He decided he belonged to the "community of humanity." I asked him whether that smacked of Tiger Woods' description of his biracial identity, which some blacks saw as a rejection of the black community.Again, I don't agree with the Tiger Woods thing--though, at one point, I really did. We're all maturing here. A big part of that is to privilege actual people, instead of the essentialists on both sides, in the debate over their identity.
"My view has always been that I'm African-American," he said. "African Americans by definition, we're a hybrid people. One of things I loved about my mother was not only did she not feel rejected by me defining myself as an African-American, but she recognized that I was a black man in the United States and my experiences were going to be different than hers."
At the same time, Obama says, when he takes his daughters to Hawaii to visit his grandmother--his mother is deceased--they visit a little old white lady from Kansas.
They also spend time with his pregnant half-sister, who's part Indonesian and married to a Chinese Canadian.
"My daughters will grow up with a cousin who looks entirely Asian but who carries my blood in him. It's pretty hard not to claim that larger community."
« The question of Cablinasians | Main | A bad sign for Bobby Jindal » The definitive rebuttal to this stupid, stupid, stupid discussion30 Nov 2008 11:59 am
Props to Nichelle for digging this up. I really, really hate this debate. It makes my skin crawl. But here is Obama talking about identity:
Comments (59)
Here Obama says what I was thinking when I read Marie Arana's commentary today. To me, it seems she thinks Barack is being reduced to being just a Black man. She talks about all the different backgrounds of Latinos in the Americas but doesn't acknowledge the hybrid backgrounds of Blacks in the Americas. She also talks about Hispanics awareness of this mixed background as if it's only positive when darker skinned peoples in South America face the same struggles as darker skinned people have always faced in America & around the world. Brazilian "whites" say there was no racism until affirmative action came to their major university there. Bwahahaha! 
Reading T's comment reminded me of my experience reading some of the comments on the barackobama.com blog during the primaries. There would always be the occasional poster who felt the need to advise those calling voters to emphasize that "Obama is half white!", as if that made him "ok". It is skin crawling.
T, I'm like you I hate this debate, my feeling is everyone has the right to define themselves how they see fit, but now that it's here I'll comment. 1. Anecdotally (recognizing I don't know either of them personally) I think Woods and Obama are miles apart on this issue. I think Obama truly does see himself as a black man and that "community of humanity" is him being coy, I'm too lazy to check but I would bet donuts to dolllars that quote is from early in the campaign. 2. I, like most absolutely love Tiger Woods, but at the same time have long since recognized he doesn't have an affinity for the black community (which is NOT defined as thugs and gangsters as some may think.) Again THIS IS SPECULATION, but ever since the cablanasian description I got the feeling that Tiger wasn't so much embracing the other parts of himself as he was disembracing (if you so allow my made up words) his blackness. Again, this is just me, but I actually think the reason Tiger doesn't see himself as black stems from him growing up in a white racist sport, where as a kid he saw his color as an obstacle, one which he could do nothing about. I don't care how strong a father you have or how mentally strong you are (which he obviously is) that plays apart. I'm mean the guy was a member of the Stanford golf team in the 90s...the 90s and STILL getting treated crappy. Conversely, Obama spent a lot of his formative years in various locales, and by all indications his interaction (unlike Tigers) with whites seemed to have been the exact opposite. O's Mom/GParents (white) seem to have embraced him as black, which wcould give a young child the silly notion that it's okay to be black. k1
I hate this debate too. That's why I think it is important to respect how mixed people define themselves.
Exactly, my lady is mixed, Black father, German mother, and she identifies as Black. She looks like a light skin Latina to me but to other people she looks like whatever they think they see. She's been assumed to be just about every race or nationality in the book except for east Asian. Her brother looks like a standard issue White or Jewish guy, he doesn't seem to think of himself as one or the other. Most people assume he's white though he's had to call out of couple of prejudiced mofos in his day. The point of this rambling comment is my girl is just about ready to fight if someone tells her she's not Black but yet it's not because she denounces her German ancestry. She feels disrespected; she doesn't feel anyone has a right to tell her what she should identify as even though what she identifies as is the race she "looks" the least like. She's right.
Hey Nichelle, I think you missed my point. Respect and speculation are mutually exclusive, meaning I can respect any persons desire to self define and also speculate on motive. I think you would agree that as a society we have come to define mixed citizens as black, right or wrong. As such my comment centers, or better speculates, on REASONS why some define themselves to the contrary of widely held norms and why some don't. It's Bushian to conflate opination with lack of respect. k1
TN, I would like to get insight into why you think Tiger Woods was wrong...I equally hate this debate. In a racialized society you must choose...but you know it becomes harder to when you have a strong ethnic sense of who you are. That is when your culture is not shaped by the African American experience alone. Obama's take nails the coffin if you ask me...its all about how you define African American: a hybrid people (meaning the word African American defines your skin color exclusive of culture) or a more cultural definition. The latter being the reality that life in America assures you of. The vast majority who ascribe to the black culture seem to have a distinct way of life. The phrase being in this case "I am like my black brother only as it concerns the skin of our color." To be defined on such basis is I think a crude measure of the human identity. In my view Obama was politically correct in a system that forced him to be. The point is not to sidestep the reality but to point out the inconsistency in this system of racial definition.
K1, I can appreciate your clarification but I was not responding to your comment (I didn't read it). I was responding to TNC.
In essence the argument TNC has raised has little appeal or merit; I would not use the word stupid as its use is too wide spread. It always amaze how this type of discussion center on the level of African or African-American in ones' experience or heritage, and its role in ones' action and rhetoric; the same cannot be said for any other definable group in this country. This is not to suggest that such discussions are not had between and among others; at a basic level it has to do with group differences due to language, cultural factors, etc. For example all the varied Spanish speaking groups, etc. For a change of pace try Alan Keys versus Al Sharpton. Obama accepts the realty; he is as well as a host of others are African-Americans, meaning one parent was born on the African continent, period. On Tiger Woods, regardless of what one may view of him he is more of his father than anything else; no one can accuse Tiger of having animus against the paper-ized deceased presidents, it is about marketing as well as his choice. As some indicate, these issues are not new; perhaps, having a definitive African-American as President of the U.S.A. has forced some reshaping of long held reflexive opinions and beliefs. Employing the construct of acculturation may steer these type of discussion in productive directions. In a larger context, much of this is stupid chasing more or less stupid; it has a lot to do with the distribution of status based on race versus color, and the resulting acculturation and social access. My issue is chattel slavery as in ownership. Some folks cannot get over this chattel thing or control/ownership of property. Too many suffer from others' expectations that their presumptions must be lived and fulfilled, some have called this racism.
It will not matter how many times HE says that HE is black, there are those who seem to be heavily invested in delegitimizing his commitment to his black identity. Like I said in my post in the original thread, these discussions speak volumes about the people who initiate them. So, whatever... I'm with T. When White folks claim bi-racial Pookey that just robbed the liquor store and shot 3 people, then I'll know it's not just about trying to divorce Obama from the Black community. That was a great deal of the animus behind the attacks on Michelle, IMO. She was BLACK. Her slaves were in the bottom of those ships in chains BLACK. All the pain, hideousy, and contradictions to the great myth that is America - BLACK.
don't know if anyone has mentioned this but, I hate this discussion... the thing is, i recognize BO's right to defining himself. Specially when he does it so eloquently. I think someone has touched on this before, but i must say that the reason (probably) for barack's coolness when it comes to this issue, is that he's experienced both cultures, and he (conciously or subconciously) decided to pursue his african roots (can this have to do with the fact that white is still norm in any european society?). He probably looked at his grand-parents, and their lives, and thought that even though, they were of his blood, he had to embrace another part of him to be whole. his grand-parents probably looked at him and thought that it would be good for him as a person. The reason i get pissed over people pigeon-holing people like Maria Arana does, is that she doesn't even understand her own retoric. she thinks that "strict racial categories must go". but at the same time, she thinks it's ok to pigeonhole, not only obama as "post-racial" , but (if im understanding TNC's interpretation correctly) black people as a racially and culturally monolithic group.
""African Americans by definition, we're a hybrid people." this is so absolutely sensible. that must be why folks (not here) are ignoring it. Of course "white" is a hybrid identity too, one crafted in order to fold various ethnic Euro-Americans into a tool used to assert superiority over the free and freed mean and women of color. we're all hybrids, whatever tag you use to feel closer to you.
I'm Irish/Catholic. I look Jewish, and most people assume I am. My hair is VERY curly, and my skin is olive. My 3 kids are black. When we are together, people always feel compelled to ask whether they are "mine". They can't quite figure out whether I could actually give birth to kids who are as black as mine are. And, of course, adoptive kids aren't REALLY MINE. First I bury the urge to poke them in the eyes, and then wonder why my family has somehow become "public property", how our coming to be has suddenly become part of the public conversation. People feel like they have the "right" to your story, to YOU, when you are at all different. It sucks, but I tell myself that each time I tell my story, I am helping to change the narrative somehow.
@renegademom3 Thank you for adopting any child you love, cloth, feed and raise is YOURS. The next time someone asks you that asks them who the hell else's would they be and if they know someone who's looking for them so they can do all of the stuff that you do for them? They should get the point after that. God Bless.
I don't hate this debate... I just think it's kind of silly; as a mixed race person, I identify myself as black (African American,...I gues. But I come from back when black was beautiful). My sister does as well. But we're also Swedish and German and grew up in very white suburban neighborhoods. So it's just not simple - we have lives of privilege that many people, many black people, do not have. That matters too. It doesn't matter what I think, though; thanks to my tan skin and dark hair, often curly, though now I straighten... I am not white. However much I fit into the majority culture in other ways... I am not white. I have also been told I am not black, and/or not black enough. And as someone noted of his lady above... I have been called everything. Literally. That, as much as anything has colored my views of steretypes and prejudice - I know, from experience, that everyone, white or black, is capable of them. As I am, too. We judge first, and too much, by what we see. And it's too easy... and it's wrong. It's why we need, desperately, a conversation about race in this country that doesn't make one group all wrong... or another all right. Life is full of complexities. I credit Tiger Woods with teaching me that at times I am too narrow in my definitions; he's right that these classifications and distinctions are, ultimately, pointless. And we can, and should, live beyond them. It's also fair to point out that he moves in a white world of privilege, and it's easier for him, than most, to go beyond these things. But like Barack Obama, I think of myself as black. But like him - more than he may like to admit - I know my identity, and his, is more than that. That's why his election was, for me, so profound: i know what white people think they did, electing a balck man... but I admire black people for electing the mixed race guy... and calling him one of their own. That's a start. And it's what gives me hope.
I am Latina and my husband is African American.Our sons (12 and 13) who are much lighter than Obama consider themselves African Americans.No question about it.We never even discuss it with them.They will tell people their mother is Latina,and are very proud of their latino heritage, but they identify with African Americans.You know why? because even at a young age they would notice how their non-black friends would react when they saw their very dark father.Or, because no matter how "light" they are they have been called n**gers and people are always asking them are you mixed with black?.My Sons at a very young age realized race,culture and color plays a significant role on how people deal with them.They proudly, defiantly , heads up high declare their African American roots and dare anyone to say that they are not black.
The can of worms that multiculturalism has opened has yielded only confusion. Nobody really knows what they are supposed to be respecting in Tiger Woods by his invention. In the end it means nothing transferable. Woods is only mentioned because of his objective talent in a game whose rules have no racial weight. The longer multicultural ethics persist, the more foolish they will become. That is because Woods' story won't be like Obama's and that won't relate to anybody else. We will ultimately understand that people are just ascribing something racial to their own personal struggle and the marginal value of that will continue towards zero - that is for honest people, not for wishful thinkers. James Baldwin once wrote: The irony is that if you do that successfully you have destroyed the ability of anybody's definition of black to define you. You can't go back and call that 'black pride' because YOU DON'T OWN BLACK.
Ok, I am a bit late to this debate, but I will comment anyway (even though nobody is going to respond to my post). As someone who has dated interracially (including people of mixed race), I am not going to comment on the other thread. But, I will comment here. Two points (and sorry about the rambling): 1. This might have been mentioned before, but when people on the internet state that "Obama is half-white," what they are really saying is, "look, Obama's mother is white, and he denies his white heritage. See, he is racist. And by extension, the black community is racist." Maybe I just read too many Steve Sailor posts on Matthew Yglesias, Washington Monththly, or on TNC's blog, but that is the impression that I get when I hear that being said/written. It seems that people think "Blackness," and "whiteness" are mutually exclusive, and that if you say you are black, you are denying your whiteness. Whatever. 2. Ok. I don't really like golf, but I am going to defend Tiger Woods. Unfortunately, I will do this inarticulately, and I am going to defend Tiger by speculation, but I want to point out that this might be a generational thing. Tiger, you see, is my age (32), which means that he grew up in the late 1980's and early 1990's. He probably grew up listening to MC Hammer, wearing Cross-Colors, watching "True Colors" (a FOX show about an interracial-marriage), and listened to groups like "Color Me Badd." In the early 1990's, there was an "one hit wonder" R&B group, whose name I can't remember but it had "Black" in it. It was composed of 4-5 white kids, and they had "black" in their name because, "they did not see the color, but the state of mind" (or something like that). Anyway, to make a long story short, the early 1990's (I guess pre-OJ and Rodney King) were a time of idealism for a lot of people, like me, when it came to racial relations. This is when a lot of people tried to get past racial identities. A lot of people grew up believing we really are one race, we really are all the same, that sort of thing. It was a time when I could be a white kid who wore a Malcolm X cap, purple Cross-Color jeans, Street Hiker shoes, and a leather necklace with a yellow-green-red Africa profile, and, in all seriousness, claim "one love, and we are all of one race." Now, and probably back then, it all looks rather silly. But, at the time, I really believed that. And, I think that is where Tiger Woods came from when he said he was whatever it is he called himself (sorry, I can't remember the name). It just seemed like a product of the times, of being "we're all one race" type of thing.
"Maybe I just read too many Steve Sailor posts on Matthew Yglesias, Washington Monththly, or on TNC's blog...." That guy is whacked, he even has his own website expanding on all the stuff he's talking about. Do not waste your time even reading his comments. He might appear saner than other posters like 24Aheaddotcom, but do not let the literate writing fool you. He's just as crazy as 24Aheaddotcom.
Nichelle, I appreciate that you respect how bi(multi)racial people define ourselves. I define myself somewhat like Tiger does - human and mixed. I don't know what his intentions are, nor do I really care, but in my instance I define it by what I am: I am mixed. I have been asked what I have against being black (just as Tiger has been) and my response is "nothing". To me, anyone who asks such a question is likely suffering from some amount of deficiency of self-worth. I love all of my heritages - none more than any other. I am a proud Welshman. I wear my Irish For O'Bama t-shirt with glee. I speak an African language. In most countries I have no chance of passing myself off as black. In fact, I have to beg to be black in some places (which makes me smile). I can't change it, I wouldn't change it, and I embrace it all equally: I am mixed.
Fighting Words, I hear you on point #1. I don't think that is what Maria Arana was trying to do with her article - she seems more enamored with a vision of a post-racial America than anything else - but take a look at the comment section of her article. A lot of the comments look like they could be written by Steve Sailer himself. Reading the "He's Not Black" headline the first time almost gave me a heart attack - what the heck, did WaPo hire Steve Sailer to write a column?? (The guy is a real writer for some conservative publication BTW, which isn't exactly shocking).
I can't find a link to where that Obama quote came from and nothing is popping up by exploring Nichele's site. Anyone have a source?
The definitive end to this stupid stupid stupid discussion. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIClfAu2MOA
Alexander, See here:
@urk A point that makes more sense is why should we wear tags that have cultural connotation. This is particularly true in the word 'African American'. In the least bit Obama had a Kenyan American experience from his father, a black man. If his father had done the job right I am quite sure his blackness would be all that he would share with African Americans. A cloud of people imagine blackness as equating with the word African American. If you are mixed and your father is a true African American, from a cultural standpoint, then yes you can claim that its really part of you and your upbringing.
When Tiger came up with his own category, that was the road to being done with him. Mama was Asian....Daddy was Black. Like, his Daddy was the ONLY Black person who had more than Black blood in him......Negro, please. How did we come as we did looking from West Africa, to the point where we can range from Ace of Spade to Light, Bright, Damn Near, without us MIXING with someone here along the way. Obama never denied ANY of who he is. Tiger's been running from Black, from Day One. Some Black folks are uneasy with the 'bi-racial' folks, because they always seem to be running from the AFRICAN in them. But, when you create an entirely new category in order to further suppress the AFRICAN..like Tiger did? Well..................
Can't we all just agree that no matter how one looks at Obama racially or how he looks at himself, that it will be nice NOT to have a confirmed intellectually lazy dumbass in the White House? Obama is a serious guy. I could really care less if he were part Martian as long as he does a good job. Look at his picks for those who surround him. This guy is comfortable in his own skin no matter how YOU define that skin.
"When White folks claim bi-racial Pookey that just robbed the liquor store and shot 3 people, then I'll know it's not just about trying to divorce Obama from the Black community." I think this is crucial - although there were a few (mediocre IMHO) black writers who raised the "he's not black" flag, it consistently got picked up by rightwing assholes who were bent on diminishing Obama and attempting to make him appear to be some kind of phony or huckster or, as the commenter notes, to split him from one or another segment of his supporters. This was the flip side of the attacks on him for being "Muslim", etc. Any doubts that could be rasied about Obama's integrity, honesty or "authenticity", the rightwing trumpeted at one time or another.
In the early 1990's, there was an "one hit wonder" R&B group, whose name I can't remember but it had "Black" in it. It was composed of 4-5 white kids, and they had "black" in their name because, "they did not see the color, but the state of mind" (or something like that). Fighting words, you talking about Young Black Teenagers? Of "Tap the bottle and twist the cap" fame? I think I saw them open for Das EFX once . . .
Heh, TNC is certainly posting a lot on this. Must have hit a nerve. FWIW, I think the original article was relatively innocuous. It was just a call to recognize that Obama was bi-racial, not just black. I don't really see that as sooooooooooo objectionable.
Ta-Nehisi, This is probably a dumb question.... If you totally defer to an individual's decision as to whether or not they consider themselves black, then would you disagree with a 14 year old boy with 4 white german grandparents who considers himself black because he listens to hip-hop and feels closely associated with black culture? Or would you say "yes, if he considers himself black, who am I to disagree?" Again, probably a dumb question.
It's true, maybe her whole point is innocuous. However, Marie Arana is smart enough to know that there is a great deal of context surrounding race in this country. She bemoans the fact that "part-black" is "all-black," without acknowledging that most black people in this country are "part-black." Or is it okay in her eyes to call yourself black if you're only, say, 80 percent black. How about 90 percent? She's just stirring up a lot of history and I don't see, from this piece, that she is prepared to even acknowledge that -- because she doesn't talk about why people might want to call themselves black, even if they are of mixed race. People who can choose a label and who do so deliberately tend to have some kind of rationale for their decisions. To her, it's just all a tragedy and a stumbling block on our way to a post-racial world. Whatever. I'm sure she didn't mean to come across as a little bit ignorant, but that's kinda what happened.
Some Black folks are uneasy with the 'bi-racial' folks, because they always seem to be running from the AFRICAN in them. This is really hilarious. There are many many many Black people out there who are not "African American" . And frankly, 90% "African Americans" have NOTHING to do with Africa, never have and never will. That they are Black and someone long ago came here for whatever reason does not entitle a person to claimage of place to which they have no substantive connection. I think "African Americans" are running from the BLACK in them. Look, I work with a lot of foreigners so I look at it differently. We cannot look at the world USAcentrically. I say I'm American, and if people ask further I say my parents are from Africa. They can normally see that I am Black. Look, I'm proud of my background and heritage, (and can even drop some foreign lingo for you), and it's partly made me who I am but is not who I am. That's why I see Obama as fortunate, because he had the opportunity to craft his own identity, irrespective of societal conventions. Jacksonian, as it were. I'm not picking on you, I feel the same for those who claim they are Italian-American, Korean-American, Whatever-Hyphenated-American, and are not from there or have a parent from there, and obviously don't speak the language or have a connection. Heritage ≠ Identity. And people need to be careful not to besmirch the identities of others while coming up with their own. It was awesome being in Europe and seeing Italian people dictate to "Italians" (from the states) that, while they appreciate the nod to history, they are mildly offended by the notion of non-Italians claiming Italian identity, and that the Americans are American and should be proud of being American. I know the last eight years have been rough, but being American is really a wonderful thing.
I also have to say I think the author of this article misses another important factor: Barack and many bi-racial people like being black. They don't see it as a negative. Barack had a choice to stay as far away from the AA community as he did growing up and he didn't. He wanted his blackness and for all of our bitching and moaning about the bullshit that comes with it, most black folks, bi-racial or not, love it too. If I could take a magic pill to make myself white or something else, I'd pass (no pun intended). For some people the choice of Barack and other bi-racial folks is perplexing in this day and age. Why be black if you don't have to be? Oh sure maybe a generation ago you didn't have a choice, but now you do so why not? Why not complete the transition to being post-racial (not black)? Why marry black and more black babies? This woman feels like Barack made himself "blacker" voluntarily and she doesn't understand why on earth he would do such a thing. Maybe someone should tell her it's actually kind of great.
@ rikyrah This is true, but I think there is an important distinction to be made between how most black people are mixed (slavery rand ape) and how Barack is mixed. It's like nature vs nurture. Unlike the traditional experience, people like Barack and Halle Berry were loved and nutured by their white family, or at least immediate relatives. Their mothers and grandparents don't deserve to be thrown into the same heap as Harold Ford's or our great-great "grandfathers". TNC had a wonderful post about that not too long ago when Barack's Tutu died and why there have always been bi-racial black folks and not bi-racial white folks. Some of these folks who are upset with Barack and other self-identified bi-racial black people need to remember who decided not to claim who first.
For some people the choice of Barack and other bi-racial folks is perplexing in this day and age. Why be black if you don't have to be? Oh sure maybe a generation ago you didn't have a choice, but now you do so why not? Why not complete the transition to being post-racial (not black)? Why marry black and more black babies? This woman feels like Barack made himself "blacker" voluntarily and she doesn't understand why on earth he would do such a thing. Maybe someone should tell her it's actually kind of great. Ding ding ding We have a winner. It totally perplexes some folks. You can see it. ' Why does he call himself BLACK?' I still say that Michelle has a great deal to do with it. Why would he CHOOSE to marry Michelle? I've written extensively about Michelle at JJP, and how I used to didn't understand why Toots and Gramps never got their ' due' when it came to Barack - they raised him for a chunk of his life, and I thought it was obvious: Columbia that they more than deserved their ' props'. Then, it came to me. Michelle. Michelle erased all that away, and ' negated it'. For, if Gramps and Toots had ' raised Barack right'... then what's he doing married to Michelle? I then stepped away from that, because I didn't even want to try and understand folks who had that line of thinking.
ao? In most circumstances, that boy would need to grow up a bit. Imagine, however, that he was abandoned by his parents as an infant and a black family from the 'hood took him in. He grew up alongside his black siblings and their black friends - and keep in mind that kids can be very sensible about such things when not instructed otherwise by parents. So, one fine day our boy finds out that his parents and grandparents were all German. How does that make him German? Most likely, he doesn't even speak the language. There's plenty of things that can define our identities - not just our parents' heritage, but also our upbringing and the choices we made once we were able to make them. On the one hand, it's a nuisance to have to explain our stories to everyone we meet. On the other hand, those who are not used to meeting people with complex backgrounds will often take the easy way out and go with whichever of the long list of words describes me - in their uninformed and superficial opinion. People with complex backgrounds don't choose their identities frivolously. We think about it long and hard. We ask that you respect our choices.
@rikyrah Oh it's always been about Michelle. As soon as I realized how much she solidified his standing with black folks I knew what it also meant for some white folks. Any slip into his "blackness" has been blamed on her. Several commentators even said that she probably pick the Rev Wright's church even though Barack knew him before he knew Michelle. It's always been. I think I voted for Michelle as much as I voted for Barack. I never thought I would for a first lady but I damn sure did this time.
This is true, but I think there is an important distinction to be made between how most black people are mixed (slavery rand ape) and how Barack is mixed. It's like nature vs nurture. Unlike the traditional experience, people like Barack and Halle Berry were loved and nutured by their white family, or at least immediate relatives. Their mothers and grandparents don't deserve to be thrown into the same heap as Harold Ford's or our great-great "grandfathers". TNC had a wonderful post about that not too long ago when Barack's Tutu died and why there have always been bi-racial black folks and not bi-racial white folks. Some of these folks who are upset with Barack and other self-identified bi-racial black people need to remember who decided not to claim who first. I disagree with you, because such distinctions are used as an excuse to ignore whole swaths of American history.
Man up MoFoco. This discussion is never going to go away.
By: By Hazel Trice Edney, NNPA Editor-in-Chief You see who Obama was addressing right? How Obama said "this community, OUR community, the African Americans community.When Obama discuss the problems facing the African American community you see he said "OUR kids are more likely to drop out".
I don't think that the important issue of self-identification is a stupid discussion for us to have. Obama referred to himself as a "mutt" not as a black man. He's biracial. He's not more black than he is white. I have had this discussion at my blog. I have mentioned that it is so ignorant for blacks to TRY TO tell other blacks how individuals can define themselves. Tiger can call himself "Cablanasian" if he wants to. He does not have to obtain PERMISSION from blacks to come up with his own definition of his ancestry. He does not have to DENY any part of his ancestry. Many blacks THINK that if a black person embraces all parts of his/her ancestry, it means that they are denying their blackness. Pure ignorance! How can blanket assumptions apply to the decisions of every single black person?? How? Perhaps SOME blacks are attempting to deny their blackness for various reasons...it does not mean that EVERY black person who acknowledges all aspects of his/her ancestry EQUALLY is renouncing the black part of his/her ancestry. The other issue that keeps cropping up is that I have encountered many blacks who think that ALL of us with similar complexion have the SAME ancestry... no we all do not...some of us are part African and part Chinese but have brown skin ...some of us are part African and part Latino but have brown skin...some of us are part African and part Native American but have brown skin. Brown skin does not reflect ONLY African ancestry. It's ignorant for anyone to assume that. I listened to the argument of "well in America, it doesn't matter what your ancestral make up is, you will still be considered black!" And THAT is the justification people give for renouncing their ancestral background...just because others will not acknowledge their ancestral background that they may as well pretend that they have no knowledge of or acceptance of it? Pure ignorance. This is absolutely a discussion that is worth having...
Oh man, Fred is back. Do not engage. Ignore. Ignore.
I wonder if Barack Obama was just an average man not President-elect walking down the street how many people would say "there goes a white man or "there goes a bi-racial man?" I wonder if Barack Obama the average man can hail a cab in NYC? Barack will call himself a mutt, mixed, whateva because he is a man who knows that is EXACTLY what some people want to hear.It that makes those who say "but he is half/white " or those that are afraid of the black man more "comfortable"with his win. It's working, you see. He is not so scary anymore, is he? ;)
@ Fred Obama is not going to 'drift' anywhere and especially not to 'post=racial'. If you doubt that you need look no further than Michelle, Malia and Sasha...to drift would be to deny who they are. His big prize is his loving wife and those adorable girls...nothing tops that and I say that with certainty given how Barack has spoke about them, who he is and what race means to him in the context of our racially polarized society. Perhaps, you may wish to listen to his Philly speech again or read the passages in Dreams for My Father where he speaks about race. With regard to his cabinet picks, I do not think you should consider Obama as having 'migrated' to the center based on his choices. Obama is a master strategist and a brilliant politician gifted with the intellect to take disparate pieces and opposing views and build a consensus to move forward with. Obama selected these right of center folks, so that they could SELL, his policies. Recall, he told you he sets the plan and his team executes. What Obama has done, is create a cabinet of experts who have creditibility with the right such that when they speak for him and execute his plan the right will listen to them. See Obama has no expertise or credibility in the areas his cabinet picks are lauded for. What Obama has is a plan of change which they will need to sell. What better voices and spokespeople than those who are already accepted as knowledgeable with great judgement on the right. Do you see what I am getting at? Bush&Cheney used Powell in the same way. Americans did not see Powell as a warmongerer or neocon saber rattler...so he was chosen to sell the Bush warplans...Americans trusted Bush and Powell was a good soldier. One other outstanding facet of what Barack has done is he has hired all the 'so-called experts' to work for him. Where will the opposition find a spokesperson with credibility? Think of the beauty in that...they all work for Barack either in his cabinet, on his advisor board or as part of his staff. So who will speak for the otherside that has any credibility? Obama is smart as hell. Sooo, Obama will use the same B&C strategic and tactical manuevers to bring the change he has told us we can believe in. Watch and see. Have faith Fred...his O-ness is more awesome than words can describe.
@BlackWomenBlowTheTrumpet You don't make any sense. Black people didn't force Obama to identify as anything. He sought us out. He moved to the South Side of Chicago, he chose a black and very Afrocentric church and he chose a black wife. He made a concious choice while at the same time claiming his non-black family the whole way. His self identificatiton as black didn't deny his family anything at all. None of us denies his white side and most of us wish his family were alive to see him be President. As far as other mixes go, Tiger Woods has every right to claim the Thai culture he was raised in and his daughter her additional Swedish ancestry, but he's never been that important to black folks anyway. Most people inevitably define themselves how thy see fit and good for them. And no brown skin does not only mean African ancestry, we do have mirrors and look at ourselves everyday, but let me ask you this: Do you know your Native American acncestors? Can you name a tribe? Have you seen pictures of them?Do you know that fewer then 8% of all AAs really have NA ancestry and most of us who claim to have "Indian in their family" are wrong? Do you know your white ancestors? Did they want to know you? For most AAs the answer to that question is "No". It's not just about what you claim or what claims you, it's also about actual experiences and I don't know a damn thing about being white or NA and i think those cultures deserve more respect then to be claimed by me when I haven't walked a block let alone a mile in their shoes. Based on geneology I'm part Irish and part Cuban, but I don't know anything about being Irish or Cuban. I'm African-American. That's my experience and my culture and no amount of non-African people falling out of my family tree will change that. I suppose I could call myself an AfroIriCuban, but that would just be stupid. And since when are we the only people who give mixed race people grief? We can't even tell who they are half the time because they look like non-mixed black people. I think the lady doth protest too much.
My perspective on this topic comes from my Jewish background. Being Jewish is a religion and an ethnicity. There are people of mixed heritage and non-Jewish heritage who make choices as adults to marry into the community or join Jewish communities as individuals. This is seen by non-prejudiced people as admirable. I see Barack Obama as someone who had a choice about his ethnic identification. He made a deliberate choice as an adult to affiliate with an African American identity and community by marrying Michelle, by joining her family, by raising black children, by working as an organizer in a black community, joining a black church. I see that he made that choice, and respect him all the more so for having made a choice.
Having been raised in a Latin-American country and being of mixed ethnicity, I don't claim to understand the intricacies of black/white racialism in America. I've made peace with the fact that I'll never be able to understand Americans' racial obsession, and that's OK. But still, it's hard to read some of these comments without meta-analyzing and going "holy shit!" Anyway, I don't really have a point to make, just felt like I needed to acknowledge how creepy and bizarre this whole debate seems to my non-native mind.
My best friend from childhood had one black parent and one white, and it hadn't occured to me before this thread to wonder what she calls herself. Made me reflect on this human desire to label everything, and if something doesn't neatly fit, we go crazy.
@Fred
It's all profoundly narcistic.....and as boring as watching paint dry.
@Izabella, I see what you mean by your example of a scenario of someone obviously white but with an upbringing in a black family. So some white people can be black people if they have some specific backgrounds to explain it. But are some white people claiming to be black people be wrong about their claims even if they earnestly believe it? For instance, if you met a real life Ali G., who claimed to be black despite having no background to justify his claim, you would agree with him that his feeling black makes him black?
@rikyrah: I disagree with you, because such distinctions are used as an excuse to ignore whole swaths of American history. This argument may have gotten too abstract for me, because I'm not sure what you mean. Doesn't making that distinction acknowledge that the nasty swaths of American history out there? Or are you referring to other bits of history, and I'm just not following? I learn a hell of a lot from your posts most of the time, so if you catch this, I'd love some clarification.
"I really, really hate this debate." I don't understand why there is a "debate"...? Racial identity is by definition a personal matter. If Tiger Woods identifies himself as "Cablinasian," then so be it. Who has the right to challenge him? There seems to be a rigidity to the way we view race. Many of us are no longer a single check box. But we treat each other that way. It's a little weird. If we're okay with people from different races falling in love and having babies together, then we should be okay with those babies identifying themselves as mixed, or whatever and however they feel. To force our ideas of racial identity upon them is strange, wrong, and unnecessary.
I'm not picking on you, I feel the same for those who claim they are Italian-American, Korean-American, Whatever-Hyphenated-American, and are not from there or have a parent from there, and obviously don't speak the language or have a connection. Heritage ≠ Identity. And people need to be careful not to besmirch the identities of others while coming up with their own. Some of us oldtimers from the 60s and 70s always thought that being American was a unique identity of its own, because the social and cultural issues of growing up in America as a person of color were unique to that group (though sharing similarities with other groups).
I disagree with you, because such distinctions are used as an excuse to ignore whole swaths of American history. This argument may have gotten too abstract for me, because I'm not sure what you mean. Doesn't making that distinction acknowledge that the nasty swaths of American history out there? Or are you referring to other bits of history, and I'm just not following? I learn a hell of a lot from your posts most of the time, so if you catch this, I'd love some clarification Well, when I ask the question of how Blacks went from being what you can see in West Africa, to how we are our own rainbow, I'm not joking. The answer to that IS the underbelly and darkness of slavery, and the legacy of it. Too many White folks act like it happened through osmosis, when the truth of the matter is something that Black people deal with today. Get 2 Black people married - they can hope about what their children will look like, but better not place too much certainty on it, because anything can happen. Any variations of the gene pool, from him and her, and any combination can come out, as it did with my maternal grandparents. My grandfather would have been perfectly home in Scotland or Wales, and nobody would have said anything about him. My grandmother was black ' as the ace of spades'. Between them, fifteen children, ranging from the deep chocolate of an uncle, to an aunt, who could have easily passed for a red-headed White woman. The uncles would laugh, recounting the numerous times that they would up a hair's breath away from a policeman's trigger, because 'the law', thought that there had to be something wrong with those 'Niggers' driving around with that ' White woman' in Mississippi, Alabama and Tennessee. I know my family is not unusual. That genetic roulette often happened in Black families, and sometimes the consequences weren't positive. Colorism is a whole other post. It's the pretense that Barack Obama having White blood is so unusual which doesn't fly. Making him 'special' ignores the deepest parts of America's ' Original Sin' that reaches back hundreds of years.
It must be weird to have someone assume you are something based on skin color or some other feature. I could not define myself if I had to. I probably need to work on that. If you are out there and reading this, let me knock a few things off the list: -product of a bad family. No! It is a weird situation when you can atone by being yourself. I swear I have written this before, but if I have not give me a little time to open up and be a little above average.
Sorry, please ignore or delete my comment. It is time for me to visit a therapist.
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It will not matter how many times HE says that HE is black, there are those who seem to be heavily invested in delegitimizing his commitment to his black identity. Like I said in my post in the original thread, these discussions speak volumes about the people who initiate them. So, whatever...
T.
Posted by T. | November 30, 2008 12:33 PM