Tote more nukes than a little bit

"This marks the end of white man's civilisation," he said in an address."

And not a minute too soon, I say.

Fool.

Posted by KarenZ | November 9, 2008 1:34 PM

Look, I think what's most important here is that, along with Berlusconi's 'Obama is tanned' comment, these are European politicians who appear backwards and provincial.

Public stupidity: it happens in Europe, too.

Posted by Kuros | November 9, 2008 1:34 PM

Some fools are trying to create the crisis Biden spoke about. Next, someone will be asking for nukes in Turkey in the middle of rye fields, the reasoning is that Fidel is not dead yet! Yep, some more of Bush's legacy!!!!

Posted by ADLEED | November 9, 2008 1:40 PM

You missed the best bit:

"Gorski later apologised, saying his comments were strictly political, not racist."

When he said "white man's," he meant, like, the men who pour bleach over themselves so they don't give anything to the babies they go kiss. It's all political, swears.

Posted by sharky | November 9, 2008 1:50 PM

"This marks the end of white man's civilisation."

If only this were true.

Posted by Sansouci | November 9, 2008 1:55 PM

Thankfully Gorski is NOT the Prime Minister nor the President (what's Berlusconi's excuse?!) and due to the national outcry, (I'm pushing for his job) he will at the very least be severely reprimanded. And this all from a party that desperately WANTS the damn anti-missile shields!!! Bah!

But then what can you expect from a guy who once tabled the re-Monarchising of Poland with Jesus as King and Mary as Queen... and still is a member of the 'group' who supports this. *rolls eyes*

Posted by Khrystene | November 9, 2008 1:55 PM

Khrystene,

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you're Polish, no?

Posted by Ta-Nehisi Coates | November 9, 2008 2:01 PM

Khrystene,

Berlusconi is an arse, but his comment can be construed as off-hand and casual but insensitive (like Biden's bright, clean, articulate, and a nice-looking guy comment).

Gorski's comment is entirely indefensible.

Posted by Kuros | November 9, 2008 2:14 PM

You can pry my ABBA vinyl out of my cold, dead fingers.

Posted by Nat | November 9, 2008 2:18 PM

There is still a small group of older, rightwing, rural, uber-conservative Poles that snicker at the holocaust too. Eh' fuck em. They're as dead as the past anyway.

If you feel like being snarky though you can always ask them which part of "white civilization" they liked best - the German version or the Russian one.

Posted by Richardson | November 9, 2008 2:25 PM

Would this be a good time for me to bring up the "but he's HALF-WHITE!" line that is usually directed at us "excessively" happy black people? No? Okay. :-)

Posted by Galleymac | November 9, 2008 2:45 PM

One thing I should add for the record since I'm an American living and working deep in the heart of Eastern Europe; you should bear in mind that with the exception of a few places like the Czech Republic and Estonia, this place is literally 50 years behind schedule thanks to Communism. With older people, and especially those nations with huge working class populations (I'm living in one of them!) there is a large Archie Bunker mentality.

The kids are alright, but sort of spaced out since they needed to travel 50 years time in less than one generation. (Think of a generation wherein Meathead meets Alex Keaton and you'll get the idea.) This creates a ton of odd social tensions and strange social phenomenon. Anyway, you'll hear shit like this periodically coming from Eastern Europe for the next 8 years. More established figues will rush to put it out, young kids will be ashamed, a few old geezers will nod approvingly.) It is dying though, much fasting than you'd think.

That said, I'll write back after the impact of the economic crisis is more strongly felt across the region. We've had 8%-10% economic growth for several years in a row now, and people rushing to buy flatscreen TV's, Audis and Rihanna CDs don't exactly have the same cultural priorities and as the angry unemployed and debt-ridden.

Posted by Richardson | November 9, 2008 2:48 PM

The unfortunate prevalence of dudes like Gorski would be why Spiegleman drew the Poles as pigs in Maus.

Posted by Murine | November 9, 2008 3:01 PM

The senate leader in Italy made what was essentially the same comment. He said "with Obama in the whitehouse, Al Qaeda is happier" on television the other day.

The left put up a poster within 2 days calling it an embarassment (you can see it here: http://www.repubblica.it/2008/11/sezioni/esteri/italia-obama/gasparri-pd/gasparri-pd.html).

"Vergogna" means shame. To give you an idea of how bad the back-and-forth has gotten between the left and right here, the right wing (the party of Berlusconi) has already called this ad the following things, all in that above article:

barbaric
an ad that provokes dangerous consequences
leninist
in the style of the red brigades(communist terrorists of the 70s)
done by "students of Goebbels and Stalin"

Talk about a debased discourse. It's hard to follow politics here--hysteria is permanently in the air and no one knows how to move forward. Bipartisanship is essentially non-existent.

If you guys thought Palin was an unqualified pick, you should see some of the ministers they appointed here after the last election. They seem to have been done almost just to make fun of the opposition. Talk about cynicism. The Minister of Equal Opportunities is an ex-nude model who claimed gay pride parades weren't necessary because gays no longer face any type of discrimination, for example.

Posted by Jordan | November 9, 2008 3:36 PM

Would this be a good time for me to bring up the "but he's HALF-WHITE!" line that is usually directed at us "excessively" happy black people?

But he's only half-white when it's another reason to insult him, duh!

Posted by Persia | November 9, 2008 3:45 PM

Richardson,
as someone who lived in Poland throughout the tumultous decade of the 1990's, I take exception to your characterization of the Poles as provincial and untutored louts living in a backwater of civilization.
The Poles that i met throughout the long time that I lived there (as well as the other Eastern Europeans that i met in travelling extensively throughout the area) were very well-travelled, well-read, often spoke 2 or 3 languages, had a very strong sense of what was happening in other places in the world, a cutthroat style of argumentation, and a finely honed black humor that could slice a prime minister to shreds. Granted, not everyone was like this. But the majority of the people I knew had lived out of the country, and were very open to importing new ideas to help Poland become a stronger nation.
Saying that the Kaczynski brothers and the Law and Justice Party are representative of Poland is like saying Sarah Palin and Mike Huckabee are representative of the US. Yes, some Poles like them. But ultimately their election was about something different than the Kaczynski's right-wing, uberconservative ideas. (in 10 words or less: Polish government- still very corrupt. The K Brothers ran on a "new broom sweeps clean" platform)

Richardson, don't know where you're living. But if you think that Czech and Estonia are the only cosmopolitan places in Eastern Europe, you need to jump on a train and take a ride around the region.

Posted by lebecka | November 9, 2008 3:48 PM

@Galleymac

You noticed that too,huh?

Let not forget what The Prime Minister Zapatero of Spain said to El Pais.com during the election, about how he will work with the new administration "tenga el color que tenga".(translation, have the color it has).

This just goes to show that no matter how some are trying to "whiten" Obama, many recognize Obama for what he is. A Black man.

Posted by penny | November 9, 2008 3:53 PM

this really is a mind f*ck. our notion of the usa as the epitomy of old, white, all powerful patriarchy has been flipped on its head. certainly the systemic structures holding it up remain but our assumptions are being called into question. this shift is one so fundamental it will i am sure kick up these kind of backwards, racist, reactionary comments and actions for some time to come. racism v1 is still alive and well. That said, i do beleive that now is the time for us progressives (broadly speaking) to step up. we have been operating in a largely reactionary position for many years and it is no small challenge to shift our orientation to one that allows for creative solutions to be birthed and implemented. if we really truly want to create and sustain transformational change and govern as opposed to simply being right and throwing land mines we too will have to change. we will need to become the bridge builders... defining a new consensus. our highest aspiration for obama may be to ask him to govern as radical reformer but also as a unifier; to help us define a new consensus. that is likely to mean we need to bridge to these racist mother f*ckers as our liberation is linked to theirs. that is going to take some serious maturity and grace.

Posted by jodie | November 9, 2008 4:35 PM

Re: With older people, and especially those nations with huge working class populations (I'm living in one of them!) there is a large Archie Bunker mentality.

I read somewhere once that when Margaret Thatcher first met Leonid Brezhnev and suggested that, whatever their differences, the USSR and UK had some common interests, Brezhnev agreed with her and told her that they should indeed work together to ensure the survival of the white race.

Posted by JonF | November 9, 2008 4:36 PM

Selfishly, may I just say here how amazing it is that people from all over the globe are here at TNC and speaking up for my reading enjoyment and education.

Nothing more. Carry on.

Posted by Hicks | November 9, 2008 4:39 PM

one of the most hilarious jokes from SNL was the parody of one of the debates with McCain where SNL-Obama said he would use the race card against kim jong il.

could this be a pivot point for healing relations with russia and not looking like he's backing down toward medvedev's recent stupid comments regarding missiles?

obama's already got rahm, and jews aren't going to deny his commitment toward them. it'll be another rev. wright/ferraro/jesse jackson moment.

Posted by PERSP | November 9, 2008 4:50 PM

so, are the Kaczynski brothers related to Ted?

Someone once asked Ghandi for his thoughts on Western civilization. He said "sounds like an excellent idea".

(almost certainly apocryphal)

Posted by bread & roses | November 9, 2008 4:56 PM

if you ever start missing the shock/entertainment value of your soon gone present leader, come on over and check out some of our vintage knuckleheads here in eurabia (Sarkozy,Berlusconi,the Kaczynski twins) and the wonderful saga of the other infamous austrian (Haider).

you won't be disappointed

Posted by muzzyology | November 9, 2008 6:23 PM

Needless to say, PiS is the Polish version of the GOP. They're popular with the Highlander crowd.

Posted by geopolitics and beer | November 9, 2008 6:31 PM

I'm no expert, but I've traveled a bunch in Europe (both eastern and western) and was pretty shocked to find how racist the whole continent is. We Americans tend to think Europe is so much more enlightened and liberal than us (and they are in many respects) but their approach to race relations and immigrant assimilation has been pretty abysmal (see: Paris riots, London tube bombers). We're talking about places where soccer fans yell racial epithets and throw bananas at the African players ON THEIR OWN TEAMS. Can you imagine if that was happening at a Packers game?

So, all this is to say, I'm not surprised in the least. In fact, I expect more of this over the next four years, not less.

Posted by Catherine | November 9, 2008 6:44 PM

@Hicks. I had the same thought. What an informative comments thread!

@TNC, would love to hear your thoughts on this proposal for French affirmative action. Then maybe the commenters' expertise can shift westward.

Posted by hb | November 9, 2008 7:12 PM

JonF: it's from Freeman Dyson's memoirs, Weapons and Hope if memory serves. He doesn't give the name of the person who told him, but one can make a pretty good guess (George Kennan).

Catherine: I think Packer fans would drag the banana guy's sorry ass to Lambeau security themselves. Jesus. A friend's sister delivered (just released) Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila's baby in Green Bay -- *huge* kid, incidentally. It's a community.

I was just in Europe traveling on some overnight trains. Passport control was very interested in me, since I look as European as our President-Elect, until they saw the American eagle. Complete eye-skitter. I felt like Paul telling the centurion he was a citizen of Rome. Creepy in several different ways.

Posted by Carlos | November 9, 2008 7:44 PM

Kinda O/T, but was the Berlusconi "tanned" comment off-base in anyone's view? I thought it was meant in a lighthearted, ironic way, but I sure don't know much about the Italian sense of humor.

Posted by trevor tb | November 9, 2008 7:56 PM

trevorb: I read it that way too. We liberals have a nasty tendency for hyper-sensitivity to that kind of thing. I think he was cracking a joke and didn't mean anything by it.

I mean five years ago when nobody outside of Chicago had ever heard of Obama, you could have told this joke: "Q: How do we get a black guy into the White House? A: Just tell the white folk he's heavily tanned."

Posted by Jordan | November 9, 2008 8:15 PM

I know a guy who is an American citizen, the son of Chinese immigrants and born in Europe. When he tried to get through customs in Italy, they thought his passport and whole life story was fake and ended up questioning him. It New York, he would just be another guy.

"Look, I think what's most important here is that, along with Berlusconi's 'Obama is tanned' comment, these are European politicians who appear backwards and provincial."

You know, part of me wants the European Right to shoot off their mouths more and more about Obama to show how ugly they really are. The Europeans can talk when the Brits elect a Pakistani Muslim as PM, the Italians elect a Roma, the French elect an Algerian Muslim or a Jew, the Germans elect a Jew or a Turkish Muslim, etc. For one thing it will force Europeans (I'm generalizing here, so sorry to the Danes) to confront that they are not as enlightened as they might think and hopefully force them to re-think their general approach to immigrants, Muslims and Jews. At the same time, you are going to see a bunch of people who hate Europe and may not have voted for Obama but are fine with him general as president get really pissed off about Europeans being racist to our president. Getting middle America pissed off over anti-black racism is probably a good thing and will help cement anti-racism as part of the post-Civil Rights American character and social contract.

Posted by Reality Man | November 9, 2008 8:44 PM

"Kinda O/T, but was the Berlusconi "tanned" comment off-base in anyone's view? I thought it was meant in a lighthearted, ironic way, but I sure don't know much about the Italian sense of humor.

Posted by trevor tb | November 9, 2008 7:56 PM"

Then again, Berlusconi may not be a fascist, but he does have a weird streak to him. This is a guy who at the European Parliament publicly told a German representative that he would do a good job playing a Nazi concentration camp guard in a movie. IIRC, his ruling coalition also includes the likes of Alexandra Mussolini, a woman so stupid that she destroyed the fascist bloc in the European parliament by calling the Romanian fascists gypsies. The Italian right is downright odd.

Posted by Reality Man | November 9, 2008 8:47 PM

This idiot is a member of the right wing of PiS (Law and Justice). A few years ago the Kaczynski twins decided to make a deal with Father Rydzyk, the pied piper of the Catho-fascist element in Polish society. He has a very popular radio station and a newspaper, and an enormous following among the middle aged and elderly rural population which tends to be dirt poor and are the big losers of the shift to capitalism. (By poor I mean worse than anything you'll see here in the US - it's bad) With the deal came his political friends who are now the right wing of the PiS. Think Nixon's southern strategy only more open and in a country with far less political correctness to muzzle explicit racism. Fortunately, PiS tends to do horribly among both the young and the urban population. The rural population is declining, and the old are dying out. Give us a decade or two.

Posted by MarekNYC | November 9, 2008 10:57 PM

this place is literally 50 years behind schedule thanks to Communism

Ask Mandela which governments were supporting the ANC when Cheney was calling Mandela a terrorist.

If you don’t know about Cuito Cuanavale, google it.

Posted by Watson | November 9, 2008 11:29 PM

lebecka,

I'm sorry, but your reading comprehension skills are simply are terrible. I don't know what you read above, but it has little or nothing to do with what I wrote.

Posted by Richardson | November 9, 2008 11:44 PM

From what I've gleaned European prejudice is a bit more cultural. African-Americans who go to Europe can be treated fairly well, that is actually based in some kind of truth I gather, but people directly from Sub-Saharan Africa can be seen in a far more negative light. Hmm I wonder if Obama being the child of a Kenyan would make it worse for this Pole or make no difference?

Hostility to both Jews and Muslims has gone up a bit in Europe according to Pew Survey. Likewise hostility to the Roma/Gypsies is usually pretty high in Europe. In my High School days my family had an exchange student from Bilbao, Spain. At one point we discussed race and ethnicity then he mentioned something about the "Gypsies." So I offhandedly said something like "They're in a similar position there to what blacks are here." He made something of a face at that analogy and said, "No, the gypsies they really are scum." He implied though that if Gypsies suddenly started acting like Spanish people in all respects they'd be more okay with it. A few European nations suffered from a much more literal version of "culture war" and so are maybe a bit more uptight about variance.

Well also the numbers and skills make a difference. A few highly skilled Chinese-American or African-American or say Inuit moving to Europe doesn't threaten their self-image. Their nation could remain "the nation of the French", or Italians or Poles, in such a situation. Immigrants becoming a significant minority can be a different matter.

Posted by Thomas R | November 10, 2008 12:21 AM

Poles were considered racially inferior by the Nazis, and this guy sees value in advancing a some conception of "white civilization"?

Posted by adina | November 10, 2008 12:23 AM

"The black messiah of the new left"

The titles born of this campaign season are getting more and more entertaining every day. I myself quite liked 'Georgetown Cocktail Party Conservative'. What a vivid picture for my daydreaming sessions! I'm not sure 'Black Messiah of The New Left' really gets those same juices going (in the same way), but then again---when I put the two together---a great story gets rolling. Gotta love those scenes. So I think it's the perfect time for all you writers out there to roll up your sleeves and start putting pen to paper; this is fiction is begging to be told...

Posted by Tessa | November 10, 2008 12:40 AM

@penny

I think you go way overboard with Zapatero's comment. As you state, the Spanish PM just said that he would work with the new administration "tenga el color que tenga".

But, in this case, it most likely meant whether it's [Republican] red or [Democratic] blue. The fact that he referred to the incoming administration, rather than the president, should give you a clue on the prime ministers' train of thought.

Posted by ClaudeB | November 10, 2008 12:48 AM

It is rather lovely to realize that the dim-bulb's own party will understand why they need to make sure none of us ever hear about him again. Tossing him out of office would be great, but simply ensuring that he never speaks of the President-elect again would do.

After all, as Putin rears his head, he can be in Polish airspace even faster than he can reach Alaska--making American friends pretty damn important.

Super-power power is even more fun than I'd realized.

Posted by Sporcupine | November 10, 2008 1:14 AM

Hmm I wonder if Obama being the child of a Kenyan would make it worse for this Pole or make no difference?

Quite possibly. I have defintiely been informed, in France, that Western blacks (American and Canadian, specifically, in this conversation) would be seen as "plus evolve." (Er... I want an accent aigu on "evolve" but don't have the capability right now.) On the other hand, possibly they're more inclined to recognize him as mixed or "metis," and mixed being another category?

Posted by Galleymac | November 10, 2008 1:18 AM

Artur Gorski of the opposition Law and Justice (PiS) party told parliament last week.

An appropriate acronym, it seems.

Posted by Ginger Joe | November 10, 2008 9:55 AM

Thomas R is right about Europeans and Gypsies. From west to east, there are huge divisions. It's not about ethnicity per se, almost exclusively cultural. They generally have no problem with ethnic Gypsies who shed the traditional ways.

I'm always amazed to hear some of the things that come out of my left-leaning Polish friends when the topic of Gypsies comes up...

Posted by geopolitics and beer | November 10, 2008 10:00 AM

if i can make a sweeping generalization partly based on some personal experience, "blackness" still remains solely an abstraction for many europeans. People could easily go through their whole lives without ever speaking to a black person and without consciously avoiding it.

When i came to live in one of switzerlands "larger" cities in the early 80's, it seemed like you could count it's black inhabitants on the fingers of your two hands. Today every time you take a walk through town you're bound to see people from ethiopia, cote d'ivoire, nigeria, the states etc.
Now it seems especially younger people are hungry for encounters between the shades, to get a feel for what people of color offer our world.

Things Done Changed

Posted by muzzyology | November 10, 2008 10:38 AM

Reality Man,

France has had a Jewish PM before, genius. So has England. And a bunch of South American countries have had Arab presidents before.

European countries, unlike the United States, are not constitutively consiedered 'nations of immigrants'. On the contrary, they have a distinct national and cultural identity. So I'm not sure exactly why they should have something to prove to the United States. Given that France is historically considered 'the eldest daughter of the Church', having a Muslim PM would be quite a break from their cultural roots.

JonF,

That really surprises me. Given how much the Russian people suffered at the hands of the Nazis, I would have thought they would be viscerally hostile to racial rhetoric. I know that Russians are very into the whole Mother Russia concept but I thought that was defined more in terms of religion and history, not race.

Posted by Hector | November 10, 2008 12:50 PM

Speaking of Gypsies, I had a Hungarian friend once. Very socialistic and left-leaning for the most part, and racially tolerant until you got on the subject of Gypsies. He felt that all Gypsy children should be taken from their mothers and raised by the state, so that they wouldn't be inculcated into a culture of crime, illiteracy and vice. Feelings about Gypsies certainly do run strong in Eastern Europe. I don't know enough about the Gypsies myself to say if there is any reason behind the animosity or not.

Posted by Hector | November 10, 2008 12:54 PM

Sounds as if Poland is a county in Alaska? As this nonsense stems from my original neck of the woods (Eastern Europe) I would like to add some context. I've also appreciated the other commenters' postings on this region. (warning: i am going to generalize and will apply history with a big brush and will paint it with fast strokes).

After civilization (ancient greece) has fallen to religion - europeans have lived "like animals" for more than a thousand years. If it had not been for Islam - who invaded the Balkan region - no social and education progress would have been possible. The Balkan region at the time was nowhere near the Italian renaissance but closer to the central and north European primitivism.

Islam in eastern europe was the only force at the time that was not afraid of science, the only culture with universities that where meant to spread and not guard scientific knowledge. "God is reason" has never been uphold more by a religious group than Islam during the middle-ages. But they also allowed and protected christian and jews to practice their religions in any european territory that was invaded. They even introduced schools and education etc. A bit like Turkey having been ahead in the past compared to other European and US democracies when it comes to social issues like female voting and abortion etc. but as we know - nobody likes being invaded - no matter what goodies come out of it.

there was not enough time to find an own identity in this region before the communist came in and took away all religion and property (100% tax and universal benefits. people pretended to work and the government pretended to pay them). suddenly - the running joke was that we should declare war on the US as soon as possible so that we can be invaded (and freed). With the advent of the atomic bomb - that option didn't seem so attractive tough. (my family risked their lives to flee this oppressive regime - only to encounter racism instead in "free" central europe).

there is no other place on the planet, except in the US itself, that is more wary of anything that looks socialist, islamic or that threatens traditional christianity in any way.

But even in Eastern Europe - these are only fringe, opposition groups - like the GOP christian fundamentalists have become. They also try to win voters on fear of foreigners and are pushing an agenda of lower taxes (which I actually agree with but not with the label of Obama as a communist).

The Economist has deployed a great feature during the election. What would the world vote? Eastern Europe has shown the least Obama supporters of all Europe - and yet they were generally 70% in favor of Mr Brack Hussain Obama (72% in Poland). These people, as quoted, live in a world that is not there anymore and they will die out soon.

As libertarian i am generally happy about the social progress i see in young eastern europeans. I just hope that people do not equate social progress with socialism. Social and economic freedom go hand in hand - but often it is two different parties or generations fighting for one or the other.

Visit The Global Electoral College

I am more interested in finding out what is going on in Algeria and Congo. And who are the 2% in Kenya who would have voted McCain? Gujaratis - I doubt it? Maybe indian christians?

Posted by Hugo Pottisch | November 10, 2008 1:19 PM

I would have greeted the Polish politician with a heartfelt 'Oy!', and happily walked away, my prejudice about my Eastern brothers and sisters once again confirmed. But there is more at stake here, unfortunately. Both me and this guy are citizens in the same EU, (shudder!)
Europeans know they are, as a world leading civilization, seriously on their way to the exit. As a continent, we are growing older. We are dying off. And with that goes all our 'white mans burden' crap, that after all originated here. So it is not necessarily a bad thing at all that Europe is slowly disappearing from focus, at least in my opinion.
Meanwhile, the rest of the world is going about their business. And people like our rightwing Polish friend who TNC quoted can not handle this, this being on the losing team. Many people back east feel they never got to the party. And when they finally made it, the DJ had already packed up and left. All the Poles etc have left is their national identity and their Catholicism. And being white, of course, you cannot get any whiter than someone from Belarus or thereabouts.

I am profoundly embarrassed about statements like the ones the Polish and Italian politicians made. But that's our European racism for you. And as we disappear into oblivion and sink further away into the peat we once came out of, it will only get worse.

Posted by Daphne | November 10, 2008 2:07 PM

"European countries, unlike the United States, are not constitutively consiedered 'nations of immigrants'."

TR: This is true, except maybe of Iceland, so I tried to lean a bit more to groups native to their lands.

Has any Scandinavian nation had a Lapp/Sami in high office? Looking it up I do find a Helga Pedersen, minister of fisheries, and a couple state secretaries. Has any person of the Jewish faith been Prime Minister or President in Europe? (I think Ruth Dreifuss of Switzerland might count, but I don't know) Has any Basque person been leader or number 2 in France or Spain?

Posted by Thomas R | November 10, 2008 4:48 PM

"except maybe of Iceland"

TR: That part may have sounded perplexing as Iceland has had very little immigration until quite recently and still has less than much of Europe. However Icelanders are not native to the place. They all are aware that their ancestors immigrated to it in the 9th-10th centuries or thereabouts.

Posted by Thomas R | November 10, 2008 4:51 PM

yeah, ruth dreifuss is jewish and unionred and in the bundesrat (federal council), but we don't just settle for one president, we've got 7 of them.
and none ;-)

Posted by muzzyology | November 10, 2008 5:17 PM

was in the bundesrat i meant to say

Posted by muzzyology | November 10, 2008 5:20 PM

Re: As a continent, we are growing older. We are dying off.

You realize that you could solve that problem, if European countries placed more emphasis on childbearing and the family, and encouraged women to have more children. I must confess, as someone who's neither white nor European, I don't understand how you can be so sanguine at seeing your culture, your people, and your nation slowly depopulate itself. It's your funeral, I suppose, but it makes me very sad.

Re: All the Poles etc have left is their national identity and their Catholicism.

Although I'm not a Catholic, I will say that the rich heritage which is the Catholic Church should be more than enough to give meaning to the life of any individual, any people, or any nation.

Posted by Hector | November 10, 2008 5:34 PM

As a continent, we are growing older. We are dying off.

Given population pressure on global resources, it would be better if countries which feel that they need more able-bodied workers welcomed and encouraged immigration. It would certainly be reasonable to require that the newcomers learn the national language and respect the local customs.

Posted by Watson | November 10, 2008 6:39 PM

BTW - Larenz Tate was O-Dog in Menace to Society.

Eastern Europe is the poor white/failed government part where people need something to make them feel better about themselves and a demagogue reminds them that at least you've got your race.

"the great lie is that it is "Civilization", it's not civilized. It's been the most blood thirsty...brutalizing system ever imposed upon this planet...that is not civilization, that's the great lie...or if it does represent civilization, and if that's truly what civilization is, then the great lie is that civilization is good for us"

-John Trudell, American Indian political activist

Posted by John Henry | November 10, 2008 6:59 PM

Nice quote.

Technically civilization is whatever builds cities. China, the Aztecs, the Inca, the Yoruba, and the Hausa were all civilized. The idea of "white civilization" is basically preposterous. What we could call "white people" had several civilizations, not all of them alike. The same is also true of blacks or Asians.

Posted by Thomas R | November 10, 2008 9:30 PM

"France has had a Jewish PM before, genius. So has England. And a bunch of South American countries have had Arab presidents before."

The French PM is not really a powerful position. The president is a rather strong position, especially since de Gaulle re-wrote the constitution. You also notice how I didn't mention anything about Britain not having a Jewish PM (even then, Disraeli was only culturally Jewish, but a practicing Christian). I'm not sure what South America has to do with a discussion of Europe.

"European countries, unlike the United States, are not constitutively consiedered 'nations of immigrants'. On the contrary, they have a distinct national and cultural identity. So I'm not sure exactly why they should have something to prove to the United States. Given that France is historically considered 'the eldest daughter of the Church', having a Muslim PM would be quite a break from their cultural roots."

Well, if Europeans are going to lecture the US on race while being so retrograde about it, being downright hostile to the Roma, continuing to treat Muslims and Jews who have lived in Europe for generations as only partially of the nation at best, etc., then they are also going to have to confront their own racism and bigotries as well. Also, considering how small a portion of France is actually practicing Catholics as opposed to de facto or de jure agnostics or atheists, your last point is moot.

"You realize that you could solve that problem, if European countries placed more emphasis on childbearing and the family, and encouraged women to have more children."

Wow, newsflash: as nations get richer and women get more rights, they old ways don't look as promising. This is why opening one's borders to immigration makes sense. After all, neither of us would be here without it.

Posted by Reality Man | November 10, 2008 9:34 PM

Reality Man,

I don't particularly give a damn what 'looks promising' or 'makes sense'. If Frenchmen, Spanish and British have any sense of duty to their culture, their history, their faith and their nation, then they will stop being self-indulgent cosmopolitans and realize that procreation is an essential part of marriage, and not an optional extra. And I don't care what's good for me, or for you- I care what is good for Christendom.

Posted by Hector | November 10, 2008 10:44 PM

The funny thing here is that most of the comments seem to give more credibility to racism than even Obama himself does. He ran on the democratic American ticket, not the black American ticket. For all the black Americans identifying with him because of his blackness, that in itself is racism. He is American, not black, not white, and he's certainly smart enough to not give a rat's ass about a few backwards comments.

Posted by vinvee | November 11, 2008 9:44 AM

"One thing I should add for the record since I'm an American living and working deep in the heart of Eastern Europe; you should bear in mind that with the exception of a few places like the Czech Republic and Estonia, this place is literally 50 years behind schedule thanks to Communism. With older people, and especially those nations with huge working class populations (I'm living in one of them!) there is a large Archie Bunker mentality."

I'm living and working deep in the heart of the Northeastern U.S., the bastion of blue-statism and I'd say there is a significant segment of Archie Bunker types here, so it isn't limited to Eastern Europe.

In fact, turn on AM radio at most any time of the day and you'll get more than your fill of racism, couched in ideological purity.

Posted by Jim | November 11, 2008 11:01 AM

When I read this post I immediately thought of Raven from the book Snow Crash.

Posted by Duncan Watson | November 11, 2008 6:32 PM

The thing about Berlusconi is that, if I'm not mistaken, he has a bit of an infamous orange George Hamilton tan himself, as he probably thinks is proper for a Mediterranean media magnate.

I think that was what Berlusconi was getting at with the suntanned thing. Berlusconi was saying that Obama is "handsome and suntanned" with the unspoken kicker "like me".

That seems vain and corny, but not especially racist if you look at it that way.

Posted by Jon H | November 11, 2008 7:45 PM