Comments for The real problem with black on black crime

The real problem with black on black crime

2008-12-30T20:36:59Z

It's clearly gangsta rap, or lack thereof. Seriously, I'm always amused by people who blame gangsta rap for black crime. Anyone who knows hip-hop knows that when the music was most conscious--late 80s, early 90s--the streets were insane. And when the streets were most sane--mid to late 90s--any fool who could gun-talk was going platinum. Proper Talks points us to this helpful graph.

Whatever. I don't need no visual aids to tell me what I've known for years--niggers done loss their minds since Dre fell off.

Comment from EdTheRed on 2008-12-30

2008-12-30T21:04:33Z

Well, you could replace sales of gangsta rap CDs with sales of any other genre of CD over the same time period and that graph would look pretty much the same.

Comment from Tyler on 2008-12-30

2008-12-30T21:09:38Z

Many many moons ago, New York City (or one of the nearby areas) banned pinball machines because they promoted delinquency and degeneracy.

Fingering Gangsta Rap as the culprit for black-on-black crime strikes me as just as silly.

Comment from matt on 2008-12-30

2008-12-30T21:15:31Z

I wonder if this is a lagging indicator. I think the link goes backwards. Crime creates gangsta rap,art is a mirror, not a projector. After the crazy crack-filled 80s you get the thugged up music of the 90s. After the calm 90s, gangsta rap crashes. Will the increasing homicide rate bring dre back up?

Comment from Jonathan on 2008-12-30

2008-12-30T21:23:49Z

It's hard to look at these stats without wanting a better break out. I mean, I know any dead body with a vile or some brown dust on them is a "drug murder", but I'd be curious to compare the minutiae. How has the nature of black on black homicide changed between say 1992 and 2006? How have battles for turf evolved? Are robbery-murders down, or at least are fewer kids being shot for their sneakers/polo/starters? Who's doing the shooting? Dealers, users, or just plain thugs? Has there been a relative decline of dopefiends? Is the kind of dope important? I'd say yes - hop heads are a lot more calculating and they live longer. Crackheads are just goddamn crazy. It's so hard to analyze basic murder stats without looking at the underlying changes in The Game.

Comment from laborlibert on 2008-12-30

2008-12-30T21:31:50Z

I'm not sure what they include in the gangsta rap category. To me, gangsta rap would basically include anyone who ever rapped for Death Row, Ice-T, and a couple of other mid-90's clowns (Wack-10, Tim-Dog, etc.), and not much else. I consider gangsta rap almost exclusively west coast. Using my category, gangsta rap is essentially extinct and has been for 10 years.

I suppose that by "gangsta rap" they must be referring to any rap that is not performed by Will Smith, Blondie, rappin Grannie or the Chicago Bears (sorry for the company Mr. Smith you were awesome in "I am Legend").

But when people say gangsta rap causes crime, at least when white people say this, I think it means that it causes dumbass white kids to act and dress like fools.

Comment from KevDog on 2008-12-30

2008-12-30T21:31:51Z

Place the blame where it truly belongs: on the oddly shaped shoulders of Celine Dion.

Comment from nikkos on 2008-12-30

2008-12-30T21:31:59Z

Sales are down cuz gangstas be downloadin' them shits for free!

Comment from josh on 2008-12-30

2008-12-30T22:02:58Z

How could he have fallen off, his last album was 'The Chronic'?

In reality the uptick in black on black crime clearly coincides with Outkast's breakup and TI's emergence. Pretty clear evidence.

Comment from KT on 2008-12-30

2008-12-30T22:03:09Z

I don't disagree with the overall point, but that chart is garbage.

Comment from Jonathan on 2008-12-30

2008-12-30T22:09:34Z

There's certainly still gangsta rap. It has thrived on the east coast - 50 Cent being one obvious example. But you have the Dip Set, Max B, Maino, Uncle Murder... all guys that are making noise in NYC more or less adopting west coast styles in their music or at least the attitudes. MOP and Mobb Deep are still out here doing there thing though more on a traditional east coast style. Down the 95 you have Beanie Sigel who's serious both with his music and his thugging, Clipse out of Virginia Beach who have not stopped talking about crack and guns for three years or more, and that's not even counting the myriad youtube-only dudes who talk a lot more about their guns and corners than Cube and Dre and them ever did.

The south has produced a ton of (good) gangsta rap as well over the last 10 years. Lil Wayne is an obvious example but Plies, T.I., and up-and-comers like Webbie, Boosie, etc all qualify.

Lastly, west coast gangsta rap is far from dead, and plenty of artists out there are still making records. They're not experiencing the dominance of the mid-90s where you might find your average mid-level homie from a random crip set with a video on stress rotation, but you do have The Game who's made no effort to hide his gang affiliations and has some of the more critically-acclaimed rap records of the past several years.

If you can find it, SergOne (of we-eat-so-many-shrimp fame) has a great mixtape series called "Hard As F*ck" (2 volumes).

Comment from Bruce on 2008-12-30

2008-12-30T22:17:42Z

Hey man!! lay off dre...he's been at it for years...Detox is coming out next year...or the year after that...or the year after that...or the year after that....ok, it's not done yet...but trust me, its coming out! Man this "gangsta-rap and black violence meme was lame when it came out then, at it has increased it's weak-sauce value/index/percentage since...
btw...have we settled the issue of weak-sauce yet? i say it's percentage, kind of like with alcohol...although i would like to have an index kind of like S&P...for those who wish to invest!

Comment from laborlibert on 2008-12-30

2008-12-30T22:29:04Z

Wow Jonathon, thanks for the knowledge. I should have included the Game, who to me is the last man standing (and hardly) as a big-time west-coast gangsta rapper.

I think we disagree on what gangsta-rap is though. I probably wouldn't include Beanie, and I definately wouldn't include MOP or Mobb Deep. I just don't associate they stylistically with gangsta-rap (and I think Mobb-Deep is too good to be put into that category).

I don't think Lil Wayne is a gangsta rapper either, but more importantly I disagree with the assertion that he is good. It think his lyrics are so non-sensical that it's hard to put him into the gangsta category.

Comment from Bruce on 2008-12-30

2008-12-30T22:37:06Z

Tune in to Bishop Lamont (nigger noise), Ya Boy (the Fix) and San Quinn (The Rock: pressure makes diamonds) from the bay-area...new, not necessarily gangsta, but definetly good west-coast rap...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WS_zP8qRKVQ

Comment from Jonathan on 2008-12-30

2008-12-30T23:06:23Z

Bishop Lamont is dope. He goes. Quinn's been the dude since forever. My Bay roots are showing...

I mean, dissecting whether or not M.O.P. or Mobb Deep is gangsta rap would require a working definition of the sub-genre, but to me it's rap that concerns itself with a) gangs, b) drugs, or c) violence in a manner that endorses it on some level. If that's my working definition, Danzini and Fame fit, Havoc & P fit, and Beans (probably the longest rap sheet among anyone mentioned) definitely fits. Now if the definition has solely to do with flying a rag and identifying with an LA set of bloods or crips, that changes things... but bear in mind a lot of these NY rappers started flagging up when the sets got larger out here and the young boys started flagging. Dip Set for instance turned red (and purple, FTW) rags into fashion accessories out here.

Wayne is certainly on some other schitt these days, and we can agree to disagree on its quality. But coming out from The Hot Boys and with a solo debut called "The Block Is Hot", it'd be hard to argue that he's not on some level a "gansta rapper".

**note: I almost never use this phrase to describe a rapper... it feels so... PMRC. I'm just arguing semantics for sh*ts and giggles.

Comment from Bruce on 2008-12-30

2008-12-30T23:23:25Z

Bishop Lamont is the shiznit...and he's dre-affiliated! So there!! Dre never fell off!! did i mention detox?!

Comment from Kai in NYC on 2008-12-30

2008-12-31T00:50:44Z

Or all that early indoctrination is only now bearing its full, bitter crop.

Comment from on 2008-12-30

2008-12-31T02:56:00Z

Ta-Nehisi, I see your point, and I don't argue your point, but it's a little silly for you to post this chart just after your post criticizing someone else's statistical interpretations. That chart, as KT says, is garbage. In a statistically literate culture, you could post it as a joke, but I don't think it works that way here. Just say no to crappy and fake stats!

Comment from Matt on 2008-12-30

2008-12-31T03:01:22Z

So when the economy is bad, people buy less things, and crime goes up? So that explains that while Bill Clinton was president crime went down, and while Captain Chimpy McDumbass was president, crime went up.

Comment from KevDog on 2008-12-30

2008-12-31T04:14:54Z

@Matt

Captain Chimpy McDumbass

I've been laughing for 15 minutes about that one. Every time I see it, I crack up.

"And now kids, it's time for the Captain Chimpy McDumbass show."

"Mommmmm, can we watch something else?"

Comment from Lesley on 2008-12-31

2008-12-31T15:32:04Z

There's been a sudden uptick in B on B crime in Baltimore: five people were gunned down in West Baltimore last night. Far as I know CD sales are tanking.

Comment from Dallas on 2008-12-31

2009-01-01T03:32:05Z

From one trickster to another thanks for getting the joke. Whoever looks at this graph for statistical truth is a coward and more likely a supremacy apologist.

For many, many years our society has marginalized Black males. The chickens will come home to roost which is all that the supremacists have brokered on.

You are right, no visual aid is needed to know this. But for those of you reading this post with no soul you might want to open your eyes to the essence of my phony graph. Gangsta rap is effing up young Black men, America is.

Comment from Dallas on 2008-12-31

2009-01-01T03:32:28Z

From one trickster to another thanks for getting the joke. Whoever looks at this graph for statistical truth is a coward and more likely a supremacy apologist.

For many, many years our society has marginalized Black males. The chickens will come home to roost which is all that the supremacists have brokered on.

You are right, no visual aid is needed to know this. But for those of you reading this post with no soul you might want to open your eyes to the essence of my phony graph. Gangsta rap isnt effing up young Black men, America is.

Comment from Domonic on 2009-01-01

2009-01-01T23:05:50Z

Without an appropriate lag variable it is impossible to make sense of that chart. And while it is probably correct that hip hop is not responsible for any increase in violence (the old statement "Oh yes, because the hood was so safe before hip hop" comes to mind), this data might still have some explanatory power. If one considers the Chuck D claim that Hip Hop is the black CNN, with an appropriate lag variable, one could make an argument that you will see an increase in sales two or three years from now because of the current rise in violence. The issue isn't particularly salient now, so it is not reflected in sales, but as people get more concerned you will see people buy music that reflects their concerns.

Just a hypothesis...

Comment from paxcanfield on 2009-01-01

2009-01-02T02:35:19Z

I never thought music had much influence on behavior. However, I do think it can reinforce stereotypes. If white folks are scared of black men, it's probably detrimental for them to see and hear scary depictions of black men over and over in the media. That was always my problem with gangsta stuff--that it just drove home the idea that white folks were right to be scared.

Comment from Don on 2009-01-02

2009-01-02T05:18:41Z

I THINK WHAT TA-NEHSI IS TRYING TO SAY IS THAT WE SHOULDN'T CRITICIZE MUSIC ABOUT MURDER AND DRUG DEALING.

IT'S O.K. TO CRITICIZE A LITTLE BIT FOR SHOW BUT THE STUFF IS SIMPLY TOO ENTERTAINING TO GIVE UP.

WHO SAID RAP IS TOO VIOLENT? REMY MA? OR WAS IT STACK BUNDLES? MAYBE PRODIGY?

HOW CAN U COMPARE ROCK ARTISTS? DO THEY KEEP IT REAL LIKE THAT? PASS THE POPCORN

PLUS WHO BUYS CDS THESE DAYS WHEN YOU CAN GET IT FREE OFF THE INTERNET? WHERE'S THE GRAPH THAT SHOWS DOWNLOADS THIS IS 2009?

Comment from All Mi T on 2009-01-02

2009-01-02T14:46:30Z

sals is inadequate to calibrate this in the download age - try that and then tell me the relationship. It impacts behavior in dress, and language, why not in problem behaviors inclusive of crime and violence?

http://rawdawgb.blogspot.com/2006/07/new-knights-of-kkk.html