Though he needs to get some credit for Tampa's ring, Dungy's clubs underachieved there, as they have at times in Indy. He seems like a likable guy in a profession with a high percentage of unlikable personalities, but his take on Desperate HousewifeGate and religious leanings are unfortunate.
1. I see you have some really high standards for HOF, TNC. Dang. I think he's in, maybe even first ballot.
2. ed, as a Bucs fan Ive had too many arguments about Dungy to count. If Dungy underachieved, so has Mike Holmgren, so has Bill Cowher, so has Andy Reid and so has Jon Gruden. And I guess the only coaches we can say didnt underachieve would be Bill Belichick and Mike Shanahan, and some people accuse Shanahan of underachieving as well.
Facts are, in the FA era, its almost impossible to repeat as champions or even make repeat appearances in a 5-10 year period. Show me the coach who has not only made the playoffs years consecutively but made numerous Superbowl appearances since free agency, and then tell me about Dungy underachieving.
3. I doubt Dungy returns to the NFL. If he gets the coaching bug, he will probably be a Div I NCAA coach where he can shape and guide young men, which I suspect was one of his favorite parts of the NFL HC gig.
He's a definite HOF'er. The superbowl aside he put together 6 12 win or more seasons in a row which is a first. 10 consecutive post seasons and one the highest winning percentages for a coach with one team. The others on that list are hall of famers. He's going in for sure.
Dungy sure deserves a spot in the homophobe Hall of Fame.
As for football, he's a major underachiever who let another man (Gruden) win a Super Bowl with his team. Ain't that like another man having a baby with your wife!?!!?
How do you measure underachieving? Only having one losing record in 6 seasons for a historically moribund franchise? Going to the NFC championship game with a rookie QB at the helm? Dungy performed miracles here in Tampa and if you don't believe me just look at the wild swings in records by Gruden here since Tony has left. Hell has Gruden won a playoff game since winning the SB?
Anyway Dungy is a lock. His records are too strong and he has a ring. And no he won't be coming back. He has a lot of other things he wants to do none of them involving coaching or commentating. He still lives down here in tampa and I believe he will ramping up his prison outreach ministry as well as helping Derrick Brooks with the school he founded here. I hate to see him retire because of the impact he has had not only on football but also on the communities where he has coached.
Dungy deserves the shot for homophobia. Fair enough.
He also deserved to see his team win with another "man" as you snarkily put it, because of his loyalty to putrid incompetent offensive assistants. He put his neck on the line for Mike Shula, almost lost his job over it, was pushed to hire Les Steckel who turned in arguably the best Bucs offense of the last decade-plus, fired him and replaced him for Clyde Christensen, who cost Dungy his job.
If he hires Bruce Arians or Cam Cameron over Christensen, the Bucs maybe have two superbowl appearances if not rings outright and the Colts era never happens.
He's no HOFer. At least he shouldn't be. The bar is high for coaches, as it should be, and he's no Shula or Walsh (most modern guys). And amongst his comtemporaies He's definitely behind the Tuna and Belicheck, probably behind Jimmy Johnson.
I'd put him in the league of the Shanahan, Cowher, Holmgren's. Hall of good.
Being the first black SB coach aint worth much in terms of votes I don't think. Being an early architect of the Tampa Two is, but the Tampa two is no west coast offense...
I think he'll be back. As it is, he's probably in the HOF (6 straight years with 12 wins or more? 10 straight playoff years? 12 straight years .500 or better? Insanity.)
I do want to congratulate my man, Rickey Henderson, for being elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame. A well deserved thank you and congratulations from all the Oakland A's fans out there.
Ok, now back to Football,
Dungy is a lock. His record and Super Bowl alone should be enough to get him in. But he is really well liked and well respected around the league.
Lovie Smith (Superbowl appearance)
Mike Tomlin (Potential Superbowl appearance)
Herm Edwards
Jim Caldwell (his replacement)
Rod Marinelli (not so good this one)
Even Leslie Frazier, a DC and former asst of his is doing the rounds for HC gigs. The Tampa 2 is all over the league.
If the only coaches of the modern era deserving of a spot in the last 30-40 years are Shula, Walsh, Tuna and Belichick, with a maybe for Jimmy Johnson then I guess you could knock Dungy. I think more than four coaches in 40 years deserve to be in the HOF myself, but hey...
I'm getting old. Goddamn, it feels yesterday when Dungee started with the Bucs. Of course he's going in. Same with LT. I just forgot how long he's been rolling.
Les Steckel was frikkin horrible. He was fired long before the season was over just nobody knew it. In the middle of the season Dungy pretty much told him if he didn't get better he was going to take the play calls from him and many times after that he effectively did.
Now your overall point is spot on. Tony was a little to loyal to cats who didn't deserve it but in all actuality if you look up the year that Shula got fired the offense was getting better and we won the NFC North and went to the NFC championship game all while having 3 different QBs start during the year. Now Shula will never be confused for Don Coryell but he was doing better that year.
That the Glazers wanted to fire the whole offensive staff while they were in Hawaii to coach the pro bowl says a lot about them as owners and that Tony put his job on the line for them says a lot about him as a person.
As for Clyde, he fooled Dungy at the Pro Bowl when he called the plays because Steckel had already been let go. But the truth was Christiansen literally chocked to the point of paralysis late in games Tony's last year in Tampa. If the game was tight at the end, Brad Johnson ended up having to call his own plays. That is not a joke at all and one day a book will come out about it. But we still ended up going to the playoffs that year only to lose to the Eagles.
Mind you behind the scenes the Glazers had already offered the job to Parcells before that playoff game was even played and Keyshawn was broadcasting it all over the locker room. Thats another story that will come out one day.
I say all that to say once again that Tony was working some miracles down here to still have the team winning with all of those distractions. Thats why I say he is a lock.
TNC, you're old enough to remember what a joke Tampa had been for almost it's entire history before Dungy showed up. That turn around alone is enough for the HOF in my opinion.
Dungy will be missed, and it stinks that he had to go out on such a sour note. The Colts had that game vs. the Chargers--all they had to do was make a first down out of 2nd and 5, and they could've run out the clock. But Addai goes nowhere, then the ORT misses an assignment on 3rd down and we have to punt out of the end zone. Special teams awfulness plus the overtime coin flip do us in from there.
Dungy's decent playing career will help him in the HoF balloting--the voters tend to favor coaching candidates who've put in time as players, too. He might not be a first-ballot Hall of Famer, but he'll get in someday. And deservedly so--just an unbelievable coach, who concocted one of the most widely imitated defensive schemes of the past 30 years.
This year was really a testament to Dungy's prowess. The Colts had no right going 12-4 this year--they dealt with a zillion injuries from Day One, with their starting center, strong safety, middle linebacker, and tight end all missing significant playing time. The Colts ability to dig deep and find contributors in the rounds and beyond the draft never ceases to amaze me. That's in part a tribute to Polian's eye for talent, but even more so to Dungy's system.
No one knows what to expect from Caldwell. But I'll tell you this: #88 ain't gonna be part of the new era. I wouldn't mind drafting Maclin out of Missouri and letting him be Wayne's understudy for a few years. Or maybe, just maybe, kicking over some of the Harrison savings to T.J. Houshmandzadeh, who (I believe) is a UFA.
Dungy's teams were beat by the Packers who went on to win the ship, the Rams in the NFC championship game in a game that went to the wire the year the Rams won the ship, and two times to the Eagles who went on to the NFC championship both times, in the playoffs. Which time were the Bucs superior on paper to any of those teams?
My man, agree almost totally but the thing about Steckel is he had the best red zone offense the Bucs have ever seen, even including under Gruden. Now teams werent breaking their necks rushing to hire him when Dungy canned him but he was still the best OC the Bucs have had--including Gruden--in the last decade plus, the stats bear this out.
Thats scary what you said about Christensen choking at the end of games though. I was hugely pissed at St. Tony when he passed up Arians and Cam Cameron (can you imagine if he had paired up with that D?!?) for his boy Christensen, the former QB coach for Dilfer, which says it all about his coaching abilities.
Yeah, sorry but I have to smack Dungy for his obscene homophobia, the man gets all this credit for being a nice guy, but he has hate in his heart.
And yes, he is a major underachiever, this is a guy who was a defensive specialist and most years his defense left Peyton Manning out to dry.
As to Dungy putting his neck out for bad assistants in Tampa, I don't see how that is a plus in his favor. His job is to hire the right guys, not keep around people who can't do the job.
But in the end, yeah, I'm a hater, Dungy will be in the Hall of Fame I imagine. Full deserving? Only if you think Bill Cower is a Hall of Fame coach, which I certainly don't. Bill Cower is as some other wise person said "Hall of Good" but not "Hall of Great". (Getting your ring by beating the Seahawks practically deserves an asterisks).
We keep having these HOF debates, as if we're talking about the baseball HOF, which actually has some standards (Rice is undeserving, btw. Dick Allen and Ron Santo were FAR better players).
I dunno, it just feels like the bar for head coach should be set really high--like QB's and RB's, there are so many of them in there and it feels like anybody with any amount of longevity just builds up enough goodwill that it's a lock. What kills me is that it's likely deserved with the winning percentage, the ring, innovating the cover-2 and his coaching tree, but he's likely going to make it on being a "good guy" and "faithful." That's all you're gonna hear about and it's a shame. On the other hand you have his never getting over the offensive hump in Tampa and many underachieving playoff teams in Indy, but what can you do.
He was around forever, he built elite defenses, he built elete offenses, he has a championship and his players love him. What else is there for a head coach? And I do weigh the first black head coach to win a SB thing heavily--it's not like he's the first black geneticist or first black web developer, he's the first black man to win a championship doing a job men were excluded from for their race for years.
Bill Simmons is pretty hit or miss with me. But did anyone read his article last Friday when he said Jennifer Anniston looks like Tony Dungy? I still don't see it, but I about spit out my coffee.
I don't know about Dungy. If he gets in, then so do all those other guys that Green mentioned. I'm not sure where that leaves him. I'm gonna have to go take a look at the list of coaches in the HOF. I think being the first black HC to win a Super Bowl probably puts him over the top.
I doubt Dungy has hate in his heart. I think he is a devoted Christian and the faith has some growing up to do in the 21st Century, but the only thing that makes Dungy deserve a smack as far as that is concerned, is what makes Barack maybe deserve one--standing with religious homophobes even if not actually espousing their beliefs.
As for your contention that his D left Manning out to dry--prove it. Youre just talking yang right now with no basis or backing.
Dungy served up MANY competitive defenses for Peyton. Peyton's problem is audibling out of too many runs, and a team that abandons the run in the playoffs is punching their own ticket home...as Carolina and NY have proven so far.
Edge James should have had at least one Superbowl ring if not for Peyton, who refused to let Edge take over games (like vs the Pats) that he was in my view ready to take over. They replace Edge with Addai in 05 and put the offense on his back and what happens? Ring!!!!
Edge may get his chance at one if he takes care of business this Sunday though.
Here is what led to Dungy hiring Clyde. First he didn't want to get rid of Shula because Shaun King had done pretty well under him as a rookie and Dungy didn't want him having to learn a new offense. So then Dungy really wanted to hire the OC for the Rams Al Saunders but the Glazers didn't want to pay him. So Les Steckel basically made a pitch for the job at a time when other good OCs were turning Tony down. They clicked because of their faith based backgrounds. But then when Les came in he was all over the place. He tried to change game plans from week to week. And we never had any bread and butter plays so to speak. I don't know if you remember this but Sapp went on record calling Steckel out in the middle of that year. It was right after Steckel called a triple reverse to Keyshawn's slow ass on 3rd and 1 at a crucial point in a game. I can't remember which one but when it comes to me I will let you know. After that Dungy kinda went off on Sapp in front of the team for doing the interview but he also said we were going back to our old bread and butter plays: Iso, Power O and "Tampa Pass" where you sneak the fullback into the flat. Thats the play that Alstott made famous. So after that happened the redzone offense picked up and we went on a run. But we still lost to the Eagles in the playoffs when it was all said and done.
I know that none of this has ever really come out but trust me its all true. The redzone efficiency didn't come from Steckel, it came from Dungy
he's clearly an HOFer. The fact that he's won a superbowl get him in the discussion. The fact that he's had multiple playoff runs makes it a no brainer. Career record 136-75-0, One super bowl ring however he built the Tampa Team that won Super Bowl the year after he left. I'll had that Gruiden knew every play Bill Calahan was going to run (See the interview with Ronday Barber sp). While his post-season record leaves little to be desired I'd say if Marty ShotenHiemr(sp) is getting in then Dungy is getting in. Let's not forget he was a decent player as well. Also Belichick struggled in Cleveland
Can someone more knowledgeable than me please explain to me how Tony Dungy invented the Cover 2?
Because I played D Back in high school, and playing Cover 2 has been around for along time - if we're talking playing with 2 safeties over the top.
Now, clearly I'm missing something, right? What's so special about Dungy's Tampa 2 defense? Was it really something he invented? Or just something his teams did well and helped popularize in the Pros?
I'm not saying those defenses weren't good, they were. I'm just curious as to why Tampa 2 was so innovative, when to these layman eyes it seems like people have been playing that defense for years before Dungy started coaching.
You're a tough grader. The way I see it dude is in, no doubt. Indy only one it all once, but they had a pretty impressive regular season run, led by TD.
Are you guys serious? there's no way he's a lock. his teams have consistently underachieved in the playoffs and most of the time he's been in Indy the D has been the team's achillies heel.
I mean really, How many coaches from this era do you guys expect to get in?
He's definitely behind Parcells and Belicheck. Shanahan won two Superbowls. Holmgren and Cowher both appeared in several superbowls and won one. Jimmy Johnsonwon two superbowls and recieves a lot of fthe credit for the third.
Dungy has one superbowl, and a bunch of first round exits. That is ultimately the measure of a coach, not regular season victories. I mean maybe he gets in because people like him, but on what he did between the lines alone he is suspect at best and definitely not a first balloter as some have suggested.
Its obviously not fair to say that Manning is the real coach of the Colts. But I don't think its crazy to assume that there are a lot of coaches that could have matched Dungy's run in Indy due to having Manning at QB.
I remember all of that except the dirt about the Glazers not wanting to pay Saunders (unbelievable--Im hearing people question whether or not they are now refusing to use all the cap space Allen cleared because their true interests lie with using the Bucs as a cash anchor for their Man U investment. Just passing along gossip here.)
I agree about our lack of bread and butter plays that year, but maybe that unpredictability is what made the team's red zone production so tough to stop? Anyway, fair points but I suspect our insider talk about a bucs team from pre-9/11 is boring everyone ha ha ha
Also Dungy's ring as a player with the Steelers definitely adds weight to his HOF bid.
[blockquote]If the only coaches of the modern era deserving of a spot in the last 30-40 years are Shula, Walsh, Tuna and Belichick, with a maybe for Jimmy Johnson then I guess you could knock Dungy.[/blockquote]The 30-40 year window includes Chuck Noll, whose career began in 1969, exactly 40 years ago.
Coaching standards are difficult to gauge; a few old timers are in by virtue of their association with the league's inception. Four NFL championships or three Superbowls guarantees hall of fame inception.
In the modern era, that means Noll, Belichick, Gibbs, and Walsh.
A tier below that, there are the coaches who make it on the sheer magnitude of their careers: Landry, Parcells. Worth mentioning that both coaches won two championships. Knocking on the door here is Mike Shanahan. Bill Cowher's record is nearly as impressive as Shanahan's, but he's short one title.
Below that, you have to think about who [i]isn't[/i] in. Tom Flores (two superbowls) and John Madden (one title and the best W-L% in the modern era) aren't. Hard to make the case for Johnson without Flores or Dungy without Madden.
"the first coach in league history to reach the postseason in 10 consecutive seasons and the only coach to preside over six straight seasons of 12 wins or more."
I forgot to end the story. So Dungy needed a new offensive coordinator but he didn't want King to have to learn another new system so he allowed Clyde to call the plays for the pro bowl. Mind you the pro bowl team of course was stocked with a helluva lot more talent than we had and the Defenses were just going through the motions, still Clyde had them put up like 40 points so Dungy thought he could just slide Clyde in there and keep some continuity and he and Clyde are tight on faith based issues also. So that began the debacle of that last year. I should point out that he ended up taking Clyde with him to Indy as well as the TE Coach Ricky Thomas but he left everybody else behind as he should have.
The reason Tony is credited with Tampa Two is because he took a regular cov 2 defense while D Coordinator with the Vikings and added some new twists to it that helped shore up some of the problems you used to have with the defense. For one when you play regular cover 2 the middle linebacker just sinks back a few yards which leaves the deep alleys between the safeties wide open.
So Dungy came up with the concept of having the Middle Backer cover that dead area with pattern reads either looking up the number 3 receiver or covering the seam route. Also in Tampa Two the Weak side backer has some ability to free lance and not just drop to a spot if he doesn't have a threat. That means he will have the opportunity to jump a lot of short crossing routes ala Derrick Brooks the year he won DPOY. There are also some technical things he did with alignment and patern reading on the parts of the corners that is way to technical and I don't want everybody pissed at me again.
But shorter me, regular cov 2 is dropping to a zone or a spot, tampa two is more pattern reading and reacting.
"Holmgren and Cowher both appeared in several superbowls and won one."
Oh please. They appeared in exactly one more Superbowl than Dungy--and lost. Hardly several.
"most of the time he's been in Indy the D has been the team's achillies heel."
Again I challenge you to back this up--defensive performances were never the Colts' problem in December and January. An anemic run game that allowed defenses to key on Manning and Harrison, that was the true culprit. And thats on Manning.
This is a great debate. Dungy's HOF work--for my money--was really on that Bucs team. Anyone who watched football in the 80s remember how terrible they were for, like, years. Dungy did not simply turn around that team, he turned around the franchise.
As for the D being the Achilles heel, that's might be true except for in one season--the season Indy won the Super Bowl. It's true they weren't very good during the regular season, but no one who saw that playoff run thinks Indy's O carried it for them. It was their D that did it that year.
And look up how many cats on that Defense were actually drafted by Indy. The reason they have lagged behind on D a bit is because they rarely get to keep their best players because there is so much money spend on offense. That creates a situation where the Defense is perpetually one of the youngest in the NFL and they have to change some starters every year.
But check it they were number 3 in defense last year and have been in the top 11 five out of his seven years in Indy. One of the two times they weren't was the Superbowl year. So the "they can't play defense" meme definitely FAILS
2003 - 41-10 win over Broncos (great D), 38-31 win over Broncos (bad D), 14-24 loss to Belichick's Patriots (decent D, 24 pts aint crazy)
2004 - 49-24 win over Broncos (decent D, again, esp in a blowout), 3-20 loss to Pats (decent D)
2005 - 18-21 loss to Steelers (decent D)
2006 - 23-8 win over KC Chiefs (excellent D), 15-6 win over Ravens (excellent D), 38-34 win over Pats (awful D), 29-17 win over Bears (solid D)
2007 - 24-28 loss to Chargers (decent D)
2008 - 17-23 loss to Chargers (decent D)
So where again was this horrible D that cheated Manning out of multiple rings? Unless giving up 24 points is the measure of bad, and not merely average, defense, the argument holds zero water.
1) He turned a moribund joke of a franchise into a winner. Way to go, Colts! No, wait...
2) He turned the Tampa Bay Bucs from annual losers to annual winners. He had one losing season: his first (1996). After that his worst season was .500 (8-8 in 2000).
3) Even one Super Bowl ring gets you a look-see for HoF as a coach.
3a) The first African-American HC with a Super Bowl ring gets you a whole wing in the Hall.
4) He made Warren Sapp useful on-field.
5) He kept Derrick Brooks at OLB instead of converting him to Safety like all the scouts insisted. He made Derrick Brooks the best pass-protection Linebacker in history. When Brooks gets into the Hall himself - and he's a near lock as you can get outside of Ray Lewis at LB - Dungy deserves at least 60 percent of the credit.
6) He demonstrated that great coaches didn't have to rely on temper tantrums every other minute to keep players motivated.
7) 6 straight seasons of 10-plus wins. In this day and age of Free Agency attrition, a draft system that punishes winning teams with lower picks, and scheduling parity, that is unheard of.
8) How many Head Coaches and assistant Coaches in the league have him on their resumes? How many HCs came from his coaching system? Admittedly, half of them aren't that good, but then again how many Bill Walsh acolytes are/were good? Dungy's coaching legacy can be measured by how many learned from him to become HC's in their own right.
9) His overall football career as a player for the Steelers (led the defense in INTs in 1978, a Super Bowl team) + his years of assistant work paying his dues + his HC career = Hall of Fame.
I bet Dungy gets bored and comes back....though could be to college, as somebody suggested; I wouldn't mind, since I watch much more college than pro ball - the players are having far more fun.
Hall of Fame? For doing what, exactly? Underachieving with quality players? (Juba: the Colts were defensive patsies.) Had Dungy been white, he never would have held a job as long as he did.
John Madden was inducted in the Hall of Fame in 2006.
Sometimes it's just useful to use Google and not just rant from memory!
Still, a tough standard - Madden had to wait quite a while before induction. The one inductee who lowers the bar is Marv Levy. Four AFC titles is nice but no championships and his record is about on par with Cowher, Shanahan, et al.
As far as Dungy being the first AA coach to win a Superbowl, Tom Flores was the first minority coach to win a Superbowl (and he won two). Didn't help him much. Flores might get George Seiferted out of the HOF..
You are correct that their surface numbers are pretty comparable, once you account for ballparks and eras. I should have said Santo is "more deserving."
The difference is in position: Santo's career OPS+ (an imperfect but fair/fast metric) is better than every HOF 3b except Schmidt, Matthews, Brett, Killebrew, Boggs, and Home Run Baker. He also won 5 consecutive gold gloves.
Rice's OPS+ ranks about 50th of the (now) 66 OFs in the Hall - and the guys he beats are mostly dead-ball guys, or exceptional cases like Yount (SS), Ashburn (defense and announcing), or Brock (steals). Rice was a butcher in the OF.
I should've just mentioned Tim Raines, who is clearly superior to Rice.
10 consecutive playoff appearances will keep you an NFL HC as long as you wanna be. Heck, the Tampa Bay coaching job alone was enough to keep him on short lists for the rest of his career.
You are either football ignorant, racially ignorant, just plain ignorant or maybe all three.
@Juba
Holmgren went to three Superbowls- 2 in GB one in Seattle.
Cowher went to one more Superbowl, but also went to four AFC championships.
That's the real knock, to many times Dungy was one and done in the playoffs. 9-10 playoff record.
Cowher is 12-9, Holmgren is 13-11.
I can't look up the stats, right this minute (help anyone?) but for years the Colts' D was weak. Even the year they won the SB the D was bad most of the regualar season but they got it together in the playoffs like TNC said. That year and the year after, if my memory serves me were the years that their D was best (the Bob sanders years)
Given that Dungy's coached (and played) throughout the league and reportedly left overwhelmingly positive impressions everywhere he's gone, I think he's developed a reputation that will, along with his ridiculous level of success, get him into the HoF. His record tops Marv Levy's.
well if they pulled it together for the playoffs, they werent the factor holding the Colts back, right?
If the argument is regular season, seven consecutive 12-4 or higher seasons is bulletproof.
If the argument is playoff underachievement, then the D pulling it together as you say eliminates them as a suspect in the accusation of underachievement, no?
"The difference is in position: Santo's career OPS+ (an imperfect but fair/fast metric) is better than every HOF 3b except Schmidt, Matthews, Brett, Killebrew, Boggs, and Home Run Baker. He also won 5 consecutive gold gloves."
That's a pretty valid argument. The Hall does seem to be especially stingy when it comes to 3rd Basemen. As a rabid Cards fan, I kind of feel the need to root against him, but you're probably right. His resume as a 3rd basemen is pretty strong.
Rice does have an MVP and five top-5 MVP finishes. Just saying...
Ron Santo was a MUCH better player than Jim Rice? I don't think the numbers back you up on that one.
Santo was a very good third baseman, Rice a mediocre to poor corner outfielder. It's fair to say Santo was a much better PLAYER, in the same way Brooks Robinson was a much better player than
Lou Piniella.
As for Dungy, close call. I think the closest comp to his career, structually, is Tom Coughlin. Both coached for two teams over 13 years, building something out of nothing in the first job (Jacksonville had BY FAR the best five year record of any expansion team) and winning a Super Bowl with the second team (with a Manning, no less!) Obviously Dungy's record is quite a bit better than Coughlin's, but then again Coughlin has the wrong Manning. So, you're left with basically a rich man's Coughlin. I think I'd vote no on Dungy, but am open to persuasion.
Juba:
Another way to lok at those playoff number that I think is telling:
one and done: 6 times!
1-1: 3 times.
multiple wins in the playoffs: only twice out of 11 tries.
listen I like Dungy and I repsect what he's done as a coach as well as a mentor and I think he should more credit than he does for building what ultimately became Gruden SB. So Im not trying to really hate on the guy, he was a really good coach and will get consideration for the hall. But he's not a lock. there's other enough other guys out there with as good or better numbers than him that he will (or at least should) have to wait a good while before he gets in, if ever.
Oh I personally blame him and Peyton for the all ticky tacky "illegal contact" penalties we see these days. Belicheck straight out coached Dungy those first couple of playoff matchups and they changed the rules (i.e. emphasized) to stop it...
Dungy went to the playoffs 11 times. He was one and done 5 times two of which in Tampa in his last two years. He also went to an NFC championship game with Tampa and two AFC championship games winning one and winning a Superbowl.
Look at it this way, in 11 seasons the guy has all of one losing season. One. Find me another coach with THAT kind of record and I will bet he is in the Hall of Fame if he even exists.
Jim Rice was a borderline hall of fame candidate, but the bar has to be set somewhere. I don't mind his induction at all.
in his favor: peak value, black ink, played for a premier franchise (NYY, BOS, LAD, CHC), power hitter.
against him: short career, defense, GIDP rate, home field, virulent opposition to "dated" metrics by some vested statheads.
Tim Raines still has a shot, but a lot of his value was tied in rate numbers which tend not to excite HOF voters. If statheads want someone to rail against, pick Andre Dawson, whose case is much weaker than Rice's was.
"played for a premier franchise (NYY, BOS, LAD, CHC),"
Two problems with this. One, playing for a premier franchise SHOULDN'T be relevant towards your HOF credentials. Two, you didn't include the St. Louis Cardinals. By far the 2nd most successful franchise behind the New York Yankees. And yes, I'm fully aware that STL is not a first rate city.
That's my last baseball post. I can imagine TNC ready to strike down...
Two problems with this. One, playing for a premier franchise SHOULDN'T be relevant towards your HOF credentials.
Shouldn't, but does. I'm not talking about on-the-field success. I'm talking about fame, presumably a qualifier for the hall of fame. All else being equal, playing in one of those four markets magnifies your case for the hall of fame. Twenty years ago, the four franchises would have been different and frankly, STL would have displaced BOS. But times are different.
"Look at it this way, in 11 seasons the guy has all of one losing season. One. Find me another coach with THAT kind of record and I will bet he is in the Hall of Fame if he even exists."
And that one losing season was his FIRST as a HC with a Tampa Bay team so bad that for two decades, everyone from Hollywood to hip-hop used them as a punchline for Bad Sports Team, any sport, any league.
SG: Madden had winning records all 10 seasons and one ring. He has the best record of any 100-win coach (by far, I think). Levy's a good measuring stick, but not Madden.
What's probably more important is to think of the other recently retired coaches who'll be competing with Dungy. Not too many coaches are allowed in so he might have to wait awhile.
TNC's gotta cut us some slack for being off-topic, Stacy. You can't start an NFL HOF thread on the day the baseball HOF announces members, and not expect some cross-talk. :)
Rice's peak was great, but that's all there was to his career, really. I prefer Evans to Rice for the HOF. Dawson's practially criminal, but it blows my mind that Raines' vote totals went DOWN this year, while Rice's went up. When you consider that the BBWAA voting membership is presumably getting younger and more stat-sophisticated, that result boggles the mind.
To get us back on topic, sortof: Ken Anderson for Canton!!!
Though he needs to get some credit for Tampa's ring, Dungy's clubs underachieved there,
but now you are saying
Losing to Norv in the Playoffs.
Unfortunately for you the only time Dungy faced Norv Turner in the playoffs as the coach of the Bucs he beat him in a very exciting game here in Tampa. A game which if I remember correctly led to Norv getting fired.
"Had Dungy been white, he never would have held a job as long as he did."
Miande, If he had been white he would have gotten a Head coaching job about 5 years before he did, and with a better team than the shitshow he inherited in Tampa.
10 straight playoff years, 1.5 super bowls (gotta give some credit for the Bucs win). In his era only Shanahan and Belichick are superior.
A decent coaching tree and Tampa 2 are also good points, while I give more credit for the Tampa 2 to Monte Kiffin, though.
As an aside, I wrote for the college paper at USF, and I had an impromptu interview with him at an event on campus, a talk given by neurosurgeon Ben Carson for Black Emphasis month (blah!). He didn't really need to give me any time, but sat with me for 10 minutes to talk about the event and his time in Tampa. Incredibly generous with his time and told me to send a link to the story to his agent, and he sent me a short email later to thank me for talking.
Dungy is #11 in win percentage, and #18 in total wins.
The only one who is NOT on that list, with a higher percentage - and enough games - is George Allen.
Those with higher wins and not on the list -
Curly Lambeau
Marty Shottenheimer (who will probably go at some point)
Dan Reeves
Chuck Knox
Bill Parcells (who will definitely go at some point)
Mike Holmgren (30 more games, less of a win percentage - and will probably go)
Steve Owen
Bill Cohwer
Again, almost all of which have less of a win-loss percentage record. And, at least 4 that are active, that will probably go.
So you have a good argument for Tony Dungy, in my opinion. Especially given the teams he coached, how he turned Tampa Bay around, and then, also turned Indianopolis into a premiere team throughout the aughts.
I wrote that mostly for a mild gag. Your point is a good one, but then again, Dungy beats Norv on a botched snap. Pretty weak.
I think Dungy's essentially Marty Schottenheimer--and I mean this as a high complement--with what he did creating the Tampa team and at Indy. (And now that I think about it, had Marty stayed in DC for a few more years--as he should have--the 'Skins would be on much more solid footing, if not wearing another ring.)
Dungy in, by winning a lot, including a Super Bowl. His record should be enough, but for those on the edge, do not underestimate being the first black head coach to win a Super Bowl. It as a legitimate consideration when you look at the history (and often today's reality) of the sport.
As for Rice, good for him. It looks like Dawson has a chance get there. For more than a decade he was always in the conversation about the best player in the game. Don't let the stats fool you - he could do everything including great defense that looked easy (at least until the knees went). Raines deserves more respect - 2nd best leadoff man ever, behind Rickey.
Juba said “I think he is a devoted Christian….--standing with religious homophobes even if not actually espousing their beliefs.”
That’s what drives me nuts about Dungy – the claim he’s some sort of faithful Christian deserving of all sorts of veneration. Dungy himself – as a reflection of that much heralded modesty – forever proclaims himself Christ’s disciple on earth. Faith, family, work is the ethos he claims to live by. And its time to call BS on that.
He is the head coach of an NFL team in the 21st century. Read the Bible, pay particular attention to the actual words spoken by Jesus Christ. Start with the Sermons on the Mount. Tell me how any NFL head coach can be said to live by those words? You don’t have success in the league without taking men who have left their health on the field for you and tossing them aside the day they no longer have what it takes. Christ would be so proud.
For all the scorn heaped on Bill Belichick I think he deserves our praise for this: he is the most brutally honest head coach in the NFL. Any one of them would do whatever it takes to win; Belichick makes no claim to the contrary and is forever pilloried in the press for that. Meanwhile, Dungy, who is as brutal an assessor of talent as Belichick any day of the week – is presented as Coach Mother Theresa.
As for the family side of the equation, no one who chooses a profession where 100 hour weeks are the norm from August – January and 60 hour weeks the norm from February - July can claim to put family ahead of work. It’s nice he has a clause in his contract enabling him to see his kid’s games but what does it tell you that his chosen profession makes such a clause necessary?
Every time I hear him posited as an example of what a parent should be I cringe. Any night of the week in any town in America you can find parents who have put family ahead of promotion potential running Scout troops, sports programs, great books seminars, and a myriad of other activities. How about holding those parents up as examples?
And honestly, my view of the Dungy’s as a family is this: it should be no ones business what decisions they’ve made and how they’ve chosen to split their parental duties. If what they do works for them, fine. However, as soon as Tony Dungy walks to the pulpit or dais – as he so often does – and at least tacitly accepts the accolades and implications that he should serve as a role model for the rest of us – it becomes perfectly fair and reasonable to ask just what decisions he has made and whether or not others should follow suit.
You literally have no fucking idea what you are talking about. You have a vision of what YOU think Tony Dungy should be with out even knowing the facts about the man you are villifying. He doesn't work like some other Coaches that put in the 100 hour weeks not only because he wants to see his family but also because he wants his coaches to have the chance to do the same. And what makes your diatribe particularly galling is that the man has been criticized for doing that. His kids when they were little were ALWAYS around the facility which you never see with Head football coaches or hell for that matter attorneys, garbage men, nor insurance agents. You act like every man that cares abou this family works 30 hours a week or less and takes them to boy scouts. Man I could go on and on but the next time you want to cast aspersions on someone that you don't know at least try to do some fucking research on them first.
Calm down, sgwhite. It's not like YOU know Tony Dungy, either. I know you think you own TNC's comments section and you're the chief TEC (Troll Enforcement Officer) here, but now you're acting like a troll.
People are allowed to disagree with you over Tony Dungy without being subjected to your silly f-bombs. Grow up, dude.
PS - The son of Perfect Tony still ended up killing himself. Maybe not all was perfect in paradise.
Given that Marv Levy is in the Hall, doesn't that mean not just Dungy (and Belichick and Parcells, obviously) get in but also:
Mike Shanahan
Jimmy Johnson
Bill Cowher
Mike Holmgren
Dick Vermeil
Dan Reeves (4 super bowl losses, just like ole Marv)
Where is the line? If Philly wins the Super Bowl this year, is Andy Reid a HOFer?
I think Dungy's a no brainer, but I'd put all those guys in over Marv. Shanahan would be an interesting debate but I say no way to the others as of now, although Cowher and Holmgren could very well come back and add to their resumes.
I was a skeptic on Dungy in terms of him deserving to be in the HOF when this thread started. I pretty much figure he will be because he is very well-liked, and right there at the line in terms of the merits.
But having listened to all the arguments, I still gotta say no. Because I'm not putting Mike Shanahan in, and he's got one more Super Bowl win than Dungy. I say no to Bill Cowher, Mike Holmgren & Dan Reeves as well. Jimmy Johnson & Dick Vermeil go in, in my book. I can see the arguments against those guys, too, but they stand up to questioning IMO.
I don't buy that Dungy deserves that much credit for Tampa winning the Super Bowl, when the fact is Dungy never won shit with Tampa. Never even played in a Super Bowl. You simply can't give Dungy that much credit for Tampa's Super Bowl win, when the fact is it was Gruden who brought him the ring. For my money, you can stack Gruden today up against Dungy and they have the same record of success. And Gruden ain't Hall of Fame, not today. Dungy has exactly as many Super Bowl victories as Gruden and Tom Coughlin, who as someone pointed out earlier, who also has just as much experience and real success as Dungy, and with Eli instead of Peyton.
There is a strong case to be made that Tony Dungy has coached some of the more disappointing teams in recent memory. Dungy had one good year in the playoffs in Tampa, and other than that was disappointing. In Indy, they were good enough to win 3 Super Bowls, 4 if you count this year's club, which was probably the favorite before they lost to a weak San Diego team for the second year in a row. How many years did the Colts start off smoking hot, only to burn out in the big moments? Shouldn't this have been an All-Time great team? Wans't Manning/Harrison/James every bit the equal of the Cowboys trio?
I see Dungy as being a very good coach who gets bonus points from the press for being a super nice guy, which by all accounts he is. And when he gets in over Couglin and Gruden and these other guys with similar records, I gotta believe it's because of this bias the press has towards the man. Dungy is like the anti-Barry Bonds.
Dungy gets some credit for not being a yelling jackass like Parcells (easily the most overrated coach, I believe) and others. I'm not sure whether being a homophobic ass completely cancels it out for me, but it definitely will not for the HOF crowd.
Not sure if Dungy makes it to the HOF, but I hope he does, if for nothing else because he is such a class act. I find it amusing that those who judge him as a hateful homophobe express the very same hate they accuse him of. Dungy is a devout Christian. Like or not, the Bible is very clear about homosexuality. It seems that gay people who expect others to be tolerant of their lifestyle choices yet refuse to be tolerant of those who don't see things their way.
Getting back to football, I don't see how anyone can disagree with the fact that Gruden's SB win came with Dungy's team. Another thing to consider, is that with the exception of this year, Dungy's Colts have come within 2 wins fo the SB every year fir the last 7 years. This year is the first year in the last 8 that the Colts did not win their division. To get a team, year after year, for nearly a decade in a position to contend for the SB takes something special and to do this in the era of free agency takes something really special.
Yeah, russd, that is pretty curious about homosexuals. You ever notice how black people want you to be tolerant of them being black, yet at the same time, aren't tolerant of a bigot's right to hate them. That's kind of amusing in the same way...
Rice has no business at all being in the Hall of Fame. His career numbers weren't that great, and frankly his overall offensive numbers (measured by adjusted OPS) were nothing special, either, on the HOF scale. He's a guy that was a very poor fielder, so he's only in on the basis of his bat, and yet his overall offensive numbers compare unfavorably to almost every other outfielder in the Hall.
Any voter who voted for Rice but not for Dale Murphy should have their voting status taken away, since Murphy was superior in every single way to Rice. Better hitter, better fielder, slightly better career numbers, 2 MVPs to one, more successful teams, decent base stealer for a while. And having said that, I don't think Dale Murphy deserves to be in the hall, either. But I challenge anyone to come up with any justification whatsover for putting Rice in the Hall and not Murphy.
And don't get me started on Santo, who does deserve admission to the hall. He's killed because he played in very down offensive era, and people have the mistaken impression that 3B is a big power position like 1B, as opposed to a primarilly fielding position like SS.
He is the head coach of an NFL team in the 21st century. Read the Bible, pay particular attention to the actual words spoken by Jesus Christ. Start with the Sermons on the Mount.
Please Bob, explain how the Sermon on the Mount conflicts with being an NFL coach.
i was under the impression that Dungy was a shoe-in on stats alone, never mind the legion of people involved with football who gush about his exemplary character, or his obvious trailblazing.
I saw John Clayton on Mike and Mike this morning, and he doesn't think that Dungy is going to get in. Not sure how much his opinion is worth, but he obviously really likes Dungy. He said he was 'going to miss him.'
The poster is correct: the Bible is very clear about homosexuality. But you know what I think says more about homosexuiality than what Paul said or what was in Leviticus? The fact that Jesus himself, in his 30 odd years on earth, is not quoted as saying ANYTHING AT ALL ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY.
Now we know there were queers back then, otherwise there would have been no condemnation. And we know Jesus' opinions on rich men, hypocrites, etc. But not a single bleeping word about queers?
Maybe Jesus had no beef with them. Maybe he thought they fell into the "he who is without sin cast the first stone" catagory. Maybe he thought their sin was not monumental compared to the other sins he saw going on around him. But the fact remains that the man who the religion "Christianity" is named after never said a word about homosexuality or homosexuals. Silence speaks volumes.
Spgwhiteinfla: you literally have no idea what the word literally means. But thanks for sharing your brilliant insights nonetheless.
dwhite10701 “explain how the Sermon on the Mount conflicts with being an NFL coach.” What’s with you people and literalism? I said “start with” meaning it makes for a good introduction to Christ’s beliefs. Jesus of Nazareth was clearly calling for a world in which we all acted as brothers and sisters to one another – one big family – every man, woman and child helping every man, woman and child.
But hey, if you need that literal conflict, how about this from the Sermon on the Mount: “So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.”
Thanks for your good work in years past, thanks for playing through the pain that comes with numerous surgeries, compressed vertebra, concussions, etc, but now that you’ve lost 2 tenths of a second on your 40 yard dash your services are no longer needed.
There is nothing Christian about the personnel decisions made every season by every head coach in the NFL.
As an NFL head coach he is incapable of treating others as he would wish to be treated himself. Unless being cast aside with a battered and broken body – and loosing your livelihood in the process – once you are no longer able to perform at an absurdly high level is how you hope to be treated. As I have never had any reason to believe Dungy to be a masochist I’m gonna go out on a limb and say he doesn’t want to be treated that way.
No coach in the modern era has as many 12 win seasons as Dungy without having manipulated players, making them play through serious injuries, kicking them to the curb when no longer 100%, threatening and/or trades (and think for a minute about trades and families – middle of the school year and you’re sent 2000 miles away – do you pull your kids out of one school and move them to another or do you go without your family?).
My point wasn’t to denigrate Dungy. He’s damn good at what he does. His family situation should be a personal issue off-limits to the rest of us but he crossed that line and made the personal public long ago.
You see people put Dungy on a pedestal and it makes you seethe and smirk and look for reasons to knock him down. Maybe you dont feel so good about your selves and this is what you need to do to put down your chronic insecurities?
Juba: Is there any charge for your penetrating Freudian insights?
I speak for no one but myself, and as far as my "hate" goes all I've done is praise the mans work, say frankly I think he's done fine as a father and husband, but just drawn a line at the notion that he should be held up as a role model for the rest of us. You need to back off your celebrity worship and realize that all that amounts to is a reasonable assessment. You may agree or disagree, but I don't hate the man in way, shape or form.
"As I have never had any reason to believe Dungy to be a masochist I’m gonna go out on a limb and say he doesn’t want to be treated that way."
Dungy played in the fucking league. Your point is a silly one. I think Chrisianity is silly, but by your rationale, no true Christian could be a boss. At any profession. Get serious.
There is nothing Christian about the personnel decisions made every season by every head coach in the NFL. As an NFL head coach he is incapable of treating others as he would wish to be treated himself. Unless being cast aside with a battered and broken body – and loosing your livelihood in the process – once you are no longer able to perform at an absurdly high level is how you hope to be treated. As I have never had any reason to believe Dungy to be a masochist I’m gonna go out on a limb and say he doesn’t want to be treated that way.
I'm sorry, but this is just stupid. Players are fully aware that they won't be playing indefinitely. They'll play until they can't contribute, then they'll be gone. Just like every other athlete. If it's unchristian to say "since you're unable to play at the high level necessary for this league, so we're letting you go," then it would be unchristian to fire anyone for any job that they're unable to do.
Considering that Dungy was a player, he surely knows more than you or me about how players want to be treated. And considering that Dungy was voted as the coach players would most like to play for, I doubt players have any problems with how he treats them. (It's also worth noting that four of the top five coaches in that poll come from the Dungy coaching tree.)
So what do players want from a coach? According to that poll, the the most desirable attributes in a head coach were good communication skills, followed by motivational skills, approachability, management skills and leading by example.
It seems like standards are down to the point where you win a Superbowl and go to the playoffs a few times, and you're a HOF. For my money, the only two HOF coaches at this point are Belichick and maybe Shanahan.
Kurt Warner, another Christian hero football player, sure did act "silly" when he was benched with the Rams and threw a major media freak-out temper tantrum. But hey, I must have imagined that because players know what to expect and only expect good communication skills. And frankly if you wanna talk about what's stupid – pretending that "your time in the 40 has gone from 4.6 to 4.7 (ie you could still perform your job in a perfectly adequate manner, just not quite as well as last year) so your services are no longer needed" is comparable to the way any boss treats any worker is about as stupid as it gets.
"….then it would be unchristian to fire anyone for any job that they're unable to do."
Do you honestly not see a HUGE difference between not firing the 63 yo employee who now occasionally forgets things vs. cutting someone for a 1 or 2 tenths of a second drop in speed?
The NFL is a brutal, cut throat, dog eat dog world. There is NOTHING Christian about it.
And that’s perfectly ok. The NFL doesn’t exist to spread Christianity.
Dungy could have made a career of coaching high school football. All kids who try play but only the best start, a reasonable work week, help young people find their way – you know, all those things Jesus Christ actually talked about.
I really don't get this bizarre celebrity worship. How dare I say anything bad about Tony Dungy? Look, he's a human being who makes human decisions, but one of those decisions was to spend his career in one of the most ruthless jobs in one of the most violent sports in the country.
How that jibes with following the teachings of a communitarian pacifist is beyond me.
Guess that’s more proof of my stupidity.
All you bible beaters who love to say that it's okay for Tony Dungy to be a bigot because the bible says so...how do you deal with the fact that the bible says you should be stoned to death or whatever if you work on the Sabbath?
Tony Dungy has been working on Sunday's for his entire life. Put him to death!
Look, Dungy is a bigot, and if it's gonna cost Rick Warren points on the "good guy" scale, it certainly should cost Dungy. But a lot of the same people who go after Warren won't touch Dungy, because he's a role model.
Brings up a lot of tough questions, none of which really have anything to do with football, except that Dungy's football rep is based at least in part on being a good guy, which I guess he is, unless you're gay, which by any measure you've got to believe at least a handful of his players were.
On the football side, is everyone who is giving Dungy so much credit for winning a Super Bowl in Tampa gonna give Grady Little credit for winning a World Series in Boston? Or Jim Mora for turning Indy into a winner? Yes, he had one bad season that got him fired, but turned a 3-13 team into a 13-3 team that went 10-6 the next year. Dungy never went no 13-3 in Tampa. So I guess Jim Mora deserves credit for those great Colt teams...
One last point on St. Tony of Indy and how "Dungy played in the fucking league. Your point is a silly one."
To this day Dick Butkus refuses to say anything about George Halas because his hatred of Halas is so deep. Why? Wtf did George Halas do? Only this; he treated Dick Butkus the way any NFL coach - to include St. Tony - treats any player; as a disposible commodity.
You really need to follow post playing days careers if your gonna spout off about what players believe, expect etc.
You're a fool, Bob. I'm not talking about Dick Butkus. And who gives a flying fuck about how he feels about George Halas. Maybe Butkus was the asshole. Maybe Butkus couldn't deal with the fact that he didn't have it anymore. No one forced anybody to play.
Frankly, I don't really like Tony Dungy, but to suggest you can't be a "good Christian" because you're an NFL head coach is beyond stupid.
"Kurt Warner, another Christian hero football player, sure did act "silly" when he was benched with the Rams and threw a major media freak-out temper tantrum."
Correction: Brenda Warner threw a media freak-out temper tantrum.
Stacy: I never said you can't be a good Christian and an NFL head coach. I said you can not apply Christian principles to the management of an NFL team.
Correction to your correction: Kurt Warner most certainly did throw a temper tantrum.
And as for Butkus, I used him as an example of of literally hundreds of bitter ex players. You sound like someone who has no real clue about the culture of the NFL. If it's a news flash to you that there are hundreds - if not thousands - of bitter, angry ex-players you know nothing about the game.
"No one forced anybody to play." That is - without exception - the dumbest argument used. I know, those coddled, millionaire players.
Christ, the stoopid - it hurts.
Correction to your correction to my correction: Uh, no he didn't. But I guess that depends on your definition of 'temper tantrum.'
Of course there are literally hundres of bitter ex players. However, you sound like the one who has no clue about the culture of the NFL. The players have beef with the player's union. That is well documented. That's why they had Gene Upshaw killed. And sure, of course there are players who don't like their old coaches, but that is not where crippled players' issues are.
But it is true. Players are well compensated for ruining their bodies. And blaming an ex-coach for it is weak.
The point still remains that it doesn't matter if former players hate their former coaches. I hate my former coach, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's an asshole. Maybe I'm the asshole,(probably) maybe Dick Butkus is the asshole. You sound as though you have some serious issues. Is Conrad Dobler your father?
Bob, the leaps of logic you make here are astounding. A player (who played 40 years ago) hates a coach (who was an asshole according to most accounts), so that someone says something about Dungy?
Maybe if you could come up with one or two players who actually played for Dungy who are bitter towards him, your point would have a shred of merit.
Have a look at what Shaun King says about Dungy. And note that he says Dungy cut him in Indy when he thinks he deserved to be on the team. Doesn't look like bitterness to me.
“It’s unbelievable,” [Shaun] King said. “The way he allowed me to have my opportunity to realize my dream and when you look at me, and this speaks louder than anything I can say, here’s a guy who cut me in Indianapolis for a team I deserved to be on and a tear just welled up [thinking about him].”
You see people put Dungy on a pedestal and it makes you seethe and smirk and look for reasons to knock him down. Maybe you dont feel so good about your selves and this is what you need to do to put down your chronic insecurities?"
I don't hate Dungy. I think he's a great coach who deserves to make the HOF. I just don't think the sun shines out of his ass because he goes to church a lot.
And the fact is that he's not just an anti-gay bigot - he's an anti-gay bigot who used his celebrity to give his hatred a big platform. That's a serious character flaw.
You dont hate Dungy but you suggest he neglected his family and drove his son to suicide?
@ Bob
Celebrity worship is one thing--saying he's a Hypo-Christian because he broke the Golden Rule by cutting players from the team is a whole nother realm of overreaction. Frankly that may be the most childish opinion Ive ever heard expressed about football, and Ive heard many.
But you guys dont hate Dungy. Ok. Sure.
Hey guys, Im looking to buy a bridge, got any on sale?
trying to cut through the bull here...i see some interesting points made, but it's starting to smell of trolls here...
i don't think anybody's arguing that Dungy's religion makes him HOF-material...or that it even makes him a good human being. He should be judged for the HOF regardless of his christianity AND homophobia.
I like to believe that regardless of sport (NFL, soccer, MMA, cricket, ballet, squardancing etc.), the game is set up so that the best talent gets to the top. That inadvertedly means that there needs to be a bottom. simply put, the number of players who actually "make it" is a fraction of those who try out, regardless of sport. That's the nature of the game. And EVERYONE knows this. Players, coaches, managers, owners, groundskeepers and toiletseat-cleaners.
if they didn't they will sooner or later realize it. Dungy knew that when he signed on the dotted line, and his players knew that when they tried out too. Now there are ALOT of issues with compensation and terms for both players that need adressing, but that shouldn't have any baring on the judgment of the players and coaches of today.
Here's a piece no one cared about. Meh, whatever, probably the most enjoyable article I did during my stint at TIME. Premiered a month before I got laid-off. The nail in the coffin? Ya think?
Here's me going after Al. I didn't so much have a problem with him, as I had a problem with media acting like this dude was the go-to guy for everything black.
This was my first real story at time. I was writing for the Business section, a real change of direction for me. At any rate, it's about Wal-Mart's attempts to colonize the inner-city. As much as I enjoyed this piece, I mostly enjoyed going out to Chicago, which is a beautiful, beautiful city.
This a piece I did about the cops just outside our nation capitol, in Prince George's County, a few years back. I wanted to offer a counter to the dumb, conventional wisdom that if you paint your police force black, you could eradicate police brutality. In fact, Prince George's--one of the richest, blackest counties in the country--also had one of the most brutal police force's in the country.
The Beautiful Struggle: A Father, Two Sons, and an Unlikely Road to Manhood 
I think being the first black coach to win a Super Bowl should get you in the Hall of Fame!
Though he needs to get some credit for Tampa's ring, Dungy's clubs underachieved there, as they have at times in Indy. He seems like a likable guy in a profession with a high percentage of unlikable personalities, but his take on Desperate HousewifeGate and religious leanings are unfortunate.
He's in. That string of 12 win seasons will be hard to deny. And it's not like he sucked in Tampa Bay, so he's not just a lucky by-product of Manning.
I hate the C*lts. The only thing that can make me dislike them more is hiring that douchebag Mike Shanahan.
1. I see you have some really high standards for HOF, TNC. Dang. I think he's in, maybe even first ballot.
2. ed, as a Bucs fan Ive had too many arguments about Dungy to count. If Dungy underachieved, so has Mike Holmgren, so has Bill Cowher, so has Andy Reid and so has Jon Gruden. And I guess the only coaches we can say didnt underachieve would be Bill Belichick and Mike Shanahan, and some people accuse Shanahan of underachieving as well.
Facts are, in the FA era, its almost impossible to repeat as champions or even make repeat appearances in a 5-10 year period. Show me the coach who has not only made the playoffs years consecutively but made numerous Superbowl appearances since free agency, and then tell me about Dungy underachieving.
3. I doubt Dungy returns to the NFL. If he gets the coaching bug, he will probably be a Div I NCAA coach where he can shape and guide young men, which I suspect was one of his favorite parts of the NFL HC gig.
He's a definite HOF'er. The superbowl aside he put together 6 12 win or more seasons in a row which is a first. 10 consecutive post seasons and one the highest winning percentages for a coach with one team. The others on that list are hall of famers. He's going in for sure.
Dungy sure deserves a spot in the homophobe Hall of Fame.
As for football, he's a major underachiever who let another man (Gruden) win a Super Bowl with his team. Ain't that like another man having a baby with your wife!?!!?
ed
How do you measure underachieving? Only having one losing record in 6 seasons for a historically moribund franchise? Going to the NFC championship game with a rookie QB at the helm? Dungy performed miracles here in Tampa and if you don't believe me just look at the wild swings in records by Gruden here since Tony has left. Hell has Gruden won a playoff game since winning the SB?
Anyway Dungy is a lock. His records are too strong and he has a ring. And no he won't be coming back. He has a lot of other things he wants to do none of them involving coaching or commentating. He still lives down here in tampa and I believe he will ramping up his prison outreach ministry as well as helping Derrick Brooks with the school he founded here. I hate to see him retire because of the impact he has had not only on football but also on the communities where he has coached.
Foulness,
Dungy deserves the shot for homophobia. Fair enough.
He also deserved to see his team win with another "man" as you snarkily put it, because of his loyalty to putrid incompetent offensive assistants. He put his neck on the line for Mike Shula, almost lost his job over it, was pushed to hire Les Steckel who turned in arguably the best Bucs offense of the last decade-plus, fired him and replaced him for Clyde Christensen, who cost Dungy his job.
If he hires Bruce Arians or Cam Cameron over Christensen, the Bucs maybe have two superbowl appearances if not rings outright and the Colts era never happens.
He's no HOFer. At least he shouldn't be. The bar is high for coaches, as it should be, and he's no Shula or Walsh (most modern guys). And amongst his comtemporaies He's definitely behind the Tuna and Belicheck, probably behind Jimmy Johnson.
I'd put him in the league of the Shanahan, Cowher, Holmgren's. Hall of good.
Being the first black SB coach aint worth much in terms of votes I don't think. Being an early architect of the Tampa Two is, but the Tampa two is no west coast offense...
I think he'll be back. As it is, he's probably in the HOF (6 straight years with 12 wins or more? 10 straight playoff years? 12 straight years .500 or better? Insanity.)
Off topic,
I do want to congratulate my man, Rickey Henderson, for being elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame. A well deserved thank you and congratulations from all the Oakland A's fans out there.
Ok, now back to Football,
Dungy is a lock. His record and Super Bowl alone should be enough to get him in. But he is really well liked and well respected around the league.
I assume it's a coincidence this post is right on top of the one about black homophobia....
Tampa Two is no West Coast Offense?
Really?
Dungy Coaching Tree
Lovie Smith (Superbowl appearance)
Mike Tomlin (Potential Superbowl appearance)
Herm Edwards
Jim Caldwell (his replacement)
Rod Marinelli (not so good this one)
Even Leslie Frazier, a DC and former asst of his is doing the rounds for HC gigs. The Tampa 2 is all over the league.
If the only coaches of the modern era deserving of a spot in the last 30-40 years are Shula, Walsh, Tuna and Belichick, with a maybe for Jimmy Johnson then I guess you could knock Dungy. I think more than four coaches in 40 years deserve to be in the HOF myself, but hey...
sg,
underachieving = getting upset by far inferior teams in the playoffs almost every year...
Guys,
I'm getting old. Goddamn, it feels yesterday when Dungee started with the Bucs. Of course he's going in. Same with LT. I just forgot how long he's been rolling.
Juba
Les Steckel was frikkin horrible. He was fired long before the season was over just nobody knew it. In the middle of the season Dungy pretty much told him if he didn't get better he was going to take the play calls from him and many times after that he effectively did.
Now your overall point is spot on. Tony was a little to loyal to cats who didn't deserve it but in all actuality if you look up the year that Shula got fired the offense was getting better and we won the NFC North and went to the NFC championship game all while having 3 different QBs start during the year. Now Shula will never be confused for Don Coryell but he was doing better that year.
That the Glazers wanted to fire the whole offensive staff while they were in Hawaii to coach the pro bowl says a lot about them as owners and that Tony put his job on the line for them says a lot about him as a person.
As for Clyde, he fooled Dungy at the Pro Bowl when he called the plays because Steckel had already been let go. But the truth was Christiansen literally chocked to the point of paralysis late in games Tony's last year in Tampa. If the game was tight at the end, Brad Johnson ended up having to call his own plays. That is not a joke at all and one day a book will come out about it. But we still ended up going to the playoffs that year only to lose to the Eagles.
Mind you behind the scenes the Glazers had already offered the job to Parcells before that playoff game was even played and Keyshawn was broadcasting it all over the locker room. Thats another story that will come out one day.
I say all that to say once again that Tony was working some miracles down here to still have the team winning with all of those distractions. Thats why I say he is a lock.
TNC, you're old enough to remember what a joke Tampa had been for almost it's entire history before Dungy showed up. That turn around alone is enough for the HOF in my opinion.
Dungy will be missed, and it stinks that he had to go out on such a sour note. The Colts had that game vs. the Chargers--all they had to do was make a first down out of 2nd and 5, and they could've run out the clock. But Addai goes nowhere, then the ORT misses an assignment on 3rd down and we have to punt out of the end zone. Special teams awfulness plus the overtime coin flip do us in from there.
Dungy's decent playing career will help him in the HoF balloting--the voters tend to favor coaching candidates who've put in time as players, too. He might not be a first-ballot Hall of Famer, but he'll get in someday. And deservedly so--just an unbelievable coach, who concocted one of the most widely imitated defensive schemes of the past 30 years.
This year was really a testament to Dungy's prowess. The Colts had no right going 12-4 this year--they dealt with a zillion injuries from Day One, with their starting center, strong safety, middle linebacker, and tight end all missing significant playing time. The Colts ability to dig deep and find contributors in the rounds and beyond the draft never ceases to amaze me. That's in part a tribute to Polian's eye for talent, but even more so to Dungy's system.
No one knows what to expect from Caldwell. But I'll tell you this: #88 ain't gonna be part of the new era. I wouldn't mind drafting Maclin out of Missouri and letting him be Wayne's understudy for a few years. Or maybe, just maybe, kicking over some of the Harrison savings to T.J. Houshmandzadeh, who (I believe) is a UFA.
eric k
Dungy's teams were beat by the Packers who went on to win the ship, the Rams in the NFC championship game in a game that went to the wire the year the Rams won the ship, and two times to the Eagles who went on to the NFC championship both times, in the playoffs. Which time were the Bucs superior on paper to any of those teams?
SGWhite aka home team,
My man, agree almost totally but the thing about Steckel is he had the best red zone offense the Bucs have ever seen, even including under Gruden. Now teams werent breaking their necks rushing to hire him when Dungy canned him but he was still the best OC the Bucs have had--including Gruden--in the last decade plus, the stats bear this out.
Thats scary what you said about Christensen choking at the end of games though. I was hugely pissed at St. Tony when he passed up Arians and Cam Cameron (can you imagine if he had paired up with that D?!?) for his boy Christensen, the former QB coach for Dilfer, which says it all about his coaching abilities.
Yeah, sorry but I have to smack Dungy for his obscene homophobia, the man gets all this credit for being a nice guy, but he has hate in his heart.
And yes, he is a major underachiever, this is a guy who was a defensive specialist and most years his defense left Peyton Manning out to dry.
As to Dungy putting his neck out for bad assistants in Tampa, I don't see how that is a plus in his favor. His job is to hire the right guys, not keep around people who can't do the job.
But in the end, yeah, I'm a hater, Dungy will be in the Hall of Fame I imagine. Full deserving? Only if you think Bill Cower is a Hall of Fame coach, which I certainly don't. Bill Cower is as some other wise person said "Hall of Good" but not "Hall of Great". (Getting your ring by beating the Seahawks practically deserves an asterisks).
We keep having these HOF debates, as if we're talking about the baseball HOF, which actually has some standards (Rice is undeserving, btw. Dick Allen and Ron Santo were FAR better players).
I dunno, it just feels like the bar for head coach should be set really high--like QB's and RB's, there are so many of them in there and it feels like anybody with any amount of longevity just builds up enough goodwill that it's a lock. What kills me is that it's likely deserved with the winning percentage, the ring, innovating the cover-2 and his coaching tree, but he's likely going to make it on being a "good guy" and "faithful." That's all you're gonna hear about and it's a shame. On the other hand you have his never getting over the offensive hump in Tampa and many underachieving playoff teams in Indy, but what can you do.
He was around forever, he built elite defenses, he built elete offenses, he has a championship and his players love him. What else is there for a head coach? And I do weigh the first black head coach to win a SB thing heavily--it's not like he's the first black geneticist or first black web developer, he's the first black man to win a championship doing a job men were excluded from for their race for years.
Bill Simmons is pretty hit or miss with me. But did anyone read his article last Friday when he said Jennifer Anniston looks like Tony Dungy? I still don't see it, but I about spit out my coffee.
I don't know about Dungy. If he gets in, then so do all those other guys that Green mentioned. I'm not sure where that leaves him. I'm gonna have to go take a look at the list of coaches in the HOF. I think being the first black HC to win a Super Bowl probably puts him over the top.
Foulness,
I doubt Dungy has hate in his heart. I think he is a devoted Christian and the faith has some growing up to do in the 21st Century, but the only thing that makes Dungy deserve a smack as far as that is concerned, is what makes Barack maybe deserve one--standing with religious homophobes even if not actually espousing their beliefs.
As for your contention that his D left Manning out to dry--prove it. Youre just talking yang right now with no basis or backing.
Dungy served up MANY competitive defenses for Peyton. Peyton's problem is audibling out of too many runs, and a team that abandons the run in the playoffs is punching their own ticket home...as Carolina and NY have proven so far.
Edge James should have had at least one Superbowl ring if not for Peyton, who refused to let Edge take over games (like vs the Pats) that he was in my view ready to take over. They replace Edge with Addai in 05 and put the offense on his back and what happens? Ring!!!!
Edge may get his chance at one if he takes care of business this Sunday though.
Ron Santo was a MUCH better player than Jim Rice? I don't think the numbers back you up on that one.
Juba
Here is what led to Dungy hiring Clyde. First he didn't want to get rid of Shula because Shaun King had done pretty well under him as a rookie and Dungy didn't want him having to learn a new offense. So then Dungy really wanted to hire the OC for the Rams Al Saunders but the Glazers didn't want to pay him. So Les Steckel basically made a pitch for the job at a time when other good OCs were turning Tony down. They clicked because of their faith based backgrounds. But then when Les came in he was all over the place. He tried to change game plans from week to week. And we never had any bread and butter plays so to speak. I don't know if you remember this but Sapp went on record calling Steckel out in the middle of that year. It was right after Steckel called a triple reverse to Keyshawn's slow ass on 3rd and 1 at a crucial point in a game. I can't remember which one but when it comes to me I will let you know. After that Dungy kinda went off on Sapp in front of the team for doing the interview but he also said we were going back to our old bread and butter plays: Iso, Power O and "Tampa Pass" where you sneak the fullback into the flat. Thats the play that Alstott made famous. So after that happened the redzone offense picked up and we went on a run. But we still lost to the Eagles in the playoffs when it was all said and done.
I know that none of this has ever really come out but trust me its all true. The redzone efficiency didn't come from Steckel, it came from Dungy
he's clearly an HOFer. The fact that he's won a superbowl get him in the discussion. The fact that he's had multiple playoff runs makes it a no brainer. Career record 136-75-0, One super bowl ring however he built the Tampa Team that won Super Bowl the year after he left. I'll had that Gruiden knew every play Bill Calahan was going to run (See the interview with Ronday Barber sp). While his post-season record leaves little to be desired I'd say if Marty ShotenHiemr(sp) is getting in then Dungy is getting in. Let's not forget he was a decent player as well. Also Belichick struggled in Cleveland
Brendan,
People are already saying it doesnt matter who replaces Dungy because Peyton is the real coach of the Colts, blah blah blah. Thoughts?
Can someone more knowledgeable than me please explain to me how Tony Dungy invented the Cover 2?
Because I played D Back in high school, and playing Cover 2 has been around for along time - if we're talking playing with 2 safeties over the top.
Now, clearly I'm missing something, right? What's so special about Dungy's Tampa 2 defense? Was it really something he invented? Or just something his teams did well and helped popularize in the Pros?
I'm not saying those defenses weren't good, they were. I'm just curious as to why Tampa 2 was so innovative, when to these layman eyes it seems like people have been playing that defense for years before Dungy started coaching.
Someone please, edumacate The Foulness.
Coatesy-
You're a tough grader. The way I see it dude is in, no doubt. Indy only one it all once, but they had a pretty impressive regular season run, led by TD.
k1
ryanculver.blogspot.com
Are you guys serious? there's no way he's a lock. his teams have consistently underachieved in the playoffs and most of the time he's been in Indy the D has been the team's achillies heel.
I mean really, How many coaches from this era do you guys expect to get in?
He's definitely behind Parcells and Belicheck.
Shanahan won two Superbowls.
Holmgren and Cowher both appeared in several superbowls and won one.
Jimmy Johnsonwon two superbowls and recieves a lot of fthe credit for the third.
Dungy has one superbowl, and a bunch of first round exits. That is ultimately the measure of a coach, not regular season victories. I mean maybe he gets in because people like him, but on what he did between the lines alone he is suspect at best and definitely not a first balloter as some have suggested.
Its obviously not fair to say that Manning is the real coach of the Colts. But I don't think its crazy to assume that there are a lot of coaches that could have matched Dungy's run in Indy due to having Manning at QB.
Hometeam (SG),
I remember all of that except the dirt about the Glazers not wanting to pay Saunders (unbelievable--Im hearing people question whether or not they are now refusing to use all the cap space Allen cleared because their true interests lie with using the Bucs as a cash anchor for their Man U investment. Just passing along gossip here.)
I agree about our lack of bread and butter plays that year, but maybe that unpredictability is what made the team's red zone production so tough to stop? Anyway, fair points but I suspect our insider talk about a bucs team from pre-9/11 is boring everyone ha ha ha
Also Dungy's ring as a player with the Steelers definitely adds weight to his HOF bid.
[blockquote]If the only coaches of the modern era deserving of a spot in the last 30-40 years are Shula, Walsh, Tuna and Belichick, with a maybe for Jimmy Johnson then I guess you could knock Dungy.[/blockquote]The 30-40 year window includes Chuck Noll, whose career began in 1969, exactly 40 years ago.
Coaching standards are difficult to gauge; a few old timers are in by virtue of their association with the league's inception. Four NFL championships or three Superbowls guarantees hall of fame inception.
In the modern era, that means Noll, Belichick, Gibbs, and Walsh.
A tier below that, there are the coaches who make it on the sheer magnitude of their careers: Landry, Parcells. Worth mentioning that both coaches won two championships. Knocking on the door here is Mike Shanahan. Bill Cowher's record is nearly as impressive as Shanahan's, but he's short one title.
Below that, you have to think about who [i]isn't[/i] in. Tom Flores (two superbowls) and John Madden (one title and the best W-L% in the modern era) aren't. Hard to make the case for Johnson without Flores or Dungy without Madden.
I agree with all who say he's a HOFer. Others kicked out these statistics but I think missed the proper emphasis:
http://tinyurl.com/8j53pc
"the first coach in league history to reach the postseason in 10 consecutive seasons and the only coach to preside over six straight seasons of 12 wins or more."
Why is he gone? He's an incredible coach, just look at his W/L record...
Anyway - has to be HOF for sure.
I forgot to end the story. So Dungy needed a new offensive coordinator but he didn't want King to have to learn another new system so he allowed Clyde to call the plays for the pro bowl. Mind you the pro bowl team of course was stocked with a helluva lot more talent than we had and the Defenses were just going through the motions, still Clyde had them put up like 40 points so Dungy thought he could just slide Clyde in there and keep some continuity and he and Clyde are tight on faith based issues also. So that began the debacle of that last year. I should point out that he ended up taking Clyde with him to Indy as well as the TE Coach Ricky Thomas but he left everybody else behind as he should have.
Dick Vermeil?
Nevermind. That overall W-L isn't good enough.
The Foulness
Re Tampa 2
The reason Tony is credited with Tampa Two is because he took a regular cov 2 defense while D Coordinator with the Vikings and added some new twists to it that helped shore up some of the problems you used to have with the defense. For one when you play regular cover 2 the middle linebacker just sinks back a few yards which leaves the deep alleys between the safeties wide open.
So Dungy came up with the concept of having the Middle Backer cover that dead area with pattern reads either looking up the number 3 receiver or covering the seam route. Also in Tampa Two the Weak side backer has some ability to free lance and not just drop to a spot if he doesn't have a threat. That means he will have the opportunity to jump a lot of short crossing routes ala Derrick Brooks the year he won DPOY. There are also some technical things he did with alignment and patern reading on the parts of the corners that is way to technical and I don't want everybody pissed at me again.
But shorter me, regular cov 2 is dropping to a zone or a spot, tampa two is more pattern reading and reacting.
"Holmgren and Cowher both appeared in several superbowls and won one."
Oh please. They appeared in exactly one more Superbowl than Dungy--and lost. Hardly several.
"most of the time he's been in Indy the D has been the team's achillies heel."
Again I challenge you to back this up--defensive performances were never the Colts' problem in December and January. An anemic run game that allowed defenses to key on Manning and Harrison, that was the true culprit. And thats on Manning.
This is a great debate. Dungy's HOF work--for my money--was really on that Bucs team. Anyone who watched football in the 80s remember how terrible they were for, like, years. Dungy did not simply turn around that team, he turned around the franchise.
As for the D being the Achilles heel, that's might be true except for in one season--the season Indy won the Super Bowl. It's true they weren't very good during the regular season, but no one who saw that playoff run thinks Indy's O carried it for them. It was their D that did it that year.
Joel,
John Madden was inducted in the Hall of Fame in 2006.
Coates
And look up how many cats on that Defense were actually drafted by Indy. The reason they have lagged behind on D a bit is because they rarely get to keep their best players because there is so much money spend on offense. That creates a situation where the Defense is perpetually one of the youngest in the NFL and they have to change some starters every year.
But check it they were number 3 in defense last year and have been in the top 11 five out of his seven years in Indy. One of the two times they weren't was the Superbowl year. So the "they can't play defense" meme definitely FAILS
Colts playoff performances
2002 - 0-41 loss to Herm Edwards' Jets (awful D)
2003 - 41-10 win over Broncos (great D), 38-31 win over Broncos (bad D), 14-24 loss to Belichick's Patriots (decent D, 24 pts aint crazy)
2004 - 49-24 win over Broncos (decent D, again, esp in a blowout), 3-20 loss to Pats (decent D)
2005 - 18-21 loss to Steelers (decent D)
2006 - 23-8 win over KC Chiefs (excellent D), 15-6 win over Ravens (excellent D), 38-34 win over Pats (awful D), 29-17 win over Bears (solid D)
2007 - 24-28 loss to Chargers (decent D)
2008 - 17-23 loss to Chargers (decent D)
So where again was this horrible D that cheated Manning out of multiple rings? Unless giving up 24 points is the measure of bad, and not merely average, defense, the argument holds zero water.
Reasons why Tony Dungy is HoF material:
1) He turned a moribund joke of a franchise into a winner. Way to go, Colts! No, wait...
2) He turned the Tampa Bay Bucs from annual losers to annual winners. He had one losing season: his first (1996). After that his worst season was .500 (8-8 in 2000).
3) Even one Super Bowl ring gets you a look-see for HoF as a coach.
3a) The first African-American HC with a Super Bowl ring gets you a whole wing in the Hall.
4) He made Warren Sapp useful on-field.
5) He kept Derrick Brooks at OLB instead of converting him to Safety like all the scouts insisted. He made Derrick Brooks the best pass-protection Linebacker in history. When Brooks gets into the Hall himself - and he's a near lock as you can get outside of Ray Lewis at LB - Dungy deserves at least 60 percent of the credit.
6) He demonstrated that great coaches didn't have to rely on temper tantrums every other minute to keep players motivated.
7) 6 straight seasons of 10-plus wins. In this day and age of Free Agency attrition, a draft system that punishes winning teams with lower picks, and scheduling parity, that is unheard of.
8) How many Head Coaches and assistant Coaches in the league have him on their resumes? How many HCs came from his coaching system? Admittedly, half of them aren't that good, but then again how many Bill Walsh acolytes are/were good? Dungy's coaching legacy can be measured by how many learned from him to become HC's in their own right.
9) His overall football career as a player for the Steelers (led the defense in INTs in 1978, a Super Bowl team) + his years of assistant work paying his dues + his HC career = Hall of Fame.
I bet Dungy gets bored and comes back....though could be to college, as somebody suggested; I wouldn't mind, since I watch much more college than pro ball - the players are having far more fun.
Hall of Fame? For doing what, exactly? Underachieving with quality players? (Juba: the Colts were defensive patsies.) Had Dungy been white, he never would have held a job as long as he did.
Sometimes it's just useful to use Google and not just rant from memory!
Still, a tough standard - Madden had to wait quite a while before induction. The one inductee who lowers the bar is Marv Levy. Four AFC titles is nice but no championships and his record is about on par with Cowher, Shanahan, et al.
As far as Dungy being the first AA coach to win a Superbowl, Tom Flores was the first minority coach to win a Superbowl (and he won two). Didn't help him much. Flores might get George Seiferted out of the HOF..
Stacy,
You are correct that their surface numbers are pretty comparable, once you account for ballparks and eras. I should have said Santo is "more deserving."
The difference is in position: Santo's career OPS+ (an imperfect but fair/fast metric) is better than every HOF 3b except Schmidt, Matthews, Brett, Killebrew, Boggs, and Home Run Baker. He also won 5 consecutive gold gloves.
Rice's OPS+ ranks about 50th of the (now) 66 OFs in the Hall - and the guys he beats are mostly dead-ball guys, or exceptional cases like Yount (SS), Ashburn (defense and announcing), or Brock (steals). Rice was a butcher in the OF.
I should've just mentioned Tim Raines, who is clearly superior to Rice.
Miande
Please quantify your obviously race baiting statement.
Joel,
Kudos for the Flores mention. Way too overlooked.
Miande,
10 consecutive playoff appearances will keep you an NFL HC as long as you wanna be. Heck, the Tampa Bay coaching job alone was enough to keep him on short lists for the rest of his career.
You are either football ignorant, racially ignorant, just plain ignorant or maybe all three.
@Juba
Holmgren went to three Superbowls- 2 in GB one in Seattle.
Cowher went to one more Superbowl, but also went to four AFC championships.
That's the real knock, to many times Dungy was one and done in the playoffs. 9-10 playoff record.
Cowher is 12-9, Holmgren is 13-11.
I can't look up the stats, right this minute (help anyone?) but for years the Colts' D was weak. Even the year they won the SB the D was bad most of the regualar season but they got it together in the playoffs like TNC said. That year and the year after, if my memory serves me were the years that their D was best (the Bob sanders years)
Given that Dungy's coached (and played) throughout the league and reportedly left overwhelmingly positive impressions everywhere he's gone, I think he's developed a reputation that will, along with his ridiculous level of success, get him into the HoF. His record tops Marv Levy's.
Green,
well if they pulled it together for the playoffs, they werent the factor holding the Colts back, right?
If the argument is regular season, seven consecutive 12-4 or higher seasons is bulletproof.
If the argument is playoff underachievement, then the D pulling it together as you say eliminates them as a suspect in the accusation of underachievement, no?
"The difference is in position: Santo's career OPS+ (an imperfect but fair/fast metric) is better than every HOF 3b except Schmidt, Matthews, Brett, Killebrew, Boggs, and Home Run Baker. He also won 5 consecutive gold gloves."
That's a pretty valid argument. The Hall does seem to be especially stingy when it comes to 3rd Basemen. As a rabid Cards fan, I kind of feel the need to root against him, but you're probably right. His resume as a 3rd basemen is pretty strong.
Rice does have an MVP and five top-5 MVP finishes. Just saying...
Ron Santo was a MUCH better player than Jim Rice? I don't think the numbers back you up on that one.
Santo was a very good third baseman, Rice a mediocre to poor corner outfielder. It's fair to say Santo was a much better PLAYER, in the same way Brooks Robinson was a much better player than
Lou Piniella.
As for Dungy, close call. I think the closest comp to his career, structually, is Tom Coughlin. Both coached for two teams over 13 years, building something out of nothing in the first job (Jacksonville had BY FAR the best five year record of any expansion team) and winning a Super Bowl with the second team (with a Manning, no less!) Obviously Dungy's record is quite a bit better than Coughlin's, but then again Coughlin has the wrong Manning. So, you're left with basically a rich man's Coughlin. I think I'd vote no on Dungy, but am open to persuasion.
Juba:
Another way to lok at those playoff number that I think is telling:
one and done: 6 times!
1-1: 3 times.
multiple wins in the playoffs: only twice out of 11 tries.
listen I like Dungy and I repsect what he's done as a coach as well as a mentor and I think he should more credit than he does for building what ultimately became Gruden SB. So Im not trying to really hate on the guy, he was a really good coach and will get consideration for the hall. But he's not a lock. there's other enough other guys out there with as good or better numbers than him that he will (or at least should) have to wait a good while before he gets in, if ever.
Oh I personally blame him and Peyton for the all ticky tacky "illegal contact" penalties we see these days. Belicheck straight out coached Dungy those first couple of playoff matchups and they changed the rules (i.e. emphasized) to stop it...
Green
Dungy went to the playoffs 11 times. He was one and done 5 times two of which in Tampa in his last two years. He also went to an NFC championship game with Tampa and two AFC championship games winning one and winning a Superbowl.
Look at it this way, in 11 seasons the guy has all of one losing season. One. Find me another coach with THAT kind of record and I will bet he is in the Hall of Fame if he even exists.
baseball aside:
Jim Rice was a borderline hall of fame candidate, but the bar has to be set somewhere. I don't mind his induction at all.
in his favor: peak value, black ink, played for a premier franchise (NYY, BOS, LAD, CHC), power hitter.
against him: short career, defense, GIDP rate, home field, virulent opposition to "dated" metrics by some vested statheads.
Tim Raines still has a shot, but a lot of his value was tied in rate numbers which tend not to excite HOF voters. If statheads want someone to rail against, pick Andre Dawson, whose case is much weaker than Rice's was.
correction, you are right it was 6 times. But how many other coaches even went to the playoffs 11 times in their career?
"played for a premier franchise (NYY, BOS, LAD, CHC),"
Two problems with this. One, playing for a premier franchise SHOULDN'T be relevant towards your HOF credentials. Two, you didn't include the St. Louis Cardinals. By far the 2nd most successful franchise behind the New York Yankees. And yes, I'm fully aware that STL is not a first rate city.
That's my last baseball post. I can imagine TNC ready to strike down...
Aw hell Marv Levy is in the HOF, yall can kiss my ass about saying Dungy won't get in now.
Shouldn't, but does. I'm not talking about on-the-field success. I'm talking about fame, presumably a qualifier for the hall of fame. All else being equal, playing in one of those four markets magnifies your case for the hall of fame. Twenty years ago, the four franchises would have been different and frankly, STL would have displaced BOS. But times are different.
Joel,
I agree with you that it DOES matter. I'm just saying all the rest of your qualifiers really SHOULD matter. That one shouldn't.
What have Cubs possibly done to qualify as a premier franchise short of having a huge payroll and underachieving in the playoffs?
"Look at it this way, in 11 seasons the guy has all of one losing season. One. Find me another coach with THAT kind of record and I will bet he is in the Hall of Fame if he even exists."
And that one losing season was his FIRST as a HC with a Tampa Bay team so bad that for two decades, everyone from Hollywood to hip-hop used them as a punchline for Bad Sports Team, any sport, any league.
Or the Dodgers for that matter?
Okay, I'm really done now.
Madden and Marv Levy being in all but seals it, SG.
SG: didnt do an exhaustive search, but schottenheimer has 1 losing season
reid has two.
Green
Marty has 2, 1 in KC 1998 and one in SD 2003
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marty_Schottenheimer
SG: Madden had winning records all 10 seasons and one ring. He has the best record of any 100-win coach (by far, I think). Levy's a good measuring stick, but not Madden.
What's probably more important is to think of the other recently retired coaches who'll be competing with Dungy. Not too many coaches are allowed in so he might have to wait awhile.
Schottenheimer has three losing seasons
One in 84, his first year in Cleveland, one in KC in 98 and one with San Diego in 03.
He also had three 8-8 seasons and one 8-7-1 season. Dungy only had one 8-8 season.
Reid had two losing seasons and one 8-8 season.
Correction, Marty's first season was 4-4 (.500) in apparently a strike year. So yes, two losing seasons my bad.
TNC's gotta cut us some slack for being off-topic, Stacy. You can't start an NFL HOF thread on the day the baseball HOF announces members, and not expect some cross-talk. :)
Rice's peak was great, but that's all there was to his career, really. I prefer Evans to Rice for the HOF. Dawson's practially criminal, but it blows my mind that Raines' vote totals went DOWN this year, while Rice's went up. When you consider that the BBWAA voting membership is presumably getting younger and more stat-sophisticated, that result boggles the mind.
To get us back on topic, sortof: Ken Anderson for Canton!!!
ed
How do you measure underachieving?
Losing to Norv in the Playoffs.
ed
First you said
but now you are saying
Unfortunately for you the only time Dungy faced Norv Turner in the playoffs as the coach of the Bucs he beat him in a very exciting game here in Tampa. A game which if I remember correctly led to Norv getting fired.
"Had Dungy been white, he never would have held a job as long as he did."
Miande, If he had been white he would have gotten a Head coaching job about 5 years before he did, and with a better team than the shitshow he inherited in Tampa.
10 straight playoff years, 1.5 super bowls (gotta give some credit for the Bucs win). In his era only Shanahan and Belichick are superior.
A decent coaching tree and Tampa 2 are also good points, while I give more credit for the Tampa 2 to Monte Kiffin, though.
As an aside, I wrote for the college paper at USF, and I had an impromptu interview with him at an event on campus, a talk given by neurosurgeon Ben Carson for Black Emphasis month (blah!). He didn't really need to give me any time, but sat with me for 10 minutes to talk about the event and his time in Tampa. Incredibly generous with his time and told me to send a link to the story to his agent, and he sent me a short email later to thank me for talking.
this link details the win loss record of coaches, and you can sort by either wins, or by percentage.
Here is a link to the Hall of Fame - scroll down for coaches.
Dungy is #11 in win percentage, and #18 in total wins.
The only one who is NOT on that list, with a higher percentage - and enough games - is George Allen.
Those with higher wins and not on the list -
Curly Lambeau
Marty Shottenheimer (who will probably go at some point)
Dan Reeves
Chuck Knox
Bill Parcells (who will definitely go at some point)
Mike Holmgren (30 more games, less of a win percentage - and will probably go)
Steve Owen
Bill Cohwer
Again, almost all of which have less of a win-loss percentage record. And, at least 4 that are active, that will probably go.
So you have a good argument for Tony Dungy, in my opinion. Especially given the teams he coached, how he turned Tampa Bay around, and then, also turned Indianopolis into a premiere team throughout the aughts.
sg:
I wrote that mostly for a mild gag. Your point is a good one, but then again, Dungy beats Norv on a botched snap. Pretty weak.
I think Dungy's essentially Marty Schottenheimer--and I mean this as a high complement--with what he did creating the Tampa team and at Indy. (And now that I think about it, had Marty stayed in DC for a few more years--as he should have--the 'Skins would be on much more solid footing, if not wearing another ring.)
Dungy in, by winning a lot, including a Super Bowl. His record should be enough, but for those on the edge, do not underestimate being the first black head coach to win a Super Bowl. It as a legitimate consideration when you look at the history (and often today's reality) of the sport.
As for Rice, good for him. It looks like Dawson has a chance get there. For more than a decade he was always in the conversation about the best player in the game. Don't let the stats fool you - he could do everything including great defense that looked easy (at least until the knees went). Raines deserves more respect - 2nd best leadoff man ever, behind Rickey.
Juba said “I think he is a devoted Christian….--standing with religious homophobes even if not actually espousing their beliefs.”
That’s what drives me nuts about Dungy – the claim he’s some sort of faithful Christian deserving of all sorts of veneration. Dungy himself – as a reflection of that much heralded modesty – forever proclaims himself Christ’s disciple on earth. Faith, family, work is the ethos he claims to live by. And its time to call BS on that.
He is the head coach of an NFL team in the 21st century. Read the Bible, pay particular attention to the actual words spoken by Jesus Christ. Start with the Sermons on the Mount. Tell me how any NFL head coach can be said to live by those words? You don’t have success in the league without taking men who have left their health on the field for you and tossing them aside the day they no longer have what it takes. Christ would be so proud.
For all the scorn heaped on Bill Belichick I think he deserves our praise for this: he is the most brutally honest head coach in the NFL. Any one of them would do whatever it takes to win; Belichick makes no claim to the contrary and is forever pilloried in the press for that. Meanwhile, Dungy, who is as brutal an assessor of talent as Belichick any day of the week – is presented as Coach Mother Theresa.
As for the family side of the equation, no one who chooses a profession where 100 hour weeks are the norm from August – January and 60 hour weeks the norm from February - July can claim to put family ahead of work. It’s nice he has a clause in his contract enabling him to see his kid’s games but what does it tell you that his chosen profession makes such a clause necessary?
Every time I hear him posited as an example of what a parent should be I cringe. Any night of the week in any town in America you can find parents who have put family ahead of promotion potential running Scout troops, sports programs, great books seminars, and a myriad of other activities. How about holding those parents up as examples?
And honestly, my view of the Dungy’s as a family is this: it should be no ones business what decisions they’ve made and how they’ve chosen to split their parental duties. If what they do works for them, fine. However, as soon as Tony Dungy walks to the pulpit or dais – as he so often does – and at least tacitly accepts the accolades and implications that he should serve as a role model for the rest of us – it becomes perfectly fair and reasonable to ask just what decisions he has made and whether or not others should follow suit.
Bob
You literally have no fucking idea what you are talking about. You have a vision of what YOU think Tony Dungy should be with out even knowing the facts about the man you are villifying. He doesn't work like some other Coaches that put in the 100 hour weeks not only because he wants to see his family but also because he wants his coaches to have the chance to do the same. And what makes your diatribe particularly galling is that the man has been criticized for doing that. His kids when they were little were ALWAYS around the facility which you never see with Head football coaches or hell for that matter attorneys, garbage men, nor insurance agents. You act like every man that cares abou this family works 30 hours a week or less and takes them to boy scouts. Man I could go on and on but the next time you want to cast aspersions on someone that you don't know at least try to do some fucking research on them first.
Calm down, sgwhite. It's not like YOU know Tony Dungy, either. I know you think you own TNC's comments section and you're the chief TEC (Troll Enforcement Officer) here, but now you're acting like a troll.
People are allowed to disagree with you over Tony Dungy without being subjected to your silly f-bombs. Grow up, dude.
PS - The son of Perfect Tony still ended up killing himself. Maybe not all was perfect in paradise.
Given that Marv Levy is in the Hall, doesn't that mean not just Dungy (and Belichick and Parcells, obviously) get in but also:
Mike Shanahan
Jimmy Johnson
Bill Cowher
Mike Holmgren
Dick Vermeil
Dan Reeves (4 super bowl losses, just like ole Marv)
Where is the line? If Philly wins the Super Bowl this year, is Andy Reid a HOFer?
I think Dungy's a no brainer, but I'd put all those guys in over Marv. Shanahan would be an interesting debate but I say no way to the others as of now, although Cowher and Holmgren could very well come back and add to their resumes.
I was a skeptic on Dungy in terms of him deserving to be in the HOF when this thread started. I pretty much figure he will be because he is very well-liked, and right there at the line in terms of the merits.
But having listened to all the arguments, I still gotta say no. Because I'm not putting Mike Shanahan in, and he's got one more Super Bowl win than Dungy. I say no to Bill Cowher, Mike Holmgren & Dan Reeves as well. Jimmy Johnson & Dick Vermeil go in, in my book. I can see the arguments against those guys, too, but they stand up to questioning IMO.
I don't buy that Dungy deserves that much credit for Tampa winning the Super Bowl, when the fact is Dungy never won shit with Tampa. Never even played in a Super Bowl. You simply can't give Dungy that much credit for Tampa's Super Bowl win, when the fact is it was Gruden who brought him the ring. For my money, you can stack Gruden today up against Dungy and they have the same record of success. And Gruden ain't Hall of Fame, not today. Dungy has exactly as many Super Bowl victories as Gruden and Tom Coughlin, who as someone pointed out earlier, who also has just as much experience and real success as Dungy, and with Eli instead of Peyton.
There is a strong case to be made that Tony Dungy has coached some of the more disappointing teams in recent memory. Dungy had one good year in the playoffs in Tampa, and other than that was disappointing. In Indy, they were good enough to win 3 Super Bowls, 4 if you count this year's club, which was probably the favorite before they lost to a weak San Diego team for the second year in a row. How many years did the Colts start off smoking hot, only to burn out in the big moments? Shouldn't this have been an All-Time great team? Wans't Manning/Harrison/James every bit the equal of the Cowboys trio?
I see Dungy as being a very good coach who gets bonus points from the press for being a super nice guy, which by all accounts he is. And when he gets in over Couglin and Gruden and these other guys with similar records, I gotta believe it's because of this bias the press has towards the man. Dungy is like the anti-Barry Bonds.
Dungy gets some credit for not being a yelling jackass like Parcells (easily the most overrated coach, I believe) and others. I'm not sure whether being a homophobic ass completely cancels it out for me, but it definitely will not for the HOF crowd.
Not sure if Dungy makes it to the HOF, but I hope he does, if for nothing else because he is such a class act. I find it amusing that those who judge him as a hateful homophobe express the very same hate they accuse him of. Dungy is a devout Christian. Like or not, the Bible is very clear about homosexuality. It seems that gay people who expect others to be tolerant of their lifestyle choices yet refuse to be tolerant of those who don't see things their way.
Getting back to football, I don't see how anyone can disagree with the fact that Gruden's SB win came with Dungy's team. Another thing to consider, is that with the exception of this year, Dungy's Colts have come within 2 wins fo the SB every year fir the last 7 years. This year is the first year in the last 8 that the Colts did not win their division. To get a team, year after year, for nearly a decade in a position to contend for the SB takes something special and to do this in the era of free agency takes something really special.
Like or not, the Bible is very clear about homosexuality.
And eating shellfish. What's your point?
Yeah, russd, that is pretty curious about homosexuals. You ever notice how black people want you to be tolerant of them being black, yet at the same time, aren't tolerant of a bigot's right to hate them. That's kind of amusing in the same way...
Rice has no business at all being in the Hall of Fame. His career numbers weren't that great, and frankly his overall offensive numbers (measured by adjusted OPS) were nothing special, either, on the HOF scale. He's a guy that was a very poor fielder, so he's only in on the basis of his bat, and yet his overall offensive numbers compare unfavorably to almost every other outfielder in the Hall.
Any voter who voted for Rice but not for Dale Murphy should have their voting status taken away, since Murphy was superior in every single way to Rice. Better hitter, better fielder, slightly better career numbers, 2 MVPs to one, more successful teams, decent base stealer for a while. And having said that, I don't think Dale Murphy deserves to be in the hall, either. But I challenge anyone to come up with any justification whatsover for putting Rice in the Hall and not Murphy.
And don't get me started on Santo, who does deserve admission to the hall. He's killed because he played in very down offensive era, and people have the mistaken impression that 3B is a big power position like 1B, as opposed to a primarilly fielding position like SS.
He is the head coach of an NFL team in the 21st century. Read the Bible, pay particular attention to the actual words spoken by Jesus Christ. Start with the Sermons on the Mount.
Please Bob, explain how the Sermon on the Mount conflicts with being an NFL coach.
i was under the impression that Dungy was a shoe-in on stats alone, never mind the legion of people involved with football who gush about his exemplary character, or his obvious trailblazing.
I saw John Clayton on Mike and Mike this morning, and he doesn't think that Dungy is going to get in. Not sure how much his opinion is worth, but he obviously really likes Dungy. He said he was 'going to miss him.'
Persia --
The poster is correct: the Bible is very clear about homosexuality. But you know what I think says more about homosexuiality than what Paul said or what was in Leviticus? The fact that Jesus himself, in his 30 odd years on earth, is not quoted as saying ANYTHING AT ALL ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY.
Now we know there were queers back then, otherwise there would have been no condemnation. And we know Jesus' opinions on rich men, hypocrites, etc. But not a single bleeping word about queers?
Maybe Jesus had no beef with them. Maybe he thought they fell into the "he who is without sin cast the first stone" catagory. Maybe he thought their sin was not monumental compared to the other sins he saw going on around him. But the fact remains that the man who the religion "Christianity" is named after never said a word about homosexuality or homosexuals. Silence speaks volumes.
Spgwhiteinfla: you literally have no idea what the word literally means. But thanks for sharing your brilliant insights nonetheless.
dwhite10701 “explain how the Sermon on the Mount conflicts with being an NFL coach.” What’s with you people and literalism? I said “start with” meaning it makes for a good introduction to Christ’s beliefs. Jesus of Nazareth was clearly calling for a world in which we all acted as brothers and sisters to one another – one big family – every man, woman and child helping every man, woman and child.
But hey, if you need that literal conflict, how about this from the Sermon on the Mount: “So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.”
Thanks for your good work in years past, thanks for playing through the pain that comes with numerous surgeries, compressed vertebra, concussions, etc, but now that you’ve lost 2 tenths of a second on your 40 yard dash your services are no longer needed.
There is nothing Christian about the personnel decisions made every season by every head coach in the NFL.
As an NFL head coach he is incapable of treating others as he would wish to be treated himself. Unless being cast aside with a battered and broken body – and loosing your livelihood in the process – once you are no longer able to perform at an absurdly high level is how you hope to be treated. As I have never had any reason to believe Dungy to be a masochist I’m gonna go out on a limb and say he doesn’t want to be treated that way.
No coach in the modern era has as many 12 win seasons as Dungy without having manipulated players, making them play through serious injuries, kicking them to the curb when no longer 100%, threatening and/or trades (and think for a minute about trades and families – middle of the school year and you’re sent 2000 miles away – do you pull your kids out of one school and move them to another or do you go without your family?).
My point wasn’t to denigrate Dungy. He’s damn good at what he does. His family situation should be a personal issue off-limits to the rest of us but he crossed that line and made the personal public long ago.
Bob, MoeCurlyAndJesus,
Pure haterade. You guys are textbook haters.
You see people put Dungy on a pedestal and it makes you seethe and smirk and look for reasons to knock him down. Maybe you dont feel so good about your selves and this is what you need to do to put down your chronic insecurities?
Juba: Is there any charge for your penetrating Freudian insights?
I speak for no one but myself, and as far as my "hate" goes all I've done is praise the mans work, say frankly I think he's done fine as a father and husband, but just drawn a line at the notion that he should be held up as a role model for the rest of us. You need to back off your celebrity worship and realize that all that amounts to is a reasonable assessment. You may agree or disagree, but I don't hate the man in way, shape or form.
"As I have never had any reason to believe Dungy to be a masochist I’m gonna go out on a limb and say he doesn’t want to be treated that way."
Dungy played in the fucking league. Your point is a silly one. I think Chrisianity is silly, but by your rationale, no true Christian could be a boss. At any profession. Get serious.
There is nothing Christian about the personnel decisions made every season by every head coach in the NFL. As an NFL head coach he is incapable of treating others as he would wish to be treated himself. Unless being cast aside with a battered and broken body – and loosing your livelihood in the process – once you are no longer able to perform at an absurdly high level is how you hope to be treated. As I have never had any reason to believe Dungy to be a masochist I’m gonna go out on a limb and say he doesn’t want to be treated that way.
I'm sorry, but this is just stupid. Players are fully aware that they won't be playing indefinitely. They'll play until they can't contribute, then they'll be gone. Just like every other athlete. If it's unchristian to say "since you're unable to play at the high level necessary for this league, so we're letting you go," then it would be unchristian to fire anyone for any job that they're unable to do.
Considering that Dungy was a player, he surely knows more than you or me about how players want to be treated. And considering that Dungy was voted as the coach players would most like to play for, I doubt players have any problems with how he treats them. (It's also worth noting that four of the top five coaches in that poll come from the Dungy coaching tree.)
So what do players want from a coach? According to that poll, the the most desirable attributes in a head coach were good communication skills, followed by motivational skills, approachability, management skills and leading by example.
It seems like standards are down to the point where you win a Superbowl and go to the playoffs a few times, and you're a HOF. For my money, the only two HOF coaches at this point are Belichick and maybe Shanahan.
Kurt Warner, another Christian hero football player, sure did act "silly" when he was benched with the Rams and threw a major media freak-out temper tantrum. But hey, I must have imagined that because players know what to expect and only expect good communication skills. And frankly if you wanna talk about what's stupid – pretending that "your time in the 40 has gone from 4.6 to 4.7 (ie you could still perform your job in a perfectly adequate manner, just not quite as well as last year) so your services are no longer needed" is comparable to the way any boss treats any worker is about as stupid as it gets.
"….then it would be unchristian to fire anyone for any job that they're unable to do."
Do you honestly not see a HUGE difference between not firing the 63 yo employee who now occasionally forgets things vs. cutting someone for a 1 or 2 tenths of a second drop in speed?
The NFL is a brutal, cut throat, dog eat dog world. There is NOTHING Christian about it.
And that’s perfectly ok. The NFL doesn’t exist to spread Christianity.
Dungy could have made a career of coaching high school football. All kids who try play but only the best start, a reasonable work week, help young people find their way – you know, all those things Jesus Christ actually talked about.
I really don't get this bizarre celebrity worship. How dare I say anything bad about Tony Dungy? Look, he's a human being who makes human decisions, but one of those decisions was to spend his career in one of the most ruthless jobs in one of the most violent sports in the country.
How that jibes with following the teachings of a communitarian pacifist is beyond me.
Guess that’s more proof of my stupidity.
All you bible beaters who love to say that it's okay for Tony Dungy to be a bigot because the bible says so...how do you deal with the fact that the bible says you should be stoned to death or whatever if you work on the Sabbath?
Tony Dungy has been working on Sunday's for his entire life. Put him to death!
Look, Dungy is a bigot, and if it's gonna cost Rick Warren points on the "good guy" scale, it certainly should cost Dungy. But a lot of the same people who go after Warren won't touch Dungy, because he's a role model.
Brings up a lot of tough questions, none of which really have anything to do with football, except that Dungy's football rep is based at least in part on being a good guy, which I guess he is, unless you're gay, which by any measure you've got to believe at least a handful of his players were.
On the football side, is everyone who is giving Dungy so much credit for winning a Super Bowl in Tampa gonna give Grady Little credit for winning a World Series in Boston? Or Jim Mora for turning Indy into a winner? Yes, he had one bad season that got him fired, but turned a 3-13 team into a 13-3 team that went 10-6 the next year. Dungy never went no 13-3 in Tampa. So I guess Jim Mora deserves credit for those great Colt teams...
One last point on St. Tony of Indy and how "Dungy played in the fucking league. Your point is a silly one."
To this day Dick Butkus refuses to say anything about George Halas because his hatred of Halas is so deep. Why? Wtf did George Halas do? Only this; he treated Dick Butkus the way any NFL coach - to include St. Tony - treats any player; as a disposible commodity.
You really need to follow post playing days careers if your gonna spout off about what players believe, expect etc.
Bob,
It has nothing to do with celebrity worship. You just sound like a nerd.
"There's nothing Christian about professional football!!!"
Sheesh.
You're a fool, Bob. I'm not talking about Dick Butkus. And who gives a flying fuck about how he feels about George Halas. Maybe Butkus was the asshole. Maybe Butkus couldn't deal with the fact that he didn't have it anymore. No one forced anybody to play.
Frankly, I don't really like Tony Dungy, but to suggest you can't be a "good Christian" because you're an NFL head coach is beyond stupid.
"Kurt Warner, another Christian hero football player, sure did act "silly" when he was benched with the Rams and threw a major media freak-out temper tantrum."
Correction: Brenda Warner threw a media freak-out temper tantrum.
Stacy: I never said you can't be a good Christian and an NFL head coach. I said you can not apply Christian principles to the management of an NFL team.
Correction to your correction: Kurt Warner most certainly did throw a temper tantrum.
And as for Butkus, I used him as an example of of literally hundreds of bitter ex players. You sound like someone who has no real clue about the culture of the NFL. If it's a news flash to you that there are hundreds - if not thousands - of bitter, angry ex-players you know nothing about the game.
"No one forced anybody to play." That is - without exception - the dumbest argument used. I know, those coddled, millionaire players.
Christ, the stoopid - it hurts.
Correction to your correction to my correction: Uh, no he didn't. But I guess that depends on your definition of 'temper tantrum.'
Of course there are literally hundres of bitter ex players. However, you sound like the one who has no clue about the culture of the NFL. The players have beef with the player's union. That is well documented. That's why they had Gene Upshaw killed. And sure, of course there are players who don't like their old coaches, but that is not where crippled players' issues are.
But it is true. Players are well compensated for ruining their bodies. And blaming an ex-coach for it is weak.
Ted Johnson is a pussy.
The point still remains that it doesn't matter if former players hate their former coaches. I hate my former coach, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's an asshole. Maybe I'm the asshole,(probably) maybe Dick Butkus is the asshole. You sound as though you have some serious issues. Is Conrad Dobler your father?
Bob, the leaps of logic you make here are astounding. A player (who played 40 years ago) hates a coach (who was an asshole according to most accounts), so that someone says something about Dungy?
Maybe if you could come up with one or two players who actually played for Dungy who are bitter towards him, your point would have a shred of merit.
Have a look at what Shaun King says about Dungy. And note that he says Dungy cut him in Indy when he thinks he deserved to be on the team. Doesn't look like bitterness to me.
“It’s unbelievable,” [Shaun] King said. “The way he allowed me to have my opportunity to realize my dream and when you look at me, and this speaks louder than anything I can say, here’s a guy who cut me in Indianapolis for a team I deserved to be on and a tear just welled up [thinking about him].”
Juba says: "Bob, MoeCurlyAndJesus,
Pure haterade. You guys are textbook haters.
You see people put Dungy on a pedestal and it makes you seethe and smirk and look for reasons to knock him down. Maybe you dont feel so good about your selves and this is what you need to do to put down your chronic insecurities?"
I don't hate Dungy. I think he's a great coach who deserves to make the HOF. I just don't think the sun shines out of his ass because he goes to church a lot.
And the fact is that he's not just an anti-gay bigot - he's an anti-gay bigot who used his celebrity to give his hatred a big platform. That's a serious character flaw.
@ Moe,
You dont hate Dungy but you suggest he neglected his family and drove his son to suicide?
@ Bob
Celebrity worship is one thing--saying he's a Hypo-Christian because he broke the Golden Rule by cutting players from the team is a whole nother realm of overreaction. Frankly that may be the most childish opinion Ive ever heard expressed about football, and Ive heard many.
But you guys dont hate Dungy. Ok. Sure.
Hey guys, Im looking to buy a bridge, got any on sale?
trying to cut through the bull here...i see some interesting points made, but it's starting to smell of trolls here...
i don't think anybody's arguing that Dungy's religion makes him HOF-material...or that it even makes him a good human being. He should be judged for the HOF regardless of his christianity AND homophobia.
I like to believe that regardless of sport (NFL, soccer, MMA, cricket, ballet, squardancing etc.), the game is set up so that the best talent gets to the top. That inadvertedly means that there needs to be a bottom. simply put, the number of players who actually "make it" is a fraction of those who try out, regardless of sport. That's the nature of the game. And EVERYONE knows this. Players, coaches, managers, owners, groundskeepers and toiletseat-cleaners.
if they didn't they will sooner or later realize it. Dungy knew that when he signed on the dotted line, and his players knew that when they tried out too. Now there are ALOT of issues with compensation and terms for both players that need adressing, but that shouldn't have any baring on the judgment of the players and coaches of today.