The disease, which struck Europe in the Middle Ages killing more than 25 million people, has swept through a training camp for insurgents in Algeria.I don't celebrate death. But I can't say I'm mourning for people who died from the plague while studying how to infect people with the plague. I know I should be more empathetic but, I just don't have it this time, folks.The arrival of the plague was discovered when security forces found the body of a dead terrorist by a roadside, the Sun reports.
The victim belonged to the large al-Qaeda network AQLIM (al-Qaeda in the Land of the Islamic Maghreb).
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Via Chris Bodenner, stupid is as stupid does:
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terrifying dumbasses. If that even needs to be said.... there's still no cure for plague, and AFAIK no one knows why it hasn't swept around the world again, and their being dumb could be just as deadly as their using plauge the way they intended it. I hope those involved know their sterile technique and quarantine procedures really, really well...
Um, I think you got the compassion level just right. And I'm a bleeding heart.
oops, I'm wrong and it is curable. So good to be wrong about....
bread & roses, only until the antibiotic-resistant strains evolve from FUCKING IDIOTS PLAYING AROUND WITH THEM. Ugh.
Unfortunately, the morons could still infect a lot of innocent people. But, for the idiots responsible, serves them right.
Y'all need practice thinking about stuff like this:
1) This isn't the most credible report I've ever seen about a nasty illness appearing amongst our enemies in a fairly remote place: it may be true, but the Sun report is decidedly sensationalist:
2) Still, IF there was an outbreak of bubonic plague, it WOULD be in a place like this, and yet;
3) I remember the mujahideen in Afghanistan around 1985 claiming that there was smallpox under the Soviet occupation -- which would have been a VERY big deal, was just as plausible as the plague in Algeria, but there was nothing to it, and yet
4) The REALLY scary thing isn't that these guys caught the plague naturally and could spread it by accident, but that they were deliberately infected and PLAN to spread it, presumably starting in Europe where access and distribution would be easiest.
Play with fire...
I completely agree about the level of compassion, TNC, but where does it say that they were developing an infectious agent, instead of just happening to be bitten by fleas?
I'm originally from Southern California, and plague cases are not at all unheard-of in the desert southwest. The difference is that we know how to treat it.
Am I missing something?
If this is true, it also makes you wonder how many of these evil bastards have been felled by gangreene (sic?), TB, polio, or a host of other maladies rarely seen in more civilized areas.
Of couse, as karmically pleasing as this may be, everyone here is right when they allude to the fact that it could also be a situation that could devolve into a public health catastrophe. It would be a bitter irony indeed if al Qeada and its cronies were able to do more damage by way of idiocy than malice. No such thing as free karma, I guess.
I'm with elmo. I don't see anything in the original article to suggest that this was a bioweapons lab of some kind, as opposed to a natural outbreak of the disease among a group of people living close together in the desert in presumably unsanitary conditions.
To echo some others the report that they were making the virus is dubious at best. I won't cry any tears for the terrorists getting struck down by this plague but it does worry me that now all they would have to do is buy a ticket on any airplane to be a martyr and bring death home to us. No bombs or anything else needed when you think about it. So more than anything else the report makes me more than a little bit nervous about what might happen next.
It sounds too good to be true --assuming it doesn't leave the confines of al-Qaeda. Also, if they were tinkering with the virus to fuck with us and got it they will become very serious contenders for the Darwin Awards of 2009.
Am I the only person who reads this and immediately wonders how it is that they have bubonic plague? And then gets a little worried that al-Qaeda has bubonic plague?
I would encourage you to consider the original source of this "news story," The Sun.
A quick scan of the Sun story shows that it's all based on anonymous "security sources."
The original story is here: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2146286.ece
I think this story smells fishy.
Sounds bogus to me as well.
The reservoirs of plague in the wild are colonies of burrowing rodents. The disease is transmitted from them to humans by fleas.
Samples of the bubonic plague would be very easy to get. It is carried by fleas in a lot of places. Its endemic to half the US actually, but proper sanitation and medical treatment make it pretty rare.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvbid/plague/qa.htm
Which is probably why its not such a great disease for bioweapon use, since people can only spread the disease to others once they have symptoms, so it would be fairly easy to contain.
On a related note, never touch a prairie dog.
As Elmo, Roac, and Toxic said--don't mess with isolated desert rodent colonies. (The tiny fraction of the time they're carrying plague or greater percentage they're carrying hantovirus.)
I remember an Atlantic article from a few years back about terrorists and WMDs. The general consensus was that no one would mess around with high virulent diseases because they were too hard to control; too easy to end up taking out everyone.
But
The chilling counterpoint in the article is that for some people, hitting the "reset" button might look like a good option. Yes, this virus is going to kill 1/3rd of the people on the planet, but maybe I'll be in the 2/3rd that live, and maybe in the world made new I'll be the one who comes out on top.
Spooky thought.
WTF.
Al Qaeda has the PLAGUE?? How the FUCK did they get the plague?
My terror level is orange-level right now, not gonna lie.
Small note guys, the plague is caused by bacteria, not viruses. That's why it can be treated with antibiotics.
The original newspaper which drafted the report is only a few grades above National Enquirer, and level with New York Post (and share an owner in Rupert Murdoch).
In the 1980s it had stories about people with Aids deliberately bleeding into drinks in pubs to infect 'innocent' people.
So unless there's a real verification, not merely a newspaper saying "another newspaper said this", I wouldn't get too stressed.
PS T - sorry, the comment on the last post wasn't meant mean-spirited, but it came across as such. Ironic, given the Lowery nonsense.
Wouldn't the possibility of such a bio-weapons attack place universal healthcare under the umbrella of national security?
I read The Sun article and came away with the impression that these guys got bit by fleas and that it was Al Qaeda bosses who were afraid of the plague being spread to their other terrorist training camps. No, I did not feel the least bit sorry for these guys. If they want to live in the Middle Ages, then let them deal with diseases the same way too.
I read The Sun article and came away with the impression that these guys got bit by fleas and that it was Al Qaeda bosses who were afraid of the plague being spread to their other terrorist training camps. No, I did not feel the least bit sorry for these guys. If they want to live in the Middle Ages, then let them deal with diseases in the same way too.
You're all wrong.
This is the Hand of God reaching down and smacking the fuck out of these evil bastards with an extended middle finger.
Who needs Jack Bauer now?
I recall an interview I saw with a former Soviet Bio Weapons researcher. Pretty chilling stuff. He said that the Russians had considered weaponizing Plague, but decided it would not be effective enough against US troops. Apparently, many or most people of European decent already have a high degree of resistance or immunity to the Plague bacillus, since our ancestors who were not resistant died off.
They went with weaponizing Anthrax.
@celticdragon
Don't forget trying to make a hybrid of Ebola and smallpox! They didn't think small out at Biopreparat.
i think the pentagon & al quaeda can both agree:
when dealing with the plague & anthrax be very, very careful
it might turn around and bite you in the ass
I think it's an honestly very interesting moral question:
Why should you feel more empathetic?
Bill Mill, I have a question: if you don't feel empathetic, is there a moral question? Aren't empathy and morals kind of a chicken/egg thing?
The current psychobabble consensus is that feelings are neither good nor bad: they're just feelings. Doesn't that apply to empathy?
"Unfortunately, the morons could still infect a lot of innocent people." Jennifer
TR: If this is for real that would be my concern. I believe Algeria is currently better off than much of Africa, but it could still be a health threat for many people.
Lemmy,
I don't quite see how your question relates to mine?
But anyway, here's a constructive proof that morals are not dependent on empathy: Person X believes that whatever actions will make humanity as a whole more productive are morally correct.
Well, good, now we've dispatched the first question! Morals can exist without empathy.
Your second question seems to be, "is empathy value-free", to which I ask "in what moral system"? In some it is, in others its not.
Why do you ask?
I heard Ta-Nehisi on NPR on Obama Day. When he expressed concerns about being biracial in middle America, I had the same feeling when my dear friends, a black and white couple with two kids, left L.A. for the aforementioned uncharted territory. I was afraid I'd be hearing about crosses burning on their lawn, but things have been very cool. Their kids participate in everything and they have, as always, made a zillion new friends. I think the latter may be an answer, maybe to a lot of things. They are both smart and attractive but best of all, they're open and friendly and fun to know. More people of all colors should try it.
What form of plague did they have? If it's bubonic, then that's spread by fleas and does not pass from person to person directly. It's also easily treatable (and generally easily recognized). Even in the Midle Ages there was a decent survival rate.
Pneumonic plague is another story. It's airborne (same bacteria by the way) and so can spread rapidly from person to person. Also, its symptoms mimic a lot of other respiratory diseases, and so are not easily recognized. And effective treatment must begin before the symptoms manifest. Untreated, it's invariably fatal.
As others have noted, there's no mention of an attempt weaponize BP. You need to post a correction.
This sort of thing is inevitable when you've got food stores in a remote area. Animals come for the food, warmth and relative safety from predators and stick around. So do any diseases they're carrying. Native American tribes in the Southwest still have to deal with hantavirus, which is a relative of the Black Death.
This is all a very long-winded way of saying "Meh, shit happens."
Ta-Nahesi, get a frakking (BSG hat-tip here) clue:
These people were medievalists who think that people like you are jumped up slaves and Obama is an apostate who has betrayed Islam. They were trying to find ways to kill us.
You may not celebrate their somewhat untimely death, but I sure as hell do.
Of course, I'm a Republican.
This story smells. I haven't seen a single reputable news source pick it up, and the World Health Org., which presumably would be on the case, has no mention of it.
Until you see it at who.int., or in the MSM (yes, they're good for something), be very, very sceptical.
Also, plague is considered endemic in the Congo, and has had recent outbreaks in Algeria, so it's not completely nuts that there would be a natural outbreak anyway.
http://www.who.int/csr/disease/plague/readiness2005_1_11/en/
I have gone from being skeptical about this story to being totally convinced that it is bogus. Mostly for the reason stated by Erika.
BTW, hantavirus and the plague are not closely related. One is a virus, the other is a bacterium. They just happen to be transmitted by similar mechanisms.
Meh, if they're actually trying to weaponize the plague, this is about par for the course--assuming this isn't a natural outbreak.
In any case, even they are trying, I'm not the least bit worried about it. It's way more likely to kill them, biological agents are notoriously difficult to weaponize effectively, requiring resources that a terrorist cell in the desert just won't have access to, and for the plague it's treatable. Way more downside potential for them than for us. I'd much rather them use scarce resources on this than planning another attack in the US.
I'm much more worried about a conventional fertilizer bomb attack on any number of chemical plants. It would do way more damage, and be much easier to carry off.
This guy (linked on Sullivan's blog) thinks it's just an exaggerated rumor. He's usually pretty sober about these sorts of things. -sv
"Al Qaeda has the PLAGUE?? How the FUCK did they get the plague?"
1) It's endemic to that region. That's the reservoir and that's where it breaks out from when it does break out. They got the plague by going to live there.
2) No one knows why it breaks out when it does. It's random.
3) BUBONIC plague is a poor, poor wepaon. PNEUMONIC plague is the form you weaponize. Bubonic plague spreads much more slowly than the pneumonic form.
4) It's not even really certain now that plague was what hit Europe because the epidemiological pattern of spread was different from what has been observed in other verified plague outbreaks. Yet the symptoms observed back seven centuries ago are in fact plague symptoms. Big puzzle.
5) The Sun is a rag, on the level of the National Inquirer. So consider the source.
maybe giving our side too much credit, but i read it and thought immediately of smallpox blanket gifts for indians
My only real reaction was "well, even if they want out, they're not going to be surrendering to us."
Re: It's not even really certain now that plague was what hit Europe because the epidemiological pattern of spread was different from what has been observed in other verified plague outbreaks. Yet the symptoms observed back seven centuries ago are in fact plague symptoms. Big puzzle.
I don't think it's that puzzling. The population was already weakened by hunger (the Little Ice Age had just begun) and in some places, by war. Plus, people lived insanely packed together, humans and animals both. So of course the epidemological patterns will be rather different than what you'd find in the modern world.
Large odor of fish here. I can't help but remember that this is the same group entity that copied an article called "How to Build an Atom Bomb" from the Journal of Irreproducible Results.