At JFK this morning, about to fly out west. Half-hung over from my man's 35th birthday party down at Sylvia's Too on 126th (I think). I'm feeling sort of out of it, and just stupid enough to make an obvious prediction--the Steelers will melt faces. Love the Kurt Warner comeback. I always felt bad about his thumb betraying him. But I think the Steelers are just too much. I'm going to pick a good defense over a good offense every time. Should they win, this will be Rothlisberger's second Super Bowl. So weird, because I've never thought of him as a great quarterback. Good. But never great. Go figure.
UPDATE: I think Cardinals better find a defense. Quick.
UPDATE#2: Sorry guys, I'm a hotel room watching this. God damn that was a great catch by Ben Patrick. I love seeing a cat fight for the ball like that.
UPDATE#3: This is shaping up to be a damn good game. I actually like the commercials too. I'm tempted to go to the local pub and watch it with some other folks. But I like hearing the game. Still, there's something weird about watching the Super Bowl solo.
UPDATE#4: My god. That Harrison run back was incredible--even if it isn't a touchdown. Folks should remember that that isn't a cornerback or safety, but a linebacker.
UPDATE#5: Had the mute button on for Bruce Springsteen. Musical bigotry dies hard. Then I saw BabylonSista's comment and took the mute off. My loss. Dude is mashing fools.
UPDATE#6: That roughing call was all weaksauce, and no catfish. Ugh. Let the players play. On another note, the Steelers just want it more.
UPDATE#7: More weaksauce. Man I hate these QB rules. That should be a sack. Whatever happened to needing a receiver in the area? Did I misunderstand that rule? Did they change it? Meanwhile, the Cardinals are just playing stupid.
UPDATE#8: Great catch. Larry doing what Larry does. As a sidenote, I've become so fucking conditioned to athletes coming up out of the hood, that I was shocked to see my man's Pops was a journalist.
UPDATE#9: Big, big sack. Man, we've got a game...
UPDATE#10: Man, we are going into "great" territory for this game. Pretty incredible.
UPDATE#11: My lord. Kurt Warner making a HoF bid.
UPDATE#12: Gained a ton of respect for Rothlisberger today. He has some sick footwork in the pocket. That said, bad day to be in the Cardinals secondary. How do you get beat twice by the same dude? With three Cardinals there?
UPDATE#13: Great effort by Warner. But no question the better team won.
The Beautiful Struggle: A Father, Two Sons, and an Unlikely Road to Manhood 
Copyright © 2009 by The Atlantic Monthly Group. All rights reserved.
My best friend was a huge Steeler fan and he died last summer. He was also passionate about Obama, Springsteen & The Florida Gators. We know how those things turned out.
Don't bet against the Steelers today. My friend is clearly pulling the strings.
First super-bowl in a while where there hasn't been a clear "conventional wisdom" pick...maybe the stillers because of the "D-fence wins championships"-meme...but im still not convinced...for betting purposes it's a frakkin' headscratcher...whut to do, whut to do?!
Roethlisberger is about to become another part of the 'rings don't matter, Marino was the greatest QB of all time' argument. We know and admit that great defenses and solid running games can carry mediocre QBs to rings; so why can't we admit that bad defenses and poor running games can keep great QBs away from the trophy. Or to put it another way: people argue that Elway is a better QB than Marino not because of anything Elway actually did, but because Elway was lucky enough to play alongside Terell Davis. And some dumb people are now going to make the same argument about Rothlisberger; hopefully that argument will be so obviously wrong that it'll discredit the first one a bit too.
(And of course you have to pick Pittsburgh; their defense is just too good, and Arizona's season just too flukey, to do anything else. But of course on any given Sunday, strange things can happen.)
The Cardinals quit on the field against the Patriots in December. They lay down, and took a 47-7 beating. Why? Because without any immediate advantage to winning, they couldn't be bothered to play.
No team with that little pride is ever going to win a Super Bowl. I just don't believe it can happen.
I'll buy the "rings make QB's great" when the same thing is said about offensive linemen, safeties, etc, are judged by the same standard.
It must be said, however, that the man who immediately placed himself in the pantheon after winning a ring is Keyshawn Johnson. A slightly better than average receiver and universal blow hard who thinks a ring validates him.
Nope. Not even close.
But for today: Steelers force a minimum of three turnovers and win by 17.
Absolutely agree with luis. Marino was so far out of everyone's league while he was at the top of his game; he just never had a great running game (although they tried sometimes), and only had a decent (and only decent) when he was on the downside of his career. It's also worth noting Marino made his receivers amazing, not the other way around. With Warner, it's worth noting he never had the success without Bruce/Holt or now Fitzgerald/Boldin. With Roethlisberger, Ward is a great receiver and he has a fantastic running game. He holds the ball way too long to ever really be great. He's got a great line and a great defense, which means he never has to do too much to win. Oh, and KevDog, as a Bucs fan, I couldn't agree more about Keyshawn.
Question: Are there any quarterbacks who have won two Super Bowls who aren't in the HOF?
Nice WoW reference there. :)
dwhite: The only multi-ringed QBs I can think of who aren't in the HOF are Tom Brady (still active) and Jim Plunkett (Raiders '80 and '83). And Plunkett's not likely to get in.
As for Roethlisberger, there's nothing wrong with just being good. Terry Bradshaw was just good, not great, and he won 4 Super Bowls.
[talking out of my ass]And I think being so great harmed Marino's chances of winning a title. His team never committed to implementing a good running game, cause who needs it when you got Marino?[/talking out of my ass]
Some would argue that Terry Bradshaw was not a great quarterback, very good but not great.
He can't ever be a great quarterback because he has a linebacker's name.
"Roger Staubach" sounds pretty linebackery, too.
Not as good as "Dick Butkus" or "Chuck Bednarik," true, but a lot more linebackery than frat-boy QB names like "London Fletcher" or "Shawne Merriman."
Is it bad to say that I'm rooting for the Steelers because their coach is black like me? That probably isn't post-racial is it?
Oh well. Go Steelers!
The steelers' line is actually pretty bad, as is their running game. I'll give you the defense and receivers, though.
I'm going to pick a good defense over a good offense every time.
-----------------------------------------------
Assuming good means equal, this is spoken like a true non-athlete. Any competitor knows that GOOD OFFENSE beats GOOD DEFENSE everytime.
Don't believe me? Setup the same chess alogrithm for both black and white, and watch white (offense) win everytime.
k1
ryanculver.blogspot.com
If we can compare chess to football, then I'm allowed to point out that in tic-tac-toe, a good defense is unbeatable.
Liza...definitly ok, definitly not post-racial...but again, who wants to be? I want Tomlin to win because i think he's done somewhat what Obama has...First AA at his particular job in pittsburg...starting of great, being a GOOD guy, a young hungry head-coach, who's come up...but then again, wisenhunt is a great coach too...but not as cool, calm and collected as coach Tomlin.
Tens of millions aren't tuning in to watch a chess match, buddy.
Also, I'm bemused that you would call someone out for being a non-athlete and then establish your fced by programming an algorithm.
Ack, "cred." iPhone typing is a new skill for me.
I wonder if anyone commenting here has actually watched the steelers/roethlisberger on a regular basis.
A couple points:
1) His line has been atrocious since 2005 (and frankly, until the Bears game of that year they weren't particularly good either). The running game has been worthless against good defenses since... well way before roethlisberger was on the team.
2) Ward is a great football player and as far as being 'clutch' has any meaning at all he is. However, he is not a great receiver (especially given the metric you want to use for quarterbacks). The rest of the receiving corps are objectively slightly above average but can not be considered great.
3) Ben does hold the ball longer than other quarterbacks, but its hardly 'too long'. He does take more sacks, which may affect his longevity, but he also makes more plays once his protection has broken down than anyone in the game (and with this line it breaks down faster than most other teams with quarterbacks considered good).
4) K1: I'm sorry but that does not hold in football. I don't want to spend longer than I have to, but for an offense to work well all 11 players need to execute well enough. For the defense to make a play you only need a couple player to beat their man.
5) Are you honestly trying to say that the only way you can be a great quarterback is to be as good as Marino? Roethlisberger is a great quarterback, his YPA is 7.86 for his career. every QB who has averaged that or better in his career is in the HoF except the two active QBs: roethlisberger and warner.
The game will turn on how well the Cardinals' defense plays, especially if they can get the Steelers to turn the ball over.
However, the idea that there is no clear pick seems strange to me. The Steelers have had an excellent season and come into the game with a Super Bowl worthy defense, even if they have had no worhty opponents during the tournament.
The Cardinals, on the other hand are 9-7 team, who did have one worthy opponent during the tournament--whose quarterback had a disasterous day, got here beating Carolina, it's true, but equally underwhelming Atlanta and the Eagles, who backed into the playoffs because of Dallas' unseemly choke. The Cardinals have had Fitzgerald and Boldin for years; they're fun to watch, but I have a hard time believing they are a match for the far sounder Steelers.
As a 49er fan, I personally hope the Steelers go down, and as fan that has set aside time to watch the game, I hope it is close, suspenseful, but at this point, I predict 38-10 Pittsburgh.
Like the Warner story, think Fitzgerald's the best reciever in football, and think Boldin's got real guts for still running routes over the middle after having his face destroyed in the Jets game. But without a real running game, I don't see how the Cards have an answer for the Steeler's linebackers, who are going to put in some work against the Card's wide receivers. I think Arizona's only shot is if they get ahead early and force Big Ben to pass to win (what was his rating in last Superbowl, 20?). Otherwise, the Steelers can grind it out offensively, use a ton of clock, and wait for Warner to force passes to his receivers. Steelers by 10.
Rothlisberger is not a great quarterbook. He's a good quarterback---and certainly good enough to not make mistakes and lead his team to a second super bowl against what I consider to be a depleted squad.
Count me as one of those guys who thinks they'll handle Arizona today. I really don't think the Cards belong in this game. I know, I know, I've seen what Fitzgerald and Warner have done the last few outings. But I think they'll be shown up today, and the Steelers are too tough and too physical for them. The Cards were 9-7 and suffered 4 big time blowouts against serious and physical teams during the regular season. And they really should have lost to the Eagles two weeks ago. They don't belong in the big dance, and their uppance will come.
(Plus Kurt Warner is a crazy right wing nut and his defeat will we don't have to hear the Jesus spiel.)
A thought about rings and greatness. Like all things, there is no one size that fits all. I was awol for the NFL in the Pittsburgh years, so I never witnessed Bradshaw, but there can be no doubt 4 super bowl rings has enhanced his reputation, just as Aikman's 3, in my opinion even given his very talented teammates, lifts him a hair above Steve Young, in that regard.
However Montana and Brady are in a different category. What makes them superior to their respective generation of qbs--why Montana was a far greater qb than Marino, and Brady better so far than Peyton Manning--is their big game cred.
In the 49ers heyday, they did have a starting tackle, Steve Wallace, who didn't ever make the probowl, but he put the greatest pass rushers to sleep every January, and sofar as I am concerned that made him the best left tackle of his era. On the other hand, one would be hard pressed to believe Trent Dilfer was ever anything more than a journeyman. Rothlisberger, if he wins, will be credited and if he wins more than one more, considered great if not in the very highest echelons.
I have one word:
Polamalu!
Only twice have teams on their first trips to the SB beaten teams that have won the SB before - the Ravens beating the Giants in 2001 and the Bucs beating the Raiders in 2003.
On that alone, I'm guessing the Card's carriage is about to go pumpkin. I'd like to see otherwise, but doubt I will.
Just a quick point about Rothlisberger in my opinion. What is one of the major points people talking about when discussing Donovan McNabb and debating how good he is or not? The fact that he doesn't have a big time reciever. Now remember that two years ago Big Ben lost his go to guy Plaxico who many people here and other places said was the reason the Giants lost in the playoffs this year because he wasnt there. Also in the last two years the running game has been up and down because of injuries (I believe last season they had to sign a guy off the street one week to start one week). Even back in his first two years the Bus was starting his decline and Willie P was just getting started. I love Hines Ward but also believe he is a better football player than pure wide reciever and really Santonio is just now coming into his own in the second half of this season. And don't get me started on their porous Offensive Line. He takes a beating all the time.
So to sum it up when we say Big been is average or less are we taking into account the talent around him or not? Because to me that does make a difference. Is Kurt Warner who he is with our Rev Ike and Torry Holt? , Is Marino who he was with out the Marks brothers? Is Favre who he is without Sharpe, Freeman, and Driver? I am not saying Big Ben is a world beater but I don't think he has had just an assload of talent around him either.
Big Ben, right now, is comparable to Dilfer: a game manager who keeps things moving enough for his team's superior defense to win the game. He's more mobile than Dilfer, certainly, and he can chuck it downfield when he needs to, but his first SB run was made on the back of the running game and a good D. This year Fast Willie hasn't given him the run support he had when the Bus was still rolling, but the D has been even better.
Ben is a solid QB, make no mistake, but his career passer rating is actually just under Chad Pennington's; if he's going to make the HoF, he's got some work to do.
Luckily, he's only in his fifth year--he's got time to do that work.
Right now, Ben is a good quarterback (I am a Steeler fan who has watched all but 4 of his games since he entered the league).
However, he has progressed every year and the potential to be a great QB is absolutely there. Yes, the defense has been tremendous, but he has shown the ability to make the throws this year in close games down the stretch...with no running game and gaping holes in the O-Line.
I love the intangibles about him more than anything else. He does not throw teammates under the bus. After the Indy game this year where he threw 3 huge picks that lost that game, he stood up and put that one on himself. The motorcycle accident was, in my opinion, a watershed moment for his career (how could it not be, right?). Luckily, it appears to be for the better. He is the leader of this team now and shows it on the field every week. This is only his 5th season. He will be back to the Super Bowl again.
Are Freeman or Driver even worth commenting about without Favre? Montana's first superbowl team had Dwight Clark, a very good journeyman, but that was it. Yes later on, Montana had Rice and the ever underrrated John Taylor, not to mention Roger Craig and a raft of very good tight ends, but he made all of them better. And who exactly did Elway ever throw to? Yes, Randy Moss came to the Pats last year, but you can't tell me that the Brady bunch are anything to speak of; none of them have had Hines' career.
Marino on the other hand was a different deal. He was an excellent passer, and the Mark smurfs were not really all that great, but Marino was also a one dimensional qb, and I would argue as such, Dan Fouts, similarly an all arm guy, was actually better, though I get the Marino love.
Rothlisberger has perhaps suffered from a lack of talent, though Hines Ward is also a far better receiver than Freeman or Driver when the chips are down; there is something about playing with poise in the Super Bowl, in the post season, that correctly lifts one's reputation. Conversely, McNabb's and Terrel Owens' reputations have been tarnished, the latter a bit more unfairly, for the lack thereof. In a previous post a lot of the thread was given to statistics being the yardstick of greatness; the big statistic in football, however, is winning. Rothlisberger is still young; we shall see what we shall see.
Comparing Ben to Dilfer is complete nonsense. He has more wins as a starting quarterback in first 5 NFL seasons than any other quarterback ever. More playoff wins in his first 5 seasons than any other quarterback except Brady. He's 7th all-time in passer rating (89.4) and yards per attempt (7.86). To compare him to Dilfer, who had a career 70.2 passer rating, is just stupid.
Agreed dwhite. Ben is much better than Dilfer ever was (again, I say this growing up in Tampa during the 90s). Dilfer couldn't be trusted to win a game; he could only be trusted not to lose them, and that was when he was at his best. Ben, while not a great quarterback, is definitely good enough to win games for his team when the running game isn't working.
Ben IS a good QB, and I didn't intend to imply otherwise. He certainly has the potential to be a great one, and an ability to win big games is something that may well end up defining his career if he keeps doing it.
But still. He's not #7 all-time in passer rating; he's tied with Drew Brees for #7 among active players.
He and Brees are #9 all-time... and #8 is Chad Pennington.
And for a bit more perspective, Daunte Culpepper is #11.
Let's hold off on the bust in Canton for a few years yet, okay?
"[Roethlisberger's] first SB run was made on the back of the running game and a good D."
Are you kidding? He was the entire reason the Steelers made it to the Super Bowl that year. The running game consisted of a broken down Bus and a still wet-behind-the-ears Parker. The defense was good, but not even close to what it is this year.
In the playoffs, Roethlisberger's QB rating was 148.7 against Cincinnati, 95.3 against Indy, and 124.9 against Denver in the Conference championship. People forget how good he was in that run because he played horribly against Seattle.
You're right, Ben is #9 all time. Dilfer is #139 all time. I think you can agree that comparing Ben to Dilfer is silly, right?
The Cardinals will win 24-17 and Kurt Warner will be the game's MVP. The only face melted today will be Coates.
Tom Daschle will withdraw his nomination.
Dan Marino, Dan Fouts, Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, Fran Tarkenton, Ken Stabler, Kenny Anderson, Vinne Testaverde, Bernie Kossar, Doug Flutie, Joe Thiesman, Ron Jaworski, Steve McNair, Boomer Esiason, Phil Simms, Randall Cunningham, and Bert Jones were all much better QBs than Big Ben Rothlisberger will ever dream of being. Rothlisberger is simply more lucky than talented.
As a Steeler fan, you all can talk about how good/great/not good Ben is. (It's spelled Roethlisberger by the way) If he had a good line and good WRs (even without a running game) I think he would put up 30-35 TDs most years. But bottom line, he isn't a great pure passer. He is just a very good football player who finds ways to win. His record is very good, and he has a knack for leading drives late in the game to pull out a victory. Only a guy like him could play behind this poor o-line, take that beating, and escape the rush because he is so big and hard to bring down. At times it's ugly, at times he waits too long. I'll admit, (and most Steeler fans would too)I'm nervous when he airs it out. But when he finds that guy and gets that 50 yard play out of nowhere, it's pretty exciting. I'm fine with that so long as he keeps the winning tradition alive. I don't care about the HOF, just Super Bowls!
Homer pick: Steelers 31 Cardinals 20
It will be close throughout the first half, then the Steelers pull away in the second when we start getting to Warner and wearing their defense down cuz Willie will have room to run I think. If not...Cards fans I'm ready for the verbal onslaught. Are there any Cards fans on here by the way?
kosar? testaverde? flutie? jaworksi? anderson? mcnair?
thanks for the laugh, the anxiety was starting to build up in anticipation.
stein,
1:20 to go in the 4th quarter with no timeouts left, my team trailing by 5 points, and starting on it's own 5 yrd line, I'd take
Dan Marino, Dan Fouts, Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, Fran Tarkenton, Ken Stabler, Kenny Anderson, Vinne Testaverde, Bernie Kossar, Doug Flutie, Joe Thiesman, Ron Jaworski, Steve McNair, Boomer Esiason, Phil Simms, Randall Cunningham, Bert Jones and among active QB's Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Philip Rivers, Matt Leinart, Kurt Warner, Donovan McNabb, and Jay Cutler in a heartbeat over Big Ben Roethlisberger to drive my team into the endzone.
If you knew the first fricking thing about football, you'd take any of these former and current QB's over Roethlisberger for the final drive of the 4th quarter to lead your time down the field for a touchdown to win the game.
The Steelers' last run to the SB:
Regular season: Big Ben throws for 2300 yards, 17 TDs, and 9 INTs, earning a 98.6 passer rating (good for 3rd in the league, behind Peyton and Carson Palmer), but is not in the top ten in yardage or TDs.
Parker runs for over 1200 yards (11th in the NFL) and 4 TDs, Bettis logs 368 and 9 TDs (8th in the NFL), and overall the team is 5th in the NFL in rushing yardage; by contrast, Pittsburgh is 24th in passing yards.
The D is 3rd in scoring defense, 3rd in rushing D, 16th in passing D.
Wild card vs. Cincy: 31-17. Ben's definitely a big contributor here--208 yards, 3 TDs. Parker, Bettis, and Verron Haynes combine for 136 yards and a TD. Jon Kitna throws 2 picks and the Bungles total
2nd round vs. Indy: 21-18. Ben throws for 2 TDs, 1 INT, and 197 yards. Not great, not bad, but his biggest play by far is the shoestring tackle of Nick Harper after Bettis's fumble. Parker and Bettis combine for 105 yards and a TD. The Colts are held to 58 yards rushing. Peyton Manning throws for 290 yards, but only 1 TD and a 2-point conversion.
AFC Championship vs. Denver: 34-17. Ben's best playoff game, with 275 yards and 2 TD passes, plus a rushing score. Parker and Bettis get 74 yards and a TD. Jake Plummer contributes 2 INTs to the Steeler cause.
SB vs. Seattle: 21-10. Ben's QB rating was a record low: 22.6. He threw 2 INTs and was only 9 of 21 for 123 yards, but did get a rush for a score. The only TD pass Pittsburgh got was Antawn Randle El's pass to MVP Hines Ward. The Steeler D picked off Seattle once and got three sacks. Parker and Bettis ran for 146 yards and a TD.
To sum up: Ben had a good regular season statistically, but the team's yardage and points were produced primarily by the running game, while the defense kept the O from having to score too much. In the playoffs, Ben had two good games, a middling game, and a game so bad it set a new record low. He was certainly a big contributor, but it's arguable that the biggest reasons for the Steelers' SB win were a 75-yard sprint by Willie Parker, a trick pass from Randle El to Ward, a D that held the league MVP (Shaun Alexander) in check, and some helpful calls by the officials.
As for the Dilfer comparison, I'm really just pointing out that each has one ring so far. If you'd prefer, I can compare him to Mark Rypien or Jeff Hostetler.
Don't even start with that "If you knew the first fricking thing about football" horseshit. Your opinion is your own.
Now, as for the situation under discussion, I would take some of those QB's ahead of Roethlisberger but some of them are just ridiculous. Testaverde? Rivers? Cutler? Cunningham? Flutie? Leinart? GTFOH
When it comes to directing game winning drives in the 4th quarter, Montana and Elway are by far the best. Neither of them are mentioned above!!!
Paul Gilmartin,
With regards to directing game winning drives in the 4th quarter, I didn't mention Montana and Elway because I thought they were TOO OBVIOUS!!!
Of course, I'd take Montana and Elway over Roethlisberger with 1:20 left in the 4th quarter. Other OBVIOUS QBs I'd take over Roethlisberger to direct a game winning drive are Roger Staubach, Brett Favre, Troy Aikman, Steve Young, Johnny Unitas, and Bart Starr.
Testaverde, Rivers, Cutler, Cunningham, Flutie, and Leinart are all better pure passers and more accurate than Roethlisberger.
Roethlisberger is just surrounded by more talented teammates.
Roethlisberger is more lucky than skillful
Everybody is to high on the Steelers. Go Cardinals
Turning point is which quarterback goes down under the 86 defensive scheme. You know the one where both of the Patriots quarterbacks quit during after the Superbowl w/ the Bears.
For those just tuning in,
Former and current QBs, I'd take over Ben Roethlisberger with 1:20 in the 4th quarter, no timeouts left, trailing by 5 points, and starting on my own 5 yrd line:
Joe Montana, John Elway, Roger Staubach, Brett Favre, Troy Aikman, Steve Young, Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr, Dan Marino, Dan Fouts, Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, Fran Tarkenton, Ken Stabler, Kenny Anderson, Vinne Testaverde, Bernie Kossar, Doug Flutie, Joe Thiesman, Ron Jaworski, Steve McNair, Boomer Esiason, Phil Simms, Randall Cunningham, Bert Jones, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Philip Rivers, Matt Leinart, Kurt Warner, Donovan McNabb, and Jay Cutler
JK, it takes a lot more than being a "pure passer" to direct a game winning drive. That's the problem with these hypothetical situations, are we talking talent, desire, team-mates?
As I said, Ben wouldn't be my first choice in a "backs-to-the-wall" situation, but I'm still confident he could get it done. I certainly wouldn't be groaning and thinking "we're screwed!", the way I would if someone like Dilfer was my qb!
In two consecutive weeks, I saw the Cardinals defense—particularly the secondary—destroy Jake Delhomme's career and shut down Philly.
In the two weeks since, I have heard about the Steelers' D, the Cardinals' O, the Steelers' O, and all the other mindless SB-runup garbage.
Not a word about the AZ D. Not even in this thread, despite the fact that it's centering around Roethlisberger's skills at QB.
So if everybody's gonna ignore them, I'm gonna ride them. Cards by 4, 21-17. Both teams combine for least 5 turnovers in this game.
And if Pittsburgh's smart, they'll run the ball.
Arizona 24-20.
Ben is very good, he's just never asked to be great, in the way Kurt Warner will be asked to today. But he wins, and that's what counts.
Has there been a recent Super Bowl pitting two QBs with rings against each other?
Should be fun...
All the talk about Larry Fitzgerald, but IMO this game will come down to Kurt Warner vs. Troy Polamalu.
JK's just a troll who's opinion isn't worth arguing with.
Cash, I don't think anyone argues that Ben was the reason they won Super Bowl XL (btw, his passer rating in that game was a record low for a winning qb, not a record low period).
But by almost any measure, been is an excellent QB. If you go by passer rating, he has a great passer rating. If you go by wins, he has more wins than anybody at this stage in his career. If you go by playoff performance, he's won more playoff games than anyone but Brady at this stage in his career.
But since the Steelers system, going back to the Chuck Noll days, has relied on a tough running game and a punishing defense, it's not necessary for the QB to put up 300-400 yard games to win. And people don't see Ben as an elite QB because he's not throwing for insane number of yards.
Foulness,
The last SB that featured two QBs with rings was Raiders vs. Redskins back in the 80s.
This Superbowl feels too much like Ravens-Giants. Boring buildup, mismatch on paper. Kurt Warner isn't Kerry Collins though, so you never know.
I'd put the odds at 9:1 chance that the Steelers win.
dwhite10701,
"JK's just a troll who's opinion isn't worth arguing with"
Whoa, what a lofty, intellectually enlightened response! You the man dwhite10701!
I've been a diehard fan and tv viewer of football since 1971, so who do you think you are calling me a troll?
If you had as much motivation, energy, common sense, or brains as you have bad attitude(any fool can label someone else a troll if they're too lazy to debate the merits of their post), you'd discover that all the QBs I've listed had better career stats than Roethlisberger in most of the key ares.
Bottom Line - Roethlisberger just happens to be in the right place at the right time surrounded by extremely talented teammates.
If some of the QBs I mentioned like Dan Fouts, Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, Fran Tarkenton, Kenny Anderson, Vinne Testaverde, Bernie Kossar, Ron Jaworski, Steve McNair, Boomer Esiason, Randall Cunningham, and Bert Jones were surrounded by the talent Roethlisberger is surrounded with, they'd all have multiple Super Bowl rings.
Back to Cuban Linx, there's a great great new song from Rae and Ghost you should hear, TNC:
http://www.zshare.net/audio/54948783f6184804/
scythia
Just wanted to point out the Arizona Cardinals gave up the lead in the third quarter against the Eagles after being up a bunch and they allowed Donovan McNabb to throw 3 tds and damn near 400 yds in the air mostly to a Tight End that nobody has ever heard of. Im just sayin. I really like the Cardinals but I think the Steelers rush Linebackers are going to crush Warner. And the X factor is Santonio on punt returns.
Steelers over Cards 34-21
wow
what a game! I think that runback deserves the game MVP award, barring some sort of heroic performance by someone else in the second half. Wow.
The Cardinals are throwing this game. It's pathetic to see how little intensity they've shown. If this is the best the Cardinals have to offer, they should have stayed home.
After this performance, I can confidently reveal my crush on Bruce Springsteen...because that is one sexy old white man. He can move, too...damn.
But Mr. Clarence is looking like Bishop Don the Sax Playing Juan right about now.
U2, The Rolling Stones, Paul McCartney, Tom Petty, and Bruce Springsteen
When it comes to showcasing musical acts 25 years past their prime, nobody can beat the NFL.
Who will they get next year, Bob Dylan, Brian Wilson, Paul Simon, The Who, The Kinks?
Application/questionaire for Super Bowl half-time acts:
Age:
Race:
Correct ansawers are: 40+, and caucasian
Good game so far. That interception/runback was ridiculous. I'm a Steeler fan, but the Cards are still scaring me.
PS I doubt this game will even come close to matching last night's Nadal/Federer rumble. UFC ain't got sh*t on tennis!!
Man, the Cardinals seem more interested in being thugs than, you know, winning. Did they get some of their senior Senator's campaign staff?
TV off.
Suckfest? Check.
Crappy officiating? Check.
Al Michaels is orange? Check.
No Favre mentions from Madden however.
Correct ansawers are: 40+, and caucasian
Prince tore up the joint two years back. Made the rest of the game irrelevant. Plus I seem to remember a tiny bit of fuss about Janet Jackson's act a couple of years before that. But you are right about the 40+ part. No, wait - I forgot about Gwen Stefani.
Kurt Warner is definitely my favorite Christian.
This whole game is a series of penalties.
What do you say now, JK? I'm rooting for the Cards, but seeing you get proven so very wrong is has probably made me happier. Especially after telling someone they don't know shit about football.
So, would you take Ben for a game-winning drive now?
No rooting interest here---that last Warner pass was AN INCOMPLETE PASS, not a fumble. They are glad to waste 15 minutes of my life reviewing these in the preseason. Why so quick now? Not like the Cards had much chance on the next play, but give me a break. What a crummy ending to an other wise good game (in spite of atrocious refereeing throughout)
"After this performance, I can confidently reveal my crush on Bruce Springsteen...because that is one sexy old white man. He can move, too...damn."
Me too Sista...me too:-)
That was seriously the most exciting SB I've seen. Also, for all the talk about Roethlisberger the guy has 2 rings in his first five years in the NFL. Who else has done that?
He may not put up crazy ridiculous numbers, but he doesn't have to. Being a great QB is not just about the stats. Its about being whatever your team needs you to be when they need you to be it. Ben does that. Period.
PA ALL THE WAY!!!
How do you not review that last play?
Big Ben has two rings on his fingers, the Boss has played for fifteen zillion people within two weeks, and we are 9-to-5ers who are entitled to conversate and opinionate about them.
Which is fine. We should try and make sense though.
(The boss rocked, Clarence looked like he was just brought from the wax museum, but good, and I noticed that even the consegliere of the Jersey mafia was up there.)
And that was a dramatic game. Too much officiating for my tastes, I feel queasy with refs being that important in the outcome. The most important call was that safety when everybody thought the Steelers had a first down, and I still have to be convinced.
So yeah, that was a sick game. But, for all the great plays, it's hard for me to escape the feeling that the game really turned on penalties and challenged officiating. Football outcomes, more than those in just about any other game, seem to be about penalty calls and refereeing. It runs on a judicial system, rather than a more integrated system of justice like baseball.
Stacy,
The referees handed this game over to the Pittsburgh Steelers. Don't give me your nonsense about me being proven wrong.
Those penalties against the Cardinals were absolutely, positively bogus and you effing know it.
I predicted if the Steel Curtain 2.0 held Arizona to 20 or fewer points, which to me meant holding Fitzgerald under 100 years and only 1 TD, the Steelers would win. My guess was 20 - 17. It was penalty prone sloppy game, but I'll take a 27 - 24 win any day. Coach Tomlin summed it up. The Steelers play 60 minutes of football. It ain't pretty but they played 60 minutes. You can't be 9-7 in the regular season and come to the big game and only play 26 minutes of football (Most of the 2nd Quarter and 7 minutes in the 4th Quarter).
To all the Big Ben haters. You all can shut the frack up now. He gave you all what you thought he could not, a 4th Quarter comeback win in the biggest of all games. And he really had only one receiver, MVP Santonio Holmes. Hines-Ward was definitely not 100% and hobbled by a knee brace. So, give Big Ben his props and stop the hateration.
Now Rooney gets to shake hands with Obama at The White House and present him with the game ball. Tomlin goes down as the youngest coach to win the Super Bowl. And the Steelers earn the top spot with the most Super Bowl wins at 6 out of 7 attempts and thereby restoring order to the universe. I'll never forgive Neil O'Donnell (Sith Lord disguised as a Jedi) for the 2 interceptions in the Super Bowl XXX loss to ruin our perfect SB record and at the same time giving the Cowgirls a 5th. It was almost like he intentionally threw the game becoming a brokeback cowboy for the rest of his career.
I am one happy mofo right now. And if Brady makes a comeback and gets the Pats another ring in 2010, all will be right in football. What can I say, I'm a Beantown cat who grew up loving the Steelers because of the blue collar grit of the town and team. That's caused me some consternation in the last decade. But except for the 1984-85 season, the Pats sucked for most of the first 25 years after the merger.
wow....i was totally underwhelmed by the first half...I actually fell asleep and missed the long run back before the half.....but was on the edge of my seat by the end of it all....what a finish!
I'm sure victory is sweet for the Steelers, but it just didn't seem very satisfying or convincing?
On another note, I wonder why people are so opinionated about sports?
The only thing worse than sore losers are sore winners.
A couple things:
A terrific game. That's two close and well played Super Bowls in a row. Is this a trend? Parity?
1. Maybe I'm just a sourpuss, but the commercials were really bad this year. I think there was a career builder one where a guy punches a koala and a Doritos commercial that were kind of funny. But the rest were forgettable. A lot of slapstick and guys falling on stuff and getting hit in the head - not my type of humor.
2. I'm sorry, but on the one Pittsburgh scoring drive in the third quarter with the 3 Arizona unnecessary roughness calls, I just want to say that those three unnecessary roughness calls were bad calls. They were borderline, it was clear that the defenders had momentum and there was no way to stop. I mean, when you are big and fast and strong it is really hard to just stop. Most of the time, those penalties would not have been called.
3. What does "mashing fools" mean?
4. I seem to remember Dr. Z (from Sports Illustrated) wrote about in the Rams/Titans Super Bowl how the Rams scored too quickly and allowed the Titans to come back and almost score the winning touchdown. I think the same can be said for this game. I don't mean to take away a terrific touchdown run by Larry Fitzgerald (the best Irish football player in the NFL ;op), but I think Arizona scored too quickly on their last scoring drive and should have ate more clock time. They allowed too much time for Pittsburgh to come back and score.
5. lions fan, as a Raider fan, I agree with you. That last play was an incomplete pass. Again, it's not like the Cardinals were going to score, but it's a bad way to end the game.
6. All this talk about QBs. ALL quarterbacks rely on their offense and their offensive system. I mean, put Ben Roethlisberger (however you spell his name) on the Raiders and he's going to suck. But he works well in the Steelers' system, and that is all that mattered tonight.
7. You know, I have never really liked Super Bowl halftime shows. You can not really get a good performance in 12-15 minutes. Especially when you have stars who are 25 years past their prime and are trying to fit in all of their classics. I think they should just have a battle of college bands.
7(a). Also, that was the oldest looking mosh pit I have ever seen.
8. I really don't like when NBC broadcasts football games. Maybe it's just because I can't really stand Al Michaels. But I really hate when they have the football players themselves say their name and college. It really annoys me when the players say the name of their high school or something else instead of the name of their university.
9. I HATE the Steelers.
10. Finally, I want to say that this was a terrific game. After the Steelers scored on their opening drive, I thought the game was over because they just steamrolled the Cardinals. I think the Cardinals only got three plays in the first period. For the Cardinals to come back when they were down by 13 in the fourth quarter shows a lot of heart on their part. And the Steelers played tough too.
JK: Weak. A great game, but those Cards penalties were on the money. They cracked under pressure, plain and simple. Don't give us the "we wuz robbed!" line. Please. Steelers started to break a bit at the end, too, but got their s**t together fast.
Cards got no depth.
Plus, how can you not hear that shout-out to "Steeler Nation" (which sounds great) and not wonder how anyone could talk about "Cardinal Nation" with a straight face. I mean, what, some exurban Scottsdale sales reps., retirees, and Warner-following right wing jeezus freeks? Let's talk some real football, shall we?
Wow what a game. I agree that there were too many penalities called on both sides but I don't think one team received noticeably preferential treatment.
Hats off to the Cards man. Although I'm a Steeler fan, the Cards really brought it more than I thought they would have if you asked me 3 weeks ago. To go from being a crappy D to being a pretty solid D during the playoffs, has to be applauded.
Ben finally did it when it mattered. And Santonio, that catch was incredible!
Doug, my bad, I forgot about Prince & Janet/Justin. I'll have to revise the questionare.
JK,
I thought there were some pretty weak calls, but BR did EXACTLY what you said he wasn't going to do. And you were so sure about it. Your excuse is some weak shit. Just admit you were wrong.
The facemask was weak, the roughing the passer was REALLY weak. I also thought Warner's arm was coming forward on the last play. Take Farrior's penalty into account, they Warner would have been throwing a bomb from around the 50 or so. I wanted to see it.
Eric,
I'm not a Cardinals fan, I'm an anti-Steelers fan.
You can brag, boast or gloat all you want about the Steelers and Steeler Nation but this game was a Grand Theft against the Cardinals!
I have to give big props to the Cardinals D, they played way better than I thought they would.
MAJOR props to Larry Fitzgerald. He came back from being held to 1 catch in the first half with some monster plays in the 4th quarter. But the play that shows you how good he is ended up being 6 points for Pittsburgh. On the interception return Fitgerald gets pushed from behind, keeps his feet, runs out of bounds, into a team mate on the sideline, keeps going and tackles Harrison but is just a shade late. Amazing hustle.
As for the officiating, there were some weak calls but they evened out. The cards had way too many penalties but most of them were holding because of the intensity of the steelers pass rush.
Ben showed what he was made of tonight. I think Santonio is deservedly the MVP but all of the naysayers talking about Ben being "lucky", we saw tonight that that's not even close. The Steelers running game was shut-down (again, props to Arizona's D) and they trailed late. Ben played majestic football on the final drive and he was pretty good the rest of the night.
BTW, the next to last play was quite clearly a fumble. Watch the replay as many times as you like and it won't change. Warner lost control of the football, managed to push it forward with his arm but that still counts as a fumble!
Steelers are the champs. Gotta love it!
Seriously, JK, were there even any penalties against the Cardinals on the Steelers' last drive? You have been stupendously wrong this evening. Its kind of pathetic you can't admit it.
The. Perfect. Superbowl. It had everything. The longest play in SB history. The biggest comeback. A safety. The Boss at halftime. Madden. Two totally clutch QBs. Two fantastic WRs. Key overturned challenges. Stupid penalties. Goal line stands. Great coaching adjustments. Questionable coaching decisions. Great special teams play. And it ended, fittingly, with a Kurt Warner fumble. It was the most thoroughly enjoyable Superbowl ever.
I think the only things missing from that game were a couple of big hits and any semblance of a running attack.
JK,
Yeah, I went and looked it up. There was one penalty on the Steeler's last drive. It was a holding penalty on the Steelers. So yes, your boy Ben literally did EXACTLY what you said he couldn't do. So admit your wrong, or don't plan on being taken seriously.
In other news, my prediction was correct. Steeler's win. Cardinals cover.
"Warner lost control of the football, managed to push it forward with his arm but that still counts as a fumble!"
I don't agree. I think his arm was coming forward before the ball got hit. I think the replay showed that. But don't worry, I'm "over it." I don't really care.
Crazy to me that the most important play of the game was a freak show of an interception/runback that was out of character fro the passer (out of sync, off target) defender (Harrison is Pass rusher who hates dropping back ) and the tackle at the end should have stopped it, but his knee landed on Fitzgerald. Wacky.
I agree with the poor opinion of the officiating in the second half.
JK,
Not buying it. Cards just didn't play a tight game, like all teams that rely too much on big plays and heroes. Iffy calls are always with us - suck it up and deal! Usually, they're close enough. Unlike Stacy, I thought the facemask was correctly called - gotta give the man on the field benefit of the doubt. The roughing call was iffy, but you gotta roll with that. Cards just couldn't let it go.
I DON'T think Warner was moving his arm forward in that last play - it was just the random movements of a rag doll getting pitched around.
Stacy,
The Steelers are a very good team and Roethlisberger actually earned his paycheck for one of the few times in his career.
Regardless of your opinion, the Steelers WERE HELPED BY RIDICULOUS, UNFAIR PENALTIES against the Cardinals.
"Regardless of your opinion, the Steelers WERE HELPED BY RIDICULOUS, UNFAIR PENALTIES against the Cardinals."
Opinion? I agreed with you about the refs. It doesn't change the fact that you were proven about as wrong as one can possibly be. Roethlisberger did EXACTLY what you said he couldn't. This came after you told another poster that he knew nothing about football. Its pretty sweet how that worked out.
Yahoo! Steeler Nation is partying in the streets tonight! Fireworks and car-horns blaring! Somehow, my kids are sleeping through it.
Shout out to the Cards-- way to get your acts together in the second half and turned this into an awesome game, although I'm glad you lost in the end!
@JK-- Sorry. You seem so unhappy and disaffected in your present state. Join us here in Steeler Nation. We welcome all-- Here, let me pass you a Terrible Towel. Yoikes and double yoikes!
Oh, Lebecka, you asked me the other day if I wanted to take back my bet. I just wanted to remind you that it worked out for the both of us.
Stacy, JK has proven all day that he's not to be taken seriously.
The Cards showed a lot of fortitude coming back like that, but as anyone who'd been watching the Steelers this season would tell you, Ben has just been on another level this year when the game is on the line at the end.
Every team that has ever lost a Super Bowl can point to 2-3 questionable calls that could have changed the outcome of the game (assuming a close game.) So can any player in football, baseball, basketball, tennis, etc. Come on, that's just the nature of sports.
BR had a 92.3 pass rating, FWIW.
Stacy, Isn't it nice when we can all be happy? With a swish of my Terrible Towel, i salute you!
Adrienne asks: "Also, for all the talk about Roethlisberger the guy has 2 rings in his first five years in the NFL. Who else has done that?" Roethlisberger was great, and it is an accomplishment to have 2 rings in 5 years.
As a shameless Patriot fan I have to note that Tom Brady had not 2 but 3 rings in his first 5 years and he only started for the last 4 of those.
Joe Montana had 2 as well, and I'm not sure who else.
First off, this was a GREAT game. Huge props to Fitzgerald. Please, Cards fans, don't pick nits about officiating, it's just LAME. Frankly, I think all of these slo-mo challenges and official reviews should be pitched out of the game. It's humans doing the calling, and sometimes it'll fall against you. One of the first things you learn in Pop Warner football is to suck it up and play on.
Madden had it right on the money with that runback: a guy makes an interception and a run like that, you give him the TD. Screw the official review.
And please, that last drive. Holmes was clutch.
Lots of players got 2 Super Bowl rings in their first 5 years (or within 5 years). Especially if you played within your first five years for: the Green Bay Packers (1966-67), Miami Dolphins (1972-73), Pittsburgh Stealers (1974-75, 78-79), San Francisco 49ers (1981 & 1984, and 1988-89); Dallas Cowgirls (1992-93, 95); Denver Mules (1997-98); New England Patriots (2001 & 2003-4). Also, you could have won 2 superbowls in 5 years if you played for the New York Giants (in both 1986 & 1990) and the Washington team (1987 & 1991).
Madden had it right on the money with that runback: a guy makes an interception and a run like that, you give him the TD. Screw the official review.
Dumbest thing I've ever heard. They don't give points for effort; they give points for getting the ball across the goal line. If you get it across you get points. If not, you don't.
"Madden had it right on the money with that runback: a guy makes an interception and a run like that, you give him the TD. Screw the official review."
This is insane. That was the dumbest thing Madden said all night, and he said a lot of dumb things. Either its a TD, or its not. You don't get a fucking "A" for effort. I am stunned that someone could come on here to voice support for that garbage.
The Cardinals were comatose for long stretches of this game. The Steelers were probably the better team, but those penalties aginst the Cardinals poured salt on the wound.
Roethlisberger's final drive was like Halley's comet. He'd have to play another 75 years to engineer another drive like the one he had tonight. For my money, he'll never be an immortal like Joe Montana, John Elway, Roger Staubach, Troy Aikman, Steve Young, Brett Favre, Tom Brady, or Peyton Manning unless he repeats tonight's performance to win another Super Bowl in the final minute.
If Peyton Manning and Tom Brady were 100% healthy for 16 games, the Steelers would not be sniffing the AFC Championship Game this year.
If Manning and Brady are 100% healthy next season, the Steelers won't get past the Colts or the Patriots in the playoffs.
"If Peyton Manning and Tom Brady were 100% healthy for 16 games, the Steelers would not be sniffing the AFC Championship Game this year."
Get out of here. Manning was the MVP this year, and played all year. They lost in the first round.
To all who answered my question, I've already covered this on my blog (click the link and show a sistah some love) and on Balloon-Juice.
I know the QBs: Brady, Montana, Aikman, and....drum roll please....Roethlisberger. It puts him in pretty awesomely limited and elite company with 3 HoF QBs. The argument should be over. He just put in a career defining performance with a perfectly executed two minute drill to win a SB which was capped by his placing a perfect ball to Holmes between three defenders in the corner of the endzone.
Being a great QB ain't just about the numbers. It's about being what your team needs you to be when they need you to be it. Ben does that and he did it tonight. 1/3 of his 50+ wins have come from his making a 4th Quarter or into overtime comeback. He's won two SBs with two different coaches before his 27th b-day. He's clutch.
Stacy,
Peyton Manning was not 100% healthy for the first 4 or 5 games this season. He got off to a slow start but finished strong.
"Peyton Manning was not 100% healthy for the first 4 or 5 games this season. He got off to a slow start but finished strong."
I'm with you on this one, too. I'm simply pointing out that the Colts were not better than the Steelers by the end of the season. Even with healty, MVP Peyton Manning. Its clear that you don't think clearly when it comes to the Steelers. No worries, I'm the same way with a few teams.
If Peyton Manning and Tom Brady were 100% healthy for 16 games, the Steelers would not be sniffing the AFC Championship Game this year.
Wait a minute. The road to the Steelers' SB win in the 2005-2006 season went through the 1st seeded Colts. In Indy.
AND he tackled a DB in that game. Oh, AND he's the youngest QB to ever win a SB. Just thought I'd throw those in for the haters.
Tonight's loss hurts because the Steelers were so close to losing and I was really looking forward to that happening.
On the plus side, Steeler fans tend to be very classy and gracious winners. They don't lord it over fans of other football teams, the way NY Yankee fans lord it over fans of other baseball teams.
I've never heard a Steelers fan who thinks it's his/her birthright to have the Steelers win the Super Bowl every year like most Yankee fans think it's their birthright for the Yankees to win the World Series every year until the Sun burns itself out.
Feh. Folks jumping down my throat for agreeing with Madden TOTALLY miss the point. All I'm saying is that this endless frame-by-frame post-hoc officiating has GOT to stop. That's what Madden was onto, in that hang time when we were waiting to see if the TD would be called back. If the refs ON THE FIELD had called it down, no TD, that's what should stand.
I agree, fools - no A for effort! But to suspend judgment until the guy with the geosynchronously orbiting super-power electron microscope declares it valid, well, that just drains all of the beauty and tragedy out of the game.
And for the record, I'm not a sworn Steelers backer. Hell, I live next to Soldier Field....
Seriously, can we end the Cowgirls jokes? Some of us just want to talk some football--not be drawn into penis-envy drama. There are plenty of site out there where you can yell "Steelers suck!!!!!!11" or "Cowgirls suck!!!!!1!" or "49ers suck!!!!11" I don't want this to one of them. It's neither interesting, nor funny.
Yes, I'm being an ass about this. But in general I find the trash-talk in these open NFL threads to be one of the worst aspects. It isn't even creative trash-talk. It's stuff from when we were in sixth grade.
Let's here some sharp commentary on the game.
If you knew the first fricking thing about football, you'd take any of these former and current QB's over Roethlisberger for the final drive of the 4th quarter to lead your time down the field for a touchdown to win the game.
Heh, what's the opposite of prescient? Ben may not be a pure passer in the vein of Montana or Brady, but he can scramble and throw well on the run, and finds ways to win games. With his size, watching him reminds me a bit of Elway.
OK, so I'm looking for more angles on Harrison's runback. It seems like he gets a swarm of blockers instantaneously and makes a great move about halfway through the run. This from a guy who could probably push one of those training sleds farther than any of us care to contemplate, but isn't known for agility.
Who is blocking for him?
"All I'm saying is that this endless frame-by-frame post-hoc officiating has GOT to stop."
I'm going to go on a limb, and guess that you are in the minority with this opinion. Getting the call correct is the important part, not whether we maintain the beauty and tragedy of the game.
"If the refs ON THE FIELD had called it down, no TD, that's what should stand."
No, it shouldn't. Not if it was actually a touchdown. I think the replay and challenge system works incredibly well.
1) Is Bernard Pollard the Steelers' MVP this season?
2) Is Plaxico Burress the Cardinals'?
Seriously, I hate the Giants, but a balanced team like that would have waltzed away with the NFL title this year.
All said, congratulations Steelers, except for Ryan Clark and James Harrison. I hope bad things happen to you and only you.
Also congratulations to Arizona +6.5!
If you knew the first fricking thing about football, you'd take any of these former and current QB's over Roethlisberger for the final drive of the 4th quarter to lead your time down the field for a touchdown to win the game.
Actually, if YOU knew anything about Roethlisberger, as opposed to just having a SERIOUS case of Steeler Derangement Syndrome, you'd know that 1/3 of Ben's 50+ career wins came from his leading a fourth quarter (or into OT) comeback.
He does what his team needs him to do to win. That's what great QBs do. Period.
Stacy;
Well, we respectfully disagree then. I am old school, from an old school Chicago football-crazy family (hell, some remember the Cards as a Chicago team...), and that's probably to my detriment. But this "getting the call correct" thing can go to inhuman and legalistic extremes. Seems stupid to me. Back in the day, you just accepted that the refs did the best they could and dealt with it. And complained afterwards, "we wuz robbed!!!"
/cranky old school rant
TW Andrews,
I admitted a few posts ago that Roethlisberger had a Halley's Comet performance tonight. I still don't think he can repeat tonight's performance for the remainder of his career. If he does repeat tonight's performance to win a 3rd Super Bowl, he'd definitely deserve to be considered an immortal QB.
Nice work indeed by Ben on that last drive--and Holmes was totally clutch. (OK, he should have had that first fade to the left corner that went through his hands, but he made up for it on the right sideline.)
As for Ben as an all-time great, his career Super Bowl totals are now:
*One TD rush
*One TD pass
*Three INTs
*379 yards passing
*64.1 passer rating
*No MVPs
*Two rings
He's a good QB, and he came through in a big way at the end tonight, but I'm still a long way from convinced that he's a "great" QB. The next few years will tell us a lot, especially if the Steelers don't get some help on the O-line.
At least now he's separated himself forever from Dilfer.
Eric,
Yeah, it could definitely be taken too far. I often think the complete/incomplete pass reviews get it wrong quite a bit. They are very harsh on possession, control, etc. I just think the system is set up pretty well. I like that coaches have to make the determination on when to use their challenges. Some coaches have proven to be better at it than others...
Big Springsteen fan, but didn't think the halftime show was very special. Didn't nearly live up to the greatness of the Prince and U2 halftime shows. Not even sure it topped Aerosmith & Britney.
fancypants,
I'm also a Springsteen fan like you. I also like the Rolling Stones, Paul McCartney, Tom Petty, Prince, and U2.
The NFL's problem is that it discovered rock music about 30 years too late. All of these artists were chosen once they were on the downside of their abilty to perfom live.
Springsteen should have performed the year Born to Run came out, the Rolling Stones should have performed the year Exile on Main Street came out, McCartney should have performed the year Ram came out, and Tom Petty should have performed the year Damn the Torpedoes came out.
The Superbowl demands a certain amount of cultural conservatism, so I doubt the vintage Bruce Springsteen would have passed muster.
TNC,
Off topic of the Super Bowl, and I know it's your blog, but I am going to disagree with you on the "cowgirls" comment.
You know why people refer to the Dallas Cowboys as "cowgirls?" Because fans actually care enough about Dallas to actually give them a nickname - even if it is one as uncreative as "cowgirls." Clever? No. Juvenile? Probably. But, hate in the NFL is a sign of respect. When have you last heard a nickname for the Cardinals, Lions, Bengals, Jaguars, Browns, or Texans? Probably never.
So, if you are a Cowboys, Steelers, 49ers, Patriots, Raiders, and Redskins fan, and some yahoo calls them the cowgirls, stealers, whiners, patsies, faders, or deadskins, be proud. Be proud that opposing fans care enough about your team to hate them. Embrace the hate. Drink the hatorade. Remember, it's all in good fun. It's not like we're Soccer hoodlums who go out and fight each other before, during, and after soccer matches.
Finally, sure there's lots of hate for "Big" Ben Roethlisberger on this thread. But that's because he is a famous quarterback who now has two Super Bowl rings - which, when last I checked, is two more than I have. Deep down inside, we actually have a lot of respect for the guy, just as, I assume, most of us have respect for ANYONE who got to play in the NFL. I am sure that Matt Leinart would rather we were discussing him.
Joel,
I think the Superbowl demanded a certain amount of cultural conservatism once upon a time ago.
The very fact that Springsteen, the Rolling Stones, Paul McCartney, Tom Petty, Prince, and U2 have all performed in recent years demonstrates to me that the NFL has adopted a more enlightened position when it comes to rock music. Unfortunately, these musicians couldn't outlast father time, and their performances lost a good deal of their luster once they finally took the stage.
I said it before, and I will say it again regarding the halftime shows, it is really hard to put out a good performance in that short a time period. Especially when you are trying to cover as many classics as you can. Granted, it is leagues better than the "Indiana Jones" halftime show from the mid-1990s.
Also, the best live performances tend to be when the artist shocks you or does something unexpected, and good live performances have some degree of spontanaiety. Because of the wardrobe malfunction of Janet/Justin Timberlake, the NFL doesn't want the acts to do anything unexpected, so we are stuck with "safe" choices who have a lot of hits, but are past their prime.
Tonights game was fantastic and not just because of the end result. Great players making great plays on both sides of the ball and all of this with the world watching.
As for the talk about Ben's credentials, it's all over bar the shouting. He is BIG time and he proved it tonight. I do think it's funny that JK says Ben couldn't repeat that drive in a million years. That's like, a guy wins 5 superbowls and you say, yeah, bet he can't win another one! Dude, you don't have to like him but give credit where it's due.
Paul Gilmartin,
I'll give Roethlisberger credit for doing something I didn't think he was capable of doing.
I'm just saying doing it tonight does not make him an immortal QB in my opinion. If he does it a second time, then I'll call him an immortal QB.
Does anybody know what may have provoked James Harrison into committing that flagrant unnecessary roughness penalty?
Let's here some sharp commentary on the game.
Sure.
The reason the Cards lost (aside from the total offensive-team collapse on Warner's pick-six) was their insistence on blitzing, particularly on the Steelers' final drive. Arizona wasn't putting any pressure on Roethlisberger whether they rushed three men, or five, or seven. However, Pendergast kept gambling with the blitz in the fourth quarter, leaving Steeler receivers downfield in single coverage or less, rather than trusting his secondary, which had shut Ben down for most of the day. While this wasn't the reason he threw the TD pass at the end, it was the reason he was able to get into position to do so.
The penalties were ridiculous, especially on that drive with three questionable flags, but seemed to be distributed evenly. That wasn't the reason the Cards lost. But not to review the fumble/incompletion at the end? Disgraceful. A nervous herd of zebras, knowing they had a shoddy day, trying to run the clock and get off the field.
And with due respect, TNC, it's far from clear that the better team won today. Arizona equaled or outperformed Pittsburgh in every meaningful statistical category aside from penalty yardage, and their defense had tw huge red-zone stops and a safety. If not for Warner's halftime gift, this game would have looked a lot different.
Oh, and Springsteen? OMG, killed it. Interacting with the crowd, initiating some call and response, joking around with Stevie and Clarence? That was like a real concert. Best halftime show I've seen—and I'm not normally a fan of his music by any means.
JK
As was noted in a few of the posts above BR has engineered a number of game winning fourth quarter drives in his career, to be exact, 18 drives that have won or a tied the game in the fourth quarter. So this drive should be considered the rule, rather than the exception. He is a bit of a gunslinger, often trying to make the 'big play', and many times this successful (as was the case today), but it also results in some interceptions and fumbles. We'll see where his career takes him, but at this point he seems most comparable to Elway and Favre in terms of his pluses and minuses and overall on field personality.
"And with due respect, TNC, it's far from clear that the better team won today. Arizona equaled or outperformed Pittsburgh in every meaningful statistical category aside from penalty yardage, and their defense had tw huge red-zone stops and a safety. If not for Warner's halftime gift, this game would have looked a lot different."
Um, and points dude. You know, the only part that matters... Look, I hate what fantasy football has done to the mentality of fans. All that matters is stats. Sorry, but you can throw a football all over a field all day long, but if you don't get it in the endzone or convert 3rd-and-longs, it doesn't matter how many yards, how many catches. Make plays when it counts. Period. The BETTER teams do. That's what matters.
Fighting Words,
You're right. I was at the end of a long day. Tired, crabby and talking stupid. It was a dumb thing to say and your reasoning is rock solid.
As for this:
"Arizona equaled or outperformed Pittsburgh in every meaningful statistical category aside from penalty yardage, and their defense had tw huge red-zone stops and a safety"
Right. But you can't simply disqualify penalty yardage. It's a marker of team discipline. No one knows this better than a Cowboys fan.
Amen. There is also a hidden aspect to those penalties. Several of the penalties were holding calls on James Harrison when he was pass rushing Kurt Warner. I counted at least twice where if Gandy doesn't grab him Harrision is going to get a clean hit on Warner and the opportunity to cause a fumble. Its what he normally does and a big reason why the Steelers get so many turnovers. In my mind those were good penlties for the Cardinals because they kept Warner from getting creamed and perhaps coughing the ball up.
On another note I think judging a game purely by statistics is bogus. But some statisics are bigger than others. For instance just about any coach will point to turnover ratio as a harbinger of who will win the game. The Steelers gave up the ball once but took the ball away twice. Another key statistic is time of possession. Again the Steelers win 33 minutes to 27 minutes for the Cardinals.
As for the game itself there were some unsung heros I think on both sides. For the Steelers Heath Miller opened up the game on fire and lead to the windows opening up for Santonio and the other wideouts. Wille Parker while he didnt have a huge day had some key runs to move the ball down the field and forced the Cardinals to blitz probably a little more than they would have liked. Steve Breaston for the Cardinals took advantage of all of the attention paid to Fitzgerald and Boldin and came up big. Maybe the key to the Cardinals having a chance to win at the end was Darnell Dockett. Dude was playing out of his mind in the third and fourth quarter. And with all of the pub that Harrison gets (deservedly so) Lamar Woodley probably was put the most consistent pressure on Kurt Warner.
Play of the game was the Harrison pick for a TD hands down. But you have to remember that it wasn't a gift. That was a helluva call by Dick Lebeau. If the Steelers had followed the game plan they ran most of the game Harrison would have been rushing up the field and a safety would have had to try to cover that window before the ball gets to Boldin which I personally don't think he would be able to do. If they don't run that defense I think its an easy score for the Cardinals. Now the run back was all on Harrison. He had blockers but he also had to make some pretty good moves AND keep from going out of bounds. Honestly watching it live I thought he might have stepped out but the replay clearly showed he never came close and at the end that was all will power when he made it over the goalline. Still that was one of the best defensive calls I have ever seen in a Superbowl especially at a time when the Steelers were getting picked apart and were definitely back on their heels. Imagine how the game might have changed if instead of being up 10 at the half the Steelers would have been down 4.
I know its been pointed out earlier in the thread but I can't resist poking fun at the guy who was talking about who he would want to have the ball at the end of a game to drive the team down for a win. Thats the great thing about football. It will make liars of us all!
This whining about the penalties has got to stop. Every one except for ONE was richly deserved.
Was that not a face mask on the Steeler WR. Are you going to argue that he didn't run over the holder (Hell, I have never even seen that penalty called in the playoffs before)? Are you arguing that Gandy DIDN'T tackle Harrison on almost every damned play? Which one of those would you have no-flagged?
The only one I thought was BS was the one in which a roughing the passer was called on a play in which Ben scrambled. I think it is just too damned hard for the defense to stop on plays like that, and had I been a ref, I would not have called it. However, as a Steeler fan with an aggressive defense, I have been on the receiving end of those calls forever.
The game did not hinge on penalties. Only one thing matter. Your team had the lead with 2 minutes left in the game, and the better team drove down the field and took the game from you.
End of story.
Gil asks
I will tell you exactly why he did that. The guy tried to cut him when he was rushing the punt. Defensive guys hate when little piss ants do that. Reggie White one time mauled a guy when he tried to cut him and a punt(the defense stayed on the field for punt safe). Now to me the commentators made a mountain out of a mole hill. Harrison was wrong but he didnt punch the guy in the sense of a fight. He blocked him forcefully in the chest. The problem is you can't keep a guy on the ground like on punt return like he was doing at first and you have to let them get up before you can hit them again. But make no mistake he gave him the business because dude went for his knees. I probably would have done something close to the same thing.
As for the guy who said Harrison isn't known for his agility, you don't get 17 sacks and Defensive Player of the Year if you are some stiff guy with no hips unless you are playing defensive tackle.
I'd also disagree that Pitt was clearly the better team (tho I thought so going in). Take away the freak play at the end of the first half and its likely Arizona celebrating. And by take away, I mean if anything else happens BUT a 100 yd. return for a TD, AZ wins. I don't mean that the Cards "should" have won, only that if a play that unlikely is the difference, you can't really conclude that one team is clearly better. Awesome game, though-hard to top last year, just because of the possibility of 19-0, but damn.
@John Cole
I think the reason the roughing call was made was not because he didn't stop (not enough time for that), but because he shoved him down when he didn't need to.
Obviously I can't prove this, but I think the rusher knew he wasn't going to get there in time and decided to send a little message.
Even though they lost, I thought the Cards dispelled any of the "they shouldn't be in the Superbowl" crap. They very nearly won, and if they hadn't handed the Steelers 6 going into the locker room at the half, I think they would have.
They could become a real force in the NFC. If the defense continues to play like they did in the playoffs and they're able to balance the passing game the would become a team you have to respect (and given the dire state of the NFC West, annual playoff contenders).
Congrats to the Steelers though.
"Take away the freak play at the end of the first half and its likely Arizona celebrating. And by take away, I mean if anything else happens BUT a 100 yd. return for a TD, AZ wins."
Leaving aside Sg's point that the team with the most turnovers almost always loses, that Harrison play was, arguably, the greatest defensive play made all year, by the NFL's defensive player of the year. In other words--He was doing his job. It was also a great call by Lebeau one of the League's great defensive minds. In other words--He was doing his job. Kurt Warner didn't do his. When you start tossing out great plays made by great players, you should just stop watching football. There really is no point.
TNC,
No worries. We all have those days. God, I know I have had a few in my lifetime.
Anyway, even though commentors here may disagree on our favorite football teams, whether or not Ben Roethlisberger is a good or great quarterback, whether Kurt Warner deserves to go to the Hall of Fame, whether penalties killed the Cardinals, we all still love each other. That's why we come here.
Fighting words,
I just don't understand why you think soccer fans are needless violent thugs. Please, retrack that statement--we are not passionate, even more accomodating than some dumbass hockey fans. By the way, I don't see why TNC becomes so defensive whenever we say anything about his Cowgirl team--the so-called American Team. Go Skins!
I meant to say, we are passionate.
One of the best SuperBowls in a while...Steelers clearly outhustled them in the end...and i don't get why people think Zona was the better team?
CT...what do you mean? let's disregard one of the best defensive efforts in Super Bowl history? What about the fact that atleast 5 players on the zona defense should have been able to catch him, did...
and he still outlasted them? Harrison for the win.
And btw, that wasn't "freak"...there's no accident in intercepting a pass in the endzone, running 100 yards downfield with 2 of the fastest Wr in the league on your tail and still edge them out for the touchdown. That was hustle. Period.
Also, I have a new found respect of Rothlisberger. Wow, that last throw was UN-believable. i mean forcing that pass into tripple-coverage and STILL getting it in? Naw man, Zona had ample opportunities to shutting them down, they failed...hence, Pittsburg deserved it! Holmes deserved that MVP, with Harrison and Rothlisberger close second and third.
Damn good game last night, not like last year's, but still. Kind of a weird thing to see a team lose the SB in a heart breaker, but still feel like both teams' fans probably have generally positive feelings about the result. Steelers fans get the be the winningest and Cardinals fans finally get to drop their joke-of-a-team status. Congrats all around.
tobby,
Oh my GOD! You picked the wrong person. I LOVE Soccer. I am absolutely passionate about the game. Sure I played for years when I was a kid, but I was an exchange student in England in 1995, saw an Aston Villa/Arsenal match, and have been hooked ever since. Nothing in American sports, except maybe college football or college basketball games, compares to watching a live soccer match in Europe. It's one of my favorite sports to watch, especially with a group of Brits or Europeans.
Having said that, you are correct. In my other statement, I did not mean to imply that all soccer fans are a bunch of mindless thugs. All the soccer fans I know or have met are absolutely passionate about the game. There is a very small, but visible, hoodlum element. However, as any fan will tell you, they are not there for the game, they are just there looking for a fight.
So, I guess my point is: I apologize for implying that all fans of the beautiful game are hoodlums, while acknowledging that there is a very, very small group of supporters that still likes a punch-up.
Fighting Words...the hoodlums you talk about...are often called "ultras"...for a reason...but i guess you know that already!
A few observations:
(1) That was a ridiculously entertaining super bowl. In fact, one of the most exciting games all season. As it should be - but so rarely is.
(2) There were points in that game when I didn't even recognize the Cardinals. I kept shouting "who the hell are these guys" at the screen. My wife does not understand this. But seriously. Their D hasn't played like that all season ... stuffing the 'lers into the endzone for a safety ... unthinkable. They proved themselves worthy to be in the championship game.
(3) Superbowls are often marred by excessive penalties. Everyone is nervous, emotions are running high, there is tons of scrutiny on the 'refs. There's a feeling that, unlike the regular season, at the SB you can't just "let them play." I understand it though. You need to be able to win the Superbowl clean.
(4) Larry Fitzgerald is inhuman.
(5) I love this debate about the relative "greatness" of Ben Roethlisburger. Very, "how many angels can fit on the head of a pin." Football as the new theology. Argue on.
(6) Best image of the night was the close up of Troy P. completely blissing out while the confetti got caught in his hair.
Let me tell the Ben criticizers out there--
Pittsburghers will love Ben forever, not because of the moves he made in this Superbowl although that will certainly help. they will love him because of his moves in every game he plays. He holds that ball in the pocket like it is superglued to his hand, looking for the best opening, with all of those huge defensive players bearing down on him. And when the Steelers lose, Ben always take the loss on himself. he never, ever blames anyone else, even when it is clearly someone else's fault.
Ben may not be the most beautiful QB in the league, but he has shown himself to be a real stand-up guy again and again, who is humble in victory and in defeat.
Pittsburghers _do not_ like razzmatazz-- they like solid. Any QB who tackles a defensive back in the AFC championship has won the 'Burgh's heart forever.
Fighting words,
Thank you so much for clearing that unwarranted dust, I am now feeling great. As you know, the game is a classic sport of puzzles--brian work at best. I lost my virginity for soccer when I was 6 months old.
I am a bonafide living fan of the great Chlesea. I joined a revolutional movement in D.C to transform the game of soccer into a national treasure here in the state. Love the game forever!
lebecka,
If you are talking about the Colts tackle on Nick Harper after Bettis fumbled, that was the divisional game, not the AFC championship.
*One TD rush
*One TD pass
*Three INTs
*379 yards passing
*64.1 passer rating
*No MVPs
*Two rings
He does what his team needs him to do to win. That's what great QBs do. Period.
You can't just run the numbers, average them and use that to justify. His first SB his stats were hideous, but stats don't tell the whole story. He made throws when they needed him. He converted third downs when they needed him. His second SB was much, much, much better stat wise but he still did the same thing - made plays when they needed him.
I say it again: He does what his team needs him to do to win. That's what great QBs do. Period.
(Yawn.)
Morning, all.
So today's question: did Edgerrin James' signing with the Cardinals signal a new franchise commitment to victory, somewhat similar to Reggie White's signing with Green Bay a decade ago? Granted, Edge didn't have the impact White did, but I'm wondering if the arrival of a multi-talented player from a championship-caliber team actually, against all odds, had an effect on the culture of the Cardinals' locker room.
Discuss.
Musical Bigotry!?! LOL. There's a name for why I had Bruce on mute? I see Bruce, and I think this has nothing to do with me. I guess I missed a good performance, too.
@Branden
Sorry my football lingo is not all that good. I am talking about this year's AFC Championship when Ben made some double fake handoff, then threw himself at the guy going for the ball. He did that this year. Maybe you guys with the better football jargon (and memory!) can sort this out. That's not what's crucial to me.
Ben's attitude, the way he has taken on the leadership of the team, and the way he personifies hard work and a drive to be the best really wraps up the best of Pittsburgh and its values in one package. Keep your head down, and work hard-- just rewards will come.
In this sense, pittsburghers like him in the way they like Rocky Bleier and Franco Harris, and in a way that they never liked Terry Bradshaw, who never really connected with pittsburghers on a visceral level.
But then Ben really is a local boy, after all. Ohio is just next door.
I completely forgot about Prince and Paul McCartney--and not because the performances were bad. Prince tore it down (as always), and Paul did his thing, too. But Bruce Springsteen looked like he was having the time of his life: the hoarse but happy voice, the cheerfully careless sliding into a cameraman, the fun back and forth with Little Stevie--it's the first time in a long time that a Super Bowl act looked like they were as much fun than the audience. Maybe more.
Ok, last post about Soccer here. I know, it is not the time or the place. And I don't want to threadjack...
Bruce,
I am not positive (someone who knows more can correct me on this), but I think "Ultras" is mainly a continental and/or South American term. And I believe it mainly refers to the hard-core fans in the stands who have the flares and stuff. Soccer culture is totally different than anything in the U.S. Each country, and each team, have different ways of showing their support.
What I was referring to earlier was "hooliganism" which is a different thing entirely. I think they call them "firms" in the UK. I have asked English friends about them, and have received the same response every time: "these people don't care about the Football, they are just there to fight." I am thinking along the lines of movies like, "The Football Factory" and "Green Street."
tobby,
Chelsea...
Fighting Words...true...it has been a south european thing for a while. But the ultra-culture has spread to Scandinavia, the British Islands. I understand what you're saying, but trust me, the brits have nothing on italians/spanyards when it comes to hooliganism. What you think is ultras-culture in italy with the tifos's (italian harcore soccer-supporters) has changed alot in the last 10 years. Ultras violence has gone up and is equateable to the firms of Chelsea, West Ham etc.
Sure, they do alot of good work with fireworks and pregame warm-ups, but it's changed. There have been several deaths with regards to italian fans mashing it up in the streets and outside the arenas in the past 2-3 years. Some have included police-involvement. Horrible really!
I'm happy to see soccer-culture growing on the american public. You punched the swedish national team square in the mouth. Great game btw. Hopefully we can return the favour soon!
My apologies to TNC for the threadjack.
Can the NFL kill the excessive celebration rule? They let Holmes get away with one at the end of the game, which was crucial, given that fifteen yards would have been assessed on the final kickoff. I hope Joe Horn called up Goodell on his cellphone.
Anyhow, the 2010 season starts now. Good riddance.
Not to threadjack but I had to delurk since we're (a few of us are) talking about soccer:
"I am a bonafide living fan of the great Chlesea."
Really Tobby... How's that working for you today?
The Steelers, including Roethlisberger, played well enough to win, but no one can honestly deny that the performance of the referees was a huge advantage for the Steelers.
The Steeler D underperformed in the 2nd and especially 4th quarters although the int/td at the end of the half was a marvel. Considering how much stronger their team was, one could say that the Steelers as a whole underperformed, and were fortunate that the Cardinals lost discipline and focus leading to many stupid penalities, but that was all to the good for fans everywhere. It was a very entertaining game.
Previous to the game I read a lot of posts here saying that the Pittsburgh D was the greatest of all time, but after this game that will not be their reputation. More than just their stats on D were abominable; with the game on the line they left the middle of the field wide open for the best wide receiver in football to waltz through. Stats are misleading anyway because without the int/td they lose the game and by a considerable margin.
Ben Roethlisberger who was even compared with Trent Dilfer here--my goodness--led a drive for the NFL ages, and I gaurantee you if he is qbing for one more Pittsburgh Super Bowl victory, he'll be a lock on the Hall of Fame.
It was an exciting finish to a meh season for most of the NFL, even if the teams themselves were not historic teams.
The Cardinal got jobbed. No vaseline no quarter. The officating was the worst ever and the upstairs people have a vast stash of pictures of them held somewhere. It is the only way the Steelers won. Take away Patterson's touchdown and the Steelers lost. His interception and run was a thing of beauty but the ball was down.
Tobby-
I was going to give you a hard time regarding Chelsea...but, I support Newcastle. Although they were somehow able to salvage a draw in the all important Tyneside derby, relegation is still nipping at the toes...
As for the Super Bowl, man I am having a hard time coming to grip with that last play. I have an admitted bias agianst the Steelers fan, being a loyal Cowboy fan. But how was that laast play not ruled an incomplete pass. The refs are now saying the play was confirmed, yet they made no anouncement during the game that they were even reviewing it. I dont see the difference between that last play and the one they overuled earlier in the game. Plus there was a penalty on the Steelers on that play that would have put the ball on around the 35-30 yd line. I think that last play was an incomplete pass, and the Cardinals should have at least had one more play. Sure the chances are still low, but who better to come down with a jump ball, end zone pass than L.Fitz.
The Fitzgerald tackle on the interception. How is it legal for him to run all of the way down the sidelines--out of bounds! He doesn't need to fight through his slower teammates. And since it was the Cards sideline, nobody got in his way.
This was never addressed, so I assume it's within the rules.
I've seen this called on punt returns though, when a guy runs out of bounds but makes the tackle.
Look it was a fumble plain and simple. When Kurt Warner's hand went forward the ball wasn't in it. Woodley stripped the ball and it hit off of Warners chest and then went forward when his arm went forward. I have watched it like 5 times and like I said it isn't close. And truly complaining about the refs is what losers do. The Colts could be making the same case that they were jobbed against the Charger. At the end of the day the Steelers won, get over it.
Well put SG, the officiating calls weren't great but they even out and complaining that the refs "handed" the game to Pittsburgh is the first refuge of the sore loser.
Robert m, first off, it was James Harrison, the defensive player of the year, who intercepted the ball and ran it back 100 yards for a touchdown (who the hell is Patterson?), secondly, TNC addressed this above, you can't just say "apart from the interception return for TD", that's like saying "apart from Larry Fitzgerald and Kurt Warner, Arizona suck", it's just ludicrous, and it diminishes the performance of so many players last night: Holmes, Dansby, Woodley to name just a couple.
SJ, the only rule pertaining to leaving the field and returning is that you can't be the first person to touch the ball, i.e. a receiver can't go out of bounds then come back in and make a catch. Fitzgerald actually had to run further than most players to even be in a position to tackle the ballcarrier AND he did actually run into one of his own guys on the sideline. I mentioned this above, the fact that he almost stopped Harrison from getting in the endzone shows what ability and hustle he has, the man is INCREDIBLE.
p.s. Arsenal are the greatest football team (well, apart from the Steelers of course!)
SG-
Geez dude, I have no puppy in this fight. I have an inherent dislike for the Steelers(as a Cowboy fan), but I truly could have cared less who won the game last night. I don't think it was clear cut, certainly worth a look as was the one they overuled earlier. But before you knew it, the Steelers were taking a knee??? Now they are saying the play was confirmed by the booth, that just doesn't add up to me. You said you saw the play 5 times, all I'm saying is that from the time the play ended, to when the Steelers kneeled the ball there is no way the refs could have reviewed the play 5 times. You said it was so clear cut, yet it took you 5 reviews to come to that conclusion.
The tuck rule says that if the ball is knocked loose while he is bringing the ball forward in a passing motion, its incomplete. The tuck rule is so subjective, to me it looks like he was clearly starting to throw the ball, as he is just about to start the forward motion he is hit. The ball is hit as he is starting to throw, but not completely out of Warners hand which is why the ball falls forward, even though the guy hits him from the side. I just think it is more of an incomplete pass than say Tom Brady v. Raiders, which was ruled an incomplete pass. Usually the ball doesn't go forward(unless he is hit from behind), the defenders usually knock it to the ground, or it is simply dislodged. All i'm saying is that to me it was not so clear cut, and I don't think they reviewed it. The ref never even went over to the booth!
Ta-Nehisi, Bruce,
I'm not running down the play or trying to 'take it away'-it was a great play by a great player-just saying that it was an incredibly unlikely event that resulted in a huge point swing which likely decided the game. Let me broaden my main point-if a game comes down to a single play, its hard to argue that one team was clearly the better team, that's all. I suppose if it were a case where one team was moving the ball up and down the field, but kept making unforced errors that killed scoring opportunities and kept the game close, sure, but that wasn't the case here.
Acknowledging that many bad referee calls went against the Cardinals is not meant in any way to diminish the Steelers win. It would be nice to hear Steeler fans admit that they benefited from bad officiating.
Steeler fans who resent the discussion of horrible officiating by the referees are too sensitive. Steeler fans have every right to take great pride in their team winning a 6th Super Bowl. Given the state of the Cowboys and the 49ers, it looks like the Steelers are going to be the only 6 time Super Bowl champions for a very long time.
I respect the Steelers for doing what they had to do to win, but don't pretend that they weren't helped out by the referees.
I wanted the Steelers to lose; the Cardinals made stupid, undisciplined moves that led to a number of penalties, especially on one important Steeler drive. The Cardinals got the call on the first Pittsburgh td, getting them to settle for a field goal--a four point swing; Harrison clearly crossed the goal line on his interception run back; the one questionable call of roughing the passer was only questionable because there was obviously no way it could have been avoided, but going strictly by the rules--the quarterback was clearly hit well after he released the ball--it was a legit call. To me, the first call on the forward pass business could have just as easily gone the other way since the ball was knocked out of Warner's hand before the follow through moved his arm forward, and even if the refs had decided that the second one was an incomplete pass, basing a gripe on the possibility of a hail mary pass is the worst kind of specious griping. The Cardinals committed a number of costly errors and their D ran out of gas on the final drive; they were beaten by one spectacular play on defense that will go down as perhaps the greatest such play in Super Bowl history, and flat out terrific quarterbacking and wide receiver play at the end of the game. Simple as that. The Steelers won.
Jeez, give it a rest, JK. Your whining grows tiresome.
How about the questionable holding call in the endzone that gave the Cards a safety, wiped out a 20-yard gain for a first down, and got them the ball back? That was a pretty huge penalty.
Norsecats,
I want the truth to be told and you can't handle the truth.
Is the name "Harrison" an indicator of dirty play and/or surly demeanor?
Rodney? Marvin? James?
sg,
Thanks for the insight on the Harrison penalty.
For someone who doesn't react like that after getting held all day, I figured there had to be some unusual provocation to make him do that.
JK, We can "debate" the officiating all day long but the bottom line is that the officiating helped and hurt both teams so it's ridiculous to expect Steelers fans to "admit" that the refs helped us win. As I said above, sore losers take refuge in the old excuse "the ref robbed us", it's the same the world over, be it football, soccer or basketball. Pittsburgh won the superbowl with some exquisite football and a late, game-winning drive by a QB you said didn't have it in him. Sucks to be on the losing side but you are so try to deal with it a little better.
Keith,
SG didn't say he needed to see it 5 times to realize it was a fumble, he said he watched it 5 times and on each occasion it was clearly a fumble. Perhaps they should have taken longer to review it but the bottom line is they got the call right. T qb has to have control of the ball as his arm moves forward for it to count as an incomplete pass. If you watch the replay, warner has lost control of the ball by the time his arm comes forward and pushes the ball forward, ergo fumble.
For what it's worth, the officials got it right on Warner's 1st "fumble", when they reversed the original call. His arm was moving forward and he had control of the ball.
Even though they lost, I thought the Cards dispelled any of the "they shouldn't be in the Superbowl" crap. They very nearly won, and if they hadn't handed the Steelers 6 going into the locker room at the half, I think they would have.
They could become a real force in the NFC. If the defense continues to play like they did in the playoffs and they're able to balance the passing game the would become a team you have to respect (and given the dire state of the NFC West, annual playoff contenders).
Congrats to the Steelers though.
PaulG-
I don't want it to sound like the Steelers won as a result of that call, or the refs gave them the game. It was a hell of game, and a hell of a win for a hell of a team. As much as I despise the Steelers, I would give anything to see Tomlin wearing blue and coaching the Cowboys. They are a great, class organization.
That last play just bugged me, the lack of a review bugged me most. I have seen the play numerous times, and I think it was an incomplete pass. To me, it looked like the ball was in his hands as it was coming forward. I concede I could be wrong, and am generous in the interpretation of the rule. But in no way will I say it was "clearly" a fumble.
That being said, the Steelers deserved to win the game. That last play does not mean the Cardinals would have won if it had been turned over, and in no way means the win by the Steelers was in anyway tainted.
The last play was an incomplete pass. Anyone who disagrees hasn't seen many reviews over the past five years in the NFL. His arm started to move forward, and then the ball was knocked loose. This isn't the minority opinion for people paid to cover the NFL.
A lot of people on here acting like they know for a fact that that last play was a fumble. Ridiculous. His arm was coming forward before it was knocked out. Now, to me, it should be a fumble either way, but by NFL rules, that's an incomplete pass. At least, it has been every time a similar play has been reviewed since replay started.
Viewed from the reverse angle, it seems pretty clear to me that it's a fumble:
http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80e84f48&filter=cant-miss-plays&categoryId=featured
I have to say, as I said earlier, that for me the standard bearer is Tom Brady v. the Raiders. If that play is an incomplete pass, and according to the rules was rightly called incomplete, than what happened last night has to also be an incomplete pass.
Stacy-
I agree with you, but I will take it one step further, Warner had the ball in his hands through his full forward motion. It was dislodged, but still in his hands which is why the ball was going forward.
I hate to fixate on that play, but I just hate to see a great game end on such a blatant cluster fuck.
Keith,
I understand what you're saying and agree that the proper thing to do would have been to review it, after all, that's why they have reviews in the first place. I also appreciate your recognition of the Steelers. I know what it's like to have a team you hate win and it's even harder to admit that they earned it and deserved it (see JK entries from early yesterday to today!) because you can't bloody stand them!!! (For me, that's when the Ravens or Patriots win). So major props to you on this point.
FWIW, I can't stand the cowboys but respect them as an organization! When the Steelers beat them in early December I honestly thought "shit, if we make it to the superbowl and play against dallas we'll probably lose!". I admire a lot of their players and wish them well (though not too well!).
Choi,
At this point, I think we've determined that the last play is one where we will not have a consensus so to say that calling it a fumble is ridiculous and then saying it was definitely a forward pass is going nowhere. IMHO, the ball is out of his control before his hand is moving forward, you and Keith (and others I'm sure), think otherwise. That's the way we'll have to leave it, although it IS funny that we have instant replay from numerous angles and we STILL can't agree on it, that just shows you how much subjectivity is involved, even from officials. I agree with you regarding the fact that it SHOULD be classified as a fumble even if the arm is moving forward but by the current rules it's not.
Keith,
I thought they changed the rule after the Brady-tuck screw-up. I understand the "by the rules" metric but in the spirit of the game, Brady fumbled the ball. I'm not saying that the refs got it wrong, merely that in analyzing rules and their effectiveness, the NFL took this into account. I thought that was why they took a look at that and changed the rule but I could be wrong.
BTW, Choi, I didn't mean we shouldn't stop talking about the last play, simply that we should change our line of arguing that "I am right and you are wrong". In that regard, you were right to say that it's not a FACT that Warner fumbled and Keith is right to say that it wasn't "clearly" a fumble.
I would re-iterate Keith's point from earlier and wonder why they didn't look at it under the hood. They can't come out afterwards and say they reviewed it if the ump didn't look at it under the hood. The replay official in the booth may have looked at it and determined it did not need to be reviewed but, by definition, that's NOT an official review.
PG-
The "tuck rule" was already on the books. It was that interpretation of the rule that allowed the overturn and rulling a fumble. It was because of that play they thought about revising the rule, but they did not make anychanges to it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuck_rule
PG-
My bad, they ruled it incomplete not a fumble. My brain hurts...
I'm really not trying to take anything away from the Steelers. They won the game. But I went and re-watched it on the link that dwhite provided. Now maybe we have different definitions of 'forward,' but his arm had clearly gone back as far as coud go and had started to move in the other direction when the ball was knocked loose.
stein,
1:20 to go in the 4th quarter with no timeouts left, my team trailing by 5 points, and starting on it's own 5 yrd line, I'd take
Dan Marino, Dan Fouts, Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, Fran Tarkenton, Ken Stabler, Kenny Anderson, Vinne Testaverde, Bernie Kossar, Doug Flutie, Joe Thiesman, Ron Jaworski, Steve McNair, Boomer Esiason, Phil Simms, Randall Cunningham, Bert Jones and among active QB's Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Philip Rivers, Matt Leinart, Kurt Warner, Donovan McNabb, and Jay Cutler in a heartbeat over Big Ben Roethlisberger to drive my team into the endzone.
If you knew the first fricking thing about football, you'd take any of these former and current QB's over Roethlisberger for the final drive of the 4th quarter to lead your time down the field for a touchdown to win the game.
Posted by JK
And then "he" blames the refs for Zona's loss. Is it at all possible that JK is not the biggest moron on this board? Well, no. It isn't.
Keith,
I hear ya! I was wondering if you were mixing up the two plays, they were very similar. The first one was ruled a fumble on the field and then overturned on replay because Warners arm was moving forward.
On the next to last play (the kneeldown being the last), it looks to me like the ball is dislodged and he doesn't have control when he begins moving his arm forward.
Stacy,
As I said above, at this point neither "side" can say "clearly" it was a fumble or "clearly" it was a forward pass. I think it's a great example of the limits of instant replay. In our minds we think it is the de facto answer to what happened but in reality there is far more subjectivity involved than we realize.
If his arm wasn't moving forward, then I don't know what forward is. Seriously, we must have a different idea of what that means.
By the way, I agree that that type of play SHOULD be a fumble. But that is constantly ruled an incomplete pass when the arm has started moving forward.
Brian,
If you don't think the officiating by the referees unfairly benefitted the Steelers, you were either drunk or stoned while watching this game.
Why didn't the Steelers get penalized 15 yards for Santonio Holmes using the football as a prop after he scored that final TD?
Why wasn't the final play of the game reviewed to reach a definitive conclusion as to whether Warner fumbled the ball or not?
Stacy, we'll just have to disagree. It looked to me like Woodley caught Warner's arm at the end of the wind up, and the ball came out just as Warner tried moving his arm forward.
"drunk or stoned", boy you're really elevating the level of the debate JK!
A couple of examples of the referees making questionable calls AGAINST the steelers:
1. On Ben's td run in the first quarter, his knee never touched the ground yet he was ruled down shy of the goal-line. Big 4-point swing there!
2. Holding in the endzone. Looked like the pass-rusher blew up on Hartwig and went down on top of him, questionable call at best.
As I said earlier, we can go on and on ad nauseum about the officiating calls but to maintain that they favored the Steelers just YOUR inherent bias, not theirs.
Stacy,
Not trying to be funny here but just making sure you're watching the replay of the 2nd "fumble" not the 1st. Keith made that mistake earlier since they were very similar plays. In the 1st one, replay clearly shows Warners arm moving forward. Regarding the 2nd one, I agree with dwhite that it looks to me as though Woodley get's his hand in there to dislodge the ball the instant before Warner's hand begins moving forward.
On the late fumble:
http://www.nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/28971640/
So, his hand was moving forward with the ball, but not with total control of the ball. That's what I saw, too. It changed position in his hand before it started moving forward.
Fumble.
No, I am looking at the second play. The second to last snap of the game. His arm was moving forward.
PG-
I have been talking about the second play the whole time. What I was correcting earlier was regarding the Brady "tuck rule" play against the Raiders. I said that the interpretation of the "tuck rule" allowed the refs to rule the play a fumble, what I meant to say was that the "tuck rule" allowed the refs to rule it an incomplete pass. I was talking about Brady.
The reason I brought that up was my argument being if they can rule that play an incomplete pass, surely Warner's play last night could also be ruled an incomplete.
The rule:
NFL Rule 3, Section 21, Article 2, Note 2: "When a Team A player is holding the ball to pass it forward, any intentional forward movement of his hand starts a forward pass, even if the player loses possession of the ball as he is attempting to tuck it back toward his body. Also, if the player has tucked the ball into his body and then loses possession, it is a fumble."
I think he clearly was in the act of throwing the ball, I think his arm was starting forward, and unless I am reading the rule wrong, it should have been an incomplete pass.
The reason that play was important, there was a flag on the play that would have moved them up 15 yards to about the 30-35 yard line. A 35 yard pass is not a hail mary, especially when you have 2 physical recievers with great hands.
Paul Gilmartin,
1. As far as Ben's TD run in the 1st quarter, I believe the refs got this one right.
2. You might be correct about this play.
Despite the lapses in judgment by the refs which generally favored the Steelers, this was one of the great 4th quarters in Super Bowl history.
It was a heart pounding, gut wrenching 15 minutes of football and exciting as hell to watch.
The game was incredibly entertaining. Every Super Bowl should come down to the last few minutes of the 4th quarter.
Keith,
That's not the applicable rule. It's this one:
http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/protectionofpasser
Gil-
Well, no. If you read the second paragraph of the rule it states:
"When a passer is holding the ball to pass it forward, any intentional movement forward of his arm starts a forward pass. If a defensive player contacts the passer or the ball after forward movement begins, and the ball leaves the passer’s hand, a forward pass is ruled, regardless of where the ball strikes the ground or a player."
I think its clear what the rule says. I am of the opinion that he was intentionally starting the process of a forward pass, and his arm was going forward when the guy hits it, loosens it and as the rule says even if he loosens the ball after forward movements begins it is a pass. I think the argument is was he moving his arm forward, I think he was as do alot of other people. The ball cant go forward unless the arm holding is also moving forward. It wasn't batted forward, it was thrown forward...gotta love football...
That's only applicable if his hand wasn't moving forward before the ball was knocked loose. I think his hand was clearly moving forward.
Ok, I guess this will never lead to consensus. It seems clear to me that the motion that ultimately pushed the ball forward did not begin with the passer in total control of the ball. It was, as Mike Pereira said "rolling in his hand."
I'm talking about this clip:
http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80e84f48&filter=cant-miss-plays&categoryId=featured
at around 0:27 seconds it seems clear to me that the ball is hit and Warner loses "control of ball" when his hand is still moving backwards. It's the hand not the arm that has to be moving forward.
If you guys see something else, I can't imagine what it is. I think I'm open-minded about this, and I'm completely satisfied that it was a fumble.
Gil-
You said, "it's the hand not the arm that has to be moving forward"
Yet, the link of the rule that YOU provided clearly states: "...any intentional movement of his ARM starts a forward pass".
I'm sorry, but I have to take Mike Periera's comments with a grain of salt. I think they clearly blew the review process at the end of the game, there is no way that a proper review coulds have taking place in time from the end of the play to the point when the Steelers kneeled the ball. Hell even in the replay you linked, the announcer said one ref was ruling fumble, one ref was ruling incomplete. We saw two replays, then the Steelers kneeling the ball. There is no way the refs could have come together so quickly to make such a crucial decision on a play that was so important. The ref never went to the booth!!!
I am starting to feel like Stacy here, I don't understand how we could be arguing about what forward means. Now your saying his arm was going backwards...thats a new one. He clearly was reving up for a throw, when the guy hits the ball I think it is starting to go forward, according to the rules it is an incomplete pass. Nowhere in the rule book does it say that he has to have total control, in fact it says the opposite. Mike Periera is covring his ass.
I don't care about the last play, but Pereira has zero credibility. His job is to back up his refs. NFL rule enforcement is only marginally better than the other leagues and ultimately no official is going to admit major error in a situation like that. I'm just hoping they kill the excessive celebration rule in light of Holmes' impromptu Lebron tribute. The rule is garbage and I would have enjoyed seeing it ruin the game on it's biggest stage.
One thing I've been thinking about is the possibility that James Harrison used steroids to get where he is. The circumstantial evidence is there. Domestic abuse,
Crooked club house doctors , team history of abuse. This guy got cut by the Steelers 3 times. And now, all of sudden, he's the NFL Defensive Player of the Year. Last year they were going to give DPOY to Shawn Merriman.
If it were true, I think the Cards would have a legitimate gripe about the game being stolen.
Just Karl,
Are you being serious? That is ridiculous.
Keith,
My bad, when you said "they ruled it incomplete", I thought you were talking about the first "fumble" and not Brady's tuck/fumble. I guess we got our wires crossed!
Stacy,
No offence meant, just checking that we were on the same page. The first "fumble" was correctly reversed since Warner's arm was moving forward before the ball came out.
Isn't it funny how replay is supposed to make it clear cut and yet we're having this discussion?
Stacy,
No, he's not being serious, he's just trying to get a rise out of someone.
As for the arm moving forward, it seems to me like we're analyzing the zapruder film:
Frame 27: Warners hand reaches the furthest backward point
Frame 28: the hand begins forward motion, yet the defender has not contacted the ball at this point
Frame 29: Woodley's hand makes contact with the football
Frame 30: the ball begins to "roll" in Warners hand
Frame 31: Ben takes a knee and the game is over
Paul,
I'm confused. What you just described is an incomplete pass. You just perfectly said what I've been saying.
It was fun and exciting, but only because the Stillers took a quarter off.
Are you being serious? That is ridiculous.
OK. But remember I told you so.
Stacy,
Just an attempt at humour, not saying that's what I think.
I'm with you. I just think that you let it slip in a moment of honesty!
JK,
As for your discussion of health, may I remind you that Roethlisberger separated his THROWING shoulder in the season opener against Houston? He still played every single game for the Steelers, including the season ender where he sustained a concussion and was carted off the field on a spinal board leading into the playoffs. And I guess you forgot he got speared in the ribs on a (non-flagged) late hit during the AFC Championship game? You act like he's just playing Madden while Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are actually getting hit. Get over it. The guy is tough-as-nails, and a winner.
Cash,
Ragarding Ben's stats: Elway, taken over his whole career, was an undeniably great QB. [Contest that fact, and you condemn yourself to roam in the wilderness, howling unheard.]
But Elway looked like crap in three, maybe four Super Bowls, and looked a lot like Ben has so far in the two he won. Take Elway through his first two Super Bowls, and you get:
1 Rushing TD
2 Passing TDs
4 INTs
561 yards passing
Avg QB rating of 48.2, and that's not including the awful 19.4 he'd post in his next Super Bowl flop in 1990.
No MVPs
Zero Rings
Take Elway's first winning Super Bowl:
1 Rushing TDs
0 Passing TD
1 INT
123 yards passing
QB rating 51.9
No MVP
1 Ring
Over Elway's two winning Super Bowls:
2 Rushing TDs
1 Passing TD
2 INTs
459 yards passing total
Avg QB rating 75.5
1 MVP
2 Rings
You can't deny Elway was great in his last SB, and you can't deny Ben was MUCH better in SB43 than in SB40. Whether he'll be worthy of the Hall remains to be seen, as you rightly pointed out. But stats alone can be pretty misleading.
Why didn't the Steelers get penalized 15 yards for Santonio Holmes using the football as a prop after he scored that final TD?
Why wasn't the final play of the game reviewed to reach a definitive conclusion as to whether Warner fumbled the ball or not?
Posted by JK | February 2, 2009 5:55 PM
Your memory seems a tad selective, JK.
Did you miss Roethlisberger's first touchdown run being overturned on what certainly did not look like "irrefutable proof?"
Maybe you missed Warner's fumble that was overturned into an incomplete pass on similarly flimsy grounds.
You'll get over the massive injustice of SB43 by the time you grow up (I think).
BTW, the last play should have been reviewed, but the idea that the calls were other than a wash is just ludicrous.
Mike Pereira is in great company when it comes to telling incredible lies.
“We confirmed it was a fumble, the replay assistant in the replay booth saw it was clearly a fumble. The ball got knocked loose and was rolling in his hand before it started forward. He has to have total control.”
-- Mike Pereira
“The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.”
-- George W. Bush
"I think they're in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency."
-- Dick Cheney
A long time ago, the year that the Raiders upset the Redskins in the Super Bowl, the Redskins who were everyone's favorite beat the 49ers in the NFC championship game on the basis of not one but two very specious pass interference calls. No real 49er fan will forget them, nor forget how Lawerence Taylor forced a Roger Craig fumble near the end of a game in another NFC championship, a game in which victory was in their grasp. The two taken together could have meant that the 49ers today would have 7 rings. Those 2 calls in the Redskins game--on Ronnie Lott and Eric Wright--were outrageous and really did change the outcome of the game.
I wanted the Cardinals to win, but I don't buy this refs business. JK--here's the truth: the Cardinals played a sloppy game and lost in part as a result. Period. Get over it. They lost, and dig it, JK, in the last two minutes, Ben Roethlisberger put on a drive that was only equalled or bettered by one--the very greatest of all time--quarterback ever. Live with it.
Mike Pereira is in great company when it comes to telling incredible lies.
“We confirmed it was a fumble, the replay assistant in the replay booth saw it was clearly a fumble. The ball got knocked loose and was rolling in his hand before it started forward. He has to have total control.”
-- Mike Pereira
“The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.”
-- George W. Bush
"I think they're in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency."
-- Dick Cheney
Posted by JK | February 3, 2009 2:18 PM
You are really getting pathetic, kid. Too bad that the first two quotes are true - Mr. Plame even confirmed the second one. The third is what is known as a being wrong - about as wrong as one could hope to be.
I must admit to feeling some serious schadenfreude over your sad ranting, though.
JK has taken it too far, but he's right about the officiating. Especially the second to last play.
Brian,
You can't handle the truth so you simply deny it. You need to take your blinders off and recognize what's true and what's false.
Maybe, one day you'll be cured of your delusions.
Okay guys, I've enjoyed the back and forth but I'm bugging out (it's almost 48 hours since the incompletion, oops, fumble, that ended the game).
Take care all and catch you all in August for preseason (damn that's a long time from now!)
JK,
With all due respect, you are an effing moron. You are utterly clueless about football and other things, apparently. I think I hear your mom calling.
See you in Sixburgh.