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The bogus "Clinton people" narrative

04 Dec 2008 11:00 am

I wrote some pretty harsh things about the Clintons during the primary, most of which I stand by. But, I always thought it was true that there is a particular sort of political animal, whose habitat spans the political range, that is just utterly infuriated by the Clintons, and wants them to fall of the face of the earth. One way people vent their prejudice is they find the most polarizing member of a group, and they hurl all the worse sort of venom at them. So things a white guy might never say about blacks, in the form of Barack Obama, they say about Pacman Jones. And things a man would never say about, say...damn my analogy broke down--men will say fucked-up shit about any woman, in my experience.

Anyway my point is that a particular brand of white male was utterly repelled by Hillary, and to an extenet Bill, in a manner which I never understood. I thought Ricky Ray Rector was slimy. I thought Sista Souljah was cowardly. I thought Hillary's inability to say "I was wrong" was an act of extraordinary political and moral weakness--the kind we'd just been treated to for eight years. That is possibly indefinsibly harsh. Maybe that would have been suicide for a woman. Maybe John Edwards had wiggle-room that she just didn't.

Meh I'm rambling again. My real point is that I don't get people who are utterly incensed by the fact that many of Obama's appointments have ties to the Clintons. By that line of thinking, we should have been pissed that Susan Rice was always on television during the campaign. Hendrik Hertzberg brings us some historical perspective:

What is a "Clinton person"? Apparently, it's any Democrat under about fifty or fifty-five years of age who has had work experience in the executive branch of the federal government.

The theory seems to be that a "Clinton person" would be inclined, at best, to reproduce the policies and actions of the Clinton Administration, including the accompanying mistakes, or, at worst, to serve the interests of "the Clintons" should they prove divergent from those of the Obama Administration and the nation.

This is the sort of reasoning that led to needless unhappiness the last two times Democrats were in power. Jimmy Carter's circle regarded Johnson, who mired the nation in Vietnam and then handed the White House to Nixon, as a failure. They weren't about to have any "Johnson people" in their White House. Clinton's circle regarded Carter, who allowed himself to be paralyzed by a few hundred Iranian "students" and then handed the White House to Reagan, as a failure. They weren't about to have any "Carter people" in their White House.

It didn't seem to occur to either crowd, Carter's or Clinton's, that old hands, far from being eager to repeat the errors of the Administrations of which they had been a part, would be especially keen to avoid them. Also, they would know in detail what those errors were.

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I guess there are people out there who thought change meant a complete break from the past. I don't know. But I've said before I voted for Obama because I thought he was the anti-Bush--he had a supple mind, a nuanced way of seeing the world, and a uncanny ability to communicate that to people. This idea that a foolish stubborness was somehow equal to strength, this penchant for confusing inflexibility with toughness was repellent to me. I get pissed thinking about it now. I always believed that a true confidence, allows for flexibility, it allows for one to fall back on common sense as opposed to personal prejudice, or anger.

I don't have a vendetta against "Clinton people." It strikes me that the "anti-Clinton people" theory is the exact sort of rigidity I wanted us to move away from. Like I said before, I just want shit to work again. I don't much care who you get to make that happen, as long as it happens. I don't so much worry about the fact that some of the folks who screwed-up in the past may be given second chances. I more worry about people who can't correct for that sort of thing, who have no interest in examining where they might have gone wrong. I just don't see an Obama administration doing that.

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Comments (47)

Like I said before, I just want shit to work again. I don't much care who you get to make that happen, as long as it happens.

Exactly. Competence is all I'm looking for here. And here's the thing about the Clinton administration--say what you will about the triangulating, the compromising, the fact is that those people were competent as hell. They got stuff done, and done well. I'd think that would be a plus for them, if what you're looking for is competence in an administration.

WTF Coates? The same type of white male you're referencing here is almost certainly not the same type of white male who is pissed Obama appointed Clinton (or Clinton supporters)to his cabinet.

Most of the white males pissed at Obama for doing this are Progressives, not the pissed off bunch of Conservative white guys who fueled Clinton hatred throughout the 90s.

Ironically, open the papers these days, and many of that "...brand of white male..." who so vociferously denounced the Clintons couldn't be happier she's now going to be SoS.

This is nothing more than your own latent prejudice showing. Just like the time you claimed that Hispanics are the most racist group in the US.

I like your blog, but you say some seriously dumb shit from time to time.

That said; I'll keep reading your blog, as each and every one of us is racist/prejudice in one way or another. I just you would do a little less patting yourself on the back for being so enlightened, while simultaneously writing some seriously stupid shit.

Coates

Wouldn't Hillary's inability to say she was wrong be analagous to the right wingers' complaint about Obama not admitting he was wrong about the Surge? Just asking

As for the Clinton hate, to me its election addiction if you ask me that is being egged on by some in the media. There are people who felt like they had to hate the Clintons to support Obama in the primary and they still carry that hate. Especially when CNN, FoxNews and MSNBC all have talking heads every day asking if Obama naming this new person who is tangentially connected to the Clintons "change". I think some women resent the fact that Hillary not only stayed with But also supported him AFTER the impeachment. There are also some "converts" this year who would normally be voting Republican but have been repelled by what Bush did, who to me are the ones leading this charge. They never liked the Clintons even when they were doing big things in office. But now they can come off as unbiased evaluaters simply because they endorsed Obama for president. By the way take note of something. Yes Chris Hitchens fits in that category. But your buddy Sully values Hitchens' word so much that yesterday he posted Hitchens' explanation for why Mumbai is called Mumbai without ever researching it for himself (turns out he was all the way WRONG)

The talking heads keep beating the drum about the Marc Rich pardon, but they hardly ever give any particulars of WHY the pardon is supposedly so problematic. And here is the kicker, they NEVER point out that Congress investigated the Marc Rich pardon and they couldn't find ANY wrong doing. And unlike Bush 43 Bill Clinton made his staff members available to testify in front of Congress about the pardon without invoking executive priviledge. Wait there is still a caveat left. The star witness in the investigation? Scooter Libby. Yeah the same Scooter Libby that helped to out Valerie Plame as Dick Cheney's chief of staff was the star witness for Bill Clinton because he had worked on Rich's legal team that tried to have his conviction overturned before they every asked for a pardon. And he said the pardon had merits on its face that wouldn't have needed any outside influence for a President to deem it a valid request. But you never hear about that do you? Nah there is just rampant speculation about how Eric Holder is toast because of the Rich Pardon.

The truth is drama sells and calm doesn't. What would the media be talking about right now if they didn't try to turn everybody against Obama's cabinet picks? I go back to Campbell Brown and her faux outrage two nights in a row over some bullsh!t. Even though we have the Mumbai attacks, suicide bombings still going on in Iraq, the auto industry about to fail, and more layoffs and home foreclosures coming up, to the MSM folks its a slow news day.

Many people are just utterly repulsed by the "anything goes" rule during elections, and how were just supposed to forget that Hillary and Bill were racist assholes for two years.

John McCain ran her exact same campaign, but we were harder on him because he was Old and Republican. We should have took it harder on Hillary because she's supposed to be Dem, or progressive.. or some shit. The only reason I don't bellyache about her being SOS is because Obama made that decision. I'm allowing him leeway at least until he's actually Prez.

Placing the onus of "Clintonism" on their former employees and cabinet members is like blaming the guy in charge of the headlights on a car assembly line for the incompetence and corruption of the industry.

It has become increasingly clear during this crisis that the knee-jerk reaction of most people is to blame not the boss, but the poor underling for everything that goes wrong. Until those who make the decisions have responsibility for the consequences, we will continue to have ridiculous governments like Bush II's and ridiculous industries like the American automobile makers.

FIFRL:

"WTF Coates? The same type of white male you're referencing here is almost certainly not the same type of white male who is pissed Obama appointed Clinton (or Clinton supporters)to his cabinet.

Most of the white males pissed at Obama for doing this are Progressives, not the pissed off bunch of Conservative white guys who fueled Clinton hatred throughout the 90s."

What the post actually says:

"I wrote some pretty harsh things about the Clintons during the primary, most of which I stand by. But, I always thought it was true that there is a particular sort of political animal, whose habitat spans the political range, that is just utterly infuriated by the Clintons, and wants them to fall of the face of the earth. One way people vent their prejudice is they find the most polarizing member of a group, and they hurl all the worse sort of venom at them. So things a white guy might never say about blacks, in the form of Barack Obama, they say about Pacman Jones. And things a man would never say about, say...damn my analogy broke down--men will say fucked-up shit about any woman, in my experience.

Anyway my point is that a particular brand of white male was utterly repelled by Hillary, and to an extent Bill, in a manner which I never understood."


FIFRL:

"This is nothing more than your own latent prejudice showing. Just like the time you claimed that Hispanics are the most racist group in the US."

I assume you mean this:

"There's considerable data that a large swath of Latino America is more racist than white America."

http://ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/11/gay_marriage_and_coalition_politics.php

That's the link and the direct quote.

We can argue all day. But let's argue about what I actually said--not what you wish I said. Strawmen are for the weak.

My previous point aside, is anyone else rather pleased that the cabinet perhaps resembles what America looks like instead of looking like Augusta National?

Sorry Frifl, but this post (though it was, as it author noted, rambling) does not argue that the "same" white guys who hated Bill policy's in the 90's hated Hillary as SoS. He said a) he didn't understand the particular white male hatred directed at Hillary and Bill in the 90's (perfectly reasonable), and b) he couldn't understand the "people who are incensed" are her SoS pick. Those groups do not coincide ideologically. This is not simply "dumb shit." Just a little too open your kind of misreading.

Wow Coates, you've since edited that quote because that is certainly NOT what you originally wrote!

I'm not using a strawman either as I specifically referred to you. I'll grant that there is great room for debate as to whether or not my original argument has merit, but to dismiss me based on reasons that are simply not true (i.e. strawmen) is intellectually dishonest as hell.

The quote about Hispanics that is. I remember it quite well and it certainly has been edited.

Exactly. Competence is all I'm looking for here.

Maybe, Brian. I understand your point about experience, but are you saying that there are no competent progressives qualified for those positions.

Is Obama nominating Clinton neoliberalist policy or is he calling more progressive policy on the experienced? The former has been much more prevalent.

I'm particularly bothered by the pragmatist vs. idealism argument. As if progressives are a bunch of hippies with ideas that would be great in a perfect world, but we have to be practical.

If there ever was a time where progressive ideas make sense, it's now. But in the end, I suspect it's campaign to the masses, govern to the moneyed with the consolation that Obama isn't the maniacal neoconservatives we've been ruled by.

I guess i don't agree with the washington saying that "personell is politics"...or is it a republican saying? I dont know...if that was true...would Lyndon Johnson pushed through the voting rights act?? I think progressives are to reactionairy in the sense that, they think that change will be immediate and unapologeticly profound from the start. Not realizing that it may take a LBJ to push shit through from time to time...I think Hillbilly can and has the potential of being a great SoS, much because of (as in the case of LBJ) political expediance demands it. It's not an option for her to question him outright and in such a manner that it's going to be obvious...she's certainly going to argue her case and be assertive. But the Clintons are politically savy enough to understand that, going against a very popular prez in a time of crisis, is and would be political suicide. So the hooting and hollering of progressives is not actually helping.

and btw...chris hitchens is and will be, until proven otherwise...a douche and a hack....he thrives on conflict and can't admit fault even if his life depended upon it! much like Hillbilly

FRIFL:

"You've since edited that quote because that is certainly NOT what you originally wrote!"

FRIFL. You're lying. I virtually never say that. But here's the thing, I know you're lying because in comments Morzer quotes the sentence(http://ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/11/gay_marriage_and_coalition_politics.php#comment-1173044).

Are you accusing me of doctoring comments too? Seriously?

Look,

unless Obama wanted to stock his government with people with NO federal experience, he had to choose Clinton folks.

Clinton thought he could do it with the gang from Arkansas, and got his ass handed to him.

Obama learns from others' mistakes.

I still believe Clinton as SOS IS a mistake though.

Maybe, Brian. I understand your point about experience, but are you saying that there are no competent progressives qualified for those positions.

I'm not saying that at all, but then again, I never saw Obama as particularly progressive, so I didn't have any illusions to be shattered when he started picking centrist folks for his Cabinet either.

FIFRL says

WTF Coates? The same type of white male you're referencing here is almost certainly not the same type of white male who is pissed Obama appointed Clinton (or Clinton supporters)to his cabinet.

Based on what? Your understanding of all white males?

Most of the white males pissed at Obama for doing this are Progressives, not the pissed off bunch of Conservative white guys who fueled Clinton hatred throughout the 90s.

A couple of things. First progressives weren't huge fans of Clinton in the 90s because
1. Don't ask don't tell
2. Welfare to work
3. Misgynistic and womanizing ways
4. Never delivered universal healthcare
5. Hired Dick Morris enuff said

Secondly what progressives have you polled to judge who is outraged and who isn't? I would love to see where you got this information that progressives are outraged over Hillary as SOS. Now many including me were pissed about Lieberman. And many were pissed about Gates staying though I am not in that crowd. But you will find about the same amount of progressives mad about Hillary as SOS as you had PUMAs voting for John McCain a month ago.

Ironically, open the papers these days, and many of that "...brand of white male..." who so vociferously denounced the Clintons couldn't be happier she's now going to be SoS.

Right and why do you think that is? Maybe because they have something else to criticize later? Or maybe its because they can try to sell the whole "center right" meme with her being SOS even though its bogus. Of course most of the rank and file Republicans have said having Hillary as SOS is a farce and have went as far as basically accuse Bill Clinton of selling out to foreign countries and putting their interests above America as reasons why Hillary shouldn't be SOS. And yeah I can provide PLENTY of references on that.

You know last night Arianna Huffington was on Jon Stewart and she was talking about her new book on blogging. She asked Jon Stewart to blog at Huffington Post and he asked her how blogging would be any different from him saying what he feels about whats going on during his show. Now she had a decent answer but I thought she missed a crucial point. With most blogs the author allows people to comment on what they have read. So to me blogs are about having enough confidence in your work that you not only put it out there for every one else to read, but you also invite the criticism that will inevitably come. Thats one of the reasons I think blogs like NRO and even Sullys aren't true blogs and are somewhat cowardly because they don't allow comments where everybody can see them. But another crucial thing about blogs that allow comments is that they take the author out of their own personal echo chamber. They get feed back from other people who might validate their opinion or totally obliterate it. And these are people who are free to say exactly what they feel because of the anonymity of the internet. So the author gets a better feeling of what the average feeling about a particular situation truly is rather than just using their own opinion to project what everybody else believes.

I say all that to say FIFRL your post seems to have come from some kind of echo chamber. So maybe you should pay attention to the responses to it because maybe just maybe your opinions aren't the average opinion. And of course your distorting of Coates' words and mangling of the facts really hurt your argument A LOT!

OK, I fucked up and admit I did not remember that quote properly. When I'm wrong, I admit it and I was wrong here. It still doesn't change the gist of my argument earlier (and, no it was not a misreading of what Ta-Nehisi wrote), nor my other arguments.

Now, are you going to man-up and take back the ridiculous "strawman" remark and how it makes me weak?

I see one of the reasons for these complaints is that the right is actually praising some of these picks, Rove for one, and Limbaugh saying nice things about Hillary. Another reason is that some of the Clinton people are in the treasury area and the left is suspicious because of all the deregulation that occured under Clinton with Rubin and Summers at Treasury. I can see how some Obama supporters (especially those who really didn't pay attention to a lot of what he said) would think they were voting for something vastly different than a Clinton, and now they are getting a whole lotta Clinton in the government.

Maybe they saw Obama's election as a final nail in the DLC coffin and now reality is setting in. Perhaps they confused Howard Dean's campaign to win back the Democratic wing of the Democratic party with Obama's more expansive approach.

Politicians understand that rhetoric during campaigns gets heated, the foot soldiers often don't. They may still take all the negativity surrounding Clinton during the primaries very seriously. A lot of them were told to hate the Clintons (Randi Rhodes drunken rant is going through my head right now) but now they are told they are good people.

In a usual primary, the sides beat up on each other for a short time, then kiss and make up once one got his or her ass handed to him. All is forgotten. This time, it was long, bitter and divisive.

sgwhite in fla:

"Wouldn't Hillary's inability to say she was wrong be analagous to the right wingers' complaint about Obama not admitting he was wrong about the Surge? Just asking."

Obama did admit he was wrong about the surge, to Bill O'Reilly's face. "It worked better than we could have dreamed," I'm paraphrasing. So there's teh actual refusal or inability of Clinton, and the false allegations that Obama wouldn't admit he was wrong about the surge. (Seriously, the right wing KEPT beating that drum, just making up shit, well after Obama went on O'Reilly).

I see no connection or analogy.

A lot of the left hates Clinton for the same reason that a lot of the right is going to hate Bush in a couple of months.

When you realize that you haven't been defending your guy based on your principles but because you hate the folks attacking him so much, that's irritating in hindsight.

Quadruply so when you look at what he *REALLY* accomplished while you were defending him so vigorously and how it has so very little with what you actually wanted.

Progressives defended Clinton.
Conservatives defended Bush.

I expect the next line, in 8 years, to read "Progressives defended Obama", for the record.

Yeah, this whole anti-Clinton people argument has been really frustrating to me. I am actually really disturbed by it. Did these "Clinton people" take some kind of blood oath at the end of the Clinton administration promising to be loyal to him forever and never forming an independent thought or learn from their years of experience? I mean this is just silly.

People can't have it both ways. Either this is the most difficult transitions that a President has ever had to face and Obama should be able to hire people that know what they are doing or he shouldn't. I mean, if people really thought that he wasn't going to hire Clinton people, I say, grow up. Also, listen to his response when he made that quip about Hillary advising him. It hasn't been reported but he mentioned people from the Carter, Clinton and Bush I years that may have some useful experience to bring to his administration.

Once again, people who haven't been paying attention continue to project their issues on to Obama. And the press does the same thing. This is what is wrong with politics, no one listens but then frames a narrative based on what they want to hear.

I shouldn't have called you weak. More to the point, I shouldn't have accused you of lying. We all misremember things.

trevorb says

sgwhite in fla:

"Wouldn't Hillary's inability to say she was wrong be analagous to the right wingers' complaint about Obama not admitting he was wrong about the Surge? Just asking."

Obama did admit he was wrong about the surge, to Bill O'Reilly's face. "It worked better than we could have dreamed," I'm paraphrasing. So there's teh actual refusal or inability of Clinton, and the false allegations that Obama wouldn't admit he was wrong about the surge. (Seriously, the right wing KEPT beating that drum, just making up shit, well after Obama went on O'Reilly).

I see no connection or analogy.

trevorb

First let me say to you that I voted for Barack Obama so I am not trolling. But your answer was actually wrong. I actually watched Obama on the O'Reilly show because I was pissed that he granted those bastards an interview. Barack Obama NEVER said he was wrong about the surge. What he did was praise the efforts of the military and he said as you pointed out that they performed beyond any one's wildest dreams. But he also pointed out that the Anbar awakening was the real conduit to the reduction in violence. And he reiterated that if he had it to do over he would still have opposed the Surge and he also pointed out that we still have more troops over there now than we did pre surge. Listen the truth is Obama WASN'T wrong about the Surge. But the right winger's were holding it against him that he woulnd't say he was wrong based on the fact that the violence went down. To me that is directly analagous to calling out Hillary for her not saying she was wrong about voting to go to war. First off the resolution the Congress passed was supposed to emphasize diplomacy but keep war on the table just in case. Bush and Cheney decided to make war the first option for obvious reasons. Second Hillary Clinton was representing the state of New York which lost over 3,000 people on September 11, 2001. If she had voted against that bill she would have been run out of town on a rail. A lot of people seem to have forgotten the tenor of the average person living in the north eastern section of America before we went to war in Iraq but I don't. I kept trying to convince friends and family members that we shouldn't be going to war with Iraq unless the weapons inspectors found a smoking gun. The response I got was a collective and effusive EFF YOU! Hillary Clinton as well as just about every other Democratic presidential candidate this year who was in the US Congress in 2004 and actually saw what we know now to be bullsh!t intelligence voted for the bill. So its the exact same thing to me in my mind when Obama says he won't say he is wrong because his underlying reasons for opposing the surge were right and Hillary says she won't say she was wrong because her view of the intelligence as presented, the legislation, as well as the public sentiment at the time were right.


http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Obama_stays_cool_during_OReilly_questions_0904.html


Obama acknowledged that the surge "succeeded in ways that nobody anticipated -- including President Bush," but he maintained that the political progress the surge was meant to foster has still failed to materialize. Furthermore, he said, a part of the reduction in violence needs to be credited to the Anbar Awakening, where Sunni tribal leaders in the province turned against the insurgency and began cooperating with Americans.
.
"We have reduced the violence, but the Iraqis still haven't taken responsibility," Obama said, accusing Iraq's government of failing to invest the country's massive oil wealth in its rebuilding.

Indeed we do. I'm a pretty passionate guy (see earlier postings!)so I can be quick to go on the attack. It occasionally gets me in trouble (see earlier postings!), but I'm also heartened to see that this is, indeed, a forum where we can have a heated debate and not hold it against each other.

It seems that there's a stripe of liberal who jumped from "Obama voted against the Iraq war" to "Obama will be a dove across the board when it comes to nat'l security" with absolutely no reason to make that jump, and now they're shocked, SHOCKED, at the moves Obama is making. Even in Obama's anti-war speech he says he's not against all wars. He voted against Iraq because it was a bad idea not because he's an ideologue. At no point has he ever given anyone any reason to believe that he would be a dove when it came to foreign policy. I mean, did people listen to him in the debates? At the AIPAC conference? I just really don't understand why people are surprised that he's being pragmatic and realist rather than ideological.

Wouldn't Hillary's inability to say she was wrong be analagous to the right wingers' complaint about Obama not admitting he was wrong about the Surge? Just asking

Fair enough, although progressives view the war as a moral failure, whereas not supporting the surge could be considered a tactical failure.

Moreover, the surge would be unnecessary if not for the war.

My fellow liberals need to remember that a president is a chief executive, and that he must delegate authority to people who believes have the expertise to carry out his programs. Since most of the talent pool available to Democrats consists of people who served in the Clinton administration, Obama naturally is going to appoint many people who worked for the Clintons, just as Dubya picked many people who had worked for his father and for Reagan.

If would be great if the Democratic talent pool had less Clintonites, for sure, but unfortunately, since Clinton was the only Democratic president during the last quarter century, this dominance is unavoidable.

clinton hatred spans the political divide. just tune in to any program at any time day or nite on msnbc -- from the lying asshole joe scarborough/meeka brezinski to the hot new item, rachel maddow.

i've been mystified at the depths of the animosity and their ability to hold onto it for these many years. i've always thought it originated in bill's lower class origins and his audacity to advance to the highest office in the land. he's smarter than the wdc commentariat; he's clearly got some mojo that keeps him going; but mostly, the sally quinn/christopher matthews social circuit failed in their efforts to destroy him.

so, hillary must pay -- whether it's through the ugly sexual innuendos to the latest accusation of her 'parallel government' she'll establish as sos.


I'm not sure what's hard to understand. The tone of Obama's rhetoric was, obviously, change. While only a child would take that to mean change in everything, I, personally, was so incensed with D.C. in general by November 4th, that I was fully prepared to vote against every single incumbent regardless of issue or party and was quietly pining for a national movement of Gen-X'rs and younger to do just that.

There is something very broken in the Beltway, more so that I've ever observed in the mounting years of my adulthood. Personally, I blame quite a bit of it on the Boomer leadership (public and private) and hope that things will swing back to some form of sanity once they're all shuffling off their mortal coils. The very fact that Obama doesn't belong to this Me-First generation is my strongest reason to be hopeful about his administration, even though I disagree with his views on a number of levels.

As far as Hillary is concerned, frankly, I'm one of those white guys you cite that is simply repelled by her. The further away from the handles of power, the better. She's a political animal, through and through. A poll-following, Orwellian visage stacked upon layers of fail. And, frankly, she's a liar that will simply not admit when she's wrong or even when caught. If she's that way in public, and if George Stephanopoulos and Dick Morris are correct, than (activate understatement) in private she's not someone a subordinate can easily correct. This inevitably leads to bad decision-making. The fact that she seems to posses a startling intellect just makes her seem like more of a threat in my book.

Citing Susan Rice to bolster your argument, though, begs one to ask why you think she's a good example of someone from the Clinton administration that deserves any kind of national office. She so completely misunderstood the real world in the 1990's as Richard Clarks aide, that her baby, Presidential Decision Directive 25, which advocated the use of lightly-armed UN peacekeepers instead of properly equipped combat troops led to some unquestionably disastrous UN debacles from Rwanda to the "Blackhawk Down" combat in Somalia, and pointedly mentioned by OBL himself, led to emboldening of terror attacks because the perpetrators did not fear UN troops or it's political will to use force. She's got other Rwanda skeletons in her closet as well, but that's a whole other thread.

Point being, she's a bad example of an effective cog in our leadership machine.

If she's that way in public, and if George Stephanopoulos and Dick Morris are correct, than (activate understatement) in private she's not someone a subordinate can easily correct.

Are you seriously giving Dick Morris ANY credence? You might want to get information about Hillary Clinton from sources that are

a) not republican hacks who pushed every smear available at Barack Obama including the "he's a terrorist sympathizer" meme

b) not people who hate the Clintons because they tossed him aside after Bill's presidency

George S is kinda suspect at times too but Dick Morris is appropriately named.


Can you give some specfics about Hillary's past that give you pause and can you also talk about what "threat" you think she might be and to whom?

Thanks

I have more of an attention span than just Fox News-baiting Morris. Go back to his waning months and soon after he left the administration. For the most part, I agree with your opinion of him, although I'd stop short of hack. He seems like a man driven by emotion alone...which is bad, I admit. George S. is a much better source for the sort of picture I was trying to paint. Plus, he's got the bonus of not being perpetually pissed off by the mere mention of the name Clinton.

To maintain balance, I try to read not the words written about, but written by, principles on both sides of the isle. Her "Village" book has plenty of nuggets to be averse to, but two things stand out in my mind. First, and most recent, was the "sniper fire" thing during the campaign. This was not a matter of the media blowing something out of proportion. This was a matter of her getting caught red-handed in a lie and then compounding it again and again. That's not so much threatening as it is sickening. I expect better behavior from my 4-year-old.

As far as a threat, a single quote, which I saw uttered from her own mouth, is chilling enough. Paraphrasing, she said something to the effect of "wouldn't it just be great if everywhere people gathered, there were messages being shown about the right way to care for kids". Again, paraphrasing, but that's the gist. That's telling on bunch of levels. Government messages where people gather? The "right" way of raising kids?

Add to that the mishandling of her healthcare initiative back in Bill's first term, most visible in her selection of pointmen (or persons, if you will). An effective leader isn't necessarily the best at everything, but knows how to pick the right people and put them into the right jobs...and listen to them when they hold different opinions.

Scott

It would help greatly if you could find that quote or something close to it where Hillary Clinton said something evidently right out of the Orwell's book 1984. I am not saying it doesn't exist but I have never heard of it and some how I would have thought it would have come up in the campaign. I don't know how messages about good parenting would affect her as a SOS though.

As for the Bosnia story I really have no idea why she did that and yeah it looks bad, but I don't find her to be a compulsive liar so it would seem to me she probably just let somebody shape her narrative and ran with it. Not to say thats right but still I don't really know that the story would have helped her even if it had been true.


Scott I don't know how you recall Bill Clinton's presidency but I and most people think it was a pretty prosperous time and quite a few things went right. But Bill Clinton himself hired the WRONG people at first when he came into the presidency and really thats the biggest reason why universal health care didnt get passed because he didnt even have the support of his fellow democrats because he didnt' know how Washington works. But he did learn and like I said Ithink he did a pretty good job. Similarly I think she can get better at her talent selection and I think she will do just fine as SOS. Thats just my opinion and I respect your right to have a different one. But I did kind of expect you to have more major gripes with her than what you posted.

While a huge part of the right, especially here in the south, despised Bill Clinton for his challenge to the status quo by virtue of his humble upbringing, a lot of us on the left were angry with him for allowing the national debate to continue to swing to the right. The Clintons are terrific policy wonks and excellent at crafting solutions, but they’ve never demonstrated an ability to organize public opinion. As a result they tended to find successes where they could find common ground with conservatives (tho perhaps this was the only way possible in the 90’s), and they ceded a lot of debate to the right before even starting.

After listening to Obama since his DNC debut, I have always taken his meaning of “change” to be his focus on a more perfect union. A large part of that is the need to shape public opinion. Shortly after his election to the Senate, he told a reporter that losing the Supreme Court to the right would be a positive development for Democrats, because it would require Democrats to stop relying on the Court to protect us from bad law, and finally understand that they must convince the nation of the need for good laws in the first place.

A large part of Obama’s message has been about listening to all sides and using what works. While at first glance, this sounds like the Clinton approach, the Clinton approach lacks that primary element of shaping public opinion first. In other words, he appears to believe that public opinion must come BEFORE policy, not after it. That is a huge fundamental difference between Obama and the Clintons, and the main reason I so strongly opposed Clinton in the primary, even though I really do like her and genuinely enjoy listening to her.

For almost twenty years, the GOP has relied on the exact same ideological solutions no matter what problem is encountered, and this has peaked under Bush, as they’ve actually been able to implement a lot of it. But the ideology itself became their only goal, leading to disastrous results. It became the goal for many of us on the left too, as we expected a more perfect union to follow if only our ideology could win. But ideology is only a tool.

I’m probably more liberal than Obama, but I am thrilled by the lack of progressive ideologues on his team so far, in favor of old Clinton hands and folks like Gates, because it demonstrates to me that he wants to shatter the left/right divide in this country in favor of a focus on results first. Obama is smartly shifting our focus back toward shaping public opinion and getting things done. And THAT is the change I can believe in.

I also don't really see the need for somehow insisting it is a particular brand of white male that feels this way about Hillary. And I'm a black male.

Sorry, but you just can't argue or insinuate this applies from a racial point of view when it just plain DOESN'T.

If anything it has more to do with gender. You'd have a much better argument, Ta-Nehisi, if you would have just wrote, "There is a particular brand of male" like you should have in the first place. And my guess is you know it. Instead you're engaging in largely semantic arguments to hide the fact that there exist a large number of men who are uncomfortable with Hillary Clinton for any number of reasons.

Making it racial, or even delineating it racially, in this case just makes no sense whatsoever.

John, thanks for articulating exactly what I was trying to say in my original post before I became unhinged and got into a flame war with Ta-Nehisi.

"there exist a large number of men who are uncomfortable with Hillary Clinton for any number of reasons."

I'm sure the laundry list has been building for some time. I always thought that there seemed to be a kind of regression with some men when Hillary was First Lady. Damn lost their minds that a successful woman lawyer was in the White House. Have I completely imagined Elanor Roosevelt as a respected figure with those men's grandfathers or greatgrandfathers? What happened since then? Black pantyhouses bleeding in the laundry and ruined all their shirts? Or was it the kid down the street who had a party and ruined thier lawn; damn mother is always out of town. Not sure, but I was suprised by the shit they piled on her. It was like she was a lightening rod for the hidden shit sexists assholes brooded over. She's not my favorite person, but I always try to stay conscious of all that. Couldn't have been easy.

"Damn lost their minds that a successful woman lawyer was in the White House."

The extension of that logic is that anyone that had a problem with her is somehow prejudiced against successful women like some sort of default neanderthal. Hopefully, during the next administration, people that have legitimate beefs with Obama won't be labeled racist, but I'll not hold my breath. Were I to be able to ask him one question in person, it would be a request that he take pains to make sure his supporters take the high road and not see a Klan hood behind every disagreement.

I have plenty of issues with Hillary and not one of them have anything to do with her plumbing.

Message to liberals:

Some things worked during the Clinton years. Lots of good things. Yes, it is true.

Get over it.

First, I think the whole argument about "Clinton people" is stupid. Obama is not hiring a bunch of Clinton loyallist, he's hiring people who, at one time, worked for the Clinton administration. That's a huge difference that some people seem eager to dismiss.

That said, I freely admit to being one of those people with Clinton Derangement Syndrome. But my problem is not with Hillary Clinton, it's with Bill. If Hillary Clinton is Hillary Rodham right now, none of these issues would even be relevant to me. My big problem is, I don't believe in a million years that Bill would behave - either professionally or personally. I fully expect him to continue to do things that would humiliate Hillary, and by extension, the administration, even after Hillary is SOS.

Look, compared to Bush, I think Clinton was a GREAT president. He got a bunch of things I agree with done, and the Clinton years were definitely more prosperous than the Bush years. But I also think he was complicit in his own downfall. Seriously, if you know that there is a "vast right wing conspiracy" trying to bring your presidency down, wouldn't you at least make sure that you don't deliberately present the conspiracy with gifts on a platter? Forget the things he did before he was president, I happen to think that the private lives of politicians are irrelevant to their fitness for office. But Monica Lewinsky in the oval office? That is just spitting on the face of people who believed in him, people who tried desperately to defend him because we believed in what he was trying to accomplish.

Yes, none of this is Hillary's fault, and it's unfair to her that people like me keep harping on about Bill. But the fact is, he is still her husband, and if the last 8 years is any indication, he is still doing things that can embarrass her, not to mention his own dignity as an former president.

So, that's the source of my CDS - it's about Bill, not Hillary. Unfair to Senator Clinton,definitely, but I can't just 'GET OVER IT, DUDE", because I don't believe that Bill Clinton is about to change any time soon.

I think it is foolish in the extreme to put the whole onus on Bill Clinton for his "downfall" (and note that he was not removed from office). Clinton was an excellent president--which was the job he was hired to do. The country, under his leadership, was better in almost every way than the country we have now. Yes, he did something VERY stupid in having an affair. But don't forget that the same vicious crowd who went after him were guilty of the same offense themselves, from toe-sucker Bob Livingston to Henry Hyde. That did not stop them for one minute. One thing Democrats did not do is circle the wagons on his behalf. This was a very important lesson because the crazy attacks on Barack Obama are starting already with the Supreme Court looking into the natural born citizen garbage for the 100th specious time. This is utter nonsense, yet it wears people down. They start to think that if Republicans are whining that much, there must be SOME truth to what they said, even if there isn't. People on all sides say things in the heat of the election, but it's time to stop this ridiculous "Bill Clinton is crazy" meme and start circling the wagons again.

"I think it is foolish in the extreme to put the whole onus on Bill Clinton for his "downfall" (and note that he was not removed from office)."

I didn't say that it was his fault and his fault alone. But surely we can agree that he provided some of the materials for the Republican attacks? Sure, most of the people attacking him are hypocritical, power-hungry jerks who are a million times more despicable than Bill Clinton, but that doesn't change the fact that something happened between Bill and Monica in the oval office. And it's not even about the morality of cheating, or judging him for having an affair, etc etc. As far as I am concerned, the only person who has the right to be angry at you for cheating is your significant other. Other people should kindly keep their opinion to themselves. What it's about is behaving in a way that he knew will give Republicans reasons to attack him, thus undermining his job as a President. It's not like it was such an unexpected avenue of attack, Paula Jones and Gennifer Flowers was an issue even during the primary. Is it too much to ask that as a President, he acted in a more responsible manner?

And the comparison with the issue of Obama's birth certificate is not valid IMO. Obama did nothing wrong, it's not his fault that some people are ignorant and stupid. Bill Clinton, on the other hand, knowingly provided fodder for his attackers.

But I agree that we have to circle the wagon to fight the baseless smears against Obama. I'm not sure I agree with your contention that people didn't circle the wagon enough for Bill Clinton, though. I think for a lot of people, Monica Lewinsky was the straw that broke the camel's back. A lot of people were stil strenuously defending him through Paula Jones, Whitewater etc.


Ok, after two comments of sounding like a deranged Clinton-hater, let me make a couple of things clear:

- I don't have any problem at all about Obama hiring people who used to work in the Clinton administration. I think it's smart move.

- I think Hillary Clinton will do a great job as SOS. I think she's more than qualified for the job. My only reservation is regarding Bill Clinton and whether he will behave in a way that will cause problems for Hillary as SOS, and by extension, the Obama administration.

- Yes, the nightmare of the last 8 years under Bush does make me realize that Bill Clinton was an angel compared to Bush. But I didn't vote for Bush, I voted for Clinton twice, so the sense of disappointment is different.

Maybe it's irrational to still be angry at Bill Clinton after all these years, but for some people, it's hard to shake the feeling of what-if, what else he could have achieved if he hadn't squandered a lot of his credibility to the various scandals. Maybe he wouldn't need to triangulate that much. Or maybe not, maybe that was always his instinct anyway, who knows.

I guess I just wanted to explain that for this particular white male, the Clinton problem is not about Hillary at all. It's Bill. It's always been Bill.

I wish I knew Tessa. But I'm with you I find many of the anti-Hillary comments more than just bordering on misogynistic. The bottom line is: We men have a lot of work to do with women in power issues. And it is just us; American men.

Other countries don't have this problem. Israel has already had one female prime minister and is on the verge, with Livni, of having another one officially elected. England has a strong history of women leaders, ditto Germany, Liberia, large parts of Africa, Asia and South America.

Look Hillary Clinton is flawed. There's no question about it. And much of the rage directed at her from the left is residual anger at Bill's squandered legacy. She can also be mendacious, intellectually dishonest and purposefully inflammatory. However, I'll pay anyone a significant amount of money if they can find a major politician that this doesn't describe.

But at a certain point we have to be honest to. Maybe, just maybe, we've regressed or at least remain fixed when it comes to our notions of gender roles. It'd be better if we were just honest and face up to it.

But, on this one, I just can't see how it in any way has anything to do with white males as opposed to say, males in general. Black males, Latino males, Asian males, all males and all male cultural groups, at least here in America, have to admit the men in their culture have more than their share of problematic gender notins.

But we do progress. If anything America's shown it can take an issue and (finally after far too long), confront it head on and make rapid progress. My guess is we'll probably see a female president in the next 12 years. But I've been wrong before so who knows. Anyway let me stop before others accuse me of digressing too much.

Of course I think Bill Clinton was stupid to have sex with that woman and to lie about it. Stupid and a little disgusting. HOWEVER, there's always something that someone can dig up about a politician. I was just reading about the brilliant Perikles, leader of the Greeks during its Golden Age, and how he was brought down by some bogus accusations against his lover, the brilliant Aspasia. It was some titillating nonsense that had nothing to do with his brilliance or the wonderful things he did for Athens. Again and again through history, the best, most wonderful leaders can be brought down for some stupid reason.

"Again and again through history, the best, most wonderful leaders can be brought down for some stupid reason."

I don't disagree with this. I just think that Bill Clinton also gave his attackers enough rope to hang him with. After the Paula Jones/Gennifer Flowers kerfuffle, I thought he would have known better to behave himself, at least while he was in the White House.

There was a discussion on Slate XX Factor blog a while ago about whether Hillary should divorce Bill. Like me, some of the bloggers there are worried about various nefarious dealings of Bill Clinton (business and personal) that could haunt Hillary as Secretary of State.

I got into trouble with my wife because I came down on the "Hillary should kick Bill to the curb" camp. She thought the whole discussion is monstrously inappropriate and presumptuous - it's bad enough Hillary has to put up with her husband, she also has to put up with people analyzing her marriage and "advising" her on what to do with the relationship.

As in most things, I'm most probably wrong and my wife is right. That said, I just wish that Hillary's confirmation hearing will not turn into a recitation of Bill's greatest hits. But I kinds doubt it.

"Scott

It would help greatly if you could find that quote or something close to it where Hillary Clinton said something evidently right out of the Orwell's book 1984. I am not saying it doesn't exist but I have never heard of it and some how I would have thought it would have come up in the campaign. I don't know how messages about good parenting would affect her as a SOS though."

Sorry for the delay in replying to this. Your concern that she would say something right out of 1984 is well-placed and SHOULD ring alarm bells.

That quote, which is more closely paraphrased as "screens displaying common-sense childcare wherever people come together in groups or have to wait" is distinctly arrogant. It implies that said people waiting don't know how to raise their kids and that the people providing the content on the screens, ie the government, ie Hillary, does.

Another gem along the same lines from Hillary is the sentiment that "we need to stop thinking of children as someone else's kids" or something very close to that. The point being, in a soft-handed, sensitive sort of Big Brother, is that we shouldn't just sit by and assume that someone else is going to take care of those kids.

The reverse of that logic, unfortunately, is that my kids aren't my kids and someone else needs to care for them.

I would consider a modern-day Rousseau to be a threat to my liberty. Hillary's "It Takes A Village" which both of the above paraphrases come from, is shaded in Rousseau logic. Thus, I consider her views a threat. Combine that with what I perceive to be personality that doesn't brook with dissent and, obviously, has a tendency toward wanting power, and I think all of the makings of a threat to liberty are there.

"There was a discussion on Slate XX Factor blog a while ago about whether Hillary should divorce Bill."

I would have immeasurable respect for that move, as it would show some actual core values vs political expediency. While I have some serious problems with Al Gore, I would have voted for him in 2000 had he resigned over the impeachment...and yes, he was impeached, just not removed from office.

Let's get one thing crystal clear. The problem most people I know have with Clinton, and this was case during and after the whole thing happened, is that he was caught...he knew he was caught...and he showed the whole world that he wasn't man enough or honorable enough to own up to it. Instead, he basically changed an entire lexicon in our language regard "is" and "sex". I find it a bit troubling that my 17-year-old's friends don't think oral sex is, in fact, sex. This was not the case when I was in high-school in the early 90's and I blame der schlickmeister for it.

If Hillary and Al would have distanced themselves then, I would have a lot more respect for them. That would take some real nerve. Granted, Al probably wouldn't have gotten the nomination and she probably wouldn't have won her senate seat, but that's the crux of the issue, isn't it?

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