With all due respect to commenter IrishPirate, I knew it was only a matter of time before such an argument was made:
It's interesting to me how Irish interprets that Obama's comment. I heard that comment and assumed she was talking about getting shot by someone trying to rob him. But be that as it may, the sentiment that black people are unconcerned about black on black crime is simply wrong....as to the comment about this not being the first black man killed in Oakland by Police recently I believe that. I also wonder what the ratio is of police shooting black men in Oakland to black men shooting black men in Oakland.
My guess it's fewer than 1 police shooting to 100 other shootings. Assuming Oakland is anything like Chicago.
It always amazes me how much anger there is in the black community regarding police involved shootings. You can get a dozen reverends and "community leaders" to show up to protest ANY police involved shooting. Whether it is justified or clearly unjustified as this Oakland shooting is.
Yet hold a protest for some dead innocent kid killed by a gangbanger and few show up. Partly it's because other types of shootings are so common I guess. Partly it's because it's easier to focus on the police as being the main problem in the black community and not the fucked up standards that exist among elements in the black community.
I recall Michelle Obama being asked if she feared for Barack's safety. She said something to the effect of "he's a black man, he might get shot at the gas station".
Now there was a comment that everyone hates police worldwide. I agree. There's a reason for that. Human nature. Yet who do folks call when they are in trouble? Who runs to the sound of gunfire while others flee?
Anyone who lives in any hood, of any sort, has been treated to one of those "Increase The Peace" marches. I date back to "Self-Destruction" and "We're All In the Same Gang
--released at the height of hip-hop's black nationalist phase--concerned, not with cops, but with black people killing black people. I spent most of last year following Bill Cosby around to standing room only rallies in Detroit, Birmingham and Baltimore, talking to people who were pissed off by a variety of social maladies. Number one amongst them all--the murder rate among black men. That year, black men in Philly came up with a plan for the community to patrol the corners.
It is true that a police killing will draw more headlines--but that has more to do with the MSM considers a story, and what it doesnt, than with what black people care about. The fact that people are pissed that a cop shot a man face down on the pavement, doesn't mean that they also aren't pissed about shit like this. I'm black, and I know I am. Walk and chew gum, people. That's the motto this year.
The Beautiful Struggle: A Father, Two Sons, and an Unlikely Road to Manhood 
Hot dammit I just said a lot of the same stuff on the other thread before I noticed this post. Now you leave me with nothing to say. Shit well now I got nothing. Back to lurking for me
"It is true that a police killing will draw more headlines--but that has more to do with the MSM considers a story, and what it doesn't, than with what black people care about. The fact that people are pissed that a cop shot a man face down on the pavement, doesn't mean that they also aren't pissed about shit like this."
So speaking of black men in Philly, you don't think there was a little more outrage in the national black community over Sean Bell than the fact that in Philly last year we averaged a little over a murder a week and the majority of the killers and victims were black? Or is it strictly, in your opinion, a matter of the MSM not sharing that information with non-Philadelphians?
I'm going to pick this up from the other thread because it fits here better:
It's a very big deal when a cop is killed in the line of duty -- shouldn't it be a very big deal when a cop kills someone in the line of duty?
That's my feeling too. Cops represent us, or should. (Speaking as a country white girl here.) We expect more from them. In fact, they're paid to keep order. The real outrage is not that black people aren't angrier about crime, it's that white people aren't pissed about cops fucking killing people.
That last comment should've said 'more' white people.
Tray, individual stories almost always get more press than statistics. It's human nature.
As your man 'Pac famously said in RHYME OR REASON, (paraphrasing): "What makes you think that just because we're both Black, we're cool with the murdering psychopath next door? We're scared to death of him, because WE'RE THE ONES THAT HAVE TO LIVE NEXT DOOR TO HIM!"
One of the sharpest things Pac ever said, in a short life filled with such nail-hammer insights.
@ Trey,
"Or is it strictly, in your opinion, a matter of the MSM not sharing that information with non-Philadelphians?"
Absolutely. I had no idea that was the case until I hit my network of message boards I would visit to kick it with black folk around the country. I sure wasnt hearing about it on CNN or BET.
Yes, Persia, but that one statistic includes about 400 individual stories, some of them rather heartbreaking (little kid gets shot in drug-related crossfire, kid from tough background on verge of going to college gets killed in same, etc.).
Tnc,
I agree with your reasoning here; we do individually care about the rate of senseless and juggle justice always employed in our community. However, the civil rights industrial complex who benefits vigourously from this death-path, perpetrate this through this camera drama lip service.
'walk and chew gum' LOL
Juba, your comment reminds me of when Anderson Cooper interviewed Cam'ron on his show around that whole "Stop Snitchin'" controversy. Did anyone else see that?
I haven't heard that 'Pac track. Maybe Cooper was referencing it when he asked Cam'ron, "So.. you wouldn't go to the police under any circumstances? What if you lived next door to a serial killer?" Cam'ron's reply was pretty funny to me: "Nah... I'd probably move away, but I wouldn't talk to police.." Maybe he was having fun with Cooper, because when Cooper asked him, "So it is never okay to talk to police?", Cam'ron replied, "Sure, it's okay to talk to em, you know, you say 'wassup, how you doin, how you feel'"
TNC: Frankly, I'm kind of shocked you even need to write a post letting people know that blacks care about black-on-black crime.
It's a sad, sad commentary on how some people see things.
Or perhaps years of DC living have colored my perspective a bit. Nary a week goes by where there isn't a stop the violence rally.
sv,
Yeah I could have strangled Cam for saying that dumb isht. He probably was messing with Anderson and trying to get publicity, but...
...Im about to open a new can of worms on the "What is Snitching and What Isnt?" debate but for the sake of this thread I'll pipe down.
Dude Coates that link you posted here, about the Baltimore arson and its entire family of victims... fuck. What utter and complete cowards. I want to say I'd fucking arm myself and go to war were I in that neighborhood but I'm just reacting emotionally to this extreme act of cowardice attacking courage. What to do when the good people are besieged in this way?
Too much of this sort of news for today, it's making me tense and angry. I think I am gonna get off the web. The work day's over, maybe I need a drink.
Irish Pirate,
Do you know that 1 in every 4 dollars for the budget of the Chicago Police Department goes to paying off Police Brutality lawsuits?
Just wondering.
Maybe you don't think that's high. I think it's preposterous.
Please explain to me why you believe Black folk shouldn't be mistrustful of the police?
Just wondering.
It's the not being able to distinguish between law abiding Black folks and the Criminals in the Black community that is what makes Black folk more distrustful of the Police than most Americans. Considering that it can be hit or miss as to whether the police are our friend. I pay taxes, my entire family pays taxes, and one of the public services - law enforcement - I can't consistently depend on.
I recall Michelle Obama being asked if she feared for Barack's safety. She said something to the effect of "he's a black man, he might get shot at the gas station".
I loved her brutal honesty, because it was true. Living as a Black man, he could be shot by a criminal trying to carjack, or a policeman if he doesn't go through all the procedures Black men must go through in order to NOT be shot during random traffic stops.
I wonder, IrishPirate, if you have children. Specifically sons. And, when said son, became of driving age, did you sit down with him, you and a group of male family members and friends, and go through, in extensive detail, how said son was to act when he came upon law enforcement - right or wrong. Did you drill it into his head that his decisions at this moment could be difference between you picking him up at the police station versus picking him up at the morgue?
I've yet to find a White colleague who will answer this question with an affirmative. Because I have yet to find White parents who have THESE kinds of concerns.
Don't question about whether Black folk care about Black-on-Black Crime. Of course we do.
SV,
That, to me, was the most heartbreaking story I'd read in years. That was a family trying to do the right thing--and they were murdered by a bunch thugs for it. It really is a disgusting act of cowardice. I believe in cutting some slack on drugs. But, basically, I have no patience for violent crime. That was one of those stories that really pushes me as an anti-death penalty guy. Here you have a dude who executed a whole family in this most cowardly manner possible. And yet we have to argue for his life. It's the right thing, I know. But man what a test.
People always forget that Cam specifically said that he takes that bizarre position because of the line of work he's in. That is, he believes, rightly or wrongly, that his listeners hold that view and that they'd stop listening to him if he came out in favor of snitching. Shit, there was a ton of controversy on the rap blogs last year when it came out that he got jumped somewhere in Harlem 10 years ago and reported it to the police. And some folks still hate 50 because they believe he snitched on various dealers in one of his songs.
Who watches the watchers? It's a serious social problem that has warranted attention since the term was coined in Latin.
It's crazy that police brutality is a divisive issue, when you think about it -- one has to wonder why some white folks feel good about their tax dollars going to support murderous incompetents.
Police are given the power to kill in the line of duty. Power corrupts. And it seems that 'black on black crime' or 'those nasty criminals' becomes a red herring to distract from rot and corruption within the state.
well, when you have "riots" which target innocent citizens and business owners by destroying property and intimidating bystanders, you have pretty much lost any credibility. so yes, the black community needs to come out and say they also do care about black on black crime. because during the "riots" they perpetrated black on black crime... walk and chew gum people...
i suppose i must clarify... these "riots" i speak of happened last night in downtown OAK, after a peaceful march and protest against the saddening tragedy of Jan 1st.
the businesses and citizens who became unwitting victims of some but by no means all of the folks participating in the march + protest we people that had absolutely nothing to do with the shooting.
not sure how much the national media is saying about this local event...
Again. Did you read the post? This IS the black community--right here, on this board, with this blogger and these commenters.
I'm happy that TNC started the 2nd paragraph of this post "With all due respect to commenter IrishPirate...".
He deserves our respect because he is just as much a victim of the traditional media as the rest of us. He's at an advantage now in that he's reading this blog.
In order to get a better perspective of the black outrage at black-on-black crime, I suggest he click the link here for the blog "Jack and Jill Politics". Then once he gets there and gets enlightened, he click on some of the links on their blogroll. And so forth...
At its core, its not so much that we don't care. It's that we are Scared. Scared of the retribuition from the thugs and the "mistakes" of the police.
If I'm not mistaken some folk at the National Review went through the "Michelle Obama is an angry black woman" meme after she said her line about death and gas stations. Like you I was surpised because she did not say say anything about the police. She was just mentioning the hard fact about black male life in America when it comes to violence.
I also think its important that TNC started the sentence "with all due respect" as well. I think Irish Pirate is a pretty bright and clever commenter. My guess would be that he has a family member involved in law enforcement. I've seen him take up a similar argument before.
yes, philly and other cities hold these protest against crime ( black on black or black on green ) but YOUR MEDIA FAILS TO SHOW THIS BECAUSE OF SWEEPS WEEK!! SO DON'T BLAME US BLAME THE MEDIA AND ITS SENSATIONALISTIC BEHAVIOR!!
You should take it a step further, TNC. Black people are the only people who care about black on black crime. Everyone else ignores it except to use it as a cudgel in arguments like this. Otherwise, it's ignored.
"It is true that a police killing will draw more headlines--but that has more to do with the MSM considers a story, and what it doesn't, than with what black people care about."
Man bites dog. Young black men getting shot by criminals in the city is something that --- in Philadelphia, literally so, apparently --- happens every week. If we lived in a world where a turnstile jumper or a drunk got shot by the cops every week, then getting shot by the cops wouldn't be on the front page either.
I don't the MSM is wrong, here, to give the cop shooting more play. It's is more unusual, and that makes it more inherently more newsworthy. Man bites dog.
"Black people are the only people who care about black on black crime."
Well, I certainly don't think that's true. A lot of white people don't care about black on black crime. But those are the same people who laugh about "Barack, the Magic Negro." I will say that most whites probably feel out of their depth talking about black on black crime.
The Police have the unmitigated power of the State backing them up.
They are entrusted with protecting society and upholding justice with an unending supply of weapons and manpower.
When they shoot unarmed black men it is a big deal.
And people, this isn't a pissing contest about which we should care about more. The issue is the deadly force of institutional racism as meted out by a civilian military force. Black on black crime and how much we all care about it is besides the point.
Stacy,
I believe there are white people who think black on black crime is a bad thing, and will say so if it's brought up. But I think that black people are the only ones who regularly think about it and try to do something about it. Maybe I'm wrong, but I haven't seen any evidence of it.
In no way am I trying to justify what the cop did. I don't know what was going on in his mind, but he killed someone for no legitimate reason. For all I know this cop could be a military reservist who just got back from Iraq and went "funny in the head". He could have believed the dead young man was Bin Laden dressed in a bunny suit. The cop was wrong. The shooting was wrong. The criminal justice and civil justice systems are going to have to deal with this.
The fact is when you give people guns and send them out into a dangerous world they are going to kill folks. Most often they will kill folks justifiably. Sometimes there will be a legitimate question as to whether it is justifiable or not. Other times like this it will be obviously just massively fucked up.
If you read my comment in the other thread I said I'm pro cop. I also said I believe that 20 percent of cops have no business being cops. I want to see better policing and better cops.
My comment regarding black on black crime and the response was based on recent experience. I also meant Michelle Obama feared Barack being murdered by some thug at a gas station not some nutjob cop.
I live in Chicago's Uptown neighborhood. North Side, multi racial, slowly gentrifying, still has a gang problem in spots. Last year an innocent Ghanaian immigrant college student was murdered a few blocks from me in a case of mistaken identity. A march was held. The overwhelmingly majority of the folks at the march were white condo owners.
There's a pain in the ass group in this neighborhood called "Cop Watch" who follow the cops around with cameras. That's their right as far as I'm concerned. Do you know what their turnout at the march was? ZERO.
They see the police as being the true problem and constantly make excuses for the thugs.
I'm not some right wing nutjob. I'm a moderate nutjob with a bad moon rising. I would legalize drugs because it would reduce the criminality associated with it. I think we have far too many people in this country in prison. Since a disproportionate amount of those people are black males I think one could say I'm pro black male.
What I'm not is pro violence, whether it comes from civilians or unnecessary violence from the police. I have no use for thugs in or out of uniform.
As to the question as to me having sons the answer is no. I do have nephews though and I have talked to them about how to deal with cops.
Admittedly, their experience with cops is going to be different than the typical black male experience.
As for what experience I have with law enforcement I will leave that to various imaginations. Since I am a royal pain in the ass to certain politicians in town I like to keep them guessing about my identity. One must not reveal oneself to the Sith before one launches the final assault.
What Matt said, criminals killing people is a problem but has nothing to do with how much we should care when the cops shoot people.
The bottom line is cops aren't supposed to shoot unarmed people, that they do at all is bad, that they disproportionately kill a certain demographic is especially noteworthy and should be called out.
One of the earlier commenters speculated that white parents aren't concerned about their kids ebing abused or hurt by cops because they don't have to be. Quite the contrary (though I recognize it is statistically more of a fear for balck parents). The idea that harm can come because a cop who pulls you over has had a hard day, or is pissed off about something extraneous, or is on drugs/steroids/buzzed is awful but true. My father was a cop killed in the line of duty, and i have some law-enforcement relatives. That doesn't stop em from being worried about what some guy might do on impulse. This is a problem for all of us, especially as life gets more stressful etc. Cops need help w/ stress management stuff, no doubt; but they also need to know that their actions are going to be investigated rigorously, and any abuses prosecuted. I was astonished, looking at a california cop website, to see that all the sympathy seems to be for the poor cop- but that's the way it is in a profession: you identify with your own. Still, there needs to be better screening for hyperaggressive types who may abuse their power, and respect for those who exercise it responsibly. Part of the latter would be reining in their colleagues who abuse their power. A little bit of a sense of humility, and less snse of aggrievement, would serve cops (and msot of us, in our respective fields) better.
That line of reasonng is always flawed, in any case. I remember that there were some complaints about police brutality in Alberta (Canada) a while back. In this case the victims were white also, as well as aboriginal. Well, some idiot police said to the press "I don't think anybody here is concerned about police brutality, they are concerned about keeping pedophiles off the streets."
Those are two different issues, and are not mutually exclusive - we need police to prevent crime and criminals, but in the meeantime we also don't want them to commit random acts of violence against non-criminals, or use excessive force against minor criminals. We want them to find pedophiles, but that doesn't mean that, in exchange, we think it is okay that they beat the shit out of random students who complain about them beating up homeless men on the street corner (that was the actual event, if I remember).
Nitangae
Here's the difference:
The police are supposed to protect you.
That's really it.
You don't hold protests when criminals kill people because they're criminals. If they were amenable to dialogue, they wouldn't be murdering people in the street. You send the cops after them. But when the cops are the doing the shooting ... what then?
A shepherd who murders the sheep is worse than a wolf or a bear. And a police officer who kills the people he or she is charged to protect is an abomination. And I'm not speaking as someone hostile to the police; I grew up a police brat. And the idea of a police officer murdering a civilian, really for no reason, is a perversion of everything police work should be. It's monstrous.
If you want to see the real racial politics here, ask why more white people don't protest when the police kill innocent civilians. Why do they feel safe even if bad cops are murdering children, or ordained ministers? It really only makes sense if those white citizens are counting on the racial bias of the police, if they're assuming that white civilians are still in no danger.
Again. Did you read the post? This IS the black community--right here, on this board, with this blogger and these commenters.
I read this and thought, wow, I'm now black, does that mean I can dance? Do I have to give up my accordion music?
But yeah, it seems as though this is my "black barbershop" proxy. I can hang out here and learn words like "conversate" and "dap".
IrishPirate, you spill a lot of pixels after the words, "The cop was wrong" and I'm not really sure why.
I generally like police. I know several and have, through my martial arts, met several more.
I view the incident in question as quite different from the "I thought he had a gun but it was just a stick" incidents. Such are caused by sloppiness and inadequate training. I want them to do better, but stuff like that is going to happen.
That's not what happened here. There was a deliberate choice to shoot someone that was no longer a threat. As such, it shows an attitude that I consider unhealthy in police, an attitude of "I don't trust our institutions ability to serve justice, so I will carry out my own personal version of justice."
This attitude is a big problem.
Cops kill "a certain demographic disproportionately" because that demographic commits more violent crime than average.
Now speaking only for Chicago if you want to focus on political crime your targets are going to be largely white and male. If you focus on violent crime the targets are going to be largely black males.
If you focus on financial crimes again the white male demographic comes into play.
If pasty faced white guys with oversized heads and clown shoes were committing a disproportionate amount of violent crime in Chicago I would imagine that such pasty faced criminals would be killed by cops at a higher than average rate.
As I said on the other thread there were over 500 homicides in Chicago last year. The Chicago Police killed fewer than 10 of those folks. Even assuming every police shooting was wrong, which it clearly isn't, there are larger issues out there.
As T-Coates said that means focusing on both issues. I don't believe that black folks don't care about black on black crime. Perhaps I gave that impression. I do believe that there are elements in the black community who see the police as being the larger problem than the thugs. I do believe that many traditional black "leaders" such as Al Sharpton see it as in their interest to largely ignore black on black crime and focus on legitimate and illegitimate criticism of the police.
I'm going to search for the numbers of people killed by police in this country every year. I'll see if I can find a racial breakdown. While I'm sure than the number of blacks and hispanics killed will be out of whack with their proportion of the population it will be interesting to see the actual numbers.
Irish,
I meant that thing about respect--no one thinks you're a right wing nut job. At least, I don't. That said:
"What I'm not is pro violence, whether it comes from civilians or unnecessary violence from the police. I have no use for thugs in or out of uniform."
I think you'd be shocked by how many black people agree with this and have made their voices heard on the subject--even if CNN isn't listening.
Irish Pirate
I don't know if you meant it like that but here is the impression I got from the beginning of your post
Niggas commit crimes so cops shoot niggas.
Seriously
Another angle to police-related killings is this:
There are bad apples in every police department. Police officers are entrusted with a great deal of power over their fellow citizens. It's terrifying to witness sociopathic behavior in their ranks; could happen to anyone.
I think its a worthy angle for the MSM to pursue, for what it's worth.
I, too, took Irish Pirate's comment in the way that sgwhiteinfla took it.
I'll add to it by responding to Doctor Cleveland's note that "the cops are supposed to protect you."
I grew up thinking that. I'm white, and grew up in rural Minnesota, so that's not a completely unreasonable idea coming from that background. But, I'm also gay. And as I came out, and studied the history of that community, I also learned not to trust the cops. They'd just as soon bash a fag as catch any fag basher. Might be changing, probably is changing in lots of places, but I don't trust 'em.
They're just as often out to keep various populations in line, to control various communities, as they are to protect.
Then, reading more on the history of the LAPD, not least the Christopher Report, after the King beating and riots...and looking at the history of policing in other areas of the country.......
Cops aren't shooting blacks because blacks are violent. Cops are shooting blacks because they've always shot blacks and they've always gotten away with it.
I just don't trust the cops. I'll call them when I hear the kid in the apartment downstairs screaming "Please don't beat me!" at 2:00 in the morning. But trust the police? Never.
T-Coates,
I'm wouldn't be surprised to hear many black folks agree with me on crime. Blacks are both the perpetrators and victims of crime disproportionately. As Chris Rock might say there is nothing more anti thug than a Church Going old black man who was just mugged and treated badly by the cops he reported it to.
I understand that. Perhaps what I should have said is that some black "leaders" focus on the police as being THE problem instead of focusing on "black on black" crime AND any police misconduct.
As for my comment that cops kill blacks more often because blacks commit more crime I have no doubt that's true. Cops also kill many more males of any race than females because males commit more crime.
It may not be politically correct, but it's true. If that makes me a racist then I must be late for my Klan meeting. Of course they wouldn't let me in because I'm nominally Catholic and have been known to get horizontal with some "sistahs" when I was younger and better looking.
One of my hopes for Obama is that he will take a Cosby like approach to some aspects of the problems of black America. That and providing role models and job opportunities might help reduce the ridiculous amount of violent crime in the black community.
What I want to see for local law enforcement is a raising of standards and better leadership. Leadership is actually probably the "key".
If you take a look at the drop in the murder rate in NYC compared to Chicago the only reasonable explanation is that somehow NY has better police leaders and deployment. That's doesn't mean they are perfect.
Oh well. I have more questions than answers, but one thing this site has given me is a definition of the word "dap". Who knew?
TNC - Totally agree with your point about the MSM. When black people protest against white people it's a monster story, when black people protest against black people it doesn't even register.
Second, the black community SHOULD be much more pissed about a cop killing a black guy than another black guy doing it. This is maybe a bad analogy, but I have two cousins who get in fistfights almost every Christmas. They just don't like each other, and it's really too bad. It causes a lot of strife in our family when they fight like that. But I'd still be A LOT MORE up in arms if some stranger came in and got in a fistfight with one of my cousins than I am when they fight with each other.
Finally, as several people have pointed out, this 'we have to support our police' meme is just so much trash, perpetrated by other cops and racists (I'm white, just for context). Yes, police officers are handed an awesome responsibility, but notice that word, 'responsibility'. Their responsibility is to keep the streets safe, and part of that is handling the powers they are given (like carrying a glock) with more care and safety than an average person. When they screw that up and murder somebody (and 'screw it up' is a generous description of what happened in this case.) they should pay MORE consequences than a civilian in the same situation, not less. They get PAID to deal with exactly that kind of responsibility.
@IrishPirate - I think that the point here is the fact that there IS NO CONNECTION between police misconduct and black-on-black crime. Neither of these things causes the other, and the responses to each are carried out with different emotions (anger and sadness, respectively) and different strategies. I don't think you're making some kind of racist statement, I just think you're blatantly wrong to make that sort of comparison, because you're talking about two fundamentally disconnected problems.
Irish Pirate
Your premise is wrong. It is fact, not opinion, that whites commit more crimes in this country than blacks. Just sheer numbers tell you that if every black person committed a crime we would still be hard pressed to match white folks in sheer numbers because we only make up 13 percent of the country at most. Now if you said a disproportionate number of blacks commit crimes then you might have something. But I understand if you actually believe what you said because thats what the media portrays.
This is what I wrote:
Cops kill "a certain demographic disproportionately" because that demographic commits more violent crime than average.
I stand by that. "DISPROPORTIONATE" is the thing to emphasize. If you want to suggest or allude that black males don't commit more violent crime on AVERAGE than others then so be it. Just don't
expect to be taken seriously.
Here is something you can peruse:
http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/1/1/8/3/3/p118337_index.html
I don't have access to the actual study, but my limited understanding is that Kleck is a legitimate and respected scholar. He is attacked by both right and left in academia.
Recent psychological research is premised on the assumption that police officer decisions to shoot criminal suspects are racially biased, and that officers are more likely to shoot African-American suspects. This assumption is tested with national data on persons killed due to legal intervention, and with data bearing on the African-American share of criminal suspects that law enforcement officers face. The data indicate that the black share of persons killed by law enforcement officers, while higher than the black share of the U.S. population, is lower than one would expect based on the estimated black share of suspects confronted in violent encounters or the black share of suspects who kill police officers.
Irish Pirate
Here is what was in your most recent post
About ten years ago, I was teaching nightschool at Hayward State in the SFBay Area. I had two black kids in my class, one of whom lived in Oakland, the other lived in SF Hunters Point. One night, as we road the BART back home, they got into an argument over whose 'hood was harder. Unlike the usual cliche, the point of contention was not "mine's tougher than yours;" it was "yours is tougher than mine."
The matter was resolved when the kid from Oakland pointed out to the kid from the Point, "I was just readin' in the paper last night about somebody gettin' shot--right down the street from your house."
"Well, they y'go," came the reply. "Folks gettin' shot where I live is news. People gettin' shot in Oaktown don't even make the papers no more..."
A couple things:
1) I live in South Berkeley, about a block away from the Oakland city limits. I often drive past St. Columba's Catholic Church on San Pablo ave. There, they have crosses erected in front of the church for each person who died violently in Oakland the past year. Right now, they probably have over 100 crosses. The moral of the story, people protest the high murder rates in inner cities in different ways.
2) I don't know if this was mentioned in this thread or the other thread. But these were BART police officers, not Oakland PD. Basically, they police BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit), which is the subway/train that connects the East Bay to San Francisco. I don't know if BART police are better trained or worse trained then regular police. But (this is a major assumption), I think maybe Oakland Police are probably better equipped to handle this sort of thing.
3) Someone upthread mentioned the fact that white people never tell their children how to act when they get pulled over. WRONG. It really depends on where you live. My cousins got the lecture of how to act when being pulled over because they live in San Francisco. I don't know how it is in other cities, but I have been told that rookie cops are always assigned to the worst areas in San Francisco, so they get a bit "jumpy." So, if you ever get pulled over in San Francisco, keep your hands on the wheel and look straight ahead - doesn't matter if you are white, black, Chinese, Philipino, Mexican, or whatever. The same is probably true for Oakland, Richmond, and (maybe) San Jose. If you live in Fremont, Danville, Marin, or Orinda, it is probably not that big of a deal. Oh, and my father did tell me how to act when being pulled over (probably because I am a bad driver and he thought I was going to get pulled over alot).
4. Finally, in my neighborhood this past year, there have been a couple of shootings. Some have been reported, some haven't. I know this sounds callous, but you don't really do anything about it. You can't. What you do is you just get up the next day and continue doing what you were doing before.
Black do commit more crime..........on average.
I don't know what the percentage of those killed by police is by racial breakdown. I'm looking.
It makes sense to me though that if green people make up 5 percent of the population yet commit 42 percent of the crime that perhaps the percentage of green folks killed by cops would be higher than their population.
I'd be interested to see what the percentage of Asian Americans killed by the police is? I'm guessing it is at a lower RATE than whites. If so does that mean cops like Asians better than whites.
Or does it mean Asians are a "model minority" and commit relatively little crime?
Even if the phenomenon IrishPirate notes were real, this obviously isn't unique to black people. Americans care more when Arabs kill Americans than when Americans kill Americans. And vice-versa. Pretty much every self-identifying group is bothered more by inter-group killing than intra-group killing, because it's easier to perceive the former as an assault on the entire group than it is the latter.
You can complain that this is irrational--that intra-group violence is more destructive. Fair enough.
But you can't complain is that this is unfair. Just because someone breaks his own windows doesn't give you the right to go over and break the rest of his windows. Once you've wronged me, I have the right to be as mad at you as I feel like, and it's none of your damn business how mad I am at some third party who did something worse.
And of course, as others mention here, the police are acting in our name. Maybe this is just me talking as a white guy living in a rural area, but I'm always going to care about police brutality, torture, or the death penalty disproportionately more than I care about gang killings or al Qaeda beheadings, simply because as a citizen of a democracy I'm responsible for what my government does.
unclesmedley,
That is kind of true. Once, I received a frantic call from my Mom saying, "Are you okay, there has been a shooting outside your house?" Apparently, she heard on the news there was a shooting outside my house. I told her I was okay and I didn't hear about it. However, another time I heard shots outside and a lot of police came. I heard from my neighbors that some dude was shot in the head. But, it never even made the news.
So, sometimes the shootings make the news, sometimes they don't.
The original argument is, "Do blacks publicly protest crime in their own communities? Are they as outraged as when the cops do it?" We're getting distracted and going off into all these other areas. What I'm waiting to see is some proof that blacks aren't outraged by black on black crime. Citing anonymous black leaders doesn't work. Citing Sharpton doesn't work. Citing Jesse Jackson doesn't work. These people do not speak for all of black America, anymore than I do.
If you're really interested in the question--as opposed to simply verifying your perceptions--go walk the streets. Talk to some folks. Sit in some barbershops. Buy a brother a beer. Go to a church. Folks will tell you how they feel. Gladly.
Something to keep in mind, Irish Pirate, as you search for statistics and (it seems to me) seek to justify a benefit of the doubt for the police is this: crime statistics are not necessarily a direct measure of the rates at which any given population violates the law. They are also a function of which violations are reported to and recorded by law enforcement agencies. Communities that are more heavily policed will have higher levels of criminality simply because of the increased police presence. There may be two neighborhoods with relatively equal levels of violence or violations of the law. However, if one of them has a higher police presence, that neighborhood will likely have a higher crime rate. In part, and I'm not a criminologist so I don't know to what degree it is present, the crime rate is an artefact of police activity and not a direct measure of legal violations.
Here are the FBI arrest numbers from 2007.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/data/table_43.html
Blacks beat out whites in basically two categories and thats murder/manslaughter(by a couple hundred) and robbery. But in terms of all non white collar crimes including aggravated assault, burgulary, forcible rape, vandalism, weapons charges, and crimes against families and chldren, that arent white collar white folks more than double black folks in arrests.
MAJeff,
one crime stat that is difficult to "doctor" is homicide. You're right though that police presence will effect the overall number of crimes reported. More cops are likely to find more crime. It also depends on what crimes the cops target.
Look at the homicide rate in various communities. As I said that is one statistic that I think is relatively true. Although if you read the novels of Joseph Wambaugh regarding the LAPD you will believe that the cops found a way to turn many homicides into accidents or suicides for statistical purposes.
Comrade Coates,
I don't believe that black folks don't care about black on black crime. I used to tutor kids in reading at Cabrini Green, infamous largely gone Chicago Public Housing Project, and the kids had to take a bus two blocks to the Catholic Church for the tutoring because the chances of them getting shot or hurt walking east was too great.
I'm still in contact with some of those now adult former "tutorees" decades later. They are largely living on the south side or south suburbs leading working class/middle class lives. They loathe crime because they and their kids experience the fear of being victims frequently.
I don't know what else to say. Perhaps I should have a beer and I'll become more eloquent.
SGWHITEINFLA,
if you find the racial breakdown of people killed by cops in the USA I'd be interested in seeing it.
There are certain positions in our society that have greater burdens placed upon them. As a CPA, if I steal $1000 from a client, I will probably, and should, lose my license. If a bartender rips off his boss for $1000, he will probably get shit canned, but could probably find employment a few towns over.
Irish:
You are really off base with this, and you don't even know it.
I do believe that there are elements in the black community who see the police as being the larger problem than the thugs.
Like who? What are these elements? And do you think they also weren't present at the various peace rallies and lectures Coates already mentioned in his post?
I do believe that many traditional black "leaders" such as Al Sharpton
Now you've definitely lost us. Hell you're on a blog whose author wrote a nationally published piece about how irrelevant Al Sharpton is, which anyone with any experience in the black community knows has been true for decades. Again, he isn't a leader. He isn't relevant. Why are you thinking his actions represent how the black community is thinking and feeling? Seriously, are you actually talking from research, knowledge, and on the ground personal experience or are you just pulling opinion out of your behind?
Irish Pirate
ask and you shall recieve
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2007/feloniouslykilled.html
35 white folks killed cops 24 black folks killed cops.
By the way,
We can do this all night, I have the raw numbers on my side. Disproportionate doesn't mean black folks do more than white folks. What it means is a higher percentage of black folks commit crimes than the percentage fo white folks who commit crimes. That part I have already conceded abovo. But in sheer numbers you won't win in any category.
Now here is another thing to think about re arrests and or prison populations. If there is a black suspect in a crime most places in America its a lot more likely that somebody will be arrested for that crime because the pool of suspects is smaller. But if its a white suspect the police generally have to sift through many more suspects. Again thats a fact not an opinon.
I do speak out of my ass with a nice baritone. I think of my ass as being Limbaughian with sharper sense of irony.
I can actually think of a number of elements in the black community who view police as being a larger problem than thugs. The first would be thugs.
SGWHITEINFLA,
that's interesting. What I'm still searching for is the breakdown of the race of people killed by police. It would be interesting to know what the various ratios are. I already know cops kills a disproportionate amount of blacks and males, but how disproportionate?
Mr. Coates,
To suggest that you, or I, or anyone else can divine what the average black person thinks about black on black crime or police shootings of black men, or the price of eggs in China, is ridiculous. It is possible to ask people what they think, and listen to their answer. It is possible to watch what they do, and speculate from a great distance about a wide range of possible thoughts. It is also possible to imagine that people think what you think they think. It is not possible to KNOW what they think unless they truthfully tell you what they think.
I hope that black people (all people, in fact) are outraged when a person of any skin tone is killed while posing no threat to anyone. I also hope that more people (of all skin tones) will act like they give a damn when murders occur, and when behavior which might incite killing is practices. But I see little evidence of it.
Brian Reilly
To Irish Pirate and anyone that's blindly siding with the police and/or browbeating blacks for not complaining about black-on-black crime,
I recommend before you spout off that you look into the case of Prince Jones. He was a Howard University student who was incorrectly identified by a black narcotics officer who pursued him through three jurisdictions and ended up shooting Mr. Jones. The officer, in question, was black. There was a MAJOR outcry about this case.
Pirate, think before you speak please. I'm not sick of white folks like you that play that stupid card, but hey: get cops to stop shooting folks in the back (Oakland) or in the chest (Houston) as you'll see in the recent BART subway case and the minor league baseball player who was shot in his chest in his driveway over a purported stolen car that wasn't stolen. He had no weapon. Three shots fired. Bullet lodged in his kidney.
Enough is enough. We can deal with your ignorance, but thankfully, you aren't a law enforcement officer. Just in case your aim's any better than your judgement, I thought I'd let you know.
Irish Pirate
These are admittedly old numbers but here you go
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/ph98.pdf
You can go to pages 6 and 7 for the relevant info. But check the subterfuge. When they talk about the race of the person "justifiably" killed by an officer they use the whole demographic. But when they talk about the race of the person who kills an officer they focused on just young black males vs young white males. What they don't say and you can look at the numbers back on page 7 that the increased percentage of young black males who kill officers coincides with the increased percentage of young black men killed by police. Gotta love them working the numbers though.
Of course what is also missing is the "non justified" shootings.
TNC wrote a long piece about Prince Jones and those Maryland county cops a few years ago.
I think Phil Deeze is coming at Irish Pirate all wrong. Talking to commenters like that is no way to further any discussion. I don't agree with Irish Pirate on a lot of what he's said, but he's said nothing beyond the pale.
You guys could quote statistics all day. I think that's the wrong approach. I have no evidence, but I'd be willing to bet that black cops shoot black suspects at a disproportionate rate as well. Why? Well, I don't think cops sign up to be cops so they can shoot black people. I do think a lot of cops suffer from small man's syndrome, and become cops to show their power.(yeah, I'm not breaking any ground here) Unfortunately, a lot of these men are actually cowards who are terrified of their own shadows, and even more terrified of looking like pussies. I think a lot of them are genuinely terrified of the areas they patrol, and the people they think they are protecting "us" from. Therefore, they make a lot of mistakes. And I use "mistakes" in the broadest sense possible. I don't think people of any color should trust cops.
Brian Reilly
The whole point IS that you probably don't see what we see. And you definitely don't hear what we hear. But the absense of evidence is not evidense of absense especially in this situation. The mere fact that you say you DON'T see it and we tell you we DO puts us squarely on a higher credibility plane than you on what average black folks think because....wait for it....wait for it
We ARE regular black folks.
another way of locating institutional racism in the justice dept. is by looking at race and conviction rates. in cuyahoga county a plain dealer study showed that white defendants who pleaded guilty to felony drug charges were more likely to have their charges reduced to a misdemeanor than black defendants, who were more frequently saddled with felony convictions.
it started getting extravagant around here:
Stacy
You gotta admit that I said we could go all night long with stats. I can play that game as long as anyone wants to but I have already made my point long ago.
BTW that was some dirty ass shit that Oklahoma defender just did to Harvin twisting his ankle like dat. Karma is a mofo.
Phil Deeze,
I do think before I type. Whether I think well is another issue.
If you read my posts here or on the other thread I am not blindly siding with police. I don't think I "browbeat" blacks for not complaining about "black on black" crime. Although, that depends on the definition of browbeat and if some folks feel I "browbeat" I can accept that portion of your criticism.
By the way as for my "aim" it is much better with a rifle than a handgun. Perhaps I took a 'shotgun' approach to some of my comments.
Any unjustified police shooting is horrible. I don't dispute that. The BART cop screwed up and he should be held responsible. I don't know enough about the other cases you mentioned to comment intelligently. Although, that has not stopped me in the past.
I do know that a variation on this story I'm about to link to is repeated daily across America. For those of you who don't know Dolton is a black south suburban Chicago suburb.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/24-7/1367901,w-dolton-shooting-teen-010809.article
I do know that there are thousands of black males murdered by other black males in America every year. For the benefit of SGWHIINFLA I also know that there are thousands of whites males killed by other white males every year.
I'm still looking for the hard stats, but the number of people killed by police in this country yearly is well under 1000.
We need to deal with both issues, but one issue clearly leads to more death.
sgwhite,
Oh, I'm fully aware that you could go all night with stats, AND this game. Maybe TNC will give us a thread tomorrow on it. I'll only say this: Stoops should have his head examined for letting his kicker try that 49 yarder. His long was a 42 before tonight! You have a much better change of converting that 4th down. Dumb.
Finally some stats on the number of folks killed by the police.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1447919
Imperfect, but interesting.
Here's how it roughly breaks down.
Cops kill 400 people a year.
Around 40 percent of those killed are black.
Now the earlier stats SGWHTINFLA linked to showed almost exactly 40 percent of those who killed cops last year were black. The exact number being 24 out of 59.
Do I need to browbeat anyone into this point I am vainly attempting to make?
I am in no way trying to justify any police misconduct. Steps need to be taken to reduce it.
In 2007 there were nearly 15,000 murder victims in the United States. Slightly more blacks were killed than whites.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_01.html
Now we can jump up and down and hate the police or we can try to figure out ways to reduce both the 14,000 plus non police homicides every year and the 400 police caused homicides every year.
Justifiable Homicides Committed by Police Officers, by Race of Decedent, as Reported in the SHR and NVSS: United States, 1976–1998
Race SHR, No. (%) NVSS, No. (%) Ratio: SHR to NVSS
White 4832 (56) 4148 (62) 1.2
Black 3592 (41) 2359 (35) 1.5
Other 173 (2) 179 (3) 1.0
Unknown 61 (1) 0 (0) 0
Total 8658 (100) 6686 (100) 1.29
Stacy
Not taking the field goal in the first half and getting stopped on 4th down was crucial too. In a game like this one points are a commodity you simply can't pass up.
Coates
I apologize in advance for thread jacking but....
SEC Bitches!
Irish Pirate
And the whole problem with your reasoning comes out. You see its kinda like the Bush with Iraq thing and the Israel going into Gaza thing. When black folks speak out about cops that kill another black person immediately its pushed as black people hating ALL policemen. Well thats bullshit because a lot of black people ARE policemen. And many of us myself included know and are friends with policemen. Now sure you have your agitators that might look at all cops as bad. But the majority of black people recognize that every police officer isn't out to get us and that there are bad apples in any bunch. But what is interesting is the justification that comes from some white folks, not necessarily saying you, when police shootings go down. Immediately they point out crime statistics and say that gives cops a reason to fear black men and overreact. So to sum it up they argue that black folks shouldn't mistrust all police officers because they kill black folks in "justifiable homicides" in disproportionate numbers but cops SHOULD be wary of black folks because we commit violent crimes in disproportionate numbers. Anybody else see the hypocrisy of that point of view?
Now I am done with this and am going to celebrate the SEC spanking that ass once again. Pieces.
TNC,
As an avid football fan, I'm sure you'll appreciate me telling everyone that the Florida Gators will teach y'alls grandmothers to suck eggs.
Also, from now on when I read your first name it shall read "Tallahassee" in my head.
Three cheers for Tallahassee Coates and the Florida Gators!
Please don't compare me to the Bush administration.
Call me a racist. Call me a browbeater. Call me a dumbass. Tell me my mom dresses me funny. That's ok. I can take it.
I opposed the Iraq war from the beginning. Like Obama I saw it as being both wrong and futile.
Now as to the Israelis and Gaza that is more complicated. Self defense with no end game.....at least that I understand. Also a disproportionate response.
I have more hope that T-Coates and Pat Buchanan will hug one another while dancing with Ann Coulter and Michael Moore than I do that the Israelis and Arabs will find a lasting peace.
We need to deal with both issues, but one issue clearly leads to more death.
When deciding how outrageous something is, the number of deaths or utilitarian harm in general is not the only relevant piece of information.
Other posts above expand on this notion in several directions.
Long time reader first time commenter and I just want to say I've really enjoyed reading this discussion. Most people make great arguments and stay above personal attacks. I happen to agree with IrishPirate on most of his points.
Carry on...
What especially puzzles me is the argument "Of course we care more about police crime against black guy crime than about black on black crime! Every group pays more attention to an assault on the group rather than violence within the group".
This may be true, but that doesn't make it right. Maybe people of all skin colors should care about all crime committed by and against people of all skin colors. And maybe that includes your own.
As a white person, maybe black-on-black crime concerns me more than police crime. Why? Because there's so much more of it. Every life is precious and every life taken is a monstrous tragedy. More of this kind of tragedy happens from black-on-black crime than from police crime. It's not that I deny some cops are racist scumbags. Certainly the cop in this incident is guilty and should be harshly punished. But it's hard to deny that more real human misery is caused by gang-banging thugs than by cops.
Honestly, TNC? I don't think your dude IP is hellbent on believing what he wants. And I say let him, because clearly it makes him feel better. Personally, I'm past the point of debate. Believe that we're all violent hooligans who mug the Welfare Fairy for liquor and expensive sneakers. I don't care. All I know is what I'VE seen and experienced, and from what I'VE seen--as a journalist and lifelong Chicagoan--is that we DO care about "black on black" crime just as much as they care about police brutality.
I've seen it with every march I've covered and every vigil I've attended. I saw the outpouring of outrage and concern when my sister was shot on 47th Street five years ago and it was the same outrage and concern that was present when my brother was murdered in PA five years before.
And let's not act as if black folk haven't been conditioned to fear themselves. Hell, even Jesse Jackson's admitted to crossing the street upon seeing a group of black kids walk toward him. I remember laughing my ass off when I heard that. But now, as a married woman who can't sleep until her husband returns from his second-shift gig every night? I sympathize. And I feel absolutely horrible that I do.
Anyway.
I refuse to feel bad about having a natural distrust of the police--white AND black (LaTanya Haggerty, anyone?) because in MY personal experience they have been beyond ridiculous. And I say this as a person with cops in her family.
I also agree with Irish Pirate. I just don't see why it is unreasonable to think police might be jumpy in a high crime area as compared to a bourgeois area.
TNC - I think your reply to go walk the streets to find out about black on black crime anger is a cop out. If there was truly outrage, your message wouldn't be drowned out by rap kings and stop snitchin' campaigns.
--I don't think your dude IP is hellbent on believing what he wants.
Should read "I think your dude IP"--Me Grimlock shouldn't post while talking on phone.
The Other JC,
Thank you for not mugging me for sneakers and liquor in case you couldn't get at the welfare fairy. I could get even more sarcastic, but it would be a wasted effort.
For those who don't know LaTonya Haggerty was a passenger in a car pulled over by the Chicago Police. The driver was pulled out of the car by the police. LaTonya remained in the car. She was ordered out of the car while trying to make a cellphone call. One of the cops, black female, shot Ms Haggerty and killed her. The cop thought the phone was a gun.
The city ended up giving the Haggerty family an 18 million dollar settlement. It happened in 1999.
--TNC - I think your reply to go walk the streets to find out about black on black crime anger is a cop out. If there was truly outrage, your message wouldn't be drowned out by rap kings and stop snitchin' campaigns.--
LOL. I really need to stop reading this thread, because it's really obvious some people just post for the sake of posting and don't care to have a SERIOUS conversation, nor do they care to do the research, nor do they care to delve deeper to figure out "WHY *some* black people feel that way."
No, it's much easier to blame a genre of music you've probably never listened to, because if Bill O'Reilly says it it MUST be true.
Meh. I need murderers to start listening to Tony Curtis so people can stop blaming the actions of others on stupid shit.
This is a serious conversation. "Popular" black culture promotes a distinctly different image than is being discussed here. A pretty big disconnect. I'm saying any outrage isn't expressed that loudly other than on some blog frequented by the bourgeois.
To keep with the thread jack.
SEC my ass, this west coaster says USC would have owned Florida. The BCS is a sick joke and the Pac 10 gets screwed alomst every year! One of us loses a game and forget it we're out of it, you and the Big 12 all lose games and no problem, you are still in the mix. If your teams have 1 loss we need to be undefeated. It goes back decades, my Huskies got hosed in '60 (We we're #2 and beat the #1 team in the Rose Bowl and only an unoffical Title for it!) '85 (BYU is the Titanic of national champs!), '92 (shared title with Miami, please we would have kicked tehir ass) and '01 (Miami and the east coast media says they should have been the champ, Uh they had 1 loss, to the also 1 loss UW!)
Check out that stats baby, Pac 10, 5 and 0 in bowls!
OTHER J.C.,
I think you are taking a few quotes and making a very general statement. Almost everyone on these threads has been incredibly sympathetic to the situation that happened in Oakland, and towards ill will towards cops in general. Everyone understands why a large number of black people have a distrust of cops. I'm white, and I have a huge distrust of cops. I'm not going to get into anything I've been through, and I'm certainly not going to try to compare my plight to what others have been through. But haven't seen one person on here act like that distrust is misguided.
Pac 10 is weak. Don't lose to OSU. Problem solved.
"Immediately they point out crime statistics and say that gives cops a reason to fear black men and overreact."
Gotta disagree with you here, sg. I don't think IP was saying that cops have a reason to overreact. He was stating that it stands to reason that the cops that work in these types of areas are going to fuck up more. Like I said, I disagree with most of what IP said, but I think you are misrepresenting what he is saying a bit.
I realize this is a sensitive subject, but I think some recent posters are a little too quick to paint other reasonable commenters as "Billy O'Reilly watching, George Bush sympathizing, Dick Cheney-loving assholes."
That last part wasn't directed at you, SG, but TNC's threads are usually better than this.
Irish Pirate's argument misses the point. Statistics and speculation about the influence of rap music misses the point. This is a case of cold blooded murder. A defenseless human being was executed by an officer of the peace, an officer entrusted to protect him. That's absolutely, unambiguously wrong. There is no room for moral relativism, no "he was wrong, but" - no buts. Just wrong, vile, wretched, and terrifying. If you don't feel some combination of those feelings witnessing that video, you should reevaluate the way you look at the world.
You mean the OSU that beat # 19 Pitt in a Bowl game? Yeah it was a low score, they were playing without their starting RB and best WR and a bad call took away a TD. The OSU who every loss was to a top 15 team?
We can play that game too, FL lost to Ole Miss. The Big 12 argument is that they are all good and their only losses are to each other. Except Texas Tech lost their bowl game, Okla State lost theirs (to a Pac 10 team of course!) Texas barely beat a lame Ohio State team and Oklahioma just lost also.
This year cried out for an 8 team playoff. On New Years day there should be the 4 traditional bowls (USC, Penn State, Utah, Okla, Texas, Texas Tech, FL and Ala are a great set, Boise State just misses out since Utah took the non major slot, sorry) The 4 winners play semis the next week and then the dead weekend before the Super Bowl would be a great championship game, think of the ratings, it would own that weekend.
A story from over here in Jersey:
Back about 15-20 years ago, a couple of white cops showed up at a residence in a working/middle class white area. There was a party at the residence, and complaints of noise had been called in. The cops asked to speak to the homeowner, who was a 30ish single woman. She was slightly lit, as were her guests, and promised to keep the noise down. The cops left.
In the car, the younger cop told his older partner that he recognized the homeowner from high school, and mentioned some typical adolescent rumors that she was "easy" or a "party girl." The cops returned to the residence where the party had quieted down, and lied about further noise complaints so as to break up the gathering. The guests left.
They raped the woman.
I, as a white person, will always have taxis stop for me. No one ever had to give me a "talk" on how to handle cops because I was black.
But gender? Any male on this board, who breaks up with his girlfriend, thinks in the back of his mind: I hope she doesn't cry. When we break up with our boyfriends, all of us - white, black, latina - think: I hope he doesn't stalk me. A man divorces his wife, he hopes her attorney doesn't take his money. A woman divorces her husband, she hopes he doesn't take her life.
When Michelle talked about Barack getting shot at the gas station, she was talking about possibility and odds. For him, being educated and upper class, the possibility and odds are less. But he's always going to be black, so they're always going to be there. I knew exactly what she was saying, because the same thing happens with gender. It's possibility and odds. Be middle class, live in a nice neighborhood, they're on your side. But the knowledge that as women, we are always vulnerable, that it could always happen to us, is never NOT with us -- any more than the threat of violence, whether from the cops or their own community, is (I expect) never NOT with black men.
In short, I fear cops too. They pose a threat to me not as white officers, but as male officers.
Apologies for the long post. And so to bed.
Joel,
I've yet to see anyone disagree with you. That's the point.
...and there you have it. Thanks, Joel. Nothing more that needs to be said, and I'll return to lurkmode after I respond to this:
--but I think some recent posters are a little too quick to paint other reasonable commenters as "Billy O'Reilly watching, George Bush sympathizing, Dick Cheney-loving assholes."--
I don't know if that was directed towards me, but if it was? Just CALL ME OUT. Christ. And just so we're clear? Namechecking Bill O /= painting all people who disagree with the same broad stroke. But people who usually make statements like "blame hip-hop" are parroting talking heads who usually have no idea what they're talking about, be they donkey, elephant, or "independent." Please stop reaching.
--TNC's threads are usually better than this.--
LOL. *clutches bosom* I had no idea my input was contributing to the devolving of the convo. Pardon ME. But when anyone on the other side is ready to have a SERIOUS conversation that doesn't include shots at hip hop or Al Sharpton, holla. I'll be here.
"I think your reply to go walk the streets to find out about black on black crime anger is a cop out. If there was truly outrage, your message wouldn't be drowned out by rap kings and stop snitchin' campaigns."
Right, because rappers and people who sell tee-shirts are the real arbiters of truth...
For the record I took the time to engage IP on this because--as I said--I don't think he's right-wing cook, much less a racist. (the above comment wasn't his) There really isn't much hope if we can't engage fair-minded people who we disagree with. It's not smart to focus on the fact that their views piss us off--better to confront the matter directly, and head on, instead of name-calling. Even if you don't prevail on the issue, I think it earns you a measure of respect down the road. People stop listening the minute you start telling them what they are. Better to tell them what you've seen, and what you think.
Joel,
I never used any moral relativism directly regarding the BART cops unjustified shooting. To me that is one of the most disturbing "cops doing bad" videos I have ever seen.
It's not the most disturbing "cop" thing I've ever seen. That would be the live action shots of the cops at the Columbine massacre standing around doing nothing as injured kids tried to roll out of windows. I specifically remember one particularly grossly overweight SWAT officer eventually trying to help one kid out of a window.
Later the elected Sheriff of that county said he didn't want to risk his officer's lives. To paraphrase "The Wire": "that was some shameful shit."
That was horrible because it was more than just one cop making a terrible decision. It was almost two hours before any police entered the school. Thankfully, police doctrine has changed since then. Now the doctrine is that as soon as two police arrive on the scene of such a shooting they enter the building immediately and attempt to engage the shooters.
The overall point I was trying to make is that while the 400 killings by police each year should be cause for concern, the larger issue is the 14,000+ other homicides. Also most of those 400 police shootings are clearly justified.
Through better training and recruitment reducing the number of unjustified police shootings can be accomplished. It can't be eliminated. You give folks guns and authority and some folks are going to fuck up. That means that on occasion you are going to watch more videos like this BART shooting.
Also you will see videos of cops holding their ground and doing good like in the famous North Hollywood Bank Shootout in LA. Even then the actions of police will be both unjustifiably and justifiably questioned.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout
There is no question that the BART shooting was wrong. I'm not a cop apologist. I've made comments in these threads which would drive many cops crazier than Dick Cheney at a pheasant hunt.
I'm drinking a glass of wine right now. Visions of Al Sharpton in his track suit are dancing in my head. Mein Gott, why have you forsaken me?
These are some complicated issues. We aren't going to solve it here. If only it "twer dat easy".
When our now 30 year old AA son entered his teens, especially after he got his drivers license, my husband and I always told him that in the event of involuntary interaction with the police, "KISS ASS 'TIL WE GET THERE!" We lived, in those years, in two of the most politically liberal communities in America--Takoma Park, Md and Santa Monica, Ca. Our family was "protected" by income and job status and yet this advice stood us in very good stead at least once. And this is our government we're talking about.
That said and the fact that we didn't see it up close and personal on a regular basis notwithstanding, caring about Black on Black crime (tho' to me it's always been first and last, crime) was not a decision or an option.
Stacy says
Stacy
Can you explain to me the difference between what I said and what you said?
IrishPirate
All bullshit aside what is it that makes you believe that other than reports filed by other cops? Again really and truly if you are looking for why black folks get outraged about cops shooting black men you can almost skip the deed itself and just focus on the aftermath. If more cops were actually held accountable when their actions are in fact illegal it would stand to reduce the outrage. But in the world we live in a cop illegally shooting a black person is just the first offense usually followed up with the more egregious offense of the cop getting away with it. Mind you, again that doesn't mean we fear or hate all cops. But what it does mean is there is a perception that a cop can do anything to you and get away with it. That is a lot of power for another man/woman to have over you, that you have to admit.
BTW I am sure that if you really were looking for those elusive statistics on officer involved shootings you realize by now that the reason they are so hard to find and now current numbers are available is because the different police departments around the country have been reluctant or outright refused to provide that data to any kind of national database. Now maybe its just me but I have to wonder exactly why that is.
I thought the invitation to hit the streets was a good idea (or take a "ghetto tour"... they exist... *shakes head*). Sure, if you stick to the internet and the news media and TV you'll hear the rappers and Sharpton and black-on-black crime stats. But as I've argued with more well-heeled friends, Harlem (or, in this case, Oakland) is not Gaza. It's not The Congo. Hell, it's not even West Baltimore in "The Wire".
In 2008, I figured that with all the gentrification folks would be better exposed to "the other side". But it's true that some people move to the hood and put on their blinders - hustling to work, heads down, only to be seen again during the brief return journey to a new brownstone from which they rarely leave.
And that touches on another issue that was brought up, the amazing (and it truly is amazing) drop in crime here in NYC. I think a better equipped and staffed department has to do with that, certainly. Better tactics, more uniforms, and the ability to trade horses with organized crime for terrorism targets has changed the game and calmed things down somewhat. But more responsible, IMO, is the gentrification that's happened in some of the city's worst parts - Bushwick, Lower East Side, Harlem, Fort Greene, South Bronx, Red Hook, Flatbush, Bed Stuy. What we've done here is push the crime to the fringes, the same as Giuliani did with the homeless. A couple black or Puerto Rican kids on the corner get shot, it's not news... but Lord, shoot and rob a white college student two blocks from the Baruch Houses in LES? Front page for a week. That's bad for business.
East New York and Brownsville are arguably as bad as ever, or worse. Regions of the North Bronx have fallen apart at the seams. In San Francisco, crime has been pushed out to Oakland and beyond - with problems springing up in far-flung towns like Antioch, Pittsburg, Fairfield, and things getting worse in outer-rim slums like Vallejo and Stockton.
These days, everyone wants to live The City Life, but wants to be safe. As long as the drug boys kill each other and leave the taxpayers alone, folks can celebrate a reduced crime rate, a rejuvenated city and plenty of new tax dollars. I think this speaks to the numbers from a week or two back about Black-On-Black Homicide. It hasn't gone away, it's just been brushed under the rug for the time being.
I'm not sure where I was going with all of this. I could use more coffee...
What a dumb argument. Whites kill whites all the time, but when a terrorist kills somebody suddenly its time to start dropping bombs. If we're talking about a lack of perspective, at least African-Americans aren't hijacking national security to deal solely with the issue of violence by cops.
The overall point I was trying to make is that while the 400 killings by police each year should be cause for concern, the larger issue is the 14,000+ other homicides.
So many things wrong with this logic...
1. The police have some culpability in the 14,000 given their role on the front lines of the drug war.
2. The police act in our name. Their only reason to exist is to enforce our laws. Claiming special authority in a community is always going to imply extra scrutiny from said community. This is not merely "human nature", this is both rational and fair. Any cop who objects to this should find some other use of their time.
3. Yelling about police might do more good than yelling about criminals. The aggregate statistics alone won't tell you what would happen in the counterfactual world where some anger at a bad cop was redirected to anger over criminals. There's a difference between anger and sadness. Rational sadness is proportional to past loss, rational anger is a tool to prevent future loss. No one would be crazy enough to argue that black people aren't sad about black on black crime.
There's some other problems here too, but the bottom line is that your whole notion of "larger issue" is irrepairably flawed.
Persia, up at the top, summed up my feeling: what the government/organs of law enforcement do "on your behalf" of course generates a lot of concern about how that reflects on us, more than what the lawless corners of any society do on their own. Similarly what the government is legally able to do to you is going to generate more concern than what non-law abiding people might try to do to you. In theory you have some recourse to appeal to the government to protect you from the criminals; to whom do you appeal to protect you from the government? We are appalled at lawless torture from the mob, but much more so by legally sanctioned torture that is done by "us," or that could be done to us should an acquaintance turn out to have the same name as someone on a watch list.
The cop shot an unarmed, restrained man, lying face down. In the back. I truly, truly--as a suburban white person--do not understand why he has not been to jail or questioned in any way. I didn't think the police were expected to have quite that level of freedom to wipe people out. Why did he do it? And if no one knows yet, why on earth is he walking around free to do it again? The whole thing is appalling--the official response as much or more so than the crime. If any of us shot someone, we'd be heading to police headquarters to explain ourselves, even if video evidence seemed to suggest it was self-defense or an accident. Here we have video evidence of the opposite, and no requirement that he explain his actions before being set loose to walk amongst us again--that's not how we're led to believe our society works.
@ Irish Pirate,
I recommend you research Prince Jones. TNC has written about him before and a site search might have his last post on the topic. Black cop, black victim, LOTS of protests. The problem isn't black and white, and you missed this nuance and I'm disappointed in you: the color that's the problem is BLUE. I recommend you go look up the Prince Jones case.
I've never read your posts, so there's no frame of reference for me to what you think/say on here. But your method is all wrong as far as thinking that black-on-black crime is ignored but when someone under color of law potentially commits a crime there's outrage? If you can't see why that premise you've tried to put forward is condescending and dangerous, again, thank goodness you don't have a gun and a badge because your judgement is as crooked as a question mark.
Folks that think like you might be afraid of O-Dog, Deebo or Willie Horton, and that's fine. If that's what makes you pay your ADT bill, then goody gumdrops for you. Only problem with O-Dog is that you can call the cops on him. What would someone like you do if Samuel L. Jackson reprising his role as Officer Friendly showed up at your door? Who you gonna call?
The initial premise you put forward which was the basis for TNC's post is something I found rather insulting.
ok. i love the post but can't help but notice something very distressing in your linked, very heartbreaking story - i read it over a couple of times just to make sure.
yes, this one family took a stand against the dealers. did anyone notice that most of the quoted commentary from neighbors and friends was not about the actual crime but the failure of police to protect the family? i can't help but notice that the outrage seems less focused on the people committing the crimes rather than those who should be preventing the crime or protecting us from drug dealers.
so, while your point about black on black crime seems to be that black people don't like it - why is the blame (again) laid on the PD doorstep?
before you jump down my throat, yes, i think we deserve to feel outrage over the failures of law enforcement. but aint nothing gonna change til we stop blaming other people for our own damn community problems. if police and whites and everyone else don't give a shit about us, what we gonna do?
It's understandable that criminals don't like police. But the real shame, as is too often the case in high-crime areas. Is when *non-criminals* don't like police. If the non-criminal public doesn't trust the police, the police are doing something wrong. It's that simple.
But the rubber hits the road when aggressive policing--say stop and frisks in NYC--actually reduces black-on-black violence (and that's assuming that stop-and-frisks do reduce crime, which I think is true but is not a given).
Moms need to accept that yes, their angel son may actually be a criminal. But police need to do everything they can to better distinguish between the kids causing trouble and kids just hanging out.
How?
Hire more police with a greater understanding of the diversity in minority communities.
On the job, get cops out of cars and on foot so police actually learn about the nuances and fabric of urban life.
People stop listening the minute you start telling them what they are. Better to tell them what you've seen, and what you think.
I love you for this, T-N. I've been in HR for fifteen years, and if I could give this quote on a laminated card to every diversity consultant of color who walks into a room of white folks...
Heck, I may just do that. Right up there with your quotes on the interracial romance thread. In the meantime, it's going on my FB page.
On the job, get cops out of cars and on foot so police actually learn about the nuances and fabric of urban life.
I agree, IMO there should be some cops in cars as a quick response unit to major disturbances. Otherwise the majority of cops should be walking the beat or on bikes. It has been shown that beat/bike cops are far for effective than car cops at preventing and lowering crime.
I think a good ration of foot/bike to car patrol is about 5 to 1. Half of police departments are assigned to patrol and by and large ALL of this is car patrol.
My idea would be to put new officers in cars and "promote" them to foot patrol. You do need some police in cars not just for major disturbances but more routinely for backup.
If the public wants more foot patrol, why not give it to them?
Unfortunately, there has not been any scientific study showing that foot or bike patrol does a better job at preventing crime. But that doesn't mean it's not so.
Foot patrol has been shown to reduce fear (Newark Foot Patrol Experiment) and car patrol has been shown to be completely ineffective at reducing crime (Kansas City Preventive Patrol Experiment).
I will always be more outraged when a cop of any color shoots an UNARMED suspect of any color already in custody, than any outrage I can muster toward any criminal of any color shooting any other person of any color. Period. This is not to say that I am not outraged at any crime. I am. However, to me it is a horse of a different type when someone sworn to uphold the law who breaks it. PERIOD. And made so, so much worse when they are not immediately arrested.
I admit I'm late to the party and haven't read the whole thread, but just wanted to throw in my two cents.
Even if black people are less concerned about black-on-black shootings than cop-on-black shootings... so what? We expect criminals with guns, whatever their color, to shoot people. We expect -- we should be able to expect, anyway -- cops to protect people and not shoot them for no reason. We pay their salaries to "protect and serve". Big difference.
The thin blue line that separates a police force from a mafia or very large gang is the veil of political legitimacy. In a very real sense if that veil is lifted then any police force is identical in every respect to any other band of armed men to whom you pay "protection." To that end, the police have a MUCH higher standard of care and whenever they use deadly force when it is not warranted it is a BIG ISSUE. Riots are a sign that people still believe in the system and are angry and upset. If the prevailing belief is that anytime you end up in police custody you risk imminent death at their hands, the rational strategy is to never submit to custody. Civil War. Guerrilla Warfare.
"I grew up thinking that. I'm white, and grew up in rural Minnesota, so that's not a completely unreasonable idea coming from that background. But, I'm also gay. And as I came out, and studied the history of that community, I also learned not to trust the cops. They'd just as soon bash a fag as catch any fag basher."
Actually some of the worst stories I've heard in my LIFE have been of this sort. And god help you if you're transgender, you may as well not be a person. This will never cease to blow my mind, how the supposedly instinctive reaction to "I don't understand this" is "kill it!"
Whoa, tangent.
"Well, I don't think cops sign up to be cops so they can shoot black people. I do think a lot of cops suffer from small man's syndrome, and become cops to show their power.(yeah, I'm not breaking any ground here) Unfortunately, a lot of these men are actually cowards who are terrified of their own shadows, and even more terrified of looking like pussies. I think a lot of them are genuinely terrified of the areas they patrol, and the people they think they are protecting "us" from. Therefore, they make a lot of mistakes. And I use "mistakes" in the broadest sense possible. I don't think people of any color should trust cops."
I would also suggest that 1. A lot of cops have REASON to be terrified of those areas -- what cops see of humanity on a daily basis is not what we see, and their reality is significantly more horrific than, say, mine. And 2. Cops are just as conditioned by societal and media messages as the rest of us. Remember how blacks during Katrina "looted" while other ethnicities "saved things"? (I still feel like the only person on earth who had a problem when "Cloverfield" showed fifteen-odd large black guys running into a store to lift large-screen TVs while the monster ran rampant, in contrast to one tiny white guy, front and center, as well as the golden protagonist who ONLY went into the store to nobly find power for his cell phone so he could call loved ones. And I still feel like I'm crazy when I try to point out how, in both "Requiem for a Dream" and "Traffic," we have a story arc where the nadir of a beautiful white girl's journey into the dark is sex with and/or at the behest of a huge criminal black man.)
(Whoa, another tangent.)
My point being, the messages are there every day. Little black girls are still picking the white doll as "better" and black Americans fail the "subconscious racism" test too. Which does in fact make me question the accepted reality of "blacks sin more" very much. I can't see the ocean I'm sinking in.
I'm not entirely sure who I was attempting to support, there.
To an extent I would agree that black on black violence often goes unnoticed, especially when women and children are victimized. I think back to the Dunbar Village gang rape/torture from a few years ago that went largely unnoticed unlike the rape of Megan Williams. The Dunbar village perpetrators and victims are black whereas Megan Williams' rapists are white. I also think about street harassment situations, involving women and men of color - some of which have escalated to violence in numerous cases.
christ you people are still at it? I had my drink, went home, and came back to work.. :)
Irish Pirate, I see your point - black on black crime hurts the black community more than police brutality does. (Whether the current structure of the justice system is responsible for both is another question...) But here's another one: what does black-on-black crime have to do with this particular incident? The cops were presumably called in response to some sort of incident involving mostly black people, judging from the news reports that say that most of the people in the train station were black, but beyond that? I know you realize black people obviously care about the problem of black-on-black crime, and I'll concede that it's a greater problem for them than cop-on-black crime. But this whole thing seems to have veered into another territory. You're saying that the rate of cop-on-black crime (i.e. unjustified shootings and other excessive uses of force) is not actually 'excessive' but is to be expected given the rate of black criminality. What is missing from this otherwise logical statement is something that a few other commenters here have pointed out: Blacks are more heavily policed; they tend to have less chance of being given the benefit of the doubt by an officer exercising his or her power of discretion; when a black guy does a crime he's more likely to get caught because the cops go after black dudes harder. IOW the rate of black criminality is probably inflated. I also get that whatever the quibbles about the exact rates, root causes of said criminality have got to be addressed, and that should be our primary focus.
But the fact that the police - who are supposed to protect the public, and are given a huge dose of power over us all in order to do so - sometimes do the opposite is simply terrifying. Once a cop, short white guy, threw my face into his cruiser for being drunk and loud on the street, and it enraged me much more than it perhaps should have - after all i WAS sort of being an asshole and he let me go (his black female partner sullenly looking on) - but it made me feel so weak and powerless, just like when i used to get picked on as a kid but much worse because there was NOTHING I could do, not even move or raise my voice, and he had the entire weight of the state behind him. I felt bullied and utterly unable to act. Terrifying and, if you're actually innocent like this kid seems to have been, totally perverse and unjust.
Anyway that is why this particular case is so egregious and deserves attention and outrage.
I think none of these issues can be looked at in isolation, actually - police brutality, the mentality of the American public with regard to crime and punishment, the political calculations involved with get-tough-on-crime, various deep-seated race-based assumptions we all make, media reportage of crime, the black community's (and other communities') response to black-on-black crime as well as other types of crimes such as the BART shooting... So I think it's a good thing you brought all this up. I put a lot of words down here but truthfully, I don't feel like I have much to actually contribute that hasn't already been said well, so I'll leave off. phew.
Really digging the respectful dialogue here, btw - you should be proud of your site Coates.
Let me address a some points because some of the comments here seem to be coming from those who know little to nothing about urban neighborhoods and those who live in them:
1. Firstly, I would like for people like Irish Pirate to get Al Sharpton's name out of their mouths. The reason is that you obviously know little about him. I live in New York, Brooklyn to be exact, Al Sharpton has attended talks in regards to reducing crime in our neighborhoods in New York and New Jersey. He has a weekly radio show on 98.7 Kiss FM called the "Hour of Power" and all he discusses is "black on black crime", he brings in people from "100 Blacks in Law Enforcement That Care", Community Watch groups and people from various Stop The Violence campaigns. So please keep your media caricature of Al Sharpton to yourself or better yet stop calling his name when you have little or no facts to back up your claims.
2. Jonathan, as I said above, I live in New York, Brooklyn to be exact. What many fail to educate themselves about is the direct correlation between crime and economics. Of course, gentrification and urban renewal has done a great deal to slow down crime rates, it has revitalized the economies of abandoned and impoverished parts of the city.
One cannot discuss 'black on black crime' without discussing economics. If we are to have a discussion we must find solutions that work to fix the reasons why there is high crime in certain neighborhoods in the first place. This is not exclusive to blacks in this country, look at east LA, Yonkers, NY, the South Bronx as well as countless other places...the Latino community has also had a problem with such crime. Out here in New York, most of the "Stop the Violence" campaigns, organizations, community activists, churches etc.. consist of Blacks and Latinos working together to change their neighborhoods. Of course, this garners no media attention because it will paint too much of a positive image of those who reside in these communities.
3. Another point I would like address are the comments about hip-hop brought forth by KarlK as well as others, please stop speaking about mainstream hip-hop as black culture. Corporations control the type of hip-hop and hip-hop artists that are promoted based on a market that is technically controlled by white consumers. There is plenty of hip-hop artists who do not promote violent messages but you will never hear of them. Also, one must ask where such a culture of "gangsta rap" originated and why it began in the first place rather than behaving as if it came from the sky or is some natural dysfunction of black people. A quick look through history would show that “gangsters” and crime are not exclusive by a long shot to blacks or black communities.
4. Of course black people are outraged by crime especially those who've had family members who were victims of such heinous acts whether by criminals or the police. Or live in a community where they fear that they may a victim of such acts. However the sadder situation is that, those who are there to protect them are participating in the violence and injustice. The NYPD has done very little to help protect blacks in their communities and help black campaigns to “Stop the Violence” in the same way they protect the Jewish community for example in Crown Heights. Now couple all of this with the fact that none of this is new, police brutality is a decades old issue. It would be who of you to research it. Its extremely old, its not any new phenomenon. There is a hostility and fear that exists. Once again, it would be who of you to research this.
This is not as simple as some people think it would be or should be. Its complicated.
Lastly TNC, thanks for engaging Irish Pirate. I completely co-sign with your post, I think you answered IP very well.
"To an extent I would agree that black on black violence often goes unnoticed, especially when women and children are victimized. I think back to the Dunbar Village gang rape/torture from a few years ago that went largely unnoticed unlike the rape of Megan Williams. The Dunbar village perpetrators and victims are black whereas Megan Williams' rapists are white. I also think about street harassment situations, involving women and men of color - some of which have escalated to violence in numerous cases."
NinaG, the issues is that such cases do not garner much attention from the media and when i say the media, I mean all media not just mainstream.
Crimes against black females in general are ignored and underreported regardless of the perpetrator. When black women get attacked or raped etc... the police go through great lengths from what I have been reading to try and disprove their innocence.
Its a complicted issue and deserves its own thread.
Wow,
this thread even got the attention of Peter Moskos.
http://www.copinthehood.com/
http://www.onpointradio.org/shows/2008/04/cop-in-the-hood/
Peter is the Harvard trained sociologist who became a Baltimore cop for a few years.
His dad was the late Charles Moskos. Who was the premier sociologist studying the US military. I sat through a few speeches by the late Dr. Moskos as he taught at Northwestern in Evanston Illinois.
Along with Andrew Greeley and James Q Wilson he was one of my favorite sociologists.
Pick up the book or at least listen to the NPR link I posted. Peter gives some good insights into how complicated policing and police actually are. Plus T-Coates may like it because of the Baltimore link.
Re, copinthehood.com - It's an interesting and valuable perspective. I understand the 'give the cop the benefit of the doubt' attitude from a cop, clearly it's a very difficult and often frustrating job and cops often do keep their cool when most people wouldn't, but I wish more cops would understand the position they put is regular citizens in when they confront us. Shit cops scare the hell out of me and that enormous power imbalance is right in the front of my mind. I'm glad he supports taping cops and says it's a good idea for police to do their jobs as if they're being watched. (Ok, that can have its anal-rententive and PC limits, but generally it's a good idea.)
Of course the bulk of this conversation is focused on the Black male and how fair or unfair criminals and non-criminals may be treated by the police and whether they overreach.
We have not discussed the violent crimes being committed against Black women and children.
I don't think it's that much of a priority for those people that live in areas with high crime rates that are in overwhelmingly Black neighborhoods (be they poorer areas or not) because if it was wouldn't more people have actually done something about it - or left that area? There are a lot of people who have pathologies that don't lend to reasoning. Some people just want to sell drugs, rape and harm people. Some just want to make excuses because it's a Black person and we have displaced loyalties to those that don't deserve it.
For the record, and addressing the post at hand:
The officer in question should face justice at the hands of the law.
The rioters who "protested" Grant's homicide should also face appropriate charges.
People who have been making death threats to the officer's family should also - if we are able to apprehend them - face justice.
There is no "black on black crime."
There is CRIME. In as much as blacks remain hypersegregated, most of the crime that blacks who COMMIT crimes occur will be against other blacks. In as much as the type of poverty blacks face is CONCENTRATED poverty this is going to exacerbate both police surveillance and the rate of violent crime in black communities.
Now given this, to the extent that this is a zero-sum game, that black folks have to somehow choose between police crimes and citizen crimes, I'm trying to figure out why we should care more about citizen crimes than police crimes.
There are three state agents we routinely encounter. Police, post officers, and teachers.
These three agents structure how we think about government, how we think about the state.
Take two killings. Both committed in cold blood.
One committed by a citizen. The other by a police officer.
Which one will generate more distrust in the state, more belief that the state is illegitimate?
Each unwarranted murder of a civilian has a multiplier effect.
"Of course the bulk of this conversation is focused on the Black male and how fair or unfair criminals and non-criminals may be treated by the police and whether they overreach.
We have not discussed the violent crimes being committed against Black women and children.
I don't think it's that much of a priority for those people that live in areas with high crime rates that are in overwhelmingly Black neighborhoods (be they poorer areas or not) because if it was wouldn't more people have actually done something about it - or left that area? There are a lot of people who have pathologies that don't lend to reasoning. Some people just want to sell drugs, rape and harm people. Some just want to make excuses because it's a Black person and we have displaced loyalties to those that don't deserve it. "
Faith, I agree and disagree with you.
1. I am one who works and advocates on behalf of black femanl crime victim; rape victims in particular. I agree with your frustration in regards to it.
However you like some others make the mistake of believeing that those who live in high crime neighborhoods some how enjoy the crime in their communities. This is unfair and ignorant and it completely ignores the many efforts by community people to stop crime in their respectful communties.There are many reasons why this efforts cannot stop crime over night. I think that you need to tune into more black media to get a different perspective.
In New York, The Nation of Islam is recruiting young men to patrol the streets. I heard about it on the radio and I will look more into it.
You also suggested residents of high crime neighborhoods to do something that contributes to this very issue. The moving out and neglecting of neighborhoods is what causes it go down.
Lastly, an explanation is not an excuse. You say that some just want to rape, kill and steal but one must ask why do they get to such a point and what can we do to change this mentality rather than adopting the idea that some people are just like that. Its mentalities like yours that are counterproductive. I met too many people with that mentality and it is why we can never solve such issues.
Can I ask you a question, do you comment over at What About Our Daughters? I read comments by a Faith there and I am not sure if you are the same one?
I've been searching the net for other commentary and facts on the Grant shooting and came up with this.
Black San Francisco columnist makes some of the same points I tried to make. He does it a bit more eloquently though.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/09/BAV915687Q.DTL&hw=oscar+grant&sn=018&sc=158
It seems to me that one point that somehow hasn't been made, at least prominently, in this long thread of comments is that police brutality stirs an acute level of anger, it seems to me, not so much because cops engage in brutality or kill people per se, but that it feels like they do so WITH IMPUNITY.
The protests and outcry generally occur when the cops are acquitted or the investigations are being thwarted. Or at least the demands, specifically, are that the cops are brought to justice.
I cannot imagine that if the Oscar Grant incident happened to a drunk white Berkeley kid out on New Years Eve that there wouldn't be a much greater chance that police officer would be held to account. As a well-educated white female, if a cop so much as treated me unnecessarily roughly, I would complain and expect a proportionate response. I have difficulty fathoming something that would make me feel more powerless than the idea that the people who were charged with protecting me could do what they wanted to me with me having little recourse.
"I have difficulty fathoming something that would make me feel more powerless than the idea that the people who were charged with protecting me could do what they wanted to me with me having little recourse."
I co-sign Mo, nicely said. This is at the root of many's frustration.
P.S. Irish Pirate, why is it that you have not owned up to the fact that you were wrong about Al Sharpton?
Rhonda,
I don't want to think anymore about Reverend Al.
He might show up in my nightmares with the tracksuit and ridiculous hair.
What I actually think about Al is not for this thread.
The column you linked to just shows--and I don't mean this as hard as it comes off--that whites aren't the only ones to confused rights with privileges when it comes to black people.
Let's go back 70 years. At the same time that black people were lynched at a rate of one/day, black people were killing each other routinely in jook joints over women, shady business dealings, and disrespect.
Now to zero-sum it...black people could've decided that the lynchings didn't matter. That because the lynchings were relatively rare occurrences, that they should focus on getting their own house in order.
In fact we can take the explicit violence out of it, and instead focus on the civil rights movement. At the time that Rosa Parks decided not to get out of her seat, black illegitimacy rates were extremely high (in comparison to their white counterparts). And some argued that this (among other things) was proof that blacks weren't ready for citizenship.
Instead of focusing on Jim Crow, these folks argued, blacks needed to get their own house in order.
We can look at the two examples with the benefit of hindsight and say that it would have been utterly foolish for black people to "get their own house" in order rather than fighting against state terrorism.
Why can't we make the same claim now?
I guess it's only human nature to pass judgment. A white man breaks down in a poor black neighborhood, how many people in that neighborhood will help out that white man? How many will see an opportunity to take advantage of the white man because he bears the color of a race of people that oppress the black people? A police officer shoots a helpless black man and kills him. Did he intend to shoot him with his gun? Did he carry and intend to shoot him with a taser? All we saw was a movie without sound. Should we pass judgment on that alone? Those that say yes can understand why a black person gets pulled over and white people do not.
My thoughts and prayers go out to the family of Oscar Grant. I hope that this opens the eyes of many young men that they should stay home and take care of their family and not be out bringing attention to themselves by fighting or other means. It’s a dangerous world. Hug your children as often as you can and tell them you love them. Your chances of survival increase by living a life that avoids trouble and bad people.
3 things:
1. Anger when cops shoot & often kill black men.
2. Anger when black males are killed by other black males, at a very high rate.
3. "Stop snitchin'".
1 & 2 are both justfied, of course. They don't cancel one another out, justify one another, moderate one another. They are independent.
But 3 is a deadly influence.
What is does is give black males shooting black males a pass. It IS a cultural attitude. It IS in hip hop and rap songs. It has the effect of protecting thugs at the expense of the community. It in effect supports murder and murderers. Rage at the cops for (1) is used to justify (3). More can be done to challenge 'Stop snitchin''.
Ta-Nehisicoates is correct. The idea that blacks are indifferent
to black on black crime is just another media hoax designed
to sell white moral superiority to those whom they regard
as their average consumer. Oaklanders have participated
in candle light vigils, ralleys,forums, conferences, panels,
church meetings, secular meetings, poetry readings,etc.
to protest the murders of young black men. The shootouts
that have occurred in my neighborhood are turf wars over
the distribution of drugs. The drastic rise in black on
black crime began in 1984 when several agencies on
the government looked the other way as their death
squad allies brought crack into the inner city. It's hard
to get a word in at the New York Times where this entertainment
began. Since the Jason Blair scandal the editors favor black
opinion that leans to the right. What I call tough love entrepreneurs. Ishmael Reed
A cop kills us, we burn OUR homes, cars and businesses. We kill us and we go silent. These are victims of Drive by killings by others Blacks.
This is a video posted on youtube.
If a black cop (or any cop) shot a white thug punk ganster from my white community, I'd buy him a beer.