The question of Cablinasians

Commenter AMT writes:

I haven't seen a thread here on interracial marriage/dating. I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the subject.

OK, let's go. I've never dated interracially. When I was younger, and much less mature, I said I'd never do it. No that doesn't quite go far enough, I claimed that black men, specifically, should stick with their own:

I know a couple of black men who are honestly in love with white women. They've dated black women before, but this is who they fell for. But those who manage to shake off the cultural conditioning are rare indeed. I stick with black women, not because of any aversion to white women, not because of any "Nubian princess" mythology, and not because I think crossing the line would necessarily conflict with my politics. I stick with black women because I wonder, in this climate, if an honest relationship with anybody else is possible. I stick with black women because I know how men (black and white) routinely use them for toilet stools. I stick with black women because I know to do anything else, whether I meant to or not, would be to become an accomplice to that crime.

Oh man. So young. So ideologically pure. What happened to me? I wrote that right after I turned 22. I had just become a professional writer. And I was pretty stupid. Not stupid like, ill-read, but in those days, I didn't understand the limits of ideology--namely that it can say so much about the world, and yet so little about your life, or your neighbor's life, or the girl on the train's life.

I am ten-years deep into my relationship, and here is what I know--a long term relationship will make pragmatists of us all. It is hard to find someone you even enjoy sleeping with, much less live with. But please indulge me in that former point for a moment, while I  deliver a message to the youth who are of age: When you're talking about long-term, you better enjoy it. Not cold pizza enjoy it. Not Big Mac enjoy it.  But hot apple pie with ice cream--after you just smoked a blunt--enjoy it. What's that TV On The Radio joint?

Oh but the longing is terrible
Gentle heart under attack
I wanna love you all the way off
I wanna break your back.

Fuck what you've heard. Until those lyrics mean something to you, keep looking. Sorry, back to our programming...

Look it's hard enough to satisfy the basic carnal needs--it's even harder to satisfy those needs, and satisfy the basic emotional and mental ones too. There is a good chance that your long-term relationship will one day fail. A great way to up the chances of truly epic fail, hot grits, I'm talking hot grits fail, burn down the mansion fail, is to shrink the pool of your potential partners.
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Look, my name is Ta-Nehisi. I've been black all my life, and look forward to remaining that way until I'm in the dirt. My woman is darker than me, and hasn't permed her hair in over a decade. All that said, if I was back out there I'd adhere to this maxim--Motherfuckers need to do what they feel. Your blackness will not do the dishes. Malcolm X, God bless him, won't keep your woman off your ass when you forget about that PTA meetings.

I understand how being a man colors this. Black women who oppose interacial dating have different reasons than most. I think it's closer to the manner in which some Jewish women must hate the idea of a Shiksa. But even that doesn't quite get it. The opposition comes out of a specific, and yet broad, historical experience of never being held up as anyone's flower of virtuosity, but instead as un-feminine and oversexed. The coping mechanism is an alternate world--here in Harlem, in the pages of Essence, on the campuses of HBCUs--where there are no white people and the historical baggage is gone. When you see a black man with a white woman, that alternate reality is challenged.

So how do black women beat history? How do you by into the game, knowing that the game is, indeed, rigged. I think you start by seeing yourself as more than a response to oppression, as more than a place on the totem pole, as an individual. With that in mind you go where your individual predelictions take you, and you date whoever you find there--regardless of race. It's true that there's a sector of society intent on not allowing you your humanity. But you don't want to date those people anyway. So what does it ultimately matter?

Comments

Race is a social construct. There is only one race the human race. Date who the heck you want. If you dont like it don't do it. And if you do go for it. When we start seeing each others as a individual or a human being we will allow ourselves to develop relationships and experiences we would have never had. I am a AA female who is of multiethnic. My homeboy's are German, Mexican American, gay, Bi, etc. My husband is AA (soon to be ex), my mom is Afro Cuban and my dad is AA and Irish. My Nana was AA and Irish. My Grand father is from Islands, my Uncle is Jewish and I could go on. I have cousins who are AA and Native American. I have the best food in the world and my family reunions are a trip because we play Salsa, Calypso, Meringue Reggae, rock, old school R&B and hip hop. Now my husbands family are just ignorant mo fo's here in Tennessee I am sure everyone has those backwoods types. Anyway I urge people especially sista's not to hate on anyone. Stop placing limits on love and yourselves and go out there, date, marry and find true happiness. There are brothers out there of any "race" that appreciate the beauty of the AA woman. And my AA brothers if you see a sista out there who is dont hate. Go out there and find love for yourself.

Posted by Ann | November 30, 2008 12:15 PM

Just curious, could TNC or anyone else explain the reason why black women oppose interracial dating so strongly? It's something I've never understood, and it has often messed up my attempts to game (American) black girls.

Posted by Ninja Zombie | November 30, 2008 12:19 PM

Oh, T-N. You really WERE young and silly, weren't you?

I used to be into that whole "black loyalty" tip, then I realized that black men weren't feeling that whole thing as much as I was. So I got over it. Of course, the bad thing about being in DC is that there's a million beautiful black women for each black man, and it's not as if the white guys are exactly lining up to date black women (and some of us make it hard for the white guys, so they get scared.)

Posted by Christina | November 30, 2008 12:35 PM

"Just curious, could TNC or anyone else explain the reason why black women oppose interracial dating so strongly? It's something I've never understood, and it has often messed up my attempts to game (American) black girls."

Meh, I don't know if black women oppose interracial dating anymore than white woman. To the extent that they do though, consider their relative place in society. Women always have a hard time, because dudes are stupid. But in the black community dudes are likely much more to be killed, jailed, or have a criminal record.

You might say, "Well fine, date outside that community." And I'd agree--but understand how much of an extra-burden that is. Imagine if, to find a date, you had to always go to, say, the Latino side of town. What you're getting from black women isn't so much an objection to interracial dating, as a resentment at a kind of unfairness in the competition for partners. This says nothing about beauty standards, either. But I think that gets at it.

Posted by Ta-Nehisi Coates | November 30, 2008 12:36 PM

"[A] long term relationship will make pragmatists of us all."

Amen to that, brother.

And I think we should all be excused for any grand proclamations about human behavior made before we've had a chance to examine another person's behavior up close and at length.

Posted by Cash | November 30, 2008 12:37 PM

As a AA woman I can tell you in MY OPINION its the unspoken black community loyalty contract..

Since slavery Black women have been the back bone of the AA community and it continues today where AA women are the heads of households in 70% of African American families. My female ancestors were the mom's, wives, home makers and primary care takers of the AA community when their families were ripped apart by slavery. Imagine seeing your children and husband ripped away from you moving from one plantation to another. I believe it started from there. It's a cycle like poverty. This mind set has been passed on from generation to generation. Why do you think you hear about AA women marrying and in 70% of cases procreating with AA men who are not of the same social status and educational level as they are. My mother in law is a Nurse and hooked up with a two time felon. I asked her if she would ever date other people and she said no because she is loyal to "her" community. My sister in law who has a degree hooked up and had a kid by a high school drop out. They sadly have the same mentality. Was it bad choices, it could be. But I think they chose to limit their options because of the contract. Btw, there are wonderful AA men out there. When we see that the contract is expired and that even AA men are not abiding by this contract AA women will date and marry others in greater numbers.

Also there is a thing where AA women are told by media and even our friends and family that we are not beautiful so other men may not want us. Even my ignorant husband said so when we had a debate one night. I know its not true but many folks have never left their neighborhoods so they do not know this is not true. We just got to get out of our cocoons and fly. Just my 2 cents and experience and it isn't worth much.

Posted by Ann | November 30, 2008 12:51 PM

@Ninja Zombie

In a nutshell, it primarily has to do with the fact that white beauty standards, which we are deemed farthest from, are held up as the ultimate form of beauty and just about everyone falls prey to it. Some black women, see black men dating interracially as buying into those white beauty standards. It's rejection on top of rejection. It's black men also seeing white women, any kind of white woman, as the "ultimate" women to have. It of course denies the individual woman and not all black women feel this way, but there is truth in it. Even in the AA community the harse legacy of slavery has left a preference for light skin and "good hair". See just about any rap video or a recent documentary that has little black girls prefering white dolls to black dolls. Ut strikes at the core of where many women get a part of their self-esteem which is being deemed as a desirable mate. No other group of women has had this aspect of themselves targeted and attacked the way that black women have.

That's part of what so many black women like about Barack Obama. unlike many high profile black men he didn't go for the typical light skinned or white woman. Michelle Obama is a brown skinned woman. She's undoubtedly black which is where many of the attacks leveled at her came from. If Michelle Obama looked like Beyonce or Halle Berry she would not have been depicted as an Angela Davis wannabe on the cover of the New Yorker or accused of being "angry". It was all about the "unequivical blackness" that was about to be First Lady.

She's beautiful, but it's a beauty so often unrecognized. I have often wondered if Barack would have seen that if he grew up in the AA community with the same kind of bullshit other AA are brainwashed into believing about black/white beauty. That's what a lot of black women love about Denzel Washington too. His wife is also dark-skinned. For many black women their marrying, and obviouly adoring dark skinned black women seemed refreshing because it seems rare, at least for prominant AA men. I could say more but I just woke up. Maybe later.

Posted by emma | November 30, 2008 12:52 PM

We'll know we've achieved a "post-racial" society when members of minority groups can date whoever they want without having to navigate these political swamps.

I mean, does any white heterosexual *ever* have to explain a preference for white heterosexuals? Do white heterosexuals who date interracially have to navigate through the whole history of that ethnic group to decide whether a given person is acceptable or not?

Sheesh. Maintaining a relationship is hard enough without layering centuries of historical baggage on top.

Posted by Katherine | November 30, 2008 12:54 PM

What I find fascinating on the whole interracial dating tip is that if a male in my family dates a White woman, there is controversy and a bit of a dust-up initially. But, when a woman in my family dates a White man, there is very little comment on it.

My family is (surprise) very matriarchal. And there is something stinging about a man who has been raised in this family chosing to be with a White woman. There is an initial sting and a sense that one of the "prizes" in this family has been tarnished.

Posted by tql317 | November 30, 2008 1:00 PM

My daughter is a freshman in college and just started dating an AA boy. I haven't met him yet but I am just as prepared to dislike him as every other boy she's ever dated! Her generation seems pretty cool about the whole thing, but I do worry about her reception among AA girls. My father was married to an AA woman and he said he got massive grief from all the women in her family. My next-door neighbor is an AA man married to a white woman from England. We live in a white suburb of Boston called Wayland. He worries about his daughter catching abuse from AA girls once she gets to middle school. Something about the nature of her hair (length? texture?).

Posted by Critical Mass | November 30, 2008 1:34 PM

Excellent points, all. But, let's get to the real question: What's your take on hook-ups between male tauren and a cute gnomes with pink ponies? I mean, every male gnome seems to think that the ponies are part of his personal polygamist love sect; hitting other races is just expanding the field. And noone seems to care. But when a gnome goes gaga over a nice stud, all sorts of stuff hits the fan. Not just the Horde/Alliance thing, but the whole "why do you want to get involved with a race that only wants to warstomp you" questions. I mean, everyone acts all cool in Dalaran or Shatrath, but if you want to go to that inn by the mailbox in Ironforge, it's nothing but trouble.

Also, not to continue to derail this thread, but how's the leveling going? Did your BELF get a haircut?

Posted by Monstertron | November 30, 2008 1:42 PM

TNC: "Meh, I don't know if black women oppose interracial dating anymore than white woman."

In my experience, black girls care far more than others. Certainly more than white girls. An anecdote:

Back when I was in college, I was dating a girl from Ghana. When I was working in the tutoring center, I had to deal with a stupid southern girl. My gf walked in, and greeted me with affection. Southern girl actually used the term 'nigger lover' just before angrily leaving.

My gf, laughing: I think she liked you. Too bad you like dark girls, nigger lover.

(note: less than a year into the US, she only heard 'nigger' from black americans. She knew the racist meaning, but only in the abstract.)

Me: It isn't that, she just doesn't think white people should date black girls.

Gf: WTF, I didn't know any white people cared.

I date chicks of other races all the time, and I think I've met about 3 white people who cared. On the other hand, when I try to work a set of american black girls, odds are about 1/3 that the mother hen will block me by openly telling her girls to avoid white guys.

(The rest of the time I'm shot down because they are lesbians, or perhaps are intimidated by my good looks. )

As for going to the other side of town, I can easily imagine it. Like everyone else in NJ, I cross the river to meet women. And beauty standards? Those exist in the head attached to your neck, but that's not the head I'm thinking with when I chase women.

Posted by Ninja Zombie | November 30, 2008 1:47 PM

@Critical Mass

Your neighbors daughter has whats called "good hair" or non-kinky African hair. Long story, but it's from slavery. She will catch some grief, but she'll be fine in the end. Many black people have this texture of hair without having a white parent like my mother does. It's part of the internalized racism or colorism that we still suffer from, it's about competitions from boys who will like her more because she looks closer to the prevailing white standard of beauty. Again, see any rap video.As a kid I got teased for having big lips and now I love them and they are my most complemented feature so she'll be ok. I have to say it gets on my nerves to see Angelina Jolie be declared the "most beautiful woman in the world" for having a feature that most black women have naturally.

But trust me, it would be harder for her if she had short, kinky hair and dark skin. We give it to both ends of the blackness spectrum. We're mean to light kinned and dark skinned girls. Maybe that's who she should make friends with. They can share their rejection experiences.

Posted by emma | November 30, 2008 1:51 PM

"And beauty standards? Those exist in the head attached to your neck, but that's not the head I'm thinking with when I chase women."

Well sometimes we womenfolk forget that you menfolk for the most part like anyone who likes you. All races of women needlessly obssess about our looks and that men often don't see anything "wrong" with us the same way that we do. Once I learned that I was much happier. Learning that most mean actually don't care about a little cellulite on your ass and that they just see an ass was quite a relief.

Posted by emma | November 30, 2008 2:04 PM

"But please indulge me in that former point for a moment, while I deliver a message to the youth who are of age: When you're talking about long-term, you better enjoy it. Not cold pizza enjoy it. Not Big Mac enjoy it. But hot apple pie with ice cream--after you just smoked a blunt--enjoy it."

Thanks for the advice TNC. I'll keep it in mind. Also thanks for the post.

I've heard people say, well black people anyway, say something to this effect: "Since you were raised by a black woman, dating a non-black woman is an insult to your mother because your choice is saying that a black woman wasn't good enough for you." This always irritated me for a number of reasons, one of which is the fact that some other woman is in some way the receipient of the respect , love, gratitude, etc. my mother earned. How does that make sense?

Re-reading the above graf I realize that it might not make sense to anyone. Sorry. Don't know how else to express it.

Also, I know my mother would prefer if I came home with a black woman, but based on the last conversation we had on the subject, she just wants me to be happy. It's funny, because I can remember her saying several different and conflicting things about interracial dating over the years.

Posted by AMT | November 30, 2008 2:12 PM

Do white heterosexuals who date interracially have to navigate through the whole history of that ethnic group to decide whether a given person is acceptable or not?

Here's an interesting sort of Rohrschach test on WF/AAM relationships that I've noticed:

When I'm with AA women and Spike Lee's Jungle Fever comes up, they all talk about the scene where they're discussing skin shade and white standards of beauty (the awesome, brilliant "high yella" scene). When I, a white woman, tell them that the other scene I'll never forget is Frank Vincent nearly beating his own daughter to death in the family living room, I get the same response every time: to a person, no AA woman I've met can recall that scene ever being in the film.

Once, in an interracial dating discussion, I said that I don't think I could date a Black man in good conscience for exactly the reasons many here have posited - basically, as a white woman, there are plenty of eligible men in my own racial dating pool, and there are so few eligible AA men for Black women. A male AA colleague was very offended by this and said that I was merely covering up my own racism. So, you know -- date black dudes, get the sistas on my back, don't date black dudes, I'm poking eye holes in my pillow case. Sheesh, us white chicks can't win. :)

Posted by zacksback | November 30, 2008 2:20 PM

A little reality check. African American women are the least likely group to marry interracially. The 70's paradigm says it is because of standards of beauty and such, when in reality they are simply more socially isolated than most other groups. They are the least like to encounter appropriate suitors (financially and intellectually) both inside and outside of the race.

Interestingly, the narratives in the black community tend to favor black women/white men over black men/white women. For instance in the AA community, is that there is no female equivalent to the idea of the "Cool ass white boy." While it is not a total pass, it once the white male passes that standard it is a much more acceptable relationship than anything I've seen occurring between black men and white women.

Posted by Domonic | November 30, 2008 2:26 PM

Well sometimes we womenfolk forget that you menfolk for the most part like anyone who likes you.

This is so true. Of course there are the shallow asshole guys out there, but they are a very vocal minority.

I have had one relationship with someone outside my ethnicity, she is latina and she still remains the most special person in the world to me outside of my daughters.

Posted by DougEMI | November 30, 2008 2:35 PM

Zacksback: I said that I don't think I could date a Black man in good conscience for exactly the reasons many here have posited - basically, as a white woman, there are plenty of eligible men in my own racial dating pool, and there are so few eligible AA men for Black women.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've read in weeks. Please tell me you're kidding.

If not, I'd say: don't worry about black women. We'll be fine whether or not you date black men. If a black dude is going to date you, he a) has no problem dating interracially, or b) isn't checking for black women in general. Either way, it's on him, not you, or us.

Now, if you can't handle the side-eye you're sure to get if you're dating a black man, then just say that.

Posted by shani-o | November 30, 2008 2:36 PM

Most people marry someone of a similiar racial background. However, black men and Asian women are apparently more likely than people of other races to marry someone who does not share their racial makeup. (even though that likelihood is still relatively small)

So to me, this means that black women and Asian men should focus on hooking up. I'm ready to be a test subject on this. :-)

Posted by Christina | November 30, 2008 2:36 PM

The beauty standard thing. It confuses me. I understand the idea of people being saturated and conditioned by images considered beautiful by mainstream society or whatever. What doesn't sit well with me is that at some point each individual has the final say on what they consider beautiful Whether they feel free to admit it or act on it for whatever reason is a different story. Matching the beauty standard doesn't automatically guarantee and individual will be perceived as beautiful. For instance, I've seen in person, on TV, movies, magazines etc. a large number of women who I think everyone would agree fall in line with prevailing white beauty standards, but I didn't find them attractive. Am I in denial on just how far the conditioning can go?

Sorry about the rambling. Trying to watch football and participate in this discussion.

Posted by AMT | November 30, 2008 2:44 PM

I dont live in the US, so i'm probably not in the "know", when it comes to this issue...but as a professional inter-racial dater...i feel that this is more of a generational issue...what say thee?

Posted by Bruce | November 30, 2008 2:49 PM

You're a little bit in denial, AMT. But that's okay, your heart is in the right place. I don't think you're acknowledging how conditioning works. Personal tastes do play a role. But there's a reason why Rihanna is considered more of a fantasy sex object than, say, India.Arie.

This is the world in which we live. And, since I more like India.Arie than Rihanna, (though really not much like either of them) I know where I rank when it comes to prevailing beauty standards. It's all right, though, I know that there are guys out there who are looking for someone just like me. :-)

Posted by Christina | November 30, 2008 2:52 PM

Christina,

What am I missing about the conditioning? Can I just say that its absolutely galling to be aware that the choices I make as to who I find attractive (based solely on visuals) may be less of a choice than I would like to think.

Well sometimes we womenfolk forget that you menfolk for the most part like anyone who likes you.

I agree. That the person you're dating actually likes you is worth more than is often acknowledged.

Posted by AMT | November 30, 2008 3:04 PM

Nature knows no color. One of the reasons I believe white supremacist racism is dying is it's inability to confound desire. No matter how you raise your child he or she may one day find themselves locked in that hungry stare with someone not their color but in the 'desire' and no amount of cajoling or threat will be able to break that most natural pull.I remember being at that party in college when I saw her and she saw me. I didn't see black and she didn't see white and yes we may have been naive but we knew nothing would get in our way.Especially vain political and cultural notions of what was allowed.

Posted by Judson | November 30, 2008 3:09 PM

As a Black woman who has dated interracially, the reason why Sistas don't hassle other Sistas when they do, is because we believe that the Sista has gone through an entire 'process'. For me, it took 4 or 5 years before I'd actually accept an offer for a date from a man who wasn't Black.

And, we don't see that kind of hesitation from Black men. They don't seem to have any qualms in leaving the community.

Why do Black women have a hard time with it? I think the above posters have answered it in pretty good detail.

I'll only add that another rub, is that more than often, the Black man is dating a White woman who isn't remotely on his level. Tiger Woods married a fucking NANNY, for pete's sake.

I have never seen a White man, of any sort of substance, who is dating inter-racially, and that woman- Asian, Latino or Black- doesn't have her shit absolutely together - on paper. He's not bringing no Nanny home to meet his mother.

And, as someone pointed out above, a great deal of the reason why Black folks gave Barack slack, and ' the benefit of the doubt' is because of Michelle. For a lot of Black women, all they needed to know about Barack Obama came wrapped up in who he chose to marry and bear his children.

Posted by rikyrah | November 30, 2008 3:16 PM

AMT:

AMT:

"Can I just say that its absolutely galling to be aware that the choices I make as to who I find attractive (based solely on visuals) may be less of a choice than I would like to think."

That's all I'm saying. Who and what you find attractive may be less of a choice than what you'd like to think. (I'm using "you" in a general sense, here.)

I don't like it either. But conditioning, at its "best," is so subtle that you don't even think of it as "conditioning." You just think of it as what is "right" or "normal" or "proper." Once upon a time, people were conditioned to believe that women were inferior. They didn't consciously think that -- it was just how the world worked, and all that they saw proved that was true. But we've moved beyond that, to some extent.

Posted by Christina | November 30, 2008 3:25 PM

Since my dismissive initial reaction to the "interacial dating question" ("It's 2008! Not 1958!") got the too obvious response about how this is still an "issue" that merits discussion because various folks still have varying attitudes, I'll just say, as a white guy very happily married to a black woman (and who "dated interracial" as long ago as the early sixties in high school in the midwest and didn't give much of a fuck what folks said about it then), I truly don't give a shit for anyone who has issues with interracial love affairs. Not even a little bit. It's just too fucking stupid. Observations can be legitimate, but "issues" or serious debates as in "pro/con" are some combination of dumb and presumptious.

We can bandy statistics, we can argue the origin of various resentments, but it's all rear-view bullshit. Any negativity about this fact of lots of folks lives reflects poorly on the person - black or white - who focuses on it rather than their just moving on with their own shit. I understand that lots of black women feel dissed by black men, that there's a shortage of available men, etc. But "debating" interracial dating is counterproductive to resolving any real questions. Trains have left stations, etc. etc. Rates of interracial marriage among men and women of all so-called races, ethnic groups, etc. will increase.

There are, of course, lots of dumb reasons men have for choosing women, and vice versa. Being screwed up around race, beauty standards, etc. can obviously be one of them. But aside from calibrating their own personal choices, this is a fruitless terrain for debate. Of course, it'll sell some magazines, etc. But changes are taking place in the real world around these very questions, and not because the noise level of complaint has been raised but because the culture is getting more transparently complex. Resentments about other people's business aren't going to make anyone more attractive to anyone nor will it broaden the scope of potential personal choices for partners.

Ultimately deeply personal choices are just that. I may or may not agree - but regarding the type of person who articulates a lot of attidudes about such that I find disagreeable or intolerant, my own choice is to have nothing to do with them.

Posted by brucds | November 30, 2008 3:27 PM

Now, if you can't handle the side-eye you're sure to get if you're dating a black man, then just say that.

I said what I did back then simply to see what happened to his theory when the tables were turned. My colleague's input into the discussion was that he would never date a white chick (for several of the reasons T-N mentioned) all of which added up, in his view, to racial pride. When I turned it around and agreed with him (we should stick to our own, you're absolutely right, Dear Colleague) he attributed my response to racism -- sadly but truly predictable.

Now, his reaction was more gender than race-related to be sure: when he The Male was doing the rejecting, it was valid; when myself The Female was doing it, it became invalid. And like many people, he threw up the "you're racist!" trope to conclude the discussion in a way that fit his world view. (Bringing up racism as a last-sentence trump card to conclude debate is unfortunately common, I've noticed. Methinks we need some sort of Godwin's Law to cover this.).

Posted by zacksback | November 30, 2008 3:33 PM

Someone in another thread here pointed out that the female models in men's magazines look completely different from the female models in women's magazines. A whole lot of this "unattainable beauty standards" junk would go away if women had any idea what men actually like.

Posted by Katherine | November 30, 2008 3:38 PM

brucds -- I am truly glad for you and for the happiness that you have obviously found in your own life. But, I don't think it's fair for you to tell people what they should or should not be concerned about. I know that you feel dismissive about this topic and you're allowed to, you've found your own love. And seriously, that's great and awesome. Love is beautiful! But not everyone is on the same path as you, and rather than just being blanket-ly (I know that's not a word) dismissive of it, maybe it's worth trying to listen to those people. From what I'm hearing, you're just telling people to "get over it," and that's seldom a successful way to make a point. Though you say you "understand" the way that black women may feel about this, I suspect that you're just saying words...you haven't said anything that makes me feel like you truly, deeply, understand this, because maybe your words wouldn't be quite so harsh.

Still, I do respect your point that debating this in terms of pro-and-con is silly. Interracial marriage is not right or wrong, it just is; it's not like if we all here come to an agreement that it's "wrong," that it will then stop. So I get you there.

However, I do think it is fruitful sometimes to think about why we make the choices we make. Though I am not sure, I believe that I have had far more conversations with black men who are happy to tell me chapter and verse why they will not date black women, (we're ballbusters, money-hungry etc.) than you have. White women, they say, know how to RESPECT a man. Let me tell you, hearing that shit hurts, and it's not so easily dismissed.

Posted by Christina | November 30, 2008 3:44 PM

@Katherine,

I agree. I've often had the impression that girls/women were kind of clueless when it came to figuring out what's attractive to boys/men.

Posted by AMT | November 30, 2008 3:45 PM

Let me add that "unattainable beauty standards" as a racial category are being laid mercifully to rest as we speak - a fact underlined by the welcome presence of our beautiful First Lady and her beautiful daughters. Again, surely in 2008 we can assert that this stuff is being relegated to the (admittedly not-too-distant) past and focus on moving forward.

Posted by brucds | November 30, 2008 3:51 PM

@ Katherine

I totally agree. It's also true that the people who dominate the fashion and beauty industry are not women or straight men, but gay men. I love my gay brothers, but the "boys with boobs" look that most models and many Hollywood actresses have comes from them. I have one gay friend who calls it "twinks with tits". Maybe we should stop taking our ques from men who like men?

Posted by emma | November 30, 2008 3:52 PM

So as to avoid any (unlikely) confusion - I guess that's "First Lady-elect" for the time being.

Posted by brucds | November 30, 2008 3:52 PM

katherine & emma hit a nail on the head - I've been looking at those skinnyass freaks in women's fashion mags for years and telling my wife if I didn't "know better" I'd consider it some sort of conspiracy...

Posted by brucds | November 30, 2008 3:55 PM

Zacksback: I said what I did back then simply to see what happened to his theory when the tables were turned.

Unfortunately, your social experiment rests upon false equivalence. I saw your initial unexplained statement as condescending, not racist, and I think that reaction from your coworker was an easy out.

But.

It's not the same to say — when you're coming from position of privilege — that you should "stick to our own." Generally, white women who choose not to date black men come from a different place than black men who choose not to date white women. I don't think that either is particularly defensible, but they are not the same.

Now, your mention of the male-female dynamic is interesting. (Also, I find "I'm not racist, I'm just attempting discussion!" to be just as a common as "you're racist!" if not more so. I guess it depends on your perspective.)

Posted by shani-o | November 30, 2008 3:58 PM

Christina - since you "got" my main point, we're not really disagreeing. As for the black guys you're talking about, that's exactly the kind of presumptious shit I'm talking about. They're jerks. I guess my comments sounded too glib and dismissive from one angle, but it's precisely that kind of nonsense on the part of these men that earns it. If I were to single out anybody I personally don't "get" who I actually encounter, it's black guys who harbor the attitudes you describe and I know there's a fair number of them out there. My point - and it's merely advice that I won't try to pass off as "shared pain" at a gut level - is that you're not gonna change these assholes, so maybe a better strategy is to move on and spend any time you save by ignoring these clowns checking out a broader male spectrum. Just a thought. All I really know is that in my personal life I just can't deal with this crap. Including the kind of guys you describe.

Posted by brucds | November 30, 2008 4:12 PM

@brucds

It's not a conspiracy it's just what happens when one group of people dominates a particular industry. They don't mean any harm it's natural that what we deem attractive is what we would present to the world. Hugh Hefner prefers blondes with big (fake) breasts. That's what his "girlfriends" look like and that's what the average Playboy centerfold looks like. It only makes sense that gay men would impose a masculine asthetic into women, therefore less body fat in all of the areas where women are supposed to have fat.

Posted by emma | November 30, 2008 4:13 PM

On reflection, Christina, I'd guess there are several strands in this kind of discussion that need to be untangled. I'm not tolerant of people who are "against" interracial dating. That's a generalization that can't make sense IMHO - but if you're discussing specific negative attitudes toward black women on the part of men, I'm not dismissive. While those issues may influence partner choices for some men, it's a much bigger discussion than "interracial dating" and being "against" interracial relationships won't resolve the stuff you're describing. There are issues raised here that are totally legitimate - I just can't see the "reductionist" version that calls levels it into a discussion about interracial dating.

Posted by brucds | November 30, 2008 4:35 PM

@ brucds

Okay, so let me say right now, I have no problems at all dating outside my race. Guess what? Non-black guys still aren't beating down my door. Of course, some (most) of this can be me and my issues but the point I'm making is, you and others can say "ignore the assholes" and I'd be right there with you. I totally agree, I'm ignoring them. But that's not going to all of a sudden make the broader group of non-black men rush to black women as dating partners. Black women are not the only people who have to change, here.

I feel sorry for the white guys who have tried to step to a black woman and gotten rejected. That annoys me; I wish they had tried to talk with me, first. (Of course, they may THINK that they got rejected because they're white, when it might just have been a convenient excuse.) But there aren't tons and tons of American white men who are doing this. That's why we still find it worthy of discussion. Though as someone said above, it's a generational thing, I think.

Posted by Christina | November 30, 2008 4:35 PM

Oops, we crossposted. Anyway, I do agree, there's lots of threads that get tangled up in one of these discussions.

Posted by Christina | November 30, 2008 4:39 PM

C - those last comments were general thoughts, not assumptions about what you personally think. Appreciate your helping "untangle" this stuff.

Posted by brucds | November 30, 2008 4:40 PM

I'm really glad you brought up this topic, T-N.C., because I've long had a great deal of curiosity about it. I'm white and Jewish, and the parental pressure to find a husband in the Tribe was tremendous. But I lost my virginity to a half-Korean/half-African-American guy, and I married a Greek national, which pretty much put the final stake in my parents' hearts. (Redeemed only when the marriage didn't last.) But to me all it mattered was that I was with someone who made me happy (until he didn't), not what pigeonhole he fell into.

Personally, I fall into the Bulworth category, "Everybody just gotta keep fuckin' everybody 'til they're all the same color." I appreciate ethnic and racial traditions and heritage--I can bake a mean lokshen kugel--but the heart has to be allowed to roam free, and I prefer not to be looked upon as some sort of symbolic savior of my religious heritage that is obligated to propagate my people.

I remember the old Charles S. Dutton series, "Roc." I used to love watching that show. And there was an episode where Roc's brother Joey, played by Rocky Carroll, started dating a white woman. His entire family turned on him, and he made an impassioned speech about how love was more important than racial imperatives. I was waiting for a happy resolution, when Roc's wife turned around and read Joey the riot act in the very terms stated above: that he was disrespecting his race, African-American sisterhood, and his family. AND HE DROPPED THE WHITE WOMAN. I was so shocked. I couldn't believe that that was the lesson the show wanted to implant. But it was.

I'm not a black woman, so I can't presume to say what they should or shouldn't feel. I think @emma is right when she talks about the standards of beauty that society embraces, and how far black women are from them. But you know what? 98% of women in the country are far from them. Ordinarily pretty women all over the country, of all races, are mangling their bodies in an attempt to reach an ideal that, as others have pointed out, have been set by a bunch of gay men. Ordinarily pretty women, of all races, who won't mangle their bodies, watch men turn away from them in favor of the thin, blonde, generic women who become trophy wives. For those of us women who are not thin or blonde or generic looking, it's hard enough. Adding the qualifier white--which is subsumed under blonde--makes it harder still.

I don't blame black women who are angry about black men with white women--an anger given vivid expression in an early scene in Sanaa Hamri's film "Something New" (in which poor Simon Baker stands in as the Mystical White Man who changes Sanaa Lathan's mind). But we're people, not symbols, and the heart wants what it wants.

Posted by Karen | November 30, 2008 5:12 PM

TNC

So I'm a biracial dude who has mostly dated white girls (but not only, I've had partners of all colors). A lot of the time people say I act white because of the way I act or dress or my interests which I guess might not be considered stereotypically black. I wonder if those two facts are related? I'm always open to dating people of different races but I've usually clicked romantically with more white girls than black. Your post makes me wonder if it's because some might consider the way I carry myself or my interests as a preference to all things white, even people.

Posted by Daniel | November 30, 2008 6:07 PM

All very fascinating.

From my perspective this is an interesting matter of character, perhaps weak character, but something living in fear of the pressures of society. It is my opinion that the sort of happiness you get from ice-cream after a blunt is not going to survive the kind of social noise people are afraid of. Only marriage will, and that has to do with the ability to understand and defend it against all enemies foreign and domestic. It is a generational / cycle of dysfunction problem.

It seems to me that only an understanding of the value of marriage itself survives all the noise.

I used to think, with regard to marriage, that I wouldn't and shouldn't marry any American woman before I had experienced some from off the continent. I can't say that it opened my eyes much. I still wanted what I wanted. It wasn't until I was ready to take on the tradition and deal with its demands as iron clad that things started to make sense. And so I have come to the conclusion, now after 14 years of marriage, that there is marriage, and there is everything else, and everything else doesn't count.

I expect that this conversation will continue forever and continue to bring fortunes to self-help authors and writers from here until doomsday. But an honest evaluation from everyone here who needed parents knows what the right thing to do is. Face it. Grow up. Live right.

Posted by Cobb | November 30, 2008 6:12 PM

I'm a black woman, and I've never dated interracially, but, to be honest, I'm very torn on the subject. I absolutely agree with the other African-American women who mentioned the unspoken "loyalty contract," and I do wonder if more of us are re-examining that mindset.

Speaking of "Something New," that was a hard film for me to watch, for a multitude of reasons. It hit very close to home -- a little too close, in fact.

Posted by Sabrina | November 30, 2008 6:17 PM

Now, your mention of the male-female dynamic is interesting. (Also, I find "I'm not racist, I'm just attempting discussion!" to be just as a common as "you're racist!" if not more so. I guess it depends on your perspective.)

It's why I never say "I'm not racist!" -- first of all, to say that I have completely avoided indoctrination by a race-based society where I'm in a position of privilege (in terms of skin color, but not class or gender) is ridiculous; and second, it's damn near impossible to prove a thing is absent when someone has already decided it's present. (See also: head, voices in my.)

To your point about the M/F dynamic: I'm fascinated about how gender intersects with race intersects with sexual orientation and, well, a whole lot of other things. There's a great scene in Angels in America where two gay characters (one black, one Jewish) get into it with each other about one being racist and the other anti-Semitic. The impact of the scene isn't that either of their accusations is true (and frankly, considering that both prejudices have been around for centuries, it's kind of intimated that each antagonist is correct in his POV). It's that previous to this scene, they have both self-identified as Gay Full Stop, and at the conclusion of the scene, they reach an awareness that while homosexuality is central to their self-identity, there are other factors (race, faith) involved and that these factors can sometimes take precedent (i.e. in that moment, each of them felt like a Black man and a Jew, NOT gay).

It's the same way with interracial dating and gender -- which race is the F and which is the M, and how does this affect how that relationship is interpreted both within each person, their community and society at large? (Actually, while on the subject of orientation, T-N, it would be interesting to get some commentary on how interracial dating is different - or not - when there's not the M/F dynamic, i.e. interracial lesbian and gay relationships.).

Posted by zacksback | November 30, 2008 6:21 PM

Daniel

Question for you, by the way, what is "acting white" and what is "stereotypically black?" I'm curious about your thoughts on the topic.

Posted by Sabrina | November 30, 2008 6:29 PM

Sabrina

Where I grew up, people said I "acted white" because I articulated my speech, read a lot of science fiction and fantasy, and indulged in other such nerdery. I never really listened to rap or hiphop like the other kids at school or played dodgeball. The only other people who had similar interests were white kids and so people said I acted white because of my interests and friends.
I don't know why I used the phrase "stereotypically black", it was a bad description. But I guess I meant that these were not things that the average black kids around me did.

Posted by Daniel | November 30, 2008 6:58 PM

Daniel

Well, you just described some aspects of my childhood, and I was born to two black parents. I cringe whenever I hear/read the phrases "acting white" or "speaking white" because I believe there is no such thing. You're not as alone in your experiences as you may think, and, yes, there are black "nerds" who have similar tales.

I also steer clear of the phrase "stereotypically black" because it often connotes a certain negativity attached to blackness that is unfair and misleading. To me, there is no "average" black person, and there is as much diversity among African Americans as with other races.

Posted by Sabrina | November 30, 2008 7:10 PM

Sabrina

Amen.

Posted by Daniel | November 30, 2008 7:14 PM

I have a feeling this thread may never end because this is the mother of all conversations for so many African-Americans, especially females.

I love TNC's post and think he summed it up well with this phrase,
"Motherfuckers need to do what they feel." And good luck with the path. A long-term relationship built on trying to pleasing someone else's idea of who you should be with is bound to be a disaster unless you are a masochist -- which many people seem to be these days. Cheers!

Posted by ms world | November 30, 2008 7:34 PM

Wow, I think interracial dating is probably the most complicated sociological topic I've seen on here, since everyone's experience his interesting, and vastly different

With regard to conditioning, there are those who are conditioned and then there are those who defy it. But the worst are those that over-un-conditioned. I'm heavily-mixed (look up Cape Verdean), but most consider me black. So I guess I'm a certain breed of brother that white-chicks-who-dig-black-dudes-are-into. Which of course I abhor. I don't want to be some girl's fetish ("Can I touch your hair?" blghwhffghwgeh!). Most white women won't date me though, which is fine. Everyone has his or her own bootie perogative.

But also, on the same token, most black women don't find me "black" enough. I'm fairly bright and out-going, and often meet fairly bright and out-going black women, and they want nothing to do with me.

So what am I left with? Foreign women. Up to now I've only spoken about American women. Luckily for me, I've lived in pretty diverse places (New York, Florida, and Hawaii). But I've almost only dated foreign women, completely by default. Latin, Euro, African, Asian. There seem to be fewer hang-ups about race, possibly because they are outside of their element here in the states and thus not really pressured by the social norms of their respective homelands. For the Euros, equality is so equal in many parts of Europe that women are pretty up-front if they dig you, like a guy would be. Latins are mixed beyond classification, so that's usually not a problem. But mainly, like I wish most women were, they are just happy to meet a nice guy who isn't a jerk, and then think about race after, if at all.

Posted by Andrew Fly | November 30, 2008 7:40 PM

Hey, its just too hard to find love. you gotta date everybody. I'm a black man in DC and despite all the talk I hear about 10 sistas to every guy, its still hard to find the right one.
My feeling is that you can't restrict yourself to any one race.Those that do, well, go ahead- more for the rest of us.
Now I do date mostly black women- but I'm keeping my options open.

Posted by stonetools | November 30, 2008 8:04 PM

The whole "interracial" dating debate in my humble opinion has less to do with race than it does with values. Please don't jump on me until I explain myself. I think that personally successful relationships are built on a commonality of outlook. A person's world-view ultimately shapes how they see the world and value-systems are in final analysis a product of experience.
I was raised by a pack of strong-willed female Italian relatives. The first time I fell deeply in love it was for an AA woman who had many of the same qualities as my aunts/mother/grandmother. Independence, strength of mind, and willpower. Ultimately I think that our notions of who we date are shaped more by our observations of those around us than by any conception of race.

Posted by Sorn | November 30, 2008 8:17 PM

Sorn

I can see your point of view. Had you dated AA women prior to meeting the woman you described (if you don't mind me asking)?

Posted by Sabrina | November 30, 2008 8:23 PM

No. Growing up on a reservation there were plenty of opportunities to date inter-racially but dating an AA woman had to wait until the opportunity presented itself when I was in the service. The woman I described still remains the standard that everyone else I meet is measured against. Her "blackness" was never an issue in many respects it was an asset. We shared and still share (I keep in contact) a common outlook. The joke is that for most of my life I was a minority and I have trouble relating and fitting into white middle class culture. In many respects I feel like I have spent my life "passing" in a white society which I fail to understand. Often it's like being an immigrant in my own country. I'm sure there are a few posters who can relate.

Posted by Sorn | November 30, 2008 8:37 PM

Sorn

Well, I can definitely relate to the feeling of "otherness" in the land of your birth. It's something I've grappled with for years.

Posted by Sabrina | November 30, 2008 8:47 PM

Sorn, it's funny how there are so many "others" in the US, be it ethnically, racially or sexual orientation or nationality, etc., yet we never seem to understand each other's "otherness" and therefore oftentimes hold each other in contempt, or at least low regard

Posted by Andrew Fly | November 30, 2008 8:51 PM

Thanks for your understanding. With regards to what fly said, failing to understand how the experiences of another person relate to every aspect of his or her life generates discrimination. I don't want to thread jack but discrimination is itself born of ignorance. When we project our values upon those who are different (in this context those who date inter-racially) we broadcast our ignorance to those around us.

I'm not going to be so passe as to give the old cliche about there being "only one race the human race" because I think that particular notion was developed by white people who hadn't been discriminated against. However we are the sum total of our experiences and some of us because those experiences are more predisposed to date inter-racially than others.

Posted by Sorn | November 30, 2008 9:15 PM

Sorn

I see your point, but I'll add that it is because of my personal experience with discrimination and those of my loved ones is one of the reasons why I've had an internal debate regarding interracial dating. I was raised with the view that the strongest bond was between the black man and the black woman. As one poster pointed out earlier, a number of black women have silently held true to a "loyalty contract" when, in reality, as stated previously, the expiration date is approaching, if it hasn't already passed. I used to think that having a black partner would ensure that there was a man by my side who would understand my daily struggles, my history, etc., but what happens when it's a man of another race who actually exhibits more understanding and empathy than I'm accustomed to receiving? I think I'm quickly becoming fatigued with fighting this battle with myself and among those in my sister circle.

It is true as stated above that many sisters go through a "process" in regards to this issue, and I think in the near future, this will become less of an albatross around the necks of black women who, at heart, just want to be loved and respected, even if that adoration comes from someone who doesn't share their skin tone.

Posted by Sabrina | November 30, 2008 9:38 PM

To hijack and bring a little levity to this thread, a friend and I had this simple (and probably terrible) idea for a pseudo-sci-fi story about "ending racism." in 2050 WWIII happens because of race wars all over the world. Afterward, there's a World Government established. One of the bylaws is that everyone must marry a person from another continent. If you couldn't afford to move, the government would pay for it. After a couple generations, it becomes like a right of passage, and after about 100 years everyone's more or less the same complexion. And the story just followed different people on their journeys.

Posted by Andrew Fly | November 30, 2008 9:39 PM

Interesting concept, Andrew.

For some reason, it made me think of this Ray Bradbury (is that correct?) short story I read back in grade school. I can't remember the plot verbatim, but I think it touched upon racism.

Or maybe I'm thinking of another writer. . .

Posted by Sabrina | November 30, 2008 9:49 PM

Sabrina

I understand your point I've been going through a similar debate with myself. I was raised to believe that the strongest bond was between a Christian man and a Christian woman and that marrying/dating outside my faith was a recipe for disaster. I don't believe that so much anymore but old prejudices die hard so they say.

Posted by Sorn | November 30, 2008 9:56 PM

Yes, certain frames of thinking are hard to discard, but there are certain factors underway that seem to be changing long held perceptions. I've already seen a number of changes in recent years, in regards to black women's thoughts on dating and relationships.

If you had asked me even a few years ago if I would ever consider dating a non-black man, I would have uttered a resounding No. Now the answer isn't so clear to me.

Posted by Sabrina | November 30, 2008 10:05 PM

Ordinarily pretty women, of all races, who won't mangle their bodies, watch men turn away from them in favor of the thin, blonde, generic women who become trophy wives.

Oh please, women of all shapes and sizes end up finding a husband. The top 1% of men in looks and/or money will be able to marry a trophy wife. The rest of us find women who aren't necessarily the high fashion definition of hot, but that we personally find attractive not just physically but mentally. The reality is that people end up pairing with somebody who's about as attractive to the world at large as them.

Posted by JordanT | November 30, 2008 11:12 PM

I met James Baldwin (actually, I heard him lecture and he signed a copy of his book which is so incredibly awesome). He said if America could solve the racial puzzle we would be the hope of the world. He said we have the problem but asked essentially if we had the solution. Isn't this challenge just another way of looking at this thread? The fact that there is so much energy and pain shows how insightful he was.

I'm AA - which means of course some Native American on both sides, some African via the Indies I'm told but actually no white as far as I can tell. My wife is as nerdy white as they come (straight haired, German/Welsh daughter of a renegage Baptist vs Catholic mom and dad marriage).

There have been political and familial challenges that have mostly been resolved by the iron law of demography: old people tend to die. Wife's Grandma was a successful society writer and photographer - in the pre Civil Rights South. Close to a feminist probably - college educated, smart, and very religous - but was a bit more than a little concerned that her precious and favorite granddaughter hooked up with a Reginald who was not English...anyhow, two decades later, she loved her first great grandson as much as you could imagine and only regretted that we hadn't dumped Universalist nonesense for stout Baptism.

Why turn the corner if it causes so much grief to so many folks? Because we're Americans - even worse - we're Westerners, and no one without a big gun gets away with running our lives. Yes, that's part of it. Another part is that politics ruled my life then and I wanted a rebel just like me. The odds of finding (or so I thought when I was 21 or so) a black leftist rebel at UCSB who could tolerate a skateboarding, Birkenstock wearing, computer science/math/econ major who like Bauhaus (actually, loved Bauhaus) like me seemed a bit long. I found her and we're still leftist nuts who gave way too much time and effort for that hope peddler from Chicago.

Of course I recognize that Western beauty has caused grief for women from Japan to the US -including my young sister, who is striking and was the beauty queen at our mostly white high school back in the 80s. Despite that achievement, my barber in Goleta (UCSB town) who was also black joked to me that the only black thing he wanted was his Cadillac. His wife was Latina. I'll never forget that because while I never would say anything like that, I think I'd been taught just the same. It took 10 years away from television to open up my eyes to the beauty of nonwhite women. My first wife (even had an African surname) looked so good I couldn't even tell she was pretty close to crazy for about three months. Heck, she wanted nothing at all to do with politics and just wanted to look even better than she did which was very difficult :)

So, there it is. One black man's confession for holing up with the enemy - as a second kid screams in his ear. We've had some bumps but we're still together while a lot of our friends and family who stayed in line have watched or more properly caused their marriages to end.

I think I made a good choice but the only test really is how the kids fair, isn't it?

Posted by Reginald Avery Wilkins, Ph.D. | November 30, 2008 11:13 PM

Attraction and sexuality is almost impossible to fully untangle from power for most of us humans. That's not a bad thing, it's just what is.

Social power/status is still entangled with perceived race and skin tone in these united states. Power is said to be the great aphrodisiac--look at all the ugly old white men in politics or business who attract gorgeous young women or men. I don't think it's always all about money for those young people; often it's the sexual frisson of power.

Those of us who are **consistently** attracted to people who are "up" the status/power line in this culture as it applies to race--i.e., those of us of any color or gender who are consistently attracted to white men or white women--might benefit from a little soul searching. One benefit being, as TNC said, expanding "the pool of your potential partners."

Posted by OH | November 30, 2008 11:38 PM

TNC, this post is deeply wise.

First, a pet peeve. In response to something said at the top of the comments, that:

Race is a social construct.

That is a remark that while very loosely speaking is true, means nothing. Just about everything significant and meaningful about us, including signification and meaning, is a "social construct" by the time the rubber meets the road. Religion, nationality, gender (long explanation skipped)and so forth. It makes it no less a reality, any more than the fact that money is a "social construct" changes the value of money. The remark is an empty-calories observation that gets passed around as insight much too often, usually as a way of minimizing the historical reality of racial experience and identity.

As to the original post, I can't help but think of Langston Hughes' poem, "Advice":

Folks, I'm telling you,
birthing is hard
and dying is mean--
so get yourself
a little loving
in between.

Posted by Lemmy Caution | December 1, 2008 12:10 AM