Worth a viewing. I found very little to object to, save his shot at Def Comedy Jam. But that's fine. What I found much more annoying was David Gregory's questions. I feel bad even calling him out. Whenever I hear journalists--frankly, black and white--discuss African-Americans, it always sound like a group of puzzled scientists discussing Martians. I expect Cosby to be very concerned about the problems of black people--they are, after all, black. If you ever attend one of Cosby's call-outs--and I think everyone should go to one--he sounds more like a pissed off Detroit Lions fan, than a racial scold. I made this point in my Cosby profile. I remember at one call-out he addressed people like me who like to compare black folks to the immigrating Italians and Irish. To which he responded, "I'm black, man. I didn't root for Max Schmeling. I rooted for Joe Louis."
That's typical black barbershop logic, and it's fine. It's about what I'd expect from a seventy year old black man. Negroes want to win. Got it. Furthermore, I don't really see a problem with kids getting that message either. It's good to feel like you want to represent. It's good to be proud of who you are. It's good to be competitive.
My standard for journalists, however, are different. If the journalist is going to talk about black on black crime, I expect him/her to have some knowledge of violence and crime in cities, amongst various ethnic groups throughout history. If he's going to talk about the current crisis out of wedlock birth, I expect him to know that there were more black women, per thousand, having babies out of wedlock in the 1960s, then there are today. I expect him to know that the number of single women having babies, per thousand, with one major exception (crack era) has declined among blacks, while rising among whites and Latinos. I expect him to be familiar with his topic.
The Beautiful Struggle: A Father, Two Sons, and an Unlikely Road to Manhood 
Copyright © 2009 by The Atlantic Monthly Group. All rights reserved.
TNC, you are expecting too much from TV journo. If you want to watch a good TV show where the interviewee is questions by a hard smart nose, and skilled interviewer: watch Hardtalk on BBC World. Look at the grilling they done on Obama, Jesse Jackson Sr, and Harold Ford.
Journalists no longer meet those standards, TNC. That's why I personally have given up on the MSM and don't pay them much mind anymore.
"Whenever I hear journalists--frankly, black and white--discuss African-Americans, it always sound like a group of puzzled scientists discussing Martians."
I felt the same way in law school when they talk about the concerns of minority students. As if the classes would be different for black or filipino kids. As if white kids and latino kids both didn't want jobs after graduation.
You're expecting WAAAY to much...today...if a journalist even eknowledges the issues facing minorities...he'll be ostracized by his peers...a politician would be similarly ostrasized for being "soft on crime" or "a socialist"...
I wouldn't just thumb journalists for this. Apparently, if TNC's stats are indeed correct, they directly contradict professors I had in both black studies classes and public policy classes. I would be interested in seeing some raw data.
Single moms having kids isn't in and of itself bad, despite mountains of data that suggests children doing better in just about every category with two parents in the home. The problem is with single mothers in the lower income brackets having kids without support, be it from a spouse or family...regardless of race.
TNC: "My standard for journalists, however, are different."
I expect you are familiar with disappointment
My parents had every single vinyl that Cosby ever released up through the 80's. I cut my comedy teeth on "To Russell My Brother", "Street Football", "Why Is There Air" just to name a few of his best.
To this day, I have them all on the Ipod and resort to Cosbyland when gridlock makes me want to kill someone.
My favorite impromptu Cosby moment was an award show a few years ago when Wanda Sykes tried to get him into a discussion as she patrolled up and down the isle. He wasn't having it, saying something like "on our show we used proper grammer." She just didn't know what to do with...much like the NAACP speaker afer Cosby left the podium a few years back after calling out urban black parents.
I've often wondered how long it was going to be for the more rational (and, frankly, younger) in the black community to start loudly recognizing Cosby's stances as, at the very least, pointing in the right direction.
Scott,
Click through the link. In terms of single-parent births, the charts and data are there. Look at the part that hyperlinks on "these two reports."
Are we wrong in thinking that there's an actual market for journalists who like, know a lot about topics they're covering or subjects on which they're asking an interviewee his opinion? I mean - there certainly seems to be a gap to be filled there, i.e. money to be made and success and acclaim to be had. I don't believe that we're just an echo chamber here, that most people are actually too dumb, or are sheep, or are just too busy to appreciate quality journalism, that in general it isn't worth it to assume a higher level of intelligence and engagement among the public. I mostly see the gap being filled online, which might be the best format but is also apparently a tough place to make sustaining, reliable revenue. Or maybe I just think that because I get most of my news/info/media/analysis/whatever on the web.
I've long been aware of a high volume of inaccurate or biased 'conventional wisdom' and general BS in the vast volume of information we see flowing around in the public sphere and between people. I do feel like it's an overall improvement in what's been available during most of human history and also that the rate of improvement is growing. More people read and more real stuff is available, even among the larger avalanche of nonsense we see on, e.g, the web.
The more people who are provided with a good solid foundational education, who are encouraged to think for themselves and be analytical and open-minded about things, the more they'll naturally seek out, promote, buy, and maybe even produce quality journalism, quality analysis, etc.
-sv
I just wanna hear/see TNC's Cosby Impression. C'mon. You do one. Everyone does Teh Cos. How does it match up with Colbert's (who also cut his comedy teeth on Cos)?
"Whenever I hear journalists--frankly, black and white--discuss African-Americans, it always sound like a group of puzzled scientists discussing Martians."
Yeah, I felt the racial ectoplasm big time while watching the interview yesterday. It's ghosts - and aliens.
The risk, in terms of message received, regardless of message intended or the accuracy/inaccuracy of stats given:
'Hey, white people - especially white men - you're off the hook. Black people (especially black men, you know - "The Martians") are apparently still the real problem.'
Eeew, sticky..
Isn't the most relevant statistic NOT the number of out of wedlock births per thousand, but rather the percentage of African American births that are out of wedlock?
(see: http://www.brookings.edu/papers/1996/08childrenfamilies_akerlof.aspx)
Jeff,
It depends on what your discussing. If you're asking yourself "Is out of wedlock birth on the rise in black community," then the answer is no. As the charts I linked to show--there are less babies being born to single black women then there were 30 years ago. But there are even less babies being born to married black women then in the past.
In other words, we presume that 70 percent to be the result of unmarried black women having a bunch of kids out of wedlock. But that's false. The change isn't among black women who are single, at least not in the "more kids" direction (indeed, they are having less kids). The change is among married black people. If you're going to talk about that 70 percent stat, you need to put in context. It's shocking, I know, but I've yet to here any pundit say, "Man, married black women really should be having more kids.
But, this is also a function of the reporter doing the questioning - David Gregory is hardly Tim Russert.
That said, being collectively derisive toward a group of professionals is foolish. There are good reporters both on the major channels and on indie channels. There are bad reporters on both. David Gregory happens to choose vapid, surface questions and not follow up.
Sorry to be the grammar police, but I think you mean fewer kids, not less kids.
What percentage of married Black women went into the marriage with at least one kid? Or married a guy who had at least one kid? I can't help but wonder if this is part of the reason marital fertility is low among Black women.....
I have to agree with Jeff that the percentage of births which are out of wedlock is a more meaningful statistic than the out of wedlock birth rate (i.e., number of out of wedlock births per 1000 women.)
Sorry if I missed something... I caught the episode and the one stat they brought up was that 50% of black kids are growing up in single-family households. Is that incorrect? If correct, is that not cause for concern?
KCN: "I have to agree with Jeff that the percentage of births which are out of wedlock is a more meaningful statistic than the out of wedlock birth rate (i.e., number of out of wedlock births per 1000 women.)"
Please say why.
I would pay a lot of money to see a Cos/TNC bloggingheads.
KCN:
You're still missing the point of TNC's comment and frankly the point about why that statistic is meaningful in the first place. That's ok, because nearly every newspaper or magazine that has published that statistic has also missed the point.
The rising rate of out-of-wedlock births among black people is driven by the dramatic decrease in childbearing among married black women, not any increase in childbearing among single black women. Both groups have been having fewer kids, it's just that married black women have a lot fewer kids. In fact, I think that married black women have about the lowest childbearing rate of any married women (it might be married black women w/ BAs).
The rise in out-of-wedlock births is due to a compositional shift in childbearing within the black community. But of course, like TNC said, we're not going to hear anyone in the media anytime soon exhorting married black women to have more babies or bemoaning married black women's resistance to childbearing.
By the way KCN, the more likely explanations for the lower childbearing among married black women are probably the same as those for married white women, the economic disincentive of supporting a large family and the pressures of balancing work and family obligations (rather than the idea that they come into the marriage with children already).
Your problem seems to be that you have confused David Gregory with a journalist. David Gregory has no clue what a journalist does or should do. He is an a$$kissing stenographer who is best known for singing and dancing backup to that great hip hop and rap artist, MC Rove. That fact alone should tell you that Mr. Gregory is not exactly up on the latest in the issues of the African American community.
Socgrad basically nailed it, and mentioned something I forgot to. It's not simply that married black women have less kids than single black women--they have even less kids than married white women. Unless we're going to start lecturing married black couples about having kids, we really need to be careful about deploying that stat.
"I remember at one call-out he addressed people like me who like to compare black folks to the immigrating Italians and Irish. To which he responded, 'I'm black, man. I didn't root for Max Schmeling (sic). I rooted for Joe Louis.'"
This was/is part of my fundamental beef with Cos. It is intellectually dishonest to argue that Af-Ams are failing to live up to the standards of hegemonic America, without calling out hegemonic America for its "failings" (single parent households, anti-intellectualism, crass consumerism, etc) and recognizing Af-Am life as an indicator of larger societal problems (canaries in the coalmine). In short we do not have a stranglehold on F***IN' up. But if you are going to expect Af-Ams to be greater than the society in which we find ourselves (Negro exceptionalism) than one must argue the specifics of life as an Af-Am contemporarily/historically (racism, segregation, slavery, etc) with acknowledgemnt of how the two remained intertwined and continue to influence Black life and crate challenges that other groups did/do not have to contend with. This is not to say that some of us are not making boneheaded decisions, but no different from other Americans, regardless of race/ethnicity. Also for Cos to make it such a class based argument is sickening. What he did not ask is where was/is the Black middle class or rather why does it seem like so many in the "Talented Tenth" have deserted the Black working class and poor to the vicissitudes of late corporate racial capitalism? I liked what Eric Dyson had to say in his critique of Cosby.
I'm not gonna get into all the stuff yinz are talkin about. I will just say that I teared up when Cosby was talking about pulling out the pics when he went to vote.
If the journalist is going to talk about black on black crime, I expect him/her to have some knowledge of violence and crime in cities, amongst various ethnic groups throughout history.
You expect too much.
---But, this is also a function of the reporter doing the questioning - David Gregory is hardly Tim Russert.---
Which...honestly? Isn't saying much. I find the deification of Russert really disturbing. He was like the Harry Reid of journalism.
---I liked what Eric Dyson had to say in his critique of Cosby.---
Finally reading his book on the Cos now, and it is quite a sonning.
Back OT: I still can't bear to watch a Cos interview because there's a serious chance my flatscreen would not survive. So I need to stay away.
To The Other JC,
It was more than a sonning . . . Dyson has his foot dead up Cos' A**! It is no wonder that Cos repeatedly declined Dyson's offer to publicly debate him.
Thank You Ta-Nehisi and SocGrad,
You both clearly and concisely explained what I have been telling people in regards to that particular statistic.
Also for the commentor who mentioned that 50% of black children are being raised in single parent households. I am wondering if you ever took into consideration that there are children with non-resident parents in their lives. There was a Newsweek article written about TNC's family that spoke about this and pretty much stated that there may be more nuance to the statistic. I see this myself. My best friend's father lives in New York, she grew up in New Jersey. She was considered as being raised in a single parent household however, he was in her life and helped to support her. I am not sure how this would be measured?
SanSouci,
I completely co-sign with your argument. It is the same exact thing that I bring up when it discussions with others about this topic. I cannot get why other people refuse to understand it.
I read Dyson's book from when it came out and I thank him for putting something out that can counteract what is being put out by people like Cosby.
This is a fascinating example of how carefully you need to read statistics... another point - could these data be explained by women having kids first and then getting married, rather than vice versa? From a policy point of view, it's not how many kids are born to single mothers, but how many kids are brought up by single mothers that matters...
Ajay, the trend to have your kids as the flower girl and ring bearer knows no race.
White and black couples, not to mention white/black couples, are something like 300% more likely to postpone marriage until after they have a child than was the case back in the (comparison of the 1960s) day. I have to get back to work but someone who sociologizes for a living is bound to happen along any minute to provide the backdrop on when exactly shotgun marriage went out of style.
Part of the context of (whoohoo scare quotes ahead) 'the increase in out of wedlock births' is that rise in non-marital households in which children are being raised by both their (unmarried) parents.
Marriage is on its way out, because it's something a (small) majority of cohabiting straight couples find not worth doing. Rise in births to unmarried women of all races is an effect, not a cause. The correlation is, The poorer you are, the less likely to get married, the more likely to have problems associated with poverty.
Bottom line, TNC, is that if you expect someone who gets paid to report the news to uncover this set of facts and violate the narrative 'Those black folks are causing themselves a lot of problems, aren't they? Get a job, pull up your jeans and raise your kids, son', you are likely to be crushed by disappointment.
This narrative will never die no matter how many facts you stab it in the heart with.
"Bottom line, TNC, is that if you expect someone who gets paid to report the news to uncover this set of facts and violate the narrative 'Those black folks are causing themselves a lot of problems, aren't they? Get a job, pull up your jeans and raise your kids, son', you are likely to be crushed by disappointment. "
Co-sign.