Black President, so therefore, it's a Black thing. It'll take a whole different aspect from all the shady shit that Alberto Gonzalez did for Bush.
Yep, but the thing is, they all know it. They are under no illusions, which I guess is a good thing.
We will truly have 'overcome' as a country when a Black Sarah Palin can be nominated for Vice-President. Until then, deal with the rules as they are.
I don't know if the following possibilities have been mentioned, but I'll mention them anyway.
I have a congenital disability that renders me dwarfish in height and unable to walk. When I was described as "the disabled kid who won X academic contest", "the disabled young man who graduated magna cum laude", etc it bothered me a bit. I felt like an unspoken assumption was that disabled people are almost inherently losers, or stupid, and goodie for me I wasn't either thing. Although that concern doesn't really apply to your usage. If someone with my condition said they were inspired by something I did and I would feel different about that. However seeing white journalists say "so-and-so black person did something great" does make me feel squicky. Maybe as a white person I have no right to feel that way, but it does give me that "Isn't it remarkable, one of them is actually a success" feeling.
Still as that one doesn't apply to you I guess the other concern might be possession. Many whites who voted for Obama I think also want to feel connected to him. Mentioning his blackness, or *Michelle's I guess, could be seen as saying "he's for everyone, but he's a bit more for us."
*I find this weaker because you don't really vote for First Lady and both of Michelle's parents are black.
There's a version of white liberalism that says "welcome to a seat at the table." It's better than "go eat in the kitchen," but still a mess.
The problem (of course) is that white Americans never owned the table.
The conscious intent is generous. The unconscious assumptions are ridiculously self-centered.
It's a shared house, built by shared effort, and the white people at the party have to get over acting like they're the hosts.
The next eight years should help a lot with that (though human folly, including the distinctly vanilla versions, can be astonishingly resistant even to the most vivid of evidence).
Rikyah,
I get the feeling that you haven't read what I've written very carefully. Try again.
KevDog,
We will agree to disagree. If just a third of the MSM had taken the approach of Sullivan, I'll say it again: the race would have been over October 1st.
Above all else, it was the pretense that Palin was qualified - THAT was the most insulting of all of this. It's one thing to know about White Privilege. It's quite another to have it shoved in your face in the personage of Sarah Palin. Her obvious mediocrity- THAT is the rub that scrubs raw for me.
And even post-election, the MSM won't fully admit how patently unqualified she was, because to do so would be to invite the question: if she IS this bad, then why the hell didn't you tell us clearly during the campaign? And, they don't want to be held responsible for their malpractice.
"Her obvious mediocrity- THAT is the rub that scrubs raw for me."
Yet doesn't it give you some satisfaction that such a large amount of people were able to recognize this? 60% of the people were able to admit that she was terribly unprepared. The only ones that weren't were the 40% that are voting Republican every election. Most of them were even lying to themselves. And they know it.
I think your last paragraph nails it. Even now, they can't admit how ridiculous her selection was. It would make it too obvious that August-November was a charade.
More than anything, I think most mainstream media outlets are invested in keeping the race close.
What's with the commenters calling Cindy McCain a "ho"? I'm guessing if someone called Michelle Obama that he'd be deleted forthwith. Keep it civil, people. Calling any woman a "ho" is misogynist and classless. It says less about the woman, and more about you.
Yet doesn't it give you some satisfaction that such a large amount of people were able to recognize this? 60% of the people were able to admit that she was terribly unprepared. The only ones that weren't were the 40% that are voting Republican every election. Most of them were even lying to themselves. And they know it.
I'll only say this..
Thank goodness for women.
Women saved us from Sarah Palin.
Women were onto her from the word GO.
ok Fred, just for you. I'll clean it up.
So, what will be?
'Piece-on-the-side'?
'Man stealer?'
an oldie, but goodie - THE OTHER WOMAN?
You decide.
The town I grew up in in northern suburban Chicagoland exists as a separate entity from the rich(er) North Shore towns to the east of it because of Catholic Latinos and Eastern Europeans from Chicago. Growing up, literally all but three of my friends were first or second generation immigrants, largely from Britain, Germany, South Asia, and Korea. My neighbors were old Mexican retirees who lived in nice houses on our lake. The popular kids at my school were overachieving Filipino honor student/theater kids.
I'm not saying this to get my White Guy with "Diverse" Friends Cookie. I lived a profoundly privileged life. I knew exactly two black people before I graduated from high school: the family lawyer and my grandpa's sailing buddy Chuck.
I called people F.O.B.s up until my freshman year of college without understanding that it was considered a slur and not a point of quasi-ironic pride. Asking where someone was from was an assumed; immigration stories were social currency we all traded in. Growing up hearing these diasporic stories is what has driven me to study biogeography and genetic/cultural evolution in college. I owe a great debt to my friends and town for being able to be a part of those stories.
I didn't realize until recently the potentially isolating nature of asking someone where they're from. Growing up with families that shifted citizenships with each job transfer, it didn't occur to me that being considered American was an especially big whoop (another indicator of the extent of my privilege).
I don't ask anymore, because I have no intention of adding to the emotional burden of having people constantly imply that you somehow don't belong. Maybe it's white guilt, maybe it's growing up so close to the immigrant identity epicenter of Chicago, but I never understood why someone wouldn't jump at the opportunity to tell their proclaim their ethnic heritage and tell their family's migration story. Heck, I tell mine, even though being a generic colonial-era Euro-mutt manages be provide a tale that is dull while giving the air of condescension ("oh, you're people came over AFTER the Revolutionary War? How positively charming!"). I think we're losing something in this reticence to ask or share these stories. As a nation derived from the blending of African and Eurasian ingenuity with First Nations political savvy, we depend on this interchange to drive our culture.
I dunno. I guess I want to learn a way we can share these stories multilaterally, without either risking the stagnation of shutting down this dialog out of politeness or forcing someone to be a spokesman or woman Their People.
Man, I really sound like that? I'm sorry, guys.
TNC, you're already a great writer. Don't sell yourself short.
@rikyrah
I guess what i'm saying is that your'e not wrong, but i personally see them as more than just representatives of the black middle class...
to me personally (and alot of other immigrants), Barack is a big example of immigrants percevering. To women, Michelle is a great rolemodel and a soon to be icon. To black people, their both a reassurance that shit has changed a little bit (just a little bit) since the last time a black person ran for prez, and a great example of the big black middle-class that been there for a while now.
I'm saying, they're all that, and a bag of chips!
@Fred
rikyrah might have overreached on the whole ho-issue...but my slut-o-meter goes of the chart when ever i see her on TV. Point is, Cindy Mccain is NOT Michelle Obama....
I just had this Nerd Love moment in response to this picture.
http://cache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/obama_11_05/obama09_16602245.jpg
What a great thread. Thanks to one and all.
Rosali - I've had enough of being asked where I'm from, too. I'm white, but I speak with an European accent, so I only need to open my mouth in a public place and, bang, there we go.
I work in academia where pretty much everybody is from somewhere else and has made several long-distance moves to get from there to here. We have a very matter-of-fact approach to it. I'm from here, you're from there. Fine. Now let's move on to the real subject of the conversation.
But when I'm being introduced to "local" white people who speak without accents, it's a whole different conversation. So where are you from? Wow, how amazing. Is your family still there? Do you visit them often? Are your parents still alive? What about your siblings? Have they visited you here? Are they planning to move here to join you?
The thing about that is, I would consider it impolite to just start questioning someone I don't know about their close family, unless they had first signaled a willingness to discuss the subject. Families are complicated and you don't just push the conversation in that direction without giving the other person an out. Besides, would your adult siblings and their families follow you if you were to move to a different state? Didn't think so. Immigrants are normal people just like everyone else, with complicated private lives that we don't always want to discuss casually. It's not all Big Fat Greek Wedding, all the time.
But ducking questions can be hard for those of us who are "not from here." If my response to "but where are you originally from" is "originally, I guess we all descend from African monkeys," my interlocutor will not necessarily get it that I would prefer to change the subject. More often, they rephrase the question again, making it even more difficult for me to find an out. I don't always know whether it's because they assume that I didn't understand the question, or because they think that they're actually entitled to an answer. In the end, what tends to work best is "I don't want to go into that right now, if you don't mind," Obama-style.
I don't mind talking about my background when it's relevant to the context. I also understand that people are curious, they may be looking for a commonality, and they generally mean well. But I'm tired of having the same conversation over and over again every time I leave the house - especially when this prevents or distracts us from having another conversation that I do actually want to have.
Hope that this explains a part of the problem. It's one thing to ask casually where I'm from; it's another to not accept the answer I offer ("I'm from here") and insist on keeping the conversation on the subject, against my wishes, long past the point where I would rather talk about something else.
Rikyrah: "Name me ONE LIE that Obama told as repeatedly as Palin did on The Bridge to Nowhere and was allowed to get away with it. "
'I will cut taxes for 95% of taxpayers.'
I HAVE READ MOST OF THIS SHIT ON THIS WEB SITE UNTILL BLACKS HAVE THE BALLS TO DEAL WITH GENETIC EQUITY 50 /50 ISIM BLUE EYED BLONDE BLACK PEOPLE CREATED IN USA THEN YOU CAN NOT BLAME THE WHITE MAN FOR THIS VEIW OF OBAMA. THERE IS NO POLICY DEMAINED OF YOUR RACE.,BY YOUR RACE. YOU ARE SUCH LIERS.FREEDOM IS THE RIGHT TO SAY 2+2=4 UNLESS THE FACTORS ARE BALANCED THEN THE OUT COME CAN NOT BE BALANCED.THE RESULT OF THIS IS RACE WAR.