...is to refer to black people as "the most homophobic racial group in America." Expect this to be about as effective as Barack Obama campaigning in the South and calling it "the most racist region of the country." It'd be true in the most reductive sense. Meanwhile the actual story on this isn't so reductive.
Among the conclusions--58 percent of all Dems think it's acceptable to have a baby outside of marriage, but only 39 percent of black Dems think so. 51 percent of all Dems think abortion is morally acceptable, only 37 percent of black Dems think so. 64 percent of Dems think sex between unmarried is acceptable, but only 40 percent of blacks do. 57 percent of all Dems think the death penalty is morally acceptable. Only 47 percent of blacks agree. What are you seeing here? Here's a hint--76 percent of all black dems attend church weekly, as compared with only 50 percent of nonblack Dems. Black Dems are actually more church-going than Republicans.
A zealous religiosity doesn't explain it all, but it explains a lot. More on that explanation later today.
The Beautiful Struggle: A Father, Two Sons, and an Unlikely Road to Manhood 
Copyright © 2010 by The Atlantic Monthly Group. All rights reserved.
So zealous religiousity explains a lot in regard to black homophobia. Let's assume that it explains it all. I'm not sure how this disproves Sullivan's statement that blacks are the most homophobic racial group. It's an explanation perhaps, but to the extent that you believe that homophobia is a moral evil, religious zealotry doesn't provide you an excuse. I suppose you might be arguing that it's inappropriate to categorize by race when religion is the true culprit. But I don't think this makes Sullivan's statement any less true.
As someone wiser than me once said in this comments section, Sullivan is 100% intelligence and 100% emotion (or something like that). He's making a strong declaration here about black homophobia because (I think): (1) its an intensely personal issue for him; and (2) because he wants people like TNC to engage in a dialogue.
Ice-T vs that kid, Atlantic style!
laborlibert
If you look at the analogy Coates posted both statements could be seen as true. But just like Obama calling the south racist wouldn't have won him any votes, Sully calling blacks "the most homophobic blah blah blah" isn't helping him win any converts in the black community either.
Coates I have one word for you
EXACTLY!
Well done my friend, well done.
I'm getting sick of Sullivan. He does himself no favors with his generalizations. Seeing as I can't actually comment on Sullivan's blog, which is all the more frustrating when he decides to make his daily declarations that warrant rebuttal, I'll comment here.
The x factor here is religion, not race. If someone asked the 30% of republican respondants who responded negatively to homosexual relationships what their feelings on religion were, I imagine that the majority would be christian. Sullivan and his ilk keep yammering on about doing outreach to the blacks which smacks of doing missionary work with the natives. If you want to attack the problem, you have to start in church. It is where blacks and whites alike are indoctrinated with homophobia. One could argue that rather than approaching one race, a more efficient strategy would be to approach an institution that serves a wider swath.
libert: the point isn't that black people are homophobic, but that they're religious. homophobia probably isn't an implicit trait in this case, but instead it's inspired by what they hear at church. if you want to make black folks see your point of view on most issues, start with their preacher. if you can bring him around, you've literally got yourself a pulpit from which to spread the word that gay people aren't going to bring pissed off angels and firey rain and armageddon and whatnot.
This is why the "outreach" will never work.
1. Homophobia means fear of the same, or fear of homosexuals. This long ago became a virulent slur for anyone who does not agree with that way of life, just as pro-lifers call pro-choicers baby-killers, and vice versa, anti-choice/pro-punishment.
2. In their own ignorance, a good chunk of White liberals seem to forget that we are their most loyal base, even though most of us our conservatives. They continually attack our foundation for survival which has been family unit + religion, and expect us to hang up our alt and vote with them every 2+ years
3. Basically, Sullivan just said, "A pox on the niggers for not agreeing with Homosexuality. Enjoy your Aids."
Yeah. Great way to outreach. Ass.
Long time reader, first time commenter.
I agree with many of the comments here. As a frequent reader of both TNC and Sullivan, I've been dismayed by his blanket statments about Black and Homophobia. I certainly know that 70% of the black folks I know, are NOT homophobic and I was raised in a God-fearing Southern household. Even my mom, who is pretty into the southern black church is not homophobic. Some other relatives, not so much. But as with all other ethnic groups, those views change for the most part outside of my parents generation. Most of the younger black americans I know, definitely support gay rights and gay marriage. I think the whole "black people" are homophobic jive is overblown and like many people said mostly attributed to religion than the race itself. Not to say I am excusing black folks for their beliefs and the effects its had on our community, our own views of sexuality and the HIV/AIDS epidemic, but I think the Dan Savages and unfortunately the Andrew Sullivan's need to take a breather. Especially with that 70% figure. As my sister loves to say, "black people are not the borg" we don't all have some sort of collective mindset. I wish the media and now angry bloggers would stop assuming that.
Also. How did Homophobia go from meaning
inexplicable-diagnosed-fear-of Homosexuality, (on the side of mental illness)... toooo...
I dunno. "Racist-against-Gays"?
I agree with you.
I am a longtime reader of Sullivan, but he's really going overboard with this whole labeling black people as the most homophobic group. I have chuckled off a few things like his obsession with the Palin baby thing. That's fair game. But to basically put the whole blame on Prop 8 on the shoulders of black people is beyond the pale.
He needs to stop. He's about to lose a usually open-minded reader.
"Sully calling blacks "the most homophobic blah blah blah" isn't helping him win any converts in the black community either."
I don't think that Sullivan is the one trying to win any converts. I don't even think that's his job. I think he is trying to push the discussion. While its clear he's probably not going about it the best way, its also clear its kind of effective. I mean, we're talking about it over here now, right?
Although every time I read Sullivan say crap like this, I can't help but feel that's he's trying to goad TNC. Mabye I'm just a little defensive of this blog here.
@dragonflyingash: "black people are not the borg" is the best thing I've heard all week. The next time I have this arguement, which will be soon, "Black people are not the borg" will be my refrain.
And I totally agree with Queixada above:
*Basically, Sullivan just said, "A pox on the niggers for not agreeing with Homosexuality. Enjoy your Aids."*
That's absolutely what he was saying. If a black person said that about the gay community as a whole, all shit would hit the fan. How in the world would he think that would be acceptable in the converse?
While its clear he's probably not going about it the best way, its also clear its kind of effective. I mean, we're talking about it over here now, right?
Well, we're talking about it in the context of "man, Sully is an asshole on this subject, isn't he?" so I don't know how much it helps. I think Sullivan is, in a lot of ways, like Christopher Hitchens--an adequate mind, facility with words, and cringeworthy when I find myself on the same side of an issue with him because I know he's going to make me look like an ass in some way or another.
Ascribing Black attitudes toward homosexuals as "homophobia" is a bit of an overreach to theeextenbt "phobia" connotes "fear." The attitudes towards gays in the Black community is not like "fag bashing" homophobia in the White community, so I don't think that is a very accurate label
And another thing: has Sully ever BEEN to a Black church? I doubt it, because if he had, his gaydar would be lighting up like a Christmas tree. If you kicked all the gays out of the Black church, there would be no tenors in the choir, an even more sparse male population in the pews, and a few of the ministers would have to leave to "pursue other interests." The Black church is probably one of the most gay populated, but gay wary institutions this side of a men's prison. (Did I just sat that? Hmm . . . interesting . . . .) Black gay Christians "struggle" with their homosexuality in a way that White gays don't have to. Witness Donnie McClurkin and his "issues" with homosexuals . . . issues that, of course, don't keep them from "backsliding" in the life every once in a while.
No, the Black community is not so much "homophobic" as traditionalist. You won't see Black youths cruising streets with baseball bats looking for gays and you also won't see them placing same-sex wedding announcements in the paper. Sully doesn't not understand the Black community so he tries to fit it within his construct, to hos detriment.
I am really struggling here to say something that is not an angry rant, because this really, really makes me angry. Sullivan's comments are not winning any supporters, and they pissing people like me (straight, black, sporadic churchgoer and strong supporter of gay rights) off. I agree with most of the commenters, but would like to raise a few things to think about:
1. Outreach is important. When you learn that gay people are not some weird version of "the other, " but the nice couple/family/whatever next door that shovels your driveway, it becomes harder to discriminate. The No on 8 folks ran a shitty campaign and wrote off the entire black community.
2. Sullivan would do well to remember that being gay does not lessen your white privilege. The element of condescension in his words is not helpful, to say the least.
3. Going back to an earlier post he wrote, he ought to be ashamed of himself for trying to define HIV/AIDS as a gay disease. Especially as a resident of DC (I am too), HIV/AIDS is a public heath problem, not a gay problem, and to call it anything else is to make it easier to marginalize, which puts us all at a greater risk.
I think you make a great point when you call out the prominence of the evangelical protestant church in the black community as one reason that on many social issues, blacks may be more conservative than whites.
However, in the case of bigoted attitudes towards LGBT people, I don't think the church is all or even most of the problem. I would point to several other, probably just as important factors that add to the generalized homophobia and social conservatism of the black community:
First, Black manhood. Throughout our country's history, Black men have been characterized as violent, out of control and criminal. They have been constantly emasculated and relegated to juvenile status. What is a natural response to this assault on their manhood? Machismo. What is the natural enemy of Machismo? Effeminate men - i.e. homosexual men.
Second, the gay-hate in today's rap music. We may joke about it in the gay community, but in a large swath of the hip hop community the first and worst insult is "fag". This isn't true of all hip hop, obviously - but it is prevalent if not pervasive.
Frankly, I disagree with people who characterize the Black community as gay-hating; most of the out homos in my high school were black, because their community had a definite place for them - i.e. in a survey they may not agree with the "gay lifestyle" but they are true Christians.
To reference another discussion on this subject that has come up on your blog, I also strongly disagree with the characterization of the gay community as affluent. A much higher percentage of abandoned street teens and at-risk impoverished adults are gay and/or transgender when compared with the population at large.
My anecdotal evidence from living in DC is that African Americans are extremely hostile to gays. Some of the shit I've seen is mind-blowing in its hatred and ignorance. Sure, White people can be equally nasty against gays, but it's not nearly as widespread and socially acceptable throughout the community as what I have seen in DC.
My point is not to single out African Americans here and say they're any worse than anyone else (we're all at least a little bit racist), but rather to voice my frustration to see so many African Americans use the same shitty rationalizations to justify their prejudices.
It's wrong no matter who does it!
Although let's be fair, if you were to tell me taht 70% of white people in Missouri were opposed to gay marriage, we'd all agree that white people in Missouri are pretty homophobic. That doesn't mean that we're not aware that there are factors which are causing white people in Missouri to be homophobic.
I don't think anyone is claiming that there is something inherent in black people that makes them oppose gay marriage.(at least I hope not)I think we're all aware that there are external forces which causes those poll numbers to look the way they do. I just baffles me that Sullivan doesn't realize that he looks intentionally antagonistic.
Sara,
In addition, the gay community as whole needs to examine how well it supports, engages, and utilizes gay men and women in the Black community itself. Contrary to the popular belief of both many Blacks and many Whites, there at least a few African-Americans who also belong to the LGBT community, many of whom belong to those very churches in the Black community that preach so vehemently against gay marriage. (Just ask the choir directors in those churches.) Yet the public face presented by gay activists promoting marriage equality tends to be white only.
This is an egregious tactical mistake, since gay African-Americans are the key to combating the forces of homophobia in the Afrian-American community. After all, in the long run the best way to combat homophobic attitudes in any racial/ethnic community is for the people in that community to realize that when they support policies that deny rights to homosexuals, they are denying rights to friends and family members who are gay.
Speaking from experience, Black people I know don't have anything against Gays. Gays are a large portion of big churches. They see homosexuality as just another sin, like lying or stealing. The bit alt comes with the unrepentance of those who want it as their legitimate lifestyle. That's where the two heads butt. Christians don't accept unrepentant sinners. That's the mindset. Many Black Gays struggle with being a double minority. Some attempt to change. Some are successful with minor backsliding. Some accept that it's just the way they are. I'm ranting, but my point is, Sullivan obviously understands nothing of Black social issues. He picks and chooses percentages that fall in line with his Racial- Psuedo-scientific Agenda.
Queixada and the Real JR (hilarious name) both said that: "*Basically, Sullivan just said, 'A pox on the niggers for not agreeing with Homosexuality. Enjoy your Aids.'"
I try my best not to make qualitative statements about other people's opinions but this is absurd on many levels. First, its unfair to twist the man's words and intent without any basis. He's not one to shy away from argument so I tend to take his positions at face value. Second, and most obviously, Sullivan has HIV so I don't think he wishes it on anybody else. And third, Sullivan's statement about the correlation between high HIV rates and homophobia (or I think he might say a causal relationship rather than correlation) is a restatement of his oft-repeated argument that homophobia leads to closet-homosexuality, which of its nature promotes risky sexual behavior and higher rates of HIV infection. I
But really, aside from all this, do you both really think Sullivan wants black people to get AIDS? This is bizarre thinking and really unfair to the man.
I'm not a huge fan of Sully, but I have to agree with the sentiment of laborlibert's post.
I think Sullivan (regarding the HIV remark) was simply trying to say that prejudice often causes just as much harm to the aggressor, as to the victims. It's a variant on T-NC's assertion that disrespect towards one man, often speaks volumes about the attacker.
For the last time white people, we are not monolithic!(Don't all look, dress, talk, think alike) "Black" people are not homophobic, any more than whites, latinos, jews, or asians. I believe a more exacting interpretation of the polling data is that for those individuals who responded, strict biblical interpretation dictates their moral code. What is key, however is how this moral code is manifest in political views toward social policy. This is where we are more liberal. Though some of us may be more conservative in attitude, our behavior not more oppressive than any other group. In fact a heightened religiosity allows for greater compassion. AMs have never been slaves to religion, but rather freed by it. Many in our community do embrace our gay friends and loved ones, as in the true spirit of the gospel.
I fail to see an illustration of any high degree of emotional or intellectual intelligence on the parts of Savage, or Sullivan. Learn to be discerning when interpreting statistical data. Funny how we are all reduced to niggers when we don't follow your agenda. Prop 8 failed because of the lack of outreach in minority communities. Either we are invisible, or suspected of stealing. Post racial society, where???
Well put Quiexda. I'd say that Sully was just being an idiot if it weren't for the fact that this whole blame the blacks sentiment wasn't so widespread.
I generally agree with their end goal, but comments and attittudes like what Sully and people like him keep spewing make me a lot less inclined to want to do any speaking on their behalf.
Laborlibert,
This isn't the first time Sullivan has said something outrageous when he's in his feelings.
Hammurabi's code. Eye for Eye. Tooth for Tooth.
Love for ironic fate-type retribution is built into our brains. That's why southern white people fear black people rising up because Obama's Prez. That's why families who are victim to a murderer usually want that guy to get the death penalty. That's why their's no honor among thieves.
You put too much faith in the man. I'm not saying that he wishes all Blacks had AIDS. I'm saying his statement obviously proves that he is less sympathetic to Black people with AIDS now because his "data" has led him to believe that it is due to their own bigotry. Something like karma, aka ironic-fate-type-retribution.
Stacy
To echo Incertus, no black person who reads that particular post from Sullivan will come away thinking, "Damm I should have voted for the geis" And what I have yet to see a post on this thread start off with "You know Sullivan makes a good point". If what he wants is people to be talking about it and calling him an azzhole then he is succeeding. If he wants people to reexamine their beliefs and why they voted for prop 8 he is a FAIL. Now I have made this argument several times since election day. If the No on 8 folks and all of their supporters want to simply to rely on courts to keep overturning these kinds of initiatives thats fine. But that means that they will have to live their lives dreading the day when yet another ballot initiative banning gay marriage comes up again.(you do realize this wasn't the first time right?) Its much smarter to actually try to get people to change their minds about the issue so even if it ever comes up again you can rest easy knowing there is no way it would pass. With the civil rights movement we were able to show enough "regular white people" that there was nothing to inherently fear about black folks. That was the power of the non violent movement led by Martin Luther King Jr and others. So many white people had been raised to believe we were animals and savages that when black folks were beaten, had fire hoses used on them and had dogs sicked on them all by the police and nobody fought back, that changed their mindset. They started to see black folks as people and not as some kind of animals and THATS what pushed the civil rights agenda ahead because if those mindsets hadn't been changed then the Civil Rights Act could have been over turned as soon as President Johnson left office just the same way prop 8 took away right for gays to marry just months after they were granted the right in the first place.
Thats just my thoughts on it.
@eltoro: I agree 100%. I think a lot of black gays, Clay Cane comes to mind immediately, in the past have complained about how the marriage debate is framed as a white issue that excludes minorities in its advertising, outreach, and campaigning.
This reminds me of the feminist movement in a way. Within the movement theres this chasm between its white and black constituents that no one is interested in trying to close.
More needs to be said about engaging black homosexuals in the campaign for marriage equality. So far, it hasn't happened.
Oh Christ, nobody (in this forum at least) is calling anybody a "nigger."
Some of us are simply (and, btw, not all of us doing the commenting are white, that just shows your prejudice in assuming we are) pointing out that the African American community is no different from any other group of people in that it also has its own forms of prejudice and hatred.
"Prop 8 failed because of the lack of outreach in minority communities."
"Sullivan and his ilk keep yammering on about doing outreach to the blacks which smacks of doing missionary work with the natives."
I'd just like to point out that these two statements were in the same thread. I know everyone is not in agreement on what an appropriate level of outreach is, but this makes it seem like the gay community can't win.
Lol. @ Post-racial society.
Is that a meme yet.?
Green, we'll do it anyway. We'd all be Republicans if they weren't so Evil.
A majority of Black people are the Real Christians that Christianists, Evangelicals, and Conservatives claime to be. They have hijacked religion and used it dry for their cause. Not that the blame is solely on them, but partly because of that, Liberals forgot that our religion is truly one of love and brotherhood, with a command for respect and humility. Everyone from Ax Murderer to Scientologist is welcome as long as there's repentance. But Anti-religionists seem to always forget that last clause..
sgwhiteinfla,
No arguements here on your last post. Well put.
By the way, I know the sg doesn't stand for Sergeant, but I really want to call you Sarge, or sir every time I address you now...
I'd like to take a moment to point out the giant irony/hypocrisy in Melornee's post:
"For the last time white people, we are not monolithic!(Don't all look, dress, talk, think alike) "Black" people are not homophobic"
So blacks aren't monolithic, yet you feel free to address white people as a giant collective? Intriguing. I agree with your sentiment, but perhaps a little quid pro quo?
I'm also in agreement with Libert. For anyone to think that a man infected with HIV would deliberately wish it on anyone else is well about as crazy as a kid in an x wing blowing up the death star.Perhaps as Queixada said he is referring to it as a Karmic/ironic situation but a pox on all black people is too much...although I enjoy the allusion.
"We'd all be Republicans if they weren't so Evil."
Yikes.
"A majority of Black people are the Real Christians that Christianists, Evangelicals, and Conservatives claime to be."
Double yikes. Talk about some crazy generalizations. That makes black people seem as though they are monolithic. I don't get down with that.
@Stacy:
I said "Sullivan and his ilk keep yammering on about doing outreach to the blacks which smacks of doing missionary work with the natives."
I'm not arguing against outreach. Far from it. My point that Sullivan's language is offensive in that at least once a week it seems he makes his "black=homophobic/ignorant" generalization while also making his "we must reach out" arguement at the same time. He's talking out of both sides of his mouth. Do you want to cast stones or do you want to band together? You can't do both. Until the white gay establishment chooses we will keep having this debate.
The importance of the Black Church in the Black Community cannot be ignored nor disrespected. The Black Church, is the ONLY institution in the history of the United States, that from its conception:
protected, incubated, supported
BLACK HUMANITY.
There is not one other institution in the history of this country that has done that.
When the official position of this country was that Black folks were 3/5ths, there were church meetings amongst the slaves, telling them something different.
When Jim Crow ruled this land with an iron fist, there was the Black Church, telling people that there was another way.
When you had folks toiling in the fields, working in White folks houses, being demeaned everyday from sunup to sundown, on Sunday, there was a community that told you - you were worth something.
Good luck trying to insult the Black Church and thinking that's the way to bridge the gap.
Gay marriage is seen as a RELIGIOUS issue with Black folk. Not one of Civil Rights.
Keep on thinking that attacking Religious folks is the way to go.
Sara,
I'm with you. And I completely agree that Sullivan completely sounds like an asshole in nearly every post that has the words 'black' and 'prop 8.' He's obviously let it become to personal and can't seperate his emotions. I think progress is already being made. I couldn't imagine Prop 8 passing again in two years. Could be wrong...
"For the last time white people, we are not monolithic!"
The monolithic, white hive-mind concedes your point.
I agree with several other comments. This is just not the way to go about getting support on this issue. If Sullivan and these guys continue down this road then their support in the community will only drop as more and more straight people like me are getting sick of being insulted.
FRIFL,
I can disagree with you without hating you.
That is a main problem with the Gay Agenda. Many fix their mouths to tell us that through an over simplification of our religion (aka Christianity means everyone who doesn't follow DA RULES burns for eternity) that were wrong living how we want to live, while at the same time unzipping the other side of their mouths to whine that were oppressing them by not letting them live as they please. Sick. I don't hate anyone.
Blacks aren't monolithic, but many have gained the ability to completely ignore a person's secret life. But if that person's secret life affects the other's in a significantly negative way, they will be repudiated. Then were friends again. A version of DADT of sorts. Ironic
And here's another hint.
I would have NEVER voter for Prop 8.
But, I'm not gonna let folks insult the Black religious goers in the community. They are the backbone of what has sustained us. I'm not even thinking about, what, ' throwing those folks away'?
Black folks don't throw away Black folks - sometimes to our detriment.
How else do you explain folks still holding out hope for Uncle Clarence?
"If Sullivan and these guys continue down this road then their support in the community will only drop as more and more straight people like me are getting sick of being insulted."
So you are going to quit supporting gay marriage because a gay blogger for the Atlantic is being an asshole? Interesting.
The bottomline here is that Sullivan over-generalizing and over-simplifying. He is showing a seriously lack of knowledge of the black community as whole and the diverse body it is. He's simply chose to use the Dan Savage party line "Black people are homophobic, they need to get over it" and has ran with it.
There were NO posts on his blog, that I remember seeing, about the CBC's support of gay marriage (thanks TNC for the excellent video about that) and not enough lip service to the fact that the "face" of the gay activist community has too often been painted as "white." The protests at the LDS church here in Manhattan were decidingly mixed and there are many black LGBT activist out there. As long as they continue to paint the movement that way, all those black homophobes he rants against will always SEE the movement that way: white and male.
"Gay marriage is seen as a RELIGIOUS issue with Black folk. Not one of Civil Rights. " - rikyrah
Why is a black couple's heterosexual marriage in a black church more valid than my homosexual marriage in an MCC church?
If this is a religious issue, as you claim, then you must be fully in support of legitimatizing all the marriages of recognized mainstream religions in this country.
Well, I'm glad we've all come up with a solution.
What I find funny about this conversation is that we wouldn't be having it if the majority of blacks were Republican...reflect on that.
Sullivan, like many others in my community (GLBTs) don't want to talk about where the homophobia comes from, they just want to harp on the fact that a group of people who vote democratic aren't progressive enough. Which leads me back to, what if the majority of black people (borg) were Republican?
Also, this is about Gay MARRIAGE.
look at any other issue with regards to Gays:
housing
work
the polls are clear: Black folk support, near 70% no discrimination in those areas. And it's been that way for years.
yet, when it comes to marriage, which is seen AS A RELIGIOUS ISSUE, the flip happens - high 60's - AGAINST. it's not seen as a Civil Rights issue.
Blacks being religious is not news. I think this will all be a lot easier if a distinction is made between God's law and human law. There's no point in trying to legally judge people. Why not make lying a sin? If you truly believe that homosexuality is a sin, then God is the judge, not man. Same for abortion.
Stacy,
It's not "a gay blogger at the atlantic", that's just the particular post were discussing right now. If he were some kind of an odd outlier no one would much care. The sentiment we're discussing keeps popping up. Not just on the mainstream blogs either. A local message board I read a had a long running "why should I give black civil rights" thread over the last month.
And really not just black people. If im steve young,what the great grandson of brigham young or something, do i put another sign on my lawn supporting a cause that has spent the last month trashing my religion? Maybe,but I wouldn't blame him at all if he didnt.
A good way to fight black homophobia...
...would be for President Obama to make another awesome speech about repealing DADT, then repeal DADT. The rest takes care of itself, and Obama reaps the hefty political reward before and after 2012.
Since everyone here is dumping on Sullivan I'll come out and say that I largely agree with his statements on black homophobia. Talk all you want about him going to far and pushing people away with his rhetoric, but disagreeing with his method and imputing racism (unfairly I think) looks to me like an attempt to dodge his substantive argument.
I'm quite sure Sullivan is not bothered by offending your delicate sensibilities (to quote the great Cy Tolliver), and neither am I. He thinks black homophobia is a problem. I agree, and I think some of you do too. That being the case, it is time for black folks to self-examine and change their opinion, or to "man the fuck up", as you say. The black community is not a monolith, as some of you have pointed out, but there is a black culture and black community that has cohesive or popular opinions on cultural/political issues (is there not?). Sullivan's declarations are a challenge to influential players in that community to engage in a meaningful dialogue on homosexual rights.
At least that's how I see it.
Green,
I feel you on that. It just seems like letting gay people's emotional response to Prop 8's passing dictate your opinion on the issue is nearly as bad as their emotional response.
Maybe that didn't make sense, but I think you got my point...
I'm straight and white, but I'm also opinionated so here goes...
"Doing outreach" should involve a whole lot more listening than talking. Listening means respect; it allows you to understand an unfamiliar perspective, or maybe to discover that the perspective isn't as unfamiliar as you imagined. And it establishes a basis for a real human relationship.
Liberals forgot that our religion is truly one of love and brotherhood, with a command for respect and humility. Everyone from Ax Murderer to Scientologist is welcome as long as there's repentance. But Anti-religionists seem to always forget that last clause..
Queixada, I want to make sure I understand what this means. Are you saying that homosexuals are welcome in the church (and society more broadly) as long as they admit that their sexuality is a sin and they repent? Because I don't think that explanation is going to go very far with the vast majority of LGBT folks. Nor is it likely to get someone like Sullivan to calm down and listen.
There are only two reasons to be opposed to gay marriage. And they are both shitty. Someone's religious beliefs does not excuse opposition to gay marriage in my book. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to change minds, but if the Bible is your reason, and you aren't changing your mind, I'm in no mood to listen.
There's just a different relationship to sexuality in MANY communities, black or otherwise. How people are raised - in terms of religion, culture, and tradition - informs their ideas about relationships, whether they be between lovers, friends, family members, or with a higher power. It surely isn't news that Black folks' relationships to family, marriage, and parenthood are particular to the experience of their community and affected by its history.
Every person's relationship to their sexuality is different and is private business until they decide to make it otherwise. Every community is going to have a different dialogue about this issue and it is unsurprising that supporters of Gay Marriage in these communities have different ideas about where to go from here. It's important now to allow each community the freedom to have their own discourse on it.
Homophobia is a tremendously overused term. Most black folk I know have a "funny uncle" or cousin or what have you. The Filipino side of my family is dotted with gay men and women who are out and accepted, albeit in the shadow of Catholic tradition. I wouldn't call the opposition to gay marriage in these quarters "homophobia". Half the kids on my block in Harlem appear to be bi-something or other, but they're listening to Wayne and Bus and others talk about beating down fags. It's just not quite as cut and dried as Sullivan (and many whites) would like it to be.
The Gay Church has had an important role for years in the struggle for Gay Rights and the war against HIV and AIDS. I grew up in San Francisco and its important to note that even in the 80s the Black churches of Bayview and Hunters Point often worked in tandem with the Gay churches in The Castro on outreach projects and community service. It wasn't always comfortable, but as the song goes... their eye is on the sparrow. Those of us who are training their guns on The Church in this fight are missing the forest for the trees.
And yes, I realize that may seem as stubborn as any bible thumper. I think I just dealt with my parents too much over Thanksgiving...
Green: If im steve young,what the great grandson of brigham young or something, do i put another sign on my lawn supporting a cause that has spent the last month trashing my religion?
Just so I have this clear: you do mean the LDS church here, right, not Christianity in general? Because if so, the LDS church just spent months smearing the issue of Prop 8 in a lot of incredibly hateful and, yes, homophobic, as well as completely dishonest ways. So I'm confused as to your argument here. Should the LGBT-and-allies community not stand up to the organization that is pushing the false information? Or just be nicer about it? Can you explain further what you mean?
@laborlibert:
I don't think anyone here is avoiding the reality that within the black community there is homophobia. The fact is, the idea that "teh blacks are homophobes" that Sullivan, and I guess you, are touting is a problem. You are painting in broad strokes. Generalization does nothing for you. Who would want to join a movement that they feel is hostile to them? Ask black gays why they are lukewarm at best to the marriage movement.
I don't think civil rights should be conditional (ie. you support me because I support you), but the reality is that Sullivan and Savage do the gay community no favors by alienating allies by casting stones. If you really want to make a movement the reconcile.
"Gay marriage is seen as a RELIGIOUS issue with Black folk. Not one of Civil Rights. '
Yeah, well slamming planes into buildings was a religious issue for some people. Cutting little girl's genitals is a religious issue for some people. Cutting little boy's genitals is a religious issue for some people. God damn your religion.
You can't possible believe that any amount of good a religious does excuses any of the evil it does. That is an absolutely amoral position.
God damn your religion. May God cast you into Hell for it.
"...and many whites"
STOP assuming that everyone here calling out parts of the African American community for their perceived homophobia (whether or not this argument actually has merit. The point of my post is not to debate this point)IS WHITE.
I am neither white, nor black and don't have a dog in this fight, but it does piss me off to see so many people automatically attribute dissent here to being a white thing.
I've been on the receiving end of prejudice and know how painful it is, but I also know that when you use this pain as an excuse to form your own prejudices, you're keeping the entire fucked-up circle going and you're just as guilty as any card-carrying white racist.
I'm quite sure Sullivan is not bothered by offending your delicate sensibilities (to quote the great Cy Tolliver), and neither am I. He thinks black homophobia is a problem. I agree, and I think some of you do too. That being the case, it is time for black folks to self-examine and change their opinion, or to "man the fuck up", as you say. The black community is not a monolith, as some of you have pointed out, but there is a black culture and black community that has cohesive or popular opinions on cultural/political issues (is there not?). Sullivan's declarations are a challenge to influential players in that community to engage in a meaningful dialogue on homosexual rights.
At least that's how I see it.
Posted by laborlibert
laborlibert I am not trying to pick on you because there are other posts I thought about responding to, but since yours was most recent and has elements in it that I want to respond to it was "good enough"
First as I said above, this isn't just some abstract national debate with no ramifications. Therefore it DOES matter about offending delicate sensibilities especially because a lot of them are not so delicate. It comes down to this, what is the result that the proponents of gay marriage want? If all they want is to get a judge to overturn the ban on gay marriage then good for them. But they should know and realize that no matter what a judge does, they will continue to face discrimination and probably another prop 8 in the future if they don't start changing people's attitudes about lgbt issues. Being antagonistic does not help further an agenda that would include getting gay marriage legalized for ever and always. Its really analagous to the roe v wade abortion issue. Yeah we have had a supreme court ruling on the issue for a few decades now legalizing abortion but there is ALWAYS new legislation coming up to ban abortion. Now whether you are pro choice or pro life on thing that should be acknowledged is that at no point has there been any substative outreach between pro choice people and pro life people to come to some kinds of common ground at least until very recently. And thats why abortion will always be a wedge issue. Is that what gay people really want? Or is it better to try to provide out reach and education to people who don't agree with their lifestyle as to why they still shouldn't be discriminated against? And trust me after someone points a finger at me and screams "you people are the most homophobic in all the land" nothing else will register at that point. I won't go as far as to say it will make me oppose prop 8 but I will say if I was already against it, that kinda talk might make me MORE against it.
Now maybe some people who aren't black don't realize the major role that the church has played in the lives of most black people. When we were slaves black people sang religious songs to get them through the day and also to send coded signals to other slaves to pass along information. After slavery when black folks didnt have many rights, the institution that kept black communities together was the church. The undisputed leaders in the black communities during those times were the preachers. And it was preachers who led us in the civl rights movement and helped to even give us the right to vote. And historically the church has taught that homosexuality wasn't just bad, but an abomination. I am not a bible scholar but I remember vividly the sermons I heard growing up about Soddom and Gommorah. Not just because of the subject matter but also because of how many times the preacher chose to preach on that passage. So for black folks who grew up in the church and are still deeply involved in their church for many of them opposing gay marriage is on the same level as opposing murder because they were almost weighted the same way in the church. Now for those people you are not going to just say to them that "hey this is wrong and we think its like the civil rights movement so you should oppose it" and have them go out and oppose prop 8. The same way black folks had to subject themselves to beatings and fire hoses and humiliation and not fight back to change minds of many of the white people who grew up in racist households and thought black people were animals, gay people are going to have to suck it up and in your words "man up" by biting their damm tongue and quit the divisive rhetoric and instead show those people who grew up in homophobic churches that gay people are humans too and that banning gay marriage is no different than banning interracial marriage. Anything other than that in my opinon is in a compound word, counterproductive
"Gay marriage is seen as a RELIGIOUS issue with Black folk. Not one of Civil Rights. '
Quiexada,
One can be opposed to gay marriage for religious reasons, but still support gay CIVIL marriage. You can oppose gay marriage in your personal life and prevent your church from performing gay marriages, but still allow others who don't share your religious beliefs the option of marrying their gay partners in a civil ceremony.
Let me also add that I just love watching everyone trying to rationalize and explain-away this prejudice against gays. Hmmm...where have I heard this type of thing before?
Today the comments section of Ta-Neshisi's blog officially murdered irony.
@ Kalbi:
I'm not trying to be prejudicial, and I wasn't really even referring to other posters in this thread, just to my personal experience. Maybe the lopsided criticism of the black yes-on-8 vote that I've heard from the white gay community is purely anecdotal. I am white and straight, fwiw. I apologize if I've lumped anyone together unnecessarily. I'm sure that the sensitive whites who have been hurt by my generalization can accept my clarification and move on.
KT,
Yeah I was talking about the LDS church specifically. The fact that the LDS church largely backed the 'Yes on 8' movement too me says more about the complacency on the 'No' side than it does about the LDS church. I mean seriously,I'll bet most people can count on one hand the number of Mormans they've met in their entire life, and the fact that a cause financed by that relatively small group was even in the ballpark fundraising wise says to me that the 'No' side simply didnt even take care of the basics in terms of winning this fight.
But sure blame the Mormans. Blame the blacks. That's easy. But it's not going to win you any votes.
And really are people surprised that the Morman church came up on the No side? What denomination of Christian church is on the Yes side? Didnt the Pope just go to the UN to lobby against making crimes against homosexuals illegal? When are the protests of the Catholic church scheduled for? But thats a much more formidable foe isnt it? The whole thing to me, seems kind of like pick a weak target and blame them instead of looking at ourselves to figure out why we didnt win and how we can win the next time.
Listen,as I said earlier, I agree with the end goal here. Protests,demonstrations, outreach all those things are necessary. But I just dont think that demonizing an entire religion/race,calling them hateful, bigoted, cultists, suggesting that they somehow maybe deserve an epidemic of a horrrible, deadly disease, because they dont share your position when it's pretty clear you havent even half done the work you need to do in terms of making the case that they should think otherwise is weak, and self defeating.
Like most non-social conservatives, I stand for civil unions. Like most Americans I oppose changing the defintion of marriage. Like most moral and thoughtful people I appreciate the efforts of homosexuals to fight for dignity and respect, and like the overwhelming majority of Americans I am opposed to second-class citizenship for anyone.
Unlike most liberal activists, I recognize that civil rights is a reality for all individuals and making specious moral charges at people with differing political opinions is not productive. Further, unlike multicultural activists, I'm not impressed with the umpteen trumped up identities of the victim du jour and won't waste people's time explaining all of their orientations and expecting them to have moral weight.
Love is it's own reward. Go home and screw.
If the majority of black dems think having children out of wedlock is unacceptable, then they've got some work to do in their own communities. Clearly, just going to church ain't solving the problem.
What doesn't get discussed enough,to my mind, is how fucking nuts it is that civil rights issues can be decided by a voter refurrendum. Can you imagine a circumstance in this day and age where anyone else's right to marry was put to a vote? My personal feeling, with apologies to TNC, is fuck a homophobe. Why should anyone have to waste time to "reach out" to bigots?
I stand for civil unions. Like most Americans I oppose changing the defintion of marriage.
Care to share why? I've yet to hear an argument for opposing gay marriage outside of...
A. Bible
B. Gross
...that makes any sense. Not one.
Sorry. That first sentence was supposed to be in quotes.
"Gay marriage is seen as a RELIGIOUS issue with Black folk. Not one of Civil Rights."
Some people have a very limited understanding of what civil rights encompassed.
Some people thing the most important civil rights are the right to equality.
Some people don't understand that you can have equality without liberty.
Some people don't understand that it is liberty, no equality that gives those with full citizenship the (civil) right to speak out against inequality.
Coates draws the important distinction between being correct in the absolute sense (Sullivan is factually correct in his assertion) and being correct in the pragmatic sense.
Sullivan's lament would be much more effective if human beings were purely rational creatures, but we're not. You have to coerce and persuade people to take up your cause, not bludgeon them. For a guy so well read, it amazes me that Sullivan doesn't know his Peirce.
Said it before and will say it again: the most homophobic group in America is white conservative males. Period. Sullivan need to keep his own house clean before he goes demanding that others do so.
"yet, when it comes to marriage, which is seen AS A RELIGIOUS ISSUE, the flip happens - high 60's - AGAINST. it's not seen as a Civil Rights issue."
And why, exactly, should we excuse irrational opinions that have an actual, measurable impact on public policy just because they're influenced by religious faith?
Pro-slavery people quoted their bibles just as vociferously and self-righteously as did the abolitionists -- it didn't make them any less wrong. And it didn't (and still doesn't) make slavery a "religious" issue. It is a civil rights issue -- more explicitly: an issue of how the Government treats its own citizens -- and it doesn't matter one damn bit that slavery has existed since the very beginnings of human civilization and has been supported and sanctioned by every major (and most minor) religious tradition ever conceived by human brains.
I belong to what, in poll after poll, ranks as the most disliked and distrusted of all American minorities: Atheists. I don't believe in God, nor do I accept the authority of religion. I don't believe in the "sanctity of marriage" because the notion of "sanctity" has no meaning for me.
And, yet -- as my long-time girlfriend keeps reminding me -- I'm allowed to get married. If it's true that marriage is a religious issue, then why is there no public outcry to stop people like me from getting married? And why don't Evangelical Christians oppose the marriage rights of Catholics or Jews or Muslims or Hindus? If marriage is purely a religious issue, then any marriage that takes place outside of one's own particular sect would have to be viewed as suspect if not completely invalid. That is, if we're being consistent. And logical.
Having said all that, I agree with TNC's point that nobody likes to be called a bigot and that writing someone off as such is more likely to signal the end of useful debate than the beginning. Sully does have a tendency to alienate those who should be his allies.
Green -
I've moved from the Midwest to the West Coast and back, and one thing I noticed when I lived in California was how many Mormons there actually are. Utah borders California, and the movement westward of Mormons was something I'd never contemplated before moving there. According to Wikipedia/Salt Lake Tribune, the population of Utah is 60.7% Mormon - meaning that over 1.25 million people in Utah alone are Mormon. The wikipedia entry for California says that the 2000 census counted 529,575 Mormons; in the entry for Illinois, in contrast, the LDS church isn't even mentioned. And interestingly, there's a Wikipedia entry called "Finances of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" that says: TIME magazine estimated in 1996 that the church's assets exceeded $30 billion. This figure represents only one side of the balance sheet and does not include current liabilities for maintenance, although the church incurs virtually no long-term liabilities. After the Time article was published, the church responded that the financial figures in the article were "grossly exaggerated." Three years later, annual revenues were estimated to be $5 billion, with total assets at $25 to $30 billion. Sorry for the tangent, but I thought it was interesting. My point: out West, Mormons aren't a "relatively small group."
That being said, I totally agree with you that it sounds like the No on Prop 8 campaign was run terribly. But acknowledging the amount of money (not to mention the strategizing) poured into the Yes on Prop 8 campaign by the LDS as an organization (not, obviously, all individuals who are LDS) is an integral part of winning votes in the long run; if the pro-gay-marriage community doesn't learn why they lost this time around, how could they be expected to do better next time? I don't see how honestly assessing what happened is the same as "demonizing an entire religion/race,calling them hateful, bigoted, cultists", unless at that point you'd stopped responding to my question and were talking about something said by someone else.
Boy, we have really reached hysteria.
Joel hits the nail on the head in his comments. If Sullivan is trying to rally the base, this tactic might work. If he hopes to move a sadly-large proportion of black folks past their -- is homophobia (fear of homosexuals) really the right word? -- this spewing is not only blunt and without nuance, it's counterproductive. Period. Doesn't matter to me one way or the other -- I support gay marriage (as does, officially, my black church) and I stopped reading Sullivan, because he pissed me off.
But the commenter who made the point about not putting civil rights up for vote in the first place is on target. Black folks did not achieve the civil rights we have because white America changed its collective Borg mind about us. Law first, attitudes follow. Sullivan should focus his efforts there.
Late Comer, not sure if anyone brought this up but upon reading that original link I sent this email to sullivan:
While I understand that you are annoyed with a percieved hipocricy in black americans who voted for proposition 8, I think some perspective is due. The correlation linking a higher incidence of HIV transmission to some difference in sexual behavior as implied by this statement "And does anyone believe that it is a coincidence that the most homophobic racial group in America also has the highest rate of HIV transmission?" is not supported by the facts:
African Americans and Africans have a hereditary expression of the Duffy Antigen protein (at a rate of 68% and 90% respectively) due most likely to an adaptation providing protection against malaria. The presence of the Duffy Antigen comes paired with a Duffy Antigen Receptor for Chemokines (DARC) which has the side effect of making its host (African Americans in this case) 40% more susceptible to HIV infection than the population at large. Compounding this fact, due to an adaptation (most likely to smallpox or the Black Plague) Europeans are more resistant to HIV infection and in 10% of cases immune.
Evidence can be found here:
http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11745521
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18621010
I'll skip the lecture on the devastation that the HIV epidemic has wrought on those of African descent worldwide and how dangerous it is for one to simply dismiss it as a product of some moral failing... for now.
KT
Im not saying that I disagree with "honestly assessing what happened."
But I simply don't think that the attitude of don't agree with me=bigot is honest. You did not say that, but that is the sentiment that I'm addressing.
The Morman church invested ~ $20 million to the Yes cause. Do you think that given the atmosphere out there now that a No effort wouldn't easily eclipse that number? That's my point. The biggest reason, from my perspective, as to why the prop passed is that the work that needed to be done either wasn't or was done poorly.
Similarly,I think that in many cases "dont agree me" is indicative of something more akin to "I haven't heard a convincing argument as to why I should agree with you." This fight will be won, people will change their minds and attitudes, but if the message that those people who did vote Yes,not just in Cali but all across the country, keep hearing is you people are ignorant hateful bigots,the fight will be much longer than it has to be.
That said, I don't have a problem with taking the Morman church to task for being on the wrong side of the issue. Actions do have consequences and it's important that people recognize that their $100 donation didn't just evaporate into the ether of the internet but that it actively helped to hurt another human being. So yes I agree with taking the LDS church to task, with boycotting individuals who donated, with protests, all those things. But at the end of the day No on prop 8 is about love, a hunger that all people need to fulfill and that is the face that needs to be presented here. The protests etc. should find their foundation in a love for all people, even those they disagree with. And applying blanket ugly labels to groups of people like hatemongers, bigots ect., i think totally misses that point.
So you are going to quit supporting gay marriage because a gay blogger for the Atlantic is being an asshole? Interesting.
If you are trying to sell anything, a car, an idea, a candidacy, it is best to not act like an asshole in the process. Certainly there are some people who like abuse and ridicule, but most want to be respected. People make up there minds and change them on the smallest things.
Just two quick corrections:
I won't go as far as to say it will make me oppose prop 8 but I will say if I was already against it, that kinda talk might make me MORE against it.
I think you've got prop 8 backwards. Remember, a yes vote was for banning gay marriage. A no vote was a vote for the status quo, which was legal gay marriage.
Utah borders California
Actually, it doesn't. Nevada is between the two of us. But the point remains that there are a good number of Mormons in California, a lot more than in the eastern U.S.
Adam Villani - Yeah, I totally missed on the geography there (especially embarrassing since, lived there, and all!). I meant to go back and change that to "is west of" but, snap, here we are. Thanks for pointing it out.
"If you are trying to sell anything, a car, an idea, a candidacy, it is best to not act like an asshole in the process. Certainly there are some people who like abuse and ridicule, but most want to be respected. People make up there minds and change them on the smallest things."
DougEMI, I typically always agree with you on here, but this is wrong. The gentleman above was stating that he already supported gay marriage, but was on the verge of changing his mind because of people like Sullivan and Savage. That's just as dumb as Sullivan's reaction. C'mon. No one is arguing that you catch more bees with vinegar than honey.
Oh, by the way Stacy, I agree with you from above that a person shouldn't change their position based Sully's idiocy.
I guess I was more saying that there's, for example, vote for it support, sign in my front yard support, and even grab a sign and go stand with you at city hall support. What level of support one is willing to give I think is impacted by how your relationship is with the affected community.
Stacy, my apologies, I misinterpreted what you were trying to say.
Well, fellas, I'm glad we got this issue all figured out!
Green,
No, I definitely feel you on that.
Deleted.
People like Sully who want to talk about the black community's homophobia have every right to. As a black person and a person who would have voted against Prop 8 if I were from Cali, though, I just wonder what I'm supposed to do with that pronouncement. How am I supposed to react? What would people like Andrew Sullivan and his supporters on this board like me to do? Just acknowledge that black people can be homophobes? Okay, done. Do you want me to feel really, really bad about it? Okay, I definitely do feel horrible about it. I've been feeling horrible about it since Nov. 4.
So NOW what?
This comment is for the "Understanding the ...." thread. I posted here because the comment is closed there. Sorry!
I understand that TNC was trying to analyze the commenter whose comment he highlighted through the prism of the bolded statement (through connection between dysfuntion is black families and opposition to gay marriage). However, I think it's also worth nothing that the same commenter also had a subsequent comment in that same thread:
"Let me start off by saying that I disagree with the homosexual lifestyle or acts. I think that within itself is unnatural. Regardless of whether people are born gay or grow into one, I feel that is no different from a mental illness or adopting immoral behavior habits. This is why I used the whoring comparison. My position on 8 is due to the fact that I do not want society to legitimize homosexuality as an alternative to heterosexuality. It has been slowly creeping this way for some time and I believe homosexual marriage is really the last barrier."
http://ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/12/everybody_wants_somebody.php#comments
I'm not saying that the point TNC was trying to analyze regarding the connection between dysfuntion in black families and opposition to gay marriage is invalid. It's just that in the case of this particular commenter, I doubt that his objection is rooted to that point. It seems to be coming from somewhere else.
And honestly, I don't really know how we can reach people who are opposed to gay marriage because they think homosexuality is immoral and unnatural. Sure, not calling them names and insulting them probably helps. But I doubt that any amount of outreach can change their minds. So I guess with some people, we just have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.
Peter,
I just kiss guys until they change their minds.
And I'm straight! Kind of!
"...between dysfuntion is black families and opposition to gay marriage"
This should read ".... between dysfuntion in black families and opposition to gay marriage"
And this is a comment for this thread. Sullivan has a tendency to accuse other people of being shrill when it comes to issues he doesn't really care about, but is nonetheless shrill himself when it comes to issues important to him. Of couse, most of us have this same tendency, but what irks me about Sullivan is he doesn't seem to recognize this about himself. Irony is dead to him.
".... I think it's also worth nothing ...."
should read
".... I think it's also worth NOTING ....."
Sorry. Man, what is wrong with me today?? Way to completely change the meaning of what I was trying to say.
Oh, great, I also misspelled "dysfunction" repeatedly. Even in the correction. I think I'll wait before posting a comment on the "Clinton people" thread. I'll probably misspell Hillary repeatedly due to my Clinton Derangement Syndrome.
Man, TNC is on a roll today. So many interesting topics on the same day.
Hmm...let's see. I'm black, I support gay marriage and that's that. I don't need to be told anything about blacks voting this way or that way. We are individuals. I can talk to those in my family, but that's all I can do. This issue is for the supreme court. The civil rights act was not decided by the public. Why are we even talking about this as if most Americans support gay marriage? They don't. Face reality. Have you been down South? You will get 65-70% support for gay marriage bans down there by whites and blacks! Get real! This is for the courts.
@Christina re: "so now what?" There are plenty of things that folk can do who are upset at the outcome of prop8 and other antigay initiatives.
I live in California. I'm white and not gay. I'm angry that CA voted yes on 8, and that the no campaign did a poor job of grassroots organizing. So I'm helping to coordinate better grassroots organizing for the Repeal 8 movement.
Sounds like you're also upset that states in this nation passed more homophobic legislation. What you can do in your personal life is to "simply" stand up against prejudice when you hear it and testify socially in favor of gay folk. Prejudice thrives on perceived social acceptance, and objection to prejudice has an impact. If you want to do more, you could look for activism in your own community. It can't just be a gay thing because they're a minority, gay folk need public allies.
There are plenty of things we can step up and do other than feel bad.
Adina -- thank you, and I do agree with you. I have to admit, and this is an imperfection on my part, that my desire to *step up* is a tiny bit blunted when I see *some* (certainly, it is not all) prominent gay people talking about the scourge of black homophobia.
My larger point wasn't what can I do in general (your suggestions are excellent) but that when some activists hammer the point about how homophobic black people are, what do they want me to do with that information? Who are they trying to convince? How shall I internalize this?
But if I were to stipulate that I agree entirely and black people are the most homophobic folks on the planet, then what? Where does that leave me, a non-homophobic black person? I feel as if I'm being told that I can't really be trusted no matter what I say or do; as a black person I might "revert" back to homophobia in a second.
I'm not expecting to be patted on the back for being a human. I guess I'd just appreciate a little nuance. I guess this a little how men might feel hearing that some feminist activists see them as "the enemy" simply because they are men.
I know that I'm struggling here, but I hope that you understand what I'm saying. It just so happens that there are far more gay people in my life than Dan Savage and Andrew Sullivan, and I would "step up" for those people in my life, regardless. But this mission that some have to convince black people of their homophobia is going to leave some other would-be advocates cold, I fear.
@christina I don't know if you'll see this cause this post is kinda old now.
But I think the way to combat gay folks bitterness is to stand up and help out. I think this prejudice can be fought like anti-gay prejudice but maybe easier.
The best antidote to anti-gay prejudice is for straight people to realize their family, friends and co-workers are gay and internalize that gay isn't a "think", it's humans they know and recognize.
The best antidote to anti-black prejudice among gay folk is probably to see black folk at rallies; black folk showing up at organizing meetings offering to give talks at events in the AA community, going around collecting repeal 8 petitions when we get there, etc. Yeah, the first few minutes would probably be hard cause there would be bitterness you didn't cause flowing in your direction. But there would be people saying "hush you fool she is *helping*". And then there would be other AA folk organizing too and it won't be strange and harsh anymore.
I'm co-organizing an event in SF in early January for folks using the 'net to help coordinate grass roots efforts for Prop 8 repeal. Do you know AA folk here who should come?