That admission leads us to another issue. While googling myself this morning (Why does it feel like I just wrote "While downloading pr0n this morning...") I came across this riff on something I said a few weeks back:
Black women who oppose interacial dating have different reasons than most. I think it's closer to the manner in which some Jewish women must hate the idea of a Shiksa. But even that doesn't quite get it. The opposition comes out of a specific, and yet broad, historical experience of never being held up as anyone's flower of virtuosity, but instead as un-feminine and oversexed.Phoebe over at the aptly named, Whatwouldphoebedo offers this response:
I'd have to disagree with Coates and say that his comparison does "get it." Jewish women can look to a "specific, and yet broad historical experience" that's unpleasant from all angles. Jewish women have been stereotyped as whores (by 19th century European Christian men) and as prudes (by 20th century American Jewish men). Historically, oppression of Jews has led to rape of Jewish women, as has oppression of blacks led to the equivalent situation. And of course, as Coates implies, things look better for exogamy-friendly black and Jewish men than for their female counterparts.You know I pulled back on that thing about Shiksas because I frankly was out of my league. But like a lot of things about Jewish cats (Zionism/black nationalism, Kwaanza/Hanukkah, Sell-out/Self-loathing Jew etc.) the notion sounded really, really familiar. I got quite a bit of e-mail response to on the subject, some of it implying that "shiksa" wasn't the kindest of words:
The word shiksa is derived from the Hebrew term sheketz, which means "abomination," "impure," or "object of loathing", depending on the translator.[1]
Despite its etymology, the term shiksa is widely used and accepted in the United States, where it is often used in a humorous way.
The word "siksa" (pronounced "shiksa") in Polish Gentile culture is a pejorative (but often teasing or affectionate) word for an immature young girl or teenager. It literally means "pisspants" and is roughly equivalent to the Engish terms "snot-nosed brat", "young squirt" or "young goat" ("kid").
Although it has Hebrew origins, it was conflated with the Polish word "sikać" ("to urinate") and is therefore a false cognate that is actually equivalent to the Yiddish word "pisher".
Frankly folks, I'm out of my league here. I want to hear more. Is there any resonance between how black women and Jewish women see themselves? Does any of that extend to inter-ethnic dating? Which reminds. We have a spokesperson for the Whites and for the blacks. We really need one for the Jews. I think Joe Leiberman works.
The Beautiful Struggle: A Father, Two Sons, and an Unlikely Road to Manhood 
No on Leiberman. I'm going with Saul Bellow even though he has passed on.
If we're going to nominate a Jewish spokesperson using our stereotype-based rating system, the I nominated "The Man." After all, everybody "knows" Jews control the media, the banks, as well as administering a secret cabal which selects and controls world leaders.
I'm white, nominally Christian, >50, grew up in NYC area. I never observed any bias against dating Jewish girls or women. What's not to like? Jewish guys sometimes complained they (the women, not the guys) wouldn't give head but that wasn't my experience. JAP stereotype had some validity but not universality, and frankly I liked a lot of the JAPs just fine too when I was ypounger and am still fond of them as they have become middle-aged yentas.
African-American women? Honestly, I haven't a clue.
I nominate Jerry Stiller.
I'd have to go with Larry David or the Susie character from David's "Curb Your Enthusiasm" (Yes I am a big fan of the show). Mel Brooks would also be okay, as would Martin Scorcese (Jews and Italians of his generation are often indistinguishable).
Although these would actually be good spokespeople so maybe they wouldn't fit what you are looking for in the Billy Dee/penciled-mustached-white guy-I-never-heard-of mold. Paul Wolfowitz? Not funny enough i suppose. Too bad Meyer Lansky is dead. He was one badass Jew. Maybe the actor who played Hyman Roth is still alive (doubtful).
This is tough. Can we get a spokesman for "ethnic" whites? The mustached guy is actually much less representative of me than Billy Dee.
"The Man" is a good call, but I think Lieberman is just a bit too specifically American and not necessarily Jewish in his haughty self-righteousness. Jews are embarrassed by Lieberman, but because he's a schmuck of the highest order. I think that a truly shameworthy spokesman has to be Bibi Netanyahu - as Josh Marshall puts it so well, a complete charlatan, a corrupt double-dealer who embodies all the worst stereotypes about contemporary Jewry (dual loyalty [as he was PM of Israel, though raised in the US]; hideous racism against the Palestinians; almost certainly a war criminal by any decent international standards; petty self-enrichment; etc.), all in a bulbous and fairly ridiculous visage.
Also: shiksa is definitely not a nice word. But in the context that's being discussed, that's kind of the point.
"Is there any resonance between how black women and Jewish women see themselves? Does any of that extend to inter-ethnic dating?"
You'll have to get some Jewish women and black women together and have them hash it out (heh...my vision of that is hilarious). I can't add much to the discussion except this: The thought of marrying a non-Jew---for most Jews I know, both men and women---is just not something they'd entertain, for many religious and cultural reasons (most of the Jews I know would consider themselves moderately religious). Also there's the fact that it is the mother who carries the Jewish bloodline. Your mother must be Jewish for you to be Jewish (not accounting for conversion, etc). I'm not sure how that affects their thinking. Is there a parallel with black women from this perspective...?
Choice is easy...Ari Gold
Lieberman? Meh. Or, rather, feh! You could pick Barbra Streisand (or does the spokesperson have to be a man? In that case, I nominate (a) Lenny Bruce (b) Woody Allen (c) The Beastie Boys).
Maybe the actor who played Hyman Roth is still alive (doubtful).
That actor was the famous acting teacher Lee Strasberg, and he's dead.
Oh, you're very clever! Saying "Joe Lieberman" was the bait to get someone of Jewish heritage, like myself, to bite.
And I did! No, bit Joe! Of course, I have to say "say it ain't so!" But really, the guy's a snake. Does he have to represent all Jews?
Yep, like all minority groups, each individual cries out when someone is picked to represent "us".
I haven't sat down and had a heart-to-heart with any woman of any ethnicity about men/ethnicity, so I can't speak for them, nor can I guess.
Here's what it was like where I grew up: 20 minutes out of NYC, a nouveau riche heavily Jewish town. Every school break, the older one got, more girls would come back with new noses and a tan. Y'know, so they'd look less ethnic. The tan? So we'd think they were just in the Bahamas or something. Yeah, right.
Anyone born blonde and with a little nose was golden. I realized that outside of my community, though not blonde, noone guessed I was Jewish. Great! I could pass. I felt guilty about enjoying that.
I couldn't pass well enough for the Jewish guys, though. "Shiksa" also meant bimbo, no doubt about it. So, girls with some brains=Jewish. Jewish girls=their mothers, too. And some expectation that you had to act "Jewish", whatever that meant.
So, I avoided the whole issue by leaving that world behind me and passing until I stopped wanting to. I don't know how you feel about Roth's "The Human Stain", but I related quite a bit to it.
This issue is to big for a little comment, honestly.
I nominate Jon Stewart, specifically Jon Stewart doing the Borscht-Belt-comedian-whose-joke-just-bombed voice.
Or George Soros. Either one.
@ JR -
At the reference to The Human Stain, I literally thought, "You passed as black?" ;)
@ TNC -
I recommend Sarah Silverman. No one wants to talk or think about Lieberman anymore. Can we all just agree not to mention him again?
Gene, where did YOU grow up? I HEARD that Jewish girls gave great head (and TNC, don't censor me, 'cause Gene brought this up!).
Oh, and I love that the "valid" JAPS grew up into YENTAS.
You wrote "African-American Women? I haven't got a clue?"
No clue about Jewish women, or maybe all women, either.
But okay, I won't single you out. We all ALL IGNORANT, in my opinion.
I nominate Gilbert Gottfried. Seriously.
I would prefer Jackie Mason.
I live in an area that has a high Jewish population; while they may have had female ancestors who were oppressed, most of the girls in my school were living a life of comfort if not luxury. The majority of them had no problems with dating someone outside their religion, though I know of a couple Jewish guys whose parents were adamant that they never marry a non-Jew. The kid I lived next door to was disinhereted for doing so.
I have an Aunt that is Jewish, her and my Uncle were married before I was born. Her family is fairly liberal, mine is conservative. My grandparents welcomed her into the family and were close to her until they passed, her family was not so openminded and many didn't attend the wedding. In fairness, they softened over time.
Every culture has its version of interracial/interethnic dating. My dad is Church of Scotland (Glasgow). My mom is Irish Catholic (Philly). And in my dad's world, yes sirree that sure as hell caused the same reaction as an interracial marriage.
They're elderly now. I affectionately call them the Old Firm, although nobody stateside gets it.
Anyone who wants to waste a few hours looking for a few more spokesperson nominees can surf over to this place, whose name I assume refers to a hilarious SNL game-show parody (with Tom Hanks as the host) called "Jew, Not a Jew" in which contestants guessed about famous people's yiddishkeit.
Just got off the phone with my friend Elaina (a jewish girlfriend) and she said she never considered marrying a non-Jew, and therefore never dated a non-Jew. It's the religious thing, which is the same as the cultural thing, which is the same thing as the familial thing (her parents wouldn't approve). She added "it would have made my life more complicated; who needs that." I read her the bit on the black women vs jewish women thing and she said, "I'm sure there are some historical parallels there, and ya know the way you grow up, what parents and friends tell you, and what's considered "normal" totally shapes who you are...if dating outside your race or religion just isn't done---isn't "accepted" or whatever--- that considerably influences the way you view things." I'll call my girlfriend Beza later and ask her what she thinks.
Interesting topic. I have to agree with everything you and Phoebe said both. As a black woman, it's one of those things that is so deep down, emotionally, that it's really hard to call up any particular one (or even several) feelings and say "that's it!"
One thing that I would love to ask Jewish women is about their status as perpetuaters of Jewishness. I once found myself attracted to a Jewish man, who then informed me that as a Jewish man he couldn't date me, which obviously hurt my feelings. When I looked up stuff to find out what the heck he meant by this, I found out how much interracial marriage is frowned upon, but I also found that children born to Jewish women are automatically Jewish (or at least, that's what I understood). From that perspective, it seems that it should be easier for Jewish women to date "out," and I realize that all the intrfaith marriages I am aware of are indeed Jewish female/Christian male.
Another dynamic is that television pretty much always seems to portray black women dating out, but in real life (and statistically) it is more typical for black men to do so. Despite this, there is enormous pressure on black women to stay race-faithful, with men in the community being pretty harsh in their opinions of women who do otherwise.
Seems I didn't come to a closing point there - but I did want to join this conversation.
QT
@Queen Tiye:
I believe PEW (or a similar organization, I am still trying to find the link again) did a really interesting survey on interracial dating and polled most major ethnic groups on their attitudes.
If my memory serves me correctly, I believe the study indicated that the group least likely to engage in interracial dating is African American women. I believe they may have listed to most common reasons for this too.
I'll look for the link again if you're interested. It was a really interesting piece.
"Is there any resonance between how black women and Jewish women see themselves?"
Probably. But I've always assumed, and this is based on observations made by a large close knit Jewish population in grade school, that there were stronger community ties amongst Jewish families to combat any insecurities that might occur from the "historical experience of never being held up as anyone's flower of virtuosity, but instead as un-feminine and oversexed."
Seconded, but I'll also throw Matisyahu out for consideration.
Well, my memory clearly did not serve me correctly, as the PEW numbers I'm now looking at clearly indicate that African American women are NOT the least likely to support interracial dating. My apologies for the error.
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/304/guess-whos-coming-to-dinner
I do remember reading that recently, but it may likely serve as a good example of how statistics can be manipulated to achieve a desired result.
I told you months ago, not Lieberman!
We'll take Winehouse, though.
And there are other interesting parallels between black and Jewish women, at least from what this Jewish man can see. Neither are widely known for being timid, dull, meek, weak, or stupid.
Not to nit-pick, but is there a particular ethnic group known for being timid, dull, meek, week or stupid?
I'm going to go out there and say that I disagree with the premise of the question. The old saying (joke?) goes that when you have a group of 3 Jews, there are 4 opinions. Speaking purely for myself, I don't want a "spokesman" to get up and grandstand on behalf of myself and my co-religionists. Just like all African-Americans don't follow Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton's banner, and all women don't worship at the altar of NOW, we Jews can't be pigeon-holed to have a "spokesman."
Unless, that is, this post was a joke, in which case I'd have to agree with Jon Stewart doing the bombed joke voice.
It's gotta be either Jon Stewart, Sarah Silverman, or Einstein.
Funny reading this. I was on Phoebe's blog early this AM, reading the same entry after she responded to a comment I made on a Culture11 blog. Small world.
Anyway, a couple inter-ethic marriage stories, courtesy of my mom (Jewish) and my dad (Irish Catholic)
1) My parent meet in Chicago, fall in love, start to make arrangements to move to DC and marry. A "youth rabbi" gets wind of this and sits my mom down to make sure she understands what it means to marry an Jersey City Irish Catholic (ie talk her out of it). Doesn't matter that my father is a former Marine Corp officer, doesn't matter that the reason they're going to DC is because my father has been accepted to GT Medical School. As far as the rabbi is concern, my mom is about to marry Ryan O'Rielly from "Oz."
2) My parents have just moved into their first GT apartment, and my mom meets a neighbor at the mail box. As the story goes, it's the first time she introduces herself to anyone with her married name; Lydia O'Rielly. "Oh,' comes the response from the neighbor, "a nice jewish girl." My mom nods in affirmation, not even aware of the meta-awkwardness of the moment.
As for me, the strongest part of my own identity as a Jew is that whether or not I've fired them, once a year I take my guns out and clean them and oil them; and the strongest part of my identity as an Irishman is my belief that who gets to be "white" has more to do with gun and money that anything else.
Yes. And that resonance extends to Koreans, Muslims, and pretty much every identity group. My best friend went round and round with his parents because he was marrying a Republican, for Christ's sake. You try dating a Korean girl with first generation immigrant parents and see how far you get.
There must be some sort of herd preservation gene linked here (probably stating the obvious).
Last I heard, Jewish women weren't considering the interracial dating option because of a perceived dearth of "good Jewish men" out in the world...
I think that Black women's opinions on interracial dating depends on the question you're asking. "Are you opposed to Black men dating interracially?" and "Are you opposed to interracial dating for yourself (or other Black women)?" are two different questions, and will likely get you two different answers from the same person.
Double standard? Maybe. Part of that beautiful contradictory nature you're always going on about TC
People are tribal by nature and can wary of outside groups, particularly if they've spent most of their lives living almost exclusively within their own tribe.
So yes, there is a common resonance between both men and women when it comes to interracial dating.
Matt,
The spokesman for blacks is Billy Dee Williams.
The spokesman for whites is Big or Rich from Big and Rich.
The Jews are getting a spokesman whether you like it or not.
Just got off the phone with my friend Elaina (a jewish girlfriend) and she said she never considered marrying a non-Jew, and therefore never dated a non-Jew.
And frankly, good on her. A Jewish guy in one of my college classes said he would only marry a Jew once he was old enough to be ready for that kind of commitment, but was perfectly happy to date the goyim until then. He was completely flabbergasted when the shiksas came down on him like a ton of bricks. It was hilarious; the poor guy truly could not understand the idea that ANY woman would be offended by the attitude that she's not marriageable, but perfectly fine for a rather meaningless sexual relationship.
All the intrfaith marriages I am aware of are indeed Jewish female/Christian male.
Interesting. All the marriages I know, including my aunt & uncle back in the day, are the opposite, and the Gentile female is Catholic 99% of the time. There's a reason the first long-running Broadway hit back in the 1920s was Abie's Irish Rose. I saw a documentary about the Catskills recently where they interviewed the stand-up comedians of the time. Jerry Stiller talked about how tough it was to get gigs in the borscht belt, because one of the purposes of those resorts was matchmaking, and having "Stiller & Meara" on the playbill . . . kinda undercut the whole idea.
"As far as the rabbi is concern, my mom is about to marry Ryan O'Rielly from "Oz.""
Hilarious! Funniest thing I've read all week.
I don't really know a damn thing about why black women don't date outside their race. Being an open-minded person who dated outside my race in my college years, my personal feeling is that anyone who rejects potential partners out-of-hand based on race or ethnicity is small-minded and a racist.
But I do think just based on observation here in New York (particularly financial district) that this phenomenon seems to be breaking down, probably due to more integrated workplaces.
And Jews, hear me out on this. I used to run into Jackie Mason at Artie's Deli on the Upper West Side (which is actually non-Kosher). The man's act is really his life. He never turns it off. You definately don't want him as your spokesperson, which I suppose makes him qualified from TNC's perspective.
I've found with TNC's spokespeople that they need to be a bit of a condescending figure to the people they represent (ie. how others view the group, not how the group views itself). Who's more condescending than Joe Leiberman?
As far as ethno-female identity goes, I think it stems a more pronounced or one-sided version of the Madonna / Whore complex that all women have to face. Black women tend to face a more one-sided depiction because of the disproportionate poverty in the black community, imo. There's a similar stereotype of the "trailer trash" white woman who has tons of children out of wedlock and can't stop hooking up with random men. I suspect (I have no numbers at my disposal to back this up) that income and race / ethnicity actually have very little bearing on the amount of partners a woman has. However, factors such as easy access to and affordabilty of contraception and family planning services as well as (again something I suspect) the willingness of a man to support a child or stay with a woman based on his ability to financially support a family create a misperception.
I’ve spent a significant amount of time living overseas (Africa, Europe and Asia)and there is one common meme coming from the men in these countries, which dovetails nicely with this conversation.
In every single country, I’ve heard guys bitching about how their women are un-feminine, oversexed, stuck-up, obsessed with rich guys, prude, etc, etc. In each instance, they recommend dating a woman from a different ethnic/national group.
Perhaps a lot of this simply has to do with guys and their own sexual frustration in attracting the opposite sex? A kind of grass is greener on the other side, sort of thing?
Just thinking aloud here…
"It was hilarious; the poor guy truly could not understand the idea that ANY woman would be offended by the attitude that she's not marriageable, but perfectly fine for a rather meaningless sexual relationship."
I dated a guy like that once. His defense? It's my mom, not me! She's the one with the problem.
"Black women tend to face a more one-sided depiction because of the disproportionate poverty in the black community,"
Tom B.
Are you saying that white men won't date black women because they're insecure about financially supporting children?
I'm not trying to pick a fight...I just don't understand your point.
I always thought black women and Asian men had the most in common as far as not marrying outside their 'tribe'.
What, all these comments and no nominations for Rahm Emanuel?
"It was hilarious; the poor guy truly could not understand the idea that ANY woman would be offended by the attitude that she's not marriageable, but perfectly fine for a rather meaningless sexual relationship."
It's not just women who are offended by this. Think about it. How would you feel if another ethnic group saw women (or men, for that matter) from your community as nothing more than objects of sexual gratification? I reckon you'd be pretty pissed off.
I'm engaged to be married to a Chinese-American woman (I'm white) and I've had multiple times where other Asian-Americans have openly said to me that they're happy I'm actually marrying this woman, because they're so sick of seeing white guys date Asian women simply for sex, but when it's time to actually marry, they kick them to the curb like garbage. I'm not for one minute claiming that this attitude is representative of the Asian-American community (as if such a monolithic group actually existed), but it's a sentiment that is out there and I can certainly empathize with it.
Hell, I lived in Japan and Korea for nearly 5 years and saw plenty of instances where people there turned white women into a fetish object and saw them purely as sexual objects and nothing more (again, not saying this is widespread, but it certainly does happen) It pissed me off, so I reckon it also pisses off everybody else too.
I hope this post made sense.
I'm engaged to be married to a Chinese-American wo
It was hilarious; the poor guy truly could not understand the idea that ANY woman would be offended by the attitude that she's not marriageable, but perfectly fine for a rather meaningless sexual relationship.
I see this in some Arab people too. They sleep with the white women, but there parents would be pissed if they didn't marry one of their own.
I remember there was speculation about JFK Jr. possibly marrying Daryl Hannah, one pundit remarked that his grandfather must be rolling in his grave because he though actresses where for screwing, not marrying.
"is there a particular ethnic group known for being timid, dull, meek, weak or stupid?"
Not real common, but I think the Burmese might have been stereotyped that way. The British Empire had a group of ethnic groups that they deemed passive and only fit for clerical jobs.
Tessa,
I don't think your experience (most of the Jews you know will only marry other Jews) squares with the data. Don't something like 42% of Jews marry non Jews?
"The British Empire had a group of ethnic groups that they deemed passive and only fit for clerical jobs."
Damn right. They used this concept of "subject races" as opposed to governing races to justify their Empire and "protectorates"... the limey c_cks_ck_rs.
But enough of that, I'm three generations from being Irish and they're our allies after all.
My exwife would laugh when the word "shiksa" came up. To some degree this whole idea is fraught with contradictions and complexities. One factor is generational: my uncle gave up the love of his life because she was Catholic and did not wind up marrying until he was in his fifties. And I also think it has to do with staying connected to community. I moved to Berkeley, CA in the 60s to go to UC Berkeley. Not only did I simply know fewer and fewer Jewish women, but I met more and more women that were not Jewish. The times and place were such that limiting oneself whether you were a woman or a man made no sense; it was simply a thing that many Jewish people of my generation did not think about, although it meant a lot to our parents, who came out of the holoacaust generation and decades of antisemitism in the US in which a Christian dating a Jewish man or woman was frowned upon universally. As one poster above also pointed out, a serious issue is that Judaism is a matrilineal situation: the father doesn't matter, but the mother does. That said, when my mother's sister married a gentile, her mother declared her dead to the family.
I have, reflecting on my own youthful attractions, considered that there might have been a psychological sense of exclusion from America that I felt growing up that might have made non Jewish women more attractive as connections to an American identity, but from the perspective of being a single man in his sixties these days, I simply think it's a good thing that Americans date, make love, and marry with whomever they choose. I am not saying that cultural background doesn't come into play in relationships; it does of course, but love is rare, sacred really, and the rest seems like nonsense to me.
BelleIsa,
Actually my point didn't address the fact that many white men don't date black women. What I was trying to convey is that an attitude towards a racial group (black women are more sexual) may be more easily explained by economics (the less money someone has, the easier it is to handle / deal with / hide the consequences of promiscuity). As far as the white men / black women thing goes... I don't have much of an answer. It probably has to do with an element of racism (not that every white guy who hasn't dated a black woman is racist) as well as continuing segregation. A lot of white men don't interact very much with black women.
I hope it is not too late to nominate, but I would like to go with Spock and or Kirk.
Unless, of course, you are a homosexual.
Typo in my above post. I meant to say "the less money someone has, the HARDER it is to handle..."
Zacksback,
So...do you support Celtic or Rangers? There is, of course, only one correct answer...
@ Mr. Roboto:
You just reminded me of a hilarious Point/Counterpoint in the Onion a few years back. The Point was this college girl studying in Italy saying how all the Italian men are so romantic. The Counterpoint was the Italian man saying all American women are easy. Absolutely hilarious.
"I'm going to go out there and say that I disagree with the premise of the question. The old saying (joke?) goes that when you have a group of 3 Jews, there are 4 opinions. Speaking purely for myself, I don't want a "spokesman" to get up and grandstand on behalf of myself and my co-religionists. Just like all African-Americans don't follow Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton's banner, and all women don't worship at the altar of NOW, we Jews can't be pigeon-holed to have a "spokesman."
Unless, that is, this post was a joke, in which case I'd have to agree with Jon Stewart doing the bombed joke voice."
Heh, you don't come around these parts much do you?
all funny stuff.
when i was a ragingly horny 16 year old, and even a glance at a black and white newspaper photo of a woman that showed a half-inch inch of cleavage gave me a one of the lurking, dangerous boners, just looking for trouble, my jewish buds were fundamentally convinced as a religious and cultural tenet, that shiksas were loose, and my goyim buds were just as convinced that the zaftig jewish babes were literally dying to get nailed, i found that my shrewed and ruthless attempts at even undoing one of those three hooked bras's on a young lass was humiliatingly impossible.
in 1963, neither shiksas or big breasted jewish 16 year olds were 'easy' in any sense of the word. 1963 was a difficult year for we few, we mighty mighty band of brothers.
but, we never gave up, and god willing, we were rewarded (eventually) for our sacrifices...
@Charles:
I remember that, and it sums up my thoughts on that subject nicely. Dōmo arigatō from Mr. Roboto!
Sorry for bringing the Styx into this. I will perform 10 hours of self-flagellation as penance.
There are what, 14 million Jews in the world? That's a pretty absurd limit to your options, especially if you're living somewhere other than Israel or New York. Many people I know who identify as Jewish aren't completely genetically Jewish. (Most of them aren't religious either, but choose some cultural understanding of Jewishness to base their identity on.) My Jewish mother married a wasp. Her brother married an Iranian muslim. My grandmother gets along fine with my father and doesn't get along too well with my aunt, but my entirely Jewish cousin also married a muslim woman, and his mother gets along with her very well. Even now that they're divorced, the Jewish former mother in law is closer to the Muslim mother of her grandson than she is to my cousin's current Jewish wife. So in my family this is pretty much not an issue at all.
But none of these people are religious, and the families all came to America pre-holocaust, so both those things contribute to attitudes a lot. As a product of some mixing, I've never felt any pressure to marry anyone of a specific background. If anything, I've been encouraged to look outside my identity, as the only member of my family who married within his strict ethnic bounds (my father's brother) has become isolated from the rest of the family by turning into an evangelical Christian.
Unless, of course, you are a homosexual.
Posted by Tony Comstock
Yes, the marry thing has to be changed, will be changed--but date, make love, and partner up--it goes on in America. And homophobia appears to be an intramural sport, despite Andrew Sullivan's desire to localize his frustrations with a single group of Americans.
I hope you won't take this the wrong way, but given the nature of the thread and in the spirit of looking at our ongoing human foibles, I wonder does anyone know if a Jewish man hooks up with a blond goy gay, is there a word like shiksa for such a fellow? And do Jewish families draw the lines with their gay or lesbian sons and daughters about dating outside the tribe?
Wha? This makes about as much sense as saying BHO isn't completely genetically black.
is there a word like shiksa for such a fellow?
Shaygetz?
(I am not Jewish and likely got the spelling wrong. Not commenting on the dynamics -- I'm just an editorial, word-type person...)
"I don't think your experience (most of the Jews you know will only marry other Jews) squares with the data. Don't something like 42% of Jews marry non Jews?"
I have no idea. And I don't know how those figures are formulated, either. I would think the numbers would vary among practicing Jews vs non-practicing Jews, for example.
Tony Comstock,
It's not the same at all. "Jewish" is a religious designation as well as an ethnic one. Someone who's ethnically black, white, Asian, whatever, could self-identify as 100% Jewish.
Also, there's no way the spokesman can be anyone other than Larry David.
How about you ask this guyif he can "self-identify as 100% Jewish"?
Maybe by the time you get his Uzi out of your rectum, you'll realize you don't know what you think you know about race, religion, and ethnicity.
Well, having once dated one woman who was partly Jewish (on her dad's side) and later dated a black woman - my experience is that Jewish families can be a bit more of an influence in partners than black families. Granted, in the case of myself and the black GF - we were both in Chicago, while our familes were back on the East Coast, whereas the Jewish GF had family in Chicago. What made dating the black GF a bit easier was first, I was older and a bit more experienced, two - she had dated non-black men before, and knew that things could get complicated. Granted, my being Indian-American was less of an issue for her than if I were a white guy. She was also five years older than me, and maybe just lowered her standards. Plus, I've always had a soft-spot for bougie black women. Nor did I experience any hostility or stares from most other black people when we were seen together.
"Unless, of course, you are a homosexual.
I hope you won't take this the wrong way, but given the nature of the thread and in the spirit of looking at our ongoing human foibles, I wonder does anyone know if a Jewish man hooks up with a blond goy gay, is there a word like shiksa for such a fellow? And do Jewish families draw the lines with their gay or lesbian sons and daughters about dating outside the tribe?"
Yes, many jewish families draw the line about dating outside the tribe- I don't care if my kids are gay, bi, or straight- as long as they partner/marry a jew and create a jewish family (however, one defines "family")
Signed, a progressive, straight, conservative jew.
Timid and weak? Yeah, women. But not Jewish or black women. (Asians, often, but I was thinking about the stereotypes of women that aren't often ascribed to blacks and Jews.)
Dull and meek? Yeah, women. But not Jewish or black women. (And for an ethnicity, Poles spring to mind)
Stupid? Yeah, women.
Well, you get the idea.
I nominate Jerry Stiller.
That reminds me of my favorite Stiller line from King of Queens: "I haven't had this much fun since Socialist Summer Camp!"
On a more somber note, it kills me that, as an Irish-American, I got nothing to contribute, and no spokesman but Whitey. My peeps sold out first chance they got to become 'white' and look what it got us - Bill O'Reilly. Let this be a lesson, my non-Anglo brothers and sisters.
Adam Serwer takes a crack at answering your question:
http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/tapped_archive?month=12&year=2008&base_name=love_jones
To my aunt and my grandmother (both northern Italian) Sicillians were scum. Don't ask me why I don't know how anyone can hate someone else just because they come from a little farther south but that's the way it is. Personally I think that in many respects the whole Northern/Southern Italian thing mirrors the split between Ashkenazic/Sephardic Jews which I don’t really understand much either. The only thing that I do know from personal experience is that there are people who will hate you no matter who you are. If a person’s family relationship isn’t all that great to begin with then the family will probably see any person the individual brings home as lacking in some capacity.
One of the problems with marriage is that we don’t just marry the person we love. The other person’s family is part of the deal, for better or worse.
I don’t know much about bigotry and dating. I know that when you find a person you love that nothing else seems to matter. Race, ethnicity, eye color, hair texture, and even weight don’t really matter. Sometimes identity tags keep us from seeing the real person. As a man I value strength of character, intelligence, and ability to plan above everything else. I think most women look for certain character traits more than they look for physical attractiveness. Once men reach a certain age most of us do too. In 50 years all of us will be ugly, but the point is in having someone you can be ugly with who loves you anyway. Hell, if I could find someone like that I wouldn’t care if she had chronic athletes foot (a much bigger issue than ethnicity). Ultimately we place too much emphasis on the topical in relationships. If a person’s religion is the issue one can always convert (although I don’t know how this is handled in Jewish Circles). Everything seems resolvable there are fundamental differences of character between two people.
I nearly swallowed my tongue!
(Have I told my "Three British officers..." joke yet?)
I would agree that Asian Men and Black Women have the most in common in this respect. However, as a Japanese male, I'm currently dating an East Indian female. The haterade crosses all lines, trust me.
It's kind of shocking if nobody has brought up the "Asian thing". I think if you look at actual percentages rather than say, anecdotal evidence, Asian women are more likely to date or marry outside of their group than anybody else.
I loved one of those studies on interracial dating that showed that while in most scenarios, a man of a different race had to make more money than a man of the same race to be considered by a woman of that race, Asian women were willing to take white men at a steep discount, and most discouraging of all, an Asian man had to make more money than a black or Latino man to be considered by an Asian woman.
This leaves your average Asian man in a bad place unless he can figure out how to appeal to black or Jewish women--but as far as I can tell, he needs to be making more money than black or Jewish men in order to appeal to them too.
So, dating is kind of difficult for Asian men. The converse of this is that men of all races seem to like Asian women. As for why so many Asian women are with white guys? I think it's just because we can...
this is a very complicated issue. it's a weird thing being a black woman and being a progressive but still having a visceral negative reaction when i see black men dating non black women. interestingly, i do not feel the same way when i see black women dating non black men. (or, incidentally, when i know the individuals involved as then assumptions about the cultural signals that are getting sent dissolve in the face of my personal knowledge of the couple as a couple).
this is definitely a double standard, but it's based on the fact that the extraracial (is that a word?) coupling of these two categories of folks carries very different social connotations for reasons that you've kind of summed-up re: the perception of black women as undesirable and/or oversexed and white women as genuinely feminine signs of upward mobility and success.
obviously, all of that is also deeply and uncomfortably tied to a patriarchal narrative in which the women is, in fact, little more than a sign -- a signal to the world about the status of the man she's with, but i digress.
anyway, black women dating interracially, on the other hand, does not, generally speaking, signal disrespect for black manhood qua black manhood. at least not the way i was socialized.
but, then again, i recognize this thinking as pretty tiresome, and also, as i grow older, in some sense, just tired.
i think that the current generation of youngsters may have different ideas about beauty and success than gen y and older and the traditional codes may no longer signify the same way that they used to.
for example, my eight-year-old white godson has the hardest time understanding what exactly was so deeply offensive about brown skin that folks made laws to keep people apart. when he was five and had only just learned about the civil rights movement, he thought that folks just picked whatever color they didn't like to hate. prompting him to say of a ruddy-faced bully down the street: "i don't like him because of the colors on his skin!"
indeed. our problems with race and racism in this country persist, of course, but they do not have the same shape as those of our parents and i think we have to be willing to think about things in new ways to accurately identify the problems and opportunities presented by inter-relating in these times. anyway, that's what i'm personally committed to.
anyway, this is a ramble, but i wanted to close by saying that i really appreciate that you create a space for this kind of low-key yet serious and honest dialogue about race. it's a rare thing, TNC, and you definitely deserve props. thanks.
"On a more somber note, it kills me that, as an Irish-American, I got nothing to contribute, and no spokesman but Whitey."
In an episode of The Sopranos, Dr. Melfi teases her Italian-American ex-husband for dating nothing but Irish gals after their divorce. "We all know you're a sucker for them Colleens. Every Italian boy bows down to the freckles." In the case of my best friend from high school, an Italian guy, that was definitely the case. He married an Irish girl, saying that would be the most acceptable non-Italian choice in his family.
"But I do think just based on observation here in New York (particularly financial district) that this phenomenon seems to be breaking down, probably due to more integrated workplaces."
This began happening in the Army about 25 years ago. No one paid much attention at the itme if they were both officers or both enlisted. But God help the witless idiots marked for destruction who dated across the officer/enlisted line. The social opprobrium was worse than the legal prohibition, and that's saying something - it's basically a felony.
Thanks Steve
Just goes to show. I understand the need, desire, but for myself, I just want my kids to be happy, and I don't see, coming from an extremely dysfunctional Jewish family, that a Jewish family life is the key to that.
I remember my Bar Mitzvah almost a half century ago. I had been a star student at Hebrew school, so it had been expected that I would fly through the whole thing, but for some reason in my anxiety I cut the Cantor out of one of his singing parts. My Rabbi, who had huge hands, grabbed me by the arm and squeezed for all he was worth and in a voice loud enough for the first ten rows to hear said "JESUS CHRIST, didn't you study?"
That said it all for me about ethnic and religious purity, and I never looked back after that, though I love Passover, and the Days of Awe, the Jubilee, and leaving fruit on the tree and vine for passersby who are hungry, and my sense of God--awe, Weisel's concept of speaking truth to power that I have lived a public life by for good and ill, and my opinionated chattiness are fundamentally Jewish in temperment.
Personally, I hope, however, that before my descendants have done with it, they will have embraced all continents, religions, ethnicities--the human race. Call me a dreamer, but it's a dream of mine.
Jim wrote:
"This began happening in the Army about 25 years ago. No one paid much attention at the itme if they were both officers or both enlisted. But God help the witless idiots marked for destruction who dated across the officer/enlisted line. The social opprobrium was worse than the legal prohibition, and that's saying something - it's basically a felony."
Still the case as anyone whose been in can attest to. Makes for interesting stories. I know a SSG married to a captain because they got married and she decided to go to OCS. The parralells are hard though. I see the whole officer/enlisted dating thing as worse than dating your secretary. No offense intended to anyone who has ever dated their boss but that in my opinion is the only social dating taboo that still holds water. Dating someone under your employ is a form of exploitation. Its like prostitution or slavery in a very real sense.
Just off the phone with my gay Jewish uncle (who, as it happens, has been in a relationship with a blonde, blue-eyed fellow for about the last 15 years.)
The word you are looking for is "mitzvah".
Tony tell your uncle--Good yom tov. He made me smile.
Middle-aged white Jewish woman here, and my vote for spokesman for the Jews is Jon Stewart. Ta-Nehisi, I'm assuming the Lieberman line was a joke.
Yes, shiksa is a rude word. Shaygetz is the male equivalent, but it's not as loaded. Shiksa is most often coupled with blonde ("my son is MARRYING that blonde shiksa--he's DEAD to me!").
There is enormous pressure in the Jewish community to marry inside the Tribe. I married outside, and it broke my father's heart. My great-uncle Sam married outside, and his family (my great-grandparents Glazel) sat shiva for him and never saw him again their whole lives long.
There is pressure ON Jewish women to marry a Jewish man. But Jewish men are not always seen as the prize. There are jokes ("How do you know Jesus was Jewish?" "He lived at home until he was 30, he went into his father's business, he thought his mother was a virgin and his mother thought he was God") about how problematic it can be to find a good Jewish man. While Jewish American Princesses got all the press, the reality is Jewish American Princes.
But I don't look at a Jewish man marrying outside his religion as a betrayal of me. I'm not particularly interested in or attracted to most Jewish men. I've only dated two in my entire life, and one of those was when I was working on a kibbutz in Israel so my non-Jewish options were nil. As a Jewish woman, I know that if I had children they would be considered Jewish automatically by any rabbinic court in the world. If I had had kids, with a man of any other faith, I would probably have tried to raise them as Jews, despite being what my mom calls a "stomach Jew" (culturally but not observantly Jewish).
So, no, I'm not seeing the parallels to black women's attitudes towards interracial dating (such as they are, and we saw in your comments that they are diverse) and Jewish women's attitudes towards interfaith dating.
I would be more likely to draw a parallel between African-American parents' attitudes to their kids' involvement in interracial relationships, and Jewish parents' attitudes towards their kids marrying outside the faith.
I'm a white guy who once fell really hard for a black woman. First time that had happened. But due to circumstances that seemed beyond our control she got away from me, moved off to Europe etc. That was eight years ago now and I don't think I have ever gotten over her. She was one of the most amazing women I have ever met, just so wicked smart and absolutely beautiful. But as long "as we're talking about anything here" and all - I have to say that since my relationship with her I have found myself overwhelmingly attracted to black women in a way that I wasn't before, or at least wasn't aware of. But I do worry about this in the sense that I would hate to think that I am 'objectifying' or 'fetishsizing' or whatever. But maybe I am, I don't know. Maybe I am just trying to hold on to something that is gone forever. But it seems like its more than that. Can you be completely attracted to another ethnicity and still have that be healthy? Black women are just so beautiful. Whatever this thing is I've got it pretty bad now.
If I had my druthers John Stewart would speak for the Jews.
"First, I must preface this conversation by saying that from time to time (hourly) I google myself. That's right I said it. I'm obsessed with how the blogesphere sees me. And I don't care who knows it."
Once again, you're my hero TNC.
You're just like Amanda on Ugly Betty!
On shiksas, I'll pass along the experience of my friend Jon: Home from college on break, he showed his grandmother a stack of photos of his friends. She paged on through, finally stopping on a photo of Laura and exclaiming "So, who's the shiksa?" There were a lot of nonJews in that stack, but her powerful Jewish grandmother instincts led her directly to the girl on whom Jon was crushing and would soon start dating; they're now married. So there is some kind of powerful Jewish grandmother instinct in these things.
I think the Jews need a more exciting spokesperson that Joe. How about Michelle Obama's 3rd cousin the Chicago Rabbi?
I'm a Jewish woman who has predominately dated within my religion and who plans to marry a Jewish man. Having a few black female friends, I've definitely seen the tension in both communities when a man chooses to marry outside the group.
In the Jewish faith, it's especially stinging because Jews believe (for the most part) that religion is inherited from the mother and therefore the child of a non-Jewish woman and Jewish man is not considered Jewish by many authorities.
On the issue of JAPs, giving head, etc. I mused about the whole dichotomy among Jewish women over at my blog. Hope you'll check it out: http://shtetlfab.blogspot.com/2008/11/borscht-or-bloomingdales.html
On the Jewish guys dating boys: my mom once told me she didn't care if I brought home boys instead of girls. As long as they were Jewish.
I don't think she really meant it though.
But yeah, the way Jewish guys regard "shiksas" is really awful. There is a rhyme in the Jewish community, "Shiksas for kick-sas" - as in, get your rocks off with the non-Jewish girls now, but when you mature a bit, you settle down with a nice Jewish girl. Over the summer, I met a Jewish guy who told my friend that his crush on a non-Jewish girl was okay, because we all knew he would grow up and get with a Jewish woman eventually.
And, as for a Jewish spokesman, if we want someone on the same order as Billy Dee, why not go for Pauly Shore? Or Adam Sandler? Suitably embarrassing, but without too many political overtones?
Deleted.
Look, let's remember as enticing as this debate is alot of what is said on this subject and many threads like this is nothing more than pure and plain conjecture and opinion. Black women are more sexual? or Un-feminine? Or over-sexed?? Or is it that black women are just perceived to be more sexual along with multiple kids out of wedlock therefor oversexed. Tell me then why I see upthread that because black women are more prone to poverty and welfare that this certifies the sexual-type nonsense. Doesn't seem soundly logical to me... Perception in politics is reality, but not in humanity. These soci-economic types for black women are distinctly different from a black woman's sexuality. Note your own bias and sterotypes up-thread and what do you perpetuate...Reconsider please, I am bemused by this conversation.
I am a black woman. I am seeing a jewish man. I have dated outside the tribe before him, but did not obsess or look for reasons to not date black men or non-black men for that matter. I just don't think in those terms. Bleh, 'I only date black, cuz white is wac'. Or bleh, 'I don't date black because they dont have jobs and are all lock'd up'...stop this crazy talk to me and do you.. whatever that is. Anyway
Him, he is culturally jewish and dated beyond his religious identity group also, probably has a more colorful dating past than mine. What I find striking is 1) our collective curiosity in general for culture and diversity; and 2) how similar our upbringings were. Are parents raised us in the same fashion. Both our fathers were doctors and our mothers in the public health sector. We have more in common than we have differences.
Interestingly enough, the matter of religion wasn't even asked revealed or disclosed until after a couple of weeks, a few dinners, and several phone calls later. Him being jewish is not his sole defining attribute. Nor, for him, that my sole defining attribute is my blackness. Kupey Tet Bule Kay! Although these both are obviously big parts of who we are as human beings, but inspite of these identifiers we simply have a natural organic attraction to each other and accept these tags that many others get hung up on. We share common interests ride the same brain waves, We are compatible and very much enjoy each others presence.
So from the base of my experience I often wonder why this debate often devolves to what I've just read above. We are social creatures and human. We are pulled to sameness and security while we are equally compelled by the new or (exotic). So what if you prefer "your own" over the "other". Live and let live. The historical experiences between jewish and black women have many parallels in my opinion. This would be a topic that is worth further exploration and discussion, but also in history mankind tends to suppress the shared experience to accentuate all differences...
I am a Jewish woman who is divorced from a Jewish man. We met in synagogue, got married there, and eventually divorced. His Jewish mother was a nightmare along with the rest of his family. A few years after I met an African-American male and we became friends and eventually lovers. When my mother met him she made a comment about him being a "looser." I thought it was her racist upbringing that led her to believe that. Unfortunately, the guy was cheating on his Caucasian girlfriend. While we dated he often mistreated me and lied. That would be why my mother would want me to be with a Jew. My ex was a faithful, hard-working man who treated me like a queen. Jews think they are raised right and so want their children to live a happy life with other Jews who are honest and have integrity. Even though my heart still aches over my African-American lover, he will never be the man I need or want him to be.
On the other hand, when I dated my him I heard comments like, "Do you really want to bring a black baby into this world?" Or how it's my fault other African-American women don't have a man because I'm decreasing their pool to choose from. Or getting the stigma of someone loudly declaring "There's your type!" whenever an African-American male would walk by me at a party. I loved and would've married him (if he could actually be honest and monogamous) regardless of what my family thought. Despite this bad experience, I am still open to dating men outside of my race and religion and now find myself more attracted to black men.
If anyone's interested Harlan Ellison did a great story about this in Mom where a young Jewish man is haunted by the ghost of his mother. The name of the story is "Mom". I have a copy at the house, but I wasn't able to find one online to link to.
Since you like poetry, TNC, may I offer Paul Celan's terrifying Death Fugue (http://mason.gmu.edu/~lsmithg/deathfugue.html) as an example of the historical unpleasantness of looking "too Jewish."
File this subject under moot point. Somebody had a poll out recently showing how the youngest voting age cohort embraces post-racial attitudes toward dating and marriage (and I assume voting for president). And the Jewish question specifically is moot as well, considering there was a 47% intermarriage rate for couples from 1996-2001. That's up from 13% before 1970. Among non-orthodox, my 3 siblings and I are a rarity in that we all married Jews. But as an old Jewish fart (49), I do share the discomfort some Black women feel toward what can be seen as a betrayal of history and sacrifice.
I mean, really, if Woody Allen is going to marry his girlfriend's adopted daughter, couldn't he have found a nice Jewish girl to screw up her life? Seriously, you can't put these two names--Maria de Lourdes Villiers-Farrow and Allan Stewart Konigsberg (Woody)--in the same sentence without reaching for a bad punchline.
I've long thought that there's a parallel between the way the words JAP and ho are used in connection with Jewish and black culture, respectively. I'm not saying they mean the same thing--they don't. But they both invoke a negative stereotype of women within each group, and most curiously, many people seem to be comfortable using the terms based on the unstated assumption that the terms are more sexist than racist (and therefore acceptable to use).
There are plenty of black men in Africa and the Caribbean who are willing to date and marry African Americans and would love to come to the US. There are plenty of Asian women who will love to do the same. The difference is the white men actively seek Asian women in the Philippines but the African American women would not do the same. Power comes in numbers. If the three million or so unmarried African American women marry black men from Africa and the Caribbean, the number of blacks in this country will increase by at least three million and would hasten the day when whites become a minority in this country and racism would subside. Obama's victory was due to African Americans and the support of immigrant groups such as blacks from Africa and the Caribbean, Asians and Hispanics. Mr. Farakkhan says that black men should not marry non-black women because there is a shortage of black men. Well, Mr. Farrakhan not true..there are plenty of black moslem men in Africa where the men are over 50% of the population. Entire West Africa is populated by them. Perhaps Mr. Farrakhan you should arrange mass marriages between Africans and African Americans to increase the population of blacks in this country, so that the election of people like Obama becomes a common place, not a rarity!
To me religion is, or least can be, a bit different than race. Religion to me can relate much more strongly to worldview and general compatibility. If a staunch Mormon marries a staunch Catholic I think the odds of divorce truly are a good deal higher than most any interracial mix. Or a staunch Pentecostal and a Reform rabbi or a Scientologist and a devout Muslim. Or if the
Granted if neither person is particularly active in their religion then it might not matter, but then again it could matter more. If you know the person is strongly X then you won't be surprised later. If you marry a person who is lackadaisically X, but then goes through some kind of revival with it that might be more of a strain.
Admittedly this might not be entirely relevant as "Jewish" is both an ethnicity and a religion. The Orthodox Jewish part of the question apparently is not so fond of dating "outside", but more secularized apparently have no problem with that I take it.
A couple posters asked whether Jews' preference for other Jews extends to gay couples.
YES. First, Jewish parents, unless they're pretty religious, don't get hyped up on the gay thing the way a lot of other parents would. I think it's because rabbis haven't elevated homosexuality into the kind of "uber-sin" that its portrayed by a lot of Christian priests/ministers. But those Jewish parents would still prefer their gay kids with a Jewish partner.
Issue #1 is that even non-religious Jews (myself included) want our kids raised Jewish. Even my very secular parents sent us to weekly religious school, plus hebrew school, fasted on yom kippur and followed the passover diet. These are cultural things - we've done them for 2000 years (more pronounced in my case because I didn't grow up in NYC or Israel, where many parents think you absorb enough "Jewishness" just by living there). My sister married a Catholic, but after mutually deciding to raise the kids Jewish. That's a scenario that's palatable to most Jews.
TNC, you did nail it - this is a cultural thing. It just makes things easier - for the parents, for the kids, and the partners don't have to explain their every culturally-based proclivity in life.
The Orthodox Jewish part of the question apparently is not so fond of dating "outside", but more secularized apparently have no problem with that I take it.
I'd guess that fewer Orthodox Jews date out, but just anecdotally, I did personally attract the interest of one Orthodox Jew in my single days, as well as a decidedly larger number of Reform and secular ones.
"This leaves your average Asian man in a bad place unless he can figure out how to appeal to black or Jewish women--but as far as I can tell, he needs to be making more money than black or Jewish men in order to appeal to them too."
Part of the problem in Asian communities is that while individual Asian ethnicities prefer to marry within their own group, they are not averse to marrying whites as a second choice. For instance, Chinese parents want their kids to marry Chinese. However, if that is not possible marry white. But, the kids would be disowned if they married Vietnamese, Korean, Japanese or Asian ethnicities and in some families blacks are also preferred to marrying other Asian ethnicities. I know families where this has happened. This also true of South Asians. If they marry Indian, preference is for the same caste, otherwise the families prefer that the kids marry whites and not an Indian of another caste. There was this Jain family in India...when the young lady in that family was dating a highly educated South Indian Hindu, they basically married her off to another Jain and threatened her ex-boyfriends's life. However, her sister marrying a white Jewish man from the US was OK...and there was an elaborate wedding in Mumbai. Incidentally the couple escaped the recent Mumbai terrorist attacks..they were dining at the hotel when the gunmen showed up!
You probably are onto something first time I've heard that theory put forward. Fact of the matter is that still neglects the fact that there are black women out there who refuse to date black men though. There are other black women, perhaps you would say more progressive or whatever may be the case, that are not only open to interracial dating but just aren't interested in dating black men. The same probably holds true for Jewish women as well. I have always thought it was not so much the objectification, because quite honestly it is not as though black men had not objectified black women or treated them that much better, but some sense of wanting to keep the race together in general, that black women didn't date interracially. Of course I could be wrong, but it is an interesting theory.
I'm an Asian guy married to a white woman. I'm also rather put off by the notion of dating or marrying to carry on some grand racial or ethnic perpetuation scheme. What happened to personal attraction? I'll admit that I've always been more attracted to white women (in general), but I never crossed an entire group off the list because of some silliness like wanting to perpetuate my race. I really find that attitude sad and pathetic. Do you really want to be 80 years old and think back, "Wow, that girl way back when was fantastic and lovely and we would have been great together. Too bad I dumped her because of her imperfect racial stock."