For some truly disturbing video, watch a man who once--and apparently still does--crusade against gays, on Oprah talking about seeking therapy to curb his attraction to men. It may not be me right, but I felt enormously sad for him, and even sadder for his wife.
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Not to be cynical here TNC, but we need to understand why the dude is still passively demonizing the gay community--he is hungry and can't get a job in the labor market. Like he said yesterday on Oprah Show, the dude never worked. If you watch the HBO documentary, the dude saw first-hand what it meant to be broke. It was a painstaking stock. The church assured him a modest living if, and only if, he does not strangulate them for their bigotry against the likes of Haggard. He is still not speaking the truth, reason: Financial security. Remember, he was expelled out of his state. Almost classified as a secret terrorist.
I haven't watched Oprah in years, but I tuned in yesterday for this. Sad indeed.
What struck me most was Ted's children's talking about how they were "relieved" when they heard about their father's secret. His daughter admits she never felt like she really knew her father until this happened, his vunerability revealing his humanity. I almost wanted to cry...the beauty of the power of truth, and unconditional love. Too bad Ted and his wife aren't able to fully embrace the truth. I'm sure it's just too painful. I feel for them, and I hope they find their way to the truth one day.
I disagree...What I got from the Oprah interview wasn't that he was still demonzing the gay community. He mentioned in the past that he thought being gay was a "demon" but has since reformed that warped mindset. He has not completely accepted the label of gay but; he is no longer claiming that gay people are not children of God and he doesn't claim that they will go to hell. He has abandoned that point of view. I think he is going through the process of acceptance his sexual thoughts for other men.
He seems to have taken stance that his sexuality is complex, and that he is not simply gay. I think that is where he is in this process. I can agree with that, I know plenty of people who don't accept the term gay, lesbian, or bisexual because they feel those terms don't describe their lifestyles. I can accept that some people are not willing to put a label on themselves if they are not exactly sure how they feel about their sexuality.
Lolagib1
That is a classic TRIANGULATION of high standard. This dude is a great saleman than Mitt Romney. They are good at confusing their potential buyers. Don't get me wrong, I feel sorry for him and his entire family. But that does not undercut the game he is playing here. Go and read the statement of Mike Jones in response to Ted's media crusade. He knows that with the evidents at hand, it is impossibe to blatantly denouced his gayism. At the same time, he wants to get his worldly treasure back. In politics, it is called voters' hero.
This guy was probably raised to believe that being gay is something that righteous people aren't. So as he grew older, he thought the more righteous he became (by becoming a minister), the less gay temptation he would have.
Cynically, it is easy to think that this is an act to save his ministry. To keep his current base, he has to put forth that he is a straight man that is tempted by the demons of homosexuality, but through holy living he can cast those aside and enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
A more sympathetic view would be that he is in such deep denial of what is obvious to many; that he is gay and should just learn to make peace with what he is.
Yes, I heard the statement on Oprah. Trust, I do think that the man is truly conflicted. I think that while he may have a wife who is willing to stay and create some stability and structure for him, which he desparately needs; I don't think that he is really satisfied in his marriage. That is why he still has homosexual thoughts. But I think there are other things at play here, I think he is trying to reconcile his homosexual wants, with the religiuous ideas that he has been taught his entire life. I know plenty of people in the African American community who go through the same thing.
He is never going to stop having homosexual thoughts because that is a part of him and he knows it. But I feel that he has somewhat learned to accept those thoughts but he still wants to keep his wife and family together; however miserable it may be. He does not say that being gay is evil and it is not. But at the same time, he knows that lying about it is wrong, cheating on his wife is wrong...i think he still trying to hold on to some sort of ideal.
It is complex, but I feel that he is slowly accepting who he is. And not everyone is accepting of the terms gay, lesbian, or bi....and they are allowed to make those decisions right?
And of course, he has not lost the evangelical mega pastor charm, that is still there but he has a right to tell his story...
"Cynically, it is easy to think that this is an act to save his ministry. To keep his current base, he has to put forth that he is a straight man that is tempted by the demons of homosexuality, but through holy living he can cast those aside and enter into the Kingdom of Heaven."
It's not cynical. His entire livelihood, literally, is tied to his church. The guy is desperately trying to save his family, his life, his soul. He said during the interview he's not 100% hetero, nor 100% homosexual. Regardless of how people view that statement, it's an astonishing thing for this man to say given the fact that his life hangs from a thread held by his church, and its belief system, which he grew up with and evangelized. This is a man who sees his choice as living "ideally" as a heterosexual man, or living in shame, or dying a sinner. Not an easy choice to make. So he wades through the gray matter between those choices, hoping he can hide there forever, hoping that will be enough to satisfy his church, to keep his family, to save his soul. But that in-between world is what I call Hell. He's a tortured soul.
My sympathy for him is tempered by thinking about the damage he's inflicted on other people: his wife, kids, other gay and bisexual people who are living their lives openly and with more integrity, and his church. I'm sure that the young guy who just came forward is not the only one in the church who came into such direct contact with his mixed messages. The only ones I'm really sorry for are the kids, who certainly didn't ask to have their dad be a messed-up closet case. His wife's humiliation can't be fun, but she choses this too by staying with him and going on TV shows with him. Sick.
By cynical, I meant that one of the thoughts that is in my head is that he may be protecting his wallet. That is the worst case scenario, he is simply a huckster. Of course I don't know what is really going on and like I mentioned, a more sypathetic view is that he is in denial, because the lifestyle he has been in, demands him to be hetero.
I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, but I also keep the possiblity in the back of my mind that they may be full of shit.
I feel like I must be missing something here. I did watch the interview and I remember hearing him say that in the past, he felt that his homosexual thoughts and feelings were "evil" or "demonic". but in the interview, he said that he no longer feels that way. He doen't label himself or his thoughts as demonic and he has somewhat accepted the homosexual thoughts. He feels that he can be accpeted by Jesus.
I just get the feeling that some people still think he feels that gay is evil. Now he does not believe that he is living the "ideal lifestyle" as he put it which is why he is holding on to his marriage.
He grew up in the church and was taught that homosexuals are evil and will goto hell. I firmly believe that the church is wrong and it creates individuals like Tedd Haggert. For him, its difficult to juggle his religious beliefs and a homosexual lifestyle. Its a process that he will have to go through till he can find peace with himself. But he is a man that who does not want to abandon the church, even though they abandonned him.
I don't understand why Oprah had him on her show. It just gives him a platform for spreading the view that there's something wrong with being gay, and that the right way to deal with it is to try to be straight. It's irresponsible.
I do feel sorry for him. But, elw has it right:
"My sympathy for him is tempered by thinking about the damage he's inflicted on other people: his wife, kids, other gay and bisexual people who are living their lives openly and with more integrity, and his church."
I know it's hard for people who have grown up in a world where being gay is a catastrophe to come out and live their lives. But people like Ted Haggard just make it harder. Unlike elw, though, I don't have a lot of sympathy for his church. That's what you get for being insanely homophobic: closeted gay people who make themselves, their families, and people around them miserable.
As a gay man I can attest that the struggle of Ted Haggard is the struggle that ALL gay people experience. Some are able to come through it relatively unscathed and some can not. Most of us (IMHO) have to deal with self-esteem issues and learn to value our own lives and feelings. I am an adult yet still bear the scars of growing up gay in a pretty homophobic area. Luckily for me my family supported, accepted and loved me. If not for that, I'm sure I would be pretty messed up right about now. To all you straight people - if your kid is gay, PLEASE, PLEASE love them and support them even if you don't understand why they are what they are. You could literally be the difference between life and death for them.
I sympathize with Ted. I know his struggle. I consider myself lucky to have reconciled my sexuality and accepted myself. It's not easy and I am not going to be the one the throw the first stone (so to speak) at Haggard.
Sexual repression plays out in odd ways, both on the individual and the society. This morning I found out that the clip we have on YouTube from our film about a gay couple is more popular in Iran than anywhere else in the world.
I'm sure it's true that his congregation is homophobic. But at the same time, having a sexual relationship with a parishoner is a pretty big betrayal for a minister -- it violates your relationship with the whole congregation, and most mainstream churches have pretty heavypolicies against it. And he supposedly cared about these people. So it still affects my view of him that he didn't take seriously his responsibility to the people under his care who looked to him for guidance about God and their own lives.
But at the same time, having a sexual relationship with a parishoner is a pretty big betrayal for a minister -- it violates your relationship with the whole congregation, and most mainstream churches have pretty heavypolicies against it. And he supposedly cared about these people.
I sure as hell have sympathy for the people he had sexual relationships with. It's the rest of the congregation I have less sympathy for.
If he'd come out, he would have lost his social and professional position. The congregation is complicit with the evangelical movement in creating incentives for people to stay closeted. And the repressed desires of secretive people come out in secretive and sometimes unpleasant way. It's predictable as the day.
Give that Haggard is not some poor struggling private citizen but has been a public figure, deeply involved in advocacy for shit that's totally bigoted, insane and un-Christian, I have the same sympathy for Oprah's guest that I had for that black guy Dave Chappelle had on his show who was a member of the KuKluxKlan. Haggard used hundreds of thousands of dollars of his followers' giving to the church, incidentally, to pay off and cover up. If he hadn't been caught, there would be no "change", no remorse. Screw this guy - obscurity would be a blessing to his family and to society, but he's got a big-hair preacher's ego and career to nurture. I hate these guys - closeted, straight, or whatever.
Indidentally, Oprah totally gets on my nerves promoting assholes like this, as does Alexandra Pelosi. I'm sorry - there's more worthwhile stuff to use their respective media platforms for. Pelosi is an utterly opportunistic "documentarian" - she pulled the same shit with another asshole, W.
I watched a show where Haggard claimed (to Richard Dawkins, before Haggard's exposure) that he had weekly conference calls with Bush and Rove. Arn't these assholes well got?
Maybe it's just me, but I just don't get the wife. Sure, she was probably naive and steeped in the beliefs of her church to marry a man who confessed to having homosexual thoughts. This same thing probably happened to many women thirty-five years ago. But it is 2009. She has to know better now. And knowing what she knows, I think it is commendable that she has chosen forgiveness. BUT I think it is being blinded by her religion and lying to herself that she has not chosen divorce.
Haggard and his wife both have plenty of time left in their lives to find people who can truly make them happy. I hope they do and remain good friends.
I feel no animosity toward Rev. Haggard, but it saddens me to imagine some kid watching Haggard's "testimony" and thinking that his own sexuality is something he can control, you know, make no longer compulsive. He can have a good marriage and be seen by his neighbor as a good Christian man. He'll just have to deal with this quirk, I dunno, maybe like having high cholesterol. Handle it with diet and exercise, or something like that.
The tragedies Haggard's behavior here portend are heartbreaking.
Haggard and Larry Craig are some of the saddest public figures in living memory. Look at their faces after they've been exposed and they seem so hollow and tragic. More "honest bigots", if such a thing can be imagined, wouldn't seem nearly as diminished and weak as Haggard does, gamely arguing the rightness of the positions he promoted as a way of publicly detesting himself.
Maybe their destructive actions toward the people in their lives, not to mention the discrimination in public life that they foster, should put them beyond pity. Perhaps kynefski's right, and the tragedies they portend for others are worse than the tragedies that their own lives now seem to be. But I can't look at Haggard without thinking of what a sad horror it must be to be him, his moments of joy and self-affirmation conducted shamefully and desperately. Fighting against himself at every waking moment, a part of himself "buried and hated".
I too just feel sad for the man. I cannot fathom the amount of self-loathing a person must have to flagellate themselves so publicly for something so obviously intrinsic. Far from outrage, disgust, or boredom, I just feel sorry.
I too just feel sad for the man. I cannot fathom the amount of self-loathing a person must have to flagellate themselves so publicly for something so obviously intrinsic. Far from outrage, disgust, or boredom, I just feel sorry.
Maybe. Or maybe it's simply an unquenchable thirst to be in the public eye.
As a bartender at a gay bar, I have seen plenty of Ted Haggards. For the most, I do feel sympathy for them because, as so noted above, it is tough accepting something about yourself in a society where many consider you sick, sinful, etc. Many of these Haggards also don't get into marriage thinking they are trying to fool their wives, but geniunely think marriage is the cure to their problems. It ain't ever the case.
I didn't watch the Oprah interview, but I saw him on Larry King. I have zippo sympathy for him. He may not be demozining gays, but he still considers it a sin, and still considers himself "heterosexual with issues." I also know enough about public relations to see that Haggard the Salesman is simply moving himself into a position to return to ministry, etc. He and his wife (who is also sadly going along with this sham) plan to take to the road to "tell a story that needs to be told." What story is that? A closeted gay man who is lying to himself and his family, or one of a man who needs ot drive away his sinful demons?
If Ted would haave simply left the spotlight and dealt with his pain privately, I would have had a lot more respect. But he is purposely making this a media event to sell a documentary (and probably a book at some point). I don't doubt that being caught in this lie wasn't tough for him; but does any one honestly believe he is sorry for his actions - or just sorry about being caught?
Reared unchurched but having read the King James Bible to try to get where Christians come from, I still don't get where fundamentalists find justification for their cruelty to gays.
I do get Haggard's shame is as much the fault of our culture as his religion. His need to cash in on notoriety that ended his career is just another reason to feel sorry for him. At least, he's not asking for a federal bailout.
I have a different take than most of you. I saw his HBO documentary, then read the CNN transcript.
Before that, I just knew about him from the headlines. BTW, turning on HBO, I was convinced I was going to watch some sort of classic evangelical con artist and have snarky fun with it. Instead, I came away with a lot of respect for the guy.
As far as remaining married, I sense there is a deep love between he and his wife. Being gay complicates, but certainly doesn't nullify, that love.
Second, his is a classic tragic story of a middle aged man in crisis. Many fall, for various reasons. His own fall has been particularly scandalous for reasons we all recognize. It would appear his church--one that preaches forgiveness of sin-- has abandoned him. Sure, it is his fault, but still, nasty stuff. Yet, what he seems to be doing in all of this, as public as it is, is to rebuild his self-respect and sense of dignity.
He's recovering better than a lot of middle aged guys I've seen go through similar tragedies, who end up wallowing in self-pity and self-loathing.
I've come to admire his courage. I never thought I'd say that about one of these self-righteous evangelicals, whose hypocrisy stains our culture like no other.
Sorry, Blader, I simply don't see that. Ted is still very much full of self-loathing because of his sexuality - he told Larry he would "never ever" give into these sinful feeling he keeps having about men. The fact he doesnt want to admit what just about anyone in the gay community recognizes - that he is one of us - means that he isn't being honest at all.
Instead, he is using old tired chestnuts like "I was molested as a kid" (yes, he said that on Oprah) or this is all about sin. It is utterly insulting and condescending to those of us who have been through such trauma, and haven't demonized other people in the process.
As for loving his wife, that I don't doubt. I was engaged, and loved my fiancee - would have done anything for her. But it was a casual sort of love, the kind you reserve for a friend, not your life partner. It's also a standard answer I hear from the many Teds that wander into my bar: I can't be gay because I love my wife.
I do agree with you on his church - they certainly practiced a less-than-Christian attitude, but this also is Ted's legacy. He ocnditioned them for this sort of response, even wrote strict moral rules about the conduct of members. Did he expect another reaction? If I was a member of this church, I also would want an investigation into the current leadership, who basically paid a bribe to a young man to keep him quiet. (Yes, I know for counseling and schooling - $180,000 worth?) Maybe this sort of dishonesty is a given at New Hope (cue the irony on that title),
Ted's million-wattage smile is that of a used car dealer trying to sell you a little beauty with only 200,000 miles - and only driven by a little old lady on Sundays. So call me cynical, but I don't get one feeling that Ted is looking for redemption, but simply some way to make money off of his grief. Maybe a reality show is his next step.
Relative to his appearance on Larry King, it should be noted that Mr. King asked him if he had had a relationship with other men besides the two who have gone public and he refused to answer the question.
Greetings, Thanks for the posts. I suggest that another issue is that interviewers let Ted Haggard and others off too easy and accept stupid answers. Would they accept an answer of not responding to hetersexual urges as a result of therapy? Would they not ask why he went back and back to the same person? (love, affection,
desire???) Would they not be skeptical that these gay behaviors of recent origin were only the tip of the iceberg? God Bless Oprah and Larry King, but they dont have the capacity to doggedly go after stupid answers and push for something of substance in regards to gay issues.
Here's a piece no one cared about. Meh, whatever, probably the most enjoyable article I did during my stint at TIME. Premiered a month before I got laid-off. The nail in the coffin? Ya think?
Here's me going after Al. I didn't so much have a problem with him, as I had a problem with media acting like this dude was the go-to guy for everything black.
This was my first real story at time. I was writing for the Business section, a real change of direction for me. At any rate, it's about Wal-Mart's attempts to colonize the inner-city. As much as I enjoyed this piece, I mostly enjoyed going out to Chicago, which is a beautiful, beautiful city.
This a piece I did about the cops just outside our nation capitol, in Prince George's County, a few years back. I wanted to offer a counter to the dumb, conventional wisdom that if you paint your police force black, you could eradicate police brutality. In fact, Prince George's--one of the richest, blackest counties in the country--also had one of the most brutal police force's in the country.
The Beautiful Struggle: A Father, Two Sons, and an Unlikely Road to Manhood 
Not to be cynical here TNC, but we need to understand why the dude is still passively demonizing the gay community--he is hungry and can't get a job in the labor market. Like he said yesterday on Oprah Show, the dude never worked. If you watch the HBO documentary, the dude saw first-hand what it meant to be broke. It was a painstaking stock. The church assured him a modest living if, and only if, he does not strangulate them for their bigotry against the likes of Haggard. He is still not speaking the truth, reason: Financial security. Remember, he was expelled out of his state. Almost classified as a secret terrorist.
I haven't watched Oprah in years, but I tuned in yesterday for this. Sad indeed.
What struck me most was Ted's children's talking about how they were "relieved" when they heard about their father's secret. His daughter admits she never felt like she really knew her father until this happened, his vunerability revealing his humanity. I almost wanted to cry...the beauty of the power of truth, and unconditional love. Too bad Ted and his wife aren't able to fully embrace the truth. I'm sure it's just too painful. I feel for them, and I hope they find their way to the truth one day.
I disagree...What I got from the Oprah interview wasn't that he was still demonzing the gay community. He mentioned in the past that he thought being gay was a "demon" but has since reformed that warped mindset. He has not completely accepted the label of gay but; he is no longer claiming that gay people are not children of God and he doesn't claim that they will go to hell. He has abandoned that point of view. I think he is going through the process of acceptance his sexual thoughts for other men.
He seems to have taken stance that his sexuality is complex, and that he is not simply gay. I think that is where he is in this process. I can agree with that, I know plenty of people who don't accept the term gay, lesbian, or bisexual because they feel those terms don't describe their lifestyles. I can accept that some people are not willing to put a label on themselves if they are not exactly sure how they feel about their sexuality.
Lolagib1
That is a classic TRIANGULATION of high standard. This dude is a great saleman than Mitt Romney. They are good at confusing their potential buyers. Don't get me wrong, I feel sorry for him and his entire family. But that does not undercut the game he is playing here. Go and read the statement of Mike Jones in response to Ted's media crusade. He knows that with the evidents at hand, it is impossibe to blatantly denouced his gayism. At the same time, he wants to get his worldly treasure back. In politics, it is called voters' hero.
Is it heartless for me not to feel sorry for this guy?
I do, however, feel sorry for his family.
This guy was probably raised to believe that being gay is something that righteous people aren't. So as he grew older, he thought the more righteous he became (by becoming a minister), the less gay temptation he would have.
Cynically, it is easy to think that this is an act to save his ministry. To keep his current base, he has to put forth that he is a straight man that is tempted by the demons of homosexuality, but through holy living he can cast those aside and enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
A more sympathetic view would be that he is in such deep denial of what is obvious to many; that he is gay and should just learn to make peace with what he is.
tobby,
Yes, I heard the statement on Oprah. Trust, I do think that the man is truly conflicted. I think that while he may have a wife who is willing to stay and create some stability and structure for him, which he desparately needs; I don't think that he is really satisfied in his marriage. That is why he still has homosexual thoughts. But I think there are other things at play here, I think he is trying to reconcile his homosexual wants, with the religiuous ideas that he has been taught his entire life. I know plenty of people in the African American community who go through the same thing.
He is never going to stop having homosexual thoughts because that is a part of him and he knows it. But I feel that he has somewhat learned to accept those thoughts but he still wants to keep his wife and family together; however miserable it may be. He does not say that being gay is evil and it is not. But at the same time, he knows that lying about it is wrong, cheating on his wife is wrong...i think he still trying to hold on to some sort of ideal.
It is complex, but I feel that he is slowly accepting who he is. And not everyone is accepting of the terms gay, lesbian, or bi....and they are allowed to make those decisions right?
And of course, he has not lost the evangelical mega pastor charm, that is still there but he has a right to tell his story...
"Cynically, it is easy to think that this is an act to save his ministry. To keep his current base, he has to put forth that he is a straight man that is tempted by the demons of homosexuality, but through holy living he can cast those aside and enter into the Kingdom of Heaven."
It's not cynical. His entire livelihood, literally, is tied to his church. The guy is desperately trying to save his family, his life, his soul. He said during the interview he's not 100% hetero, nor 100% homosexual. Regardless of how people view that statement, it's an astonishing thing for this man to say given the fact that his life hangs from a thread held by his church, and its belief system, which he grew up with and evangelized. This is a man who sees his choice as living "ideally" as a heterosexual man, or living in shame, or dying a sinner. Not an easy choice to make. So he wades through the gray matter between those choices, hoping he can hide there forever, hoping that will be enough to satisfy his church, to keep his family, to save his soul. But that in-between world is what I call Hell. He's a tortured soul.
My sympathy for him is tempered by thinking about the damage he's inflicted on other people: his wife, kids, other gay and bisexual people who are living their lives openly and with more integrity, and his church. I'm sure that the young guy who just came forward is not the only one in the church who came into such direct contact with his mixed messages. The only ones I'm really sorry for are the kids, who certainly didn't ask to have their dad be a messed-up closet case. His wife's humiliation can't be fun, but she choses this too by staying with him and going on TV shows with him. Sick.
By cynical, I meant that one of the thoughts that is in my head is that he may be protecting his wallet. That is the worst case scenario, he is simply a huckster. Of course I don't know what is really going on and like I mentioned, a more sypathetic view is that he is in denial, because the lifestyle he has been in, demands him to be hetero.
I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, but I also keep the possiblity in the back of my mind that they may be full of shit.
I feel like I must be missing something here. I did watch the interview and I remember hearing him say that in the past, he felt that his homosexual thoughts and feelings were "evil" or "demonic". but in the interview, he said that he no longer feels that way. He doen't label himself or his thoughts as demonic and he has somewhat accepted the homosexual thoughts. He feels that he can be accpeted by Jesus.
I just get the feeling that some people still think he feels that gay is evil. Now he does not believe that he is living the "ideal lifestyle" as he put it which is why he is holding on to his marriage.
He grew up in the church and was taught that homosexuals are evil and will goto hell. I firmly believe that the church is wrong and it creates individuals like Tedd Haggert. For him, its difficult to juggle his religious beliefs and a homosexual lifestyle. Its a process that he will have to go through till he can find peace with himself. But he is a man that who does not want to abandon the church, even though they abandonned him.
I don't understand why Oprah had him on her show. It just gives him a platform for spreading the view that there's something wrong with being gay, and that the right way to deal with it is to try to be straight. It's irresponsible.
I do feel sorry for him. But, elw has it right:
"My sympathy for him is tempered by thinking about the damage he's inflicted on other people: his wife, kids, other gay and bisexual people who are living their lives openly and with more integrity, and his church."
I know it's hard for people who have grown up in a world where being gay is a catastrophe to come out and live their lives. But people like Ted Haggard just make it harder. Unlike elw, though, I don't have a lot of sympathy for his church. That's what you get for being insanely homophobic: closeted gay people who make themselves, their families, and people around them miserable.
As a gay man I can attest that the struggle of Ted Haggard is the struggle that ALL gay people experience. Some are able to come through it relatively unscathed and some can not. Most of us (IMHO) have to deal with self-esteem issues and learn to value our own lives and feelings. I am an adult yet still bear the scars of growing up gay in a pretty homophobic area. Luckily for me my family supported, accepted and loved me. If not for that, I'm sure I would be pretty messed up right about now. To all you straight people - if your kid is gay, PLEASE, PLEASE love them and support them even if you don't understand why they are what they are. You could literally be the difference between life and death for them.
I sympathize with Ted. I know his struggle. I consider myself lucky to have reconciled my sexuality and accepted myself. It's not easy and I am not going to be the one the throw the first stone (so to speak) at Haggard.
Sexual repression plays out in odd ways, both on the individual and the society. This morning I found out that the clip we have on YouTube from our film about a gay couple is more popular in Iran than anywhere else in the world.
@ North,
I'm sure it's true that his congregation is homophobic. But at the same time, having a sexual relationship with a parishoner is a pretty big betrayal for a minister -- it violates your relationship with the whole congregation, and most mainstream churches have pretty heavypolicies against it. And he supposedly cared about these people. So it still affects my view of him that he didn't take seriously his responsibility to the people under his care who looked to him for guidance about God and their own lives.
But at the same time, having a sexual relationship with a parishoner is a pretty big betrayal for a minister -- it violates your relationship with the whole congregation, and most mainstream churches have pretty heavypolicies against it. And he supposedly cared about these people.
I sure as hell have sympathy for the people he had sexual relationships with. It's the rest of the congregation I have less sympathy for.
If he'd come out, he would have lost his social and professional position. The congregation is complicit with the evangelical movement in creating incentives for people to stay closeted. And the repressed desires of secretive people come out in secretive and sometimes unpleasant way. It's predictable as the day.
Give that Haggard is not some poor struggling private citizen but has been a public figure, deeply involved in advocacy for shit that's totally bigoted, insane and un-Christian, I have the same sympathy for Oprah's guest that I had for that black guy Dave Chappelle had on his show who was a member of the KuKluxKlan. Haggard used hundreds of thousands of dollars of his followers' giving to the church, incidentally, to pay off and cover up. If he hadn't been caught, there would be no "change", no remorse. Screw this guy - obscurity would be a blessing to his family and to society, but he's got a big-hair preacher's ego and career to nurture. I hate these guys - closeted, straight, or whatever.
Indidentally, Oprah totally gets on my nerves promoting assholes like this, as does Alexandra Pelosi. I'm sorry - there's more worthwhile stuff to use their respective media platforms for. Pelosi is an utterly opportunistic "documentarian" - she pulled the same shit with another asshole, W.
I watched a show where Haggard claimed (to Richard Dawkins, before Haggard's exposure) that he had weekly conference calls with Bush and Rove. Arn't these assholes well got?
Maybe it's just me, but I just don't get the wife. Sure, she was probably naive and steeped in the beliefs of her church to marry a man who confessed to having homosexual thoughts. This same thing probably happened to many women thirty-five years ago. But it is 2009. She has to know better now. And knowing what she knows, I think it is commendable that she has chosen forgiveness. BUT I think it is being blinded by her religion and lying to herself that she has not chosen divorce.
Haggard and his wife both have plenty of time left in their lives to find people who can truly make them happy. I hope they do and remain good friends.
I feel no animosity toward Rev. Haggard, but it saddens me to imagine some kid watching Haggard's "testimony" and thinking that his own sexuality is something he can control, you know, make no longer compulsive. He can have a good marriage and be seen by his neighbor as a good Christian man. He'll just have to deal with this quirk, I dunno, maybe like having high cholesterol. Handle it with diet and exercise, or something like that.
The tragedies Haggard's behavior here portend are heartbreaking.
Haggard and Larry Craig are some of the saddest public figures in living memory. Look at their faces after they've been exposed and they seem so hollow and tragic. More "honest bigots", if such a thing can be imagined, wouldn't seem nearly as diminished and weak as Haggard does, gamely arguing the rightness of the positions he promoted as a way of publicly detesting himself.
Maybe their destructive actions toward the people in their lives, not to mention the discrimination in public life that they foster, should put them beyond pity. Perhaps kynefski's right, and the tragedies they portend for others are worse than the tragedies that their own lives now seem to be. But I can't look at Haggard without thinking of what a sad horror it must be to be him, his moments of joy and self-affirmation conducted shamefully and desperately. Fighting against himself at every waking moment, a part of himself "buried and hated".
Agreed. The whole thing is deeply sad.
I too just feel sad for the man. I cannot fathom the amount of self-loathing a person must have to flagellate themselves so publicly for something so obviously intrinsic. Far from outrage, disgust, or boredom, I just feel sorry.
The whole affair with his parishoner really reminds of Satan's Alley, staring Kirk Lazarus.
So if anyone is imagining what Haggard was going through, just watch that trailer.
www.dailymotion.com/video/x7alzm_satans-alley-trailer_fun -
As a bartender at a gay bar, I have seen plenty of Ted Haggards. For the most, I do feel sympathy for them because, as so noted above, it is tough accepting something about yourself in a society where many consider you sick, sinful, etc. Many of these Haggards also don't get into marriage thinking they are trying to fool their wives, but geniunely think marriage is the cure to their problems. It ain't ever the case.
I didn't watch the Oprah interview, but I saw him on Larry King. I have zippo sympathy for him. He may not be demozining gays, but he still considers it a sin, and still considers himself "heterosexual with issues." I also know enough about public relations to see that Haggard the Salesman is simply moving himself into a position to return to ministry, etc. He and his wife (who is also sadly going along with this sham) plan to take to the road to "tell a story that needs to be told." What story is that? A closeted gay man who is lying to himself and his family, or one of a man who needs ot drive away his sinful demons?
If Ted would haave simply left the spotlight and dealt with his pain privately, I would have had a lot more respect. But he is purposely making this a media event to sell a documentary (and probably a book at some point). I don't doubt that being caught in this lie wasn't tough for him; but does any one honestly believe he is sorry for his actions - or just sorry about being caught?
Reared unchurched but having read the King James Bible to try to get where Christians come from, I still don't get where fundamentalists find justification for their cruelty to gays.
I do get Haggard's shame is as much the fault of our culture as his religion. His need to cash in on notoriety that ended his career is just another reason to feel sorry for him. At least, he's not asking for a federal bailout.
*snort*
I have a different take than most of you. I saw his HBO documentary, then read the CNN transcript.
Before that, I just knew about him from the headlines. BTW, turning on HBO, I was convinced I was going to watch some sort of classic evangelical con artist and have snarky fun with it. Instead, I came away with a lot of respect for the guy.
As far as remaining married, I sense there is a deep love between he and his wife. Being gay complicates, but certainly doesn't nullify, that love.
Second, his is a classic tragic story of a middle aged man in crisis. Many fall, for various reasons. His own fall has been particularly scandalous for reasons we all recognize. It would appear his church--one that preaches forgiveness of sin-- has abandoned him. Sure, it is his fault, but still, nasty stuff. Yet, what he seems to be doing in all of this, as public as it is, is to rebuild his self-respect and sense of dignity.
He's recovering better than a lot of middle aged guys I've seen go through similar tragedies, who end up wallowing in self-pity and self-loathing.
I've come to admire his courage. I never thought I'd say that about one of these self-righteous evangelicals, whose hypocrisy stains our culture like no other.
Sorry, Blader, I simply don't see that. Ted is still very much full of self-loathing because of his sexuality - he told Larry he would "never ever" give into these sinful feeling he keeps having about men. The fact he doesnt want to admit what just about anyone in the gay community recognizes - that he is one of us - means that he isn't being honest at all.
Instead, he is using old tired chestnuts like "I was molested as a kid" (yes, he said that on Oprah) or this is all about sin. It is utterly insulting and condescending to those of us who have been through such trauma, and haven't demonized other people in the process.
As for loving his wife, that I don't doubt. I was engaged, and loved my fiancee - would have done anything for her. But it was a casual sort of love, the kind you reserve for a friend, not your life partner. It's also a standard answer I hear from the many Teds that wander into my bar: I can't be gay because I love my wife.
I do agree with you on his church - they certainly practiced a less-than-Christian attitude, but this also is Ted's legacy. He ocnditioned them for this sort of response, even wrote strict moral rules about the conduct of members. Did he expect another reaction? If I was a member of this church, I also would want an investigation into the current leadership, who basically paid a bribe to a young man to keep him quiet. (Yes, I know for counseling and schooling - $180,000 worth?) Maybe this sort of dishonesty is a given at New Hope (cue the irony on that title),
Ted's million-wattage smile is that of a used car dealer trying to sell you a little beauty with only 200,000 miles - and only driven by a little old lady on Sundays. So call me cynical, but I don't get one feeling that Ted is looking for redemption, but simply some way to make money off of his grief. Maybe a reality show is his next step.
Relative to his appearance on Larry King, it should be noted that Mr. King asked him if he had had a relationship with other men besides the two who have gone public and he refused to answer the question.
Greetings, Thanks for the posts. I suggest that another issue is that interviewers let Ted Haggard and others off too easy and accept stupid answers. Would they accept an answer of not responding to hetersexual urges as a result of therapy? Would they not ask why he went back and back to the same person? (love, affection,
desire???) Would they not be skeptical that these gay behaviors of recent origin were only the tip of the iceberg? God Bless Oprah and Larry King, but they dont have the capacity to doggedly go after stupid answers and push for something of substance in regards to gay issues.