Vick's major problem as an NFL quarterback has been that he simply does not pass the ball nearly as well as the game's elite quarterbacks. He's never completed 57 percent of his passes, he's never thrown for 2,500 yards and he's never thrown more than 20 touchdowns. And his career passer rating of 75.7 is below average (typically about 80.0) and far below the elite status that might inspire a team to take a chance on him three seasons after he last took a snap from center.Atlanta's running game has certainly suffered severely without Vick. The team's historic 5.47 YPA on the ground with Vick in 2006 fell sharply to a middling 3.95 YPA in 2007, before recovering in 2008 (4.36 YPA) behind Pro Bowl RB Michael Turner.However, Atlanta's passing game hardly missed a beat without Vick.In fact, it improved dramatically in the two years since Vick left football. We all know that Falcons quarterback Matt Ryan was the NFL's Rookie of the Year in 2008. His 87.7 passer rating easily exceeded Vick's best efficiency mark (81.6 in 2002). But the most damning indictment of Vick's passing capabilities is that the Falcons rose from 32nd in passing yards with Vick at the helm in 2006, to 18th in passing yards in 2007, when the team was led by rotating collection of castoff quarterbacks who filled the void in Vick's absence: Joey Harrington, Chris Redman and Byron Leftwich.The Falcons averaged 5.70 YPA passing behind Vick in 2006, and 5.93 YPA passing behind the back-up all-stars in 2007.
I agree with the case against Vick as a QB. I'm not sure I agree that he's the heart to take the sort of pounding that a running back has to endure. There were quite a few running backs who were faster, bigger and stronger than Emmitt Smith. There weren't many that were tougher. Think how Walter Payton used to finish his runs. It takes something internal to deliver like that. I could see Vick as a third down back, a kind of Brian Mitchell back--but not much more.
The Beautiful Struggle: A Father, Two Sons, and an Unlikely Road to Manhood 
funny thing is, while your points are valid...i can see teams taking him...wouldn't be surprised if the Lions took him for example....
Maybe as a Kordell Stewart Slash-type? I agree that he most likely lacks the toughness and I don't think he'd want to be anything other than a QB. How could a guy go from being the greatest thing since sliced bread to being a less durable Charlie Garner (with all apologies to Charlie Garner)? Maybe a team takes a chance on him for PR-sake, but I think he's essentially finished as anything other than a headline.
I was thinking exactly this, a Kordell Stewart, bring him in on a third down, in some fancy spread-wildcat-h-back type of formation, run reverses and/or pitch to him so he can then throw way downfield gimmickry. But never as a starting QB unless it's one of those emergencies and everyone else is injured.
I think he'll get a chance to play QB again. It might be in a backup role at first, but he's definitely good enough to play backup QB in this league. Hell, you could let him return kicks and keep him as your backup QB. I just hope the guy gets a chance after getting as screwed as he has.
"Getting as screwed as he has"? Don't you mean "after screwing himself up as badly as he has"?
But yeah, I think he's good enough to play backup. I imagine someone will take a chance on him.
No, I meant 'getting as screwed as he has.' If you think the punishment has fit the 'crime' in this case, then we are not going to agree.
He might make a decent slot receiver, if he can catch the ball consistently. Put him in a west coast offense and let him catch the inside slant and then use his athletic ability to create space in the open field. He could be pretty dangerous in this role.
beat me by 2 minutes!
You, sir, are a brilliant man.
I think his best chance is as a receiver in a west coast style offense. Maybe get him the ball on short routes, give him some room to run, and of course, get out of bounds. He could probably run a good fly route as well due to his speed and his 6'+ height.
Obviously if his numbers didn't prove it already, this incident showed that he's not capable of leading a team as QB. I echo the points about how his toughness, or lack there of, would fail him as a running back. Honestly, watching Reggie Bush more or less flop has me thinking that maybe this whole "weapon" theory of a versatile player on offense is bunk. Marshall Faulk did it really well, but he was always a really good straight up running back too.
How, exactly, did Michael Vick get screwed?
Does Vick even have the body type to be a running back? He seems pretty slight. Have people seen Maurice Jones-Drew's lower body?
Charging into the line and trying to explode through holes is a lot different from scrambling after a play breaks down. Admittedly, he is great in the open field on a broken play, especially when linebackers in coverage have to wait for him to cross the line of scrimmage before they can commit to pursuing him, but that is a different skill set than a typical running back's. Would he even be considered that fast as a running back or receiver?
I think Josh is right, it's Kordell Stewart time for him.
He has the perfect body-type. Click through and read the link.
He got incarcerated for a year because a certain segment of our population look at dogs as part of their family. That's how he got screwed.
The mistake that I think a lot of people are making is to assume his skillset has not fundamentally declined over the two - three years he will have been out of the league. Vick is at an age where speed starts to go on almost all athletes. Add in the fact that his conditioning program cannot have been up to par with what a standard NFL player gets over the last two years and the fact that he has been away from the game for quite awhile and I don't think he will be anywhere near the same specimen he was when we last saw him in uniform. The one positive is that he's been spared hits the last few years but I don't think that will offset aging and being away from the game completely.
I'm trying to think of an elite athlete who did a bid and came back at the same level. Tyson sure didn't (though he was overrated to begin with, but that's neither here nor there). Add in the fact that Vick was never all that successful as a QB, and TNC's spot on observation that he probably doesn't have the heart to run in between the tackles, and I think his best case scenario is a special teams specialist type role. And that's if an NFL team wants to gamble on all the bad PR it would get for a 30 year old who hasn't seen the field in years. My best guess? He probably follows his brother's route. Signs onto someone's practice squad, maybe gets in a few games, but is never again an NFL regular at any position.
Also, let's not debate whether Vick got screwed--again. It was argued ad nauseum at the time. Please don't derail with a vent-fest.
Fair enough. Not another peep out of me.
Vick did get screwed. Just not in the way you think. He got screwed the same way Randall Cunningham got screwed. He's never been in an offense to suit his talents. He's a down field passer. Not a West Coast offense type QB. And if you want to try and make him a West Coast offense QB, give him proper instruction and teaching. Let him spend a year or two with Mike Holmgren(or Shanahan .. guys who know what they are doing .. Jim Mora, Jr. isn't an offense guy).
Deleted. No disrespect. But I asked people not to threadjack. Please don't.
Sorry. I wandered away from my desk and hadn't refreshed before posting. I didn't mean to disrespect your request.
No disrespect taken. The phrase "no disrespect" means, in what I'm about to say, I mean "no disrespect" to you. I didn't want it to come off as personal.
No, I got that! No worries; I just didn't want you to think I'd come in and deliberately pooped all over your house.
No disrespect taken. The phrase "no disrespect" means, in what I'm about to say, I mean "no disrespect" to you. I didn't want it to come off as personal.
I tend to agree with Dan W - receiver in a West Coast offense. I think he would get pounded to pieces as a straight-up running back.
Off-topic, I am glad I at least understand this topic. I don't think I understood a single word of the previous post. TNC gets going on Karen O and wood elves, and it's Sullivan time for me, since I have nothing to offer beyond my own bewilderment.
Vick is a good running quarterback. People forget that John Elway's lifetime completion percentage was less than 57% and he had far more reliable receivers than Vick. Running quarterbacks all have the same problem--they forget that the point of the quarterback position is to spread the ball around, not keep it in their own hands. Only Steve Young understood this, and that may well have been because he warmed the bench for several years for a quarterback that was excellent at it.
The questions about Vick are not his skill set; there are many teams in the NFL without quarterbacks with his skills; the questions about Vick go to character, leadership--the kinds of intangibles that are required at the quarterback position.
More than anything, I think CHFF - and others - are overlooking the fact that passer rating, passing yards and passing yards per attempt aren't, or shouldn't be, the sole measures of quarterbacking success. There's more than one way to move an offense from the qb position, you know?
Sure, the pu-pu platter of Harrington, Leftwich and Redman were better through the air than Vick. But how did that translate into meaningful offensive success? If throwing and completing passes were all it took to build a solid offense, then the Saints would have made the playoffs last season.
No, Vick will never be a prototypical NFL passer. But I don't think that has to be a bad thing. I mean, the Falcons had an unprecedented run of success during his time running the offense. Vick can sling it well enough but the threat of him running from the qb position is what made him such a dangerous weapon.
Moving him to running back would take away that element of surprise. It's not as simple as lining him up in an I-formation and handing him the ball 10-15 times a game. Playing running back is something you have to learn, and repetition at the position matters. He'll have to learn to take handoffs, follow his blockers, pick his way through traffic, ball security, etc. - in short, it's not gonna happen at 29.
Now if it's his only way back into the league, then he should do what he's gotta do. But trying to convince him to switch positions - particularly a position he's played his entire life - is a bad move. Really, in Vick's case, the NFL just can't get past its own lack of offensive creativity.
Amen.
Yup. Their own numbers bear that out.
"The team's historic 5.47 YPA on the ground with Vick in 2006 fell sharply to a middling 3.95 YPA in 2007, before recovering in 2008 (4.36 YPA) behind Pro Bowl RB Michael Turner.
The Falcons averaged 5.70 YPA passing behind Vick in 2006, and 5.93 YPA passing behind the back-up all-stars in 2007."
So the drop of 1.5 YPA rushing is balanced by the rise of 0.23 YPA passing? That doesn't really jive. IF you count the number of failed passing plays Vick turns into positive yards instead of incompletions, he looks much better. I'd rather have 2nd and 7 instead of 2nd and 10, and that's what Vick gives you. I wish there was a way to parse QB rushing attempts on pass plays.
Seriously, what kind of genuis would try to saddle a QB like Vick in a West Coast offense, which thrives on timing, precision and accuracy? That's why I find these CHFF numbers unpersuasive, cause Vick spent his last couple of seasons playing in an offense that was clearly unsuited for him.
That's a fair point, especially considering his receiving options. Brian Finneran and Peerless Price are no Rice and Taylor
I'll raise the issue of Young again. He learned how. When he was first a starter, Young left his slot and wide recievers high and dry over the middle when they ran slants, a staple of the West Coast offense. He was a phenomenal runner with a cannon for an arm. His passes, unlike Montana's had very little touch and were often uncatchable--high and hard. But, what made Young special was that he adapted, he learned. When Vick came into the league the comparisons to Young--great runner, lefty, huge arm--were all there. In fairness to Vick, he never got the time to sit and watch a great quarterback, did not have a Bill Walsh, an offensive line, or receivers on the line of scrimmage or out of the backfield that Young had. But few if any in that mold ever did become more than what they were to begin with. Would someone say here Vick has been almost as good as Randall Cunningham? Whither Vince Young?
Right. The problem is that most NFL coaches and offensive coordinators all use some version of the same playbook - which I assume was written on a stone tablet by Bill Walsh.
Now there's some obvious benefit to staying in your lane, perfecting the craft and coming up with your own twist. But it doesn't allow for much creativity, and it leaves out a helluva lot of guys who dominated the college ranks but can't find a fit at the next level.
I'm thinking of guys like Tommie Frazier, Vick, Vince, Woody Dantzler, Jamelle Holieway, etc etc. And up until recently, if a black quarterback showed even the slightest bit of athleticism, they tried to shift him to defensive back or receiver. DMac sort of shook them out of that mindset, I think.
Obviously, I'm not advocating the use of the wishbone in the League. But it wouldn't kill folks to think outside of the box once in awhile.
"and it leaves out a helluva lot of guys who dominated the college ranks but can't find a fit at the next level."
Defenses are much faster in the NFL than in the college ranks, and an option quarterback would get hit a lot, and probably have a short career because of that.
the Falcons had an unprecedented run of success during his time running the offense.
True, but with their success using a rookie QB, it's hard to see that they need Vick back.
I'm not saying that you have to run out of the option 50-60 plays a game, but if the Wildcat can find sporadic success in NFL, why can't an offense that occasionally utilizes a dual-threat QB?
I just don't understand why everyone has to be Dave Krieg or Ryan Leaf or any generic 6-5, 230-pound stiff to be the NFL prototype.
The problem as I see it is NFL linebackers. When I saw Vince Young play in college, that was my first thought; NFL linebackers are just too quick. As long as the NFL has killer fast interior linebackers, plays designed for running quarterbacks are, like the wildcat for running backs, novelties at best. We'll see how long the wildcat has much of an effect.
It's not that I don't believe there isn't room for running quarterbacks, but in the end I think the problem is not unlike a player like Allen Iverson in pro basketball. He is a great player, a terrific athlete, plays with enormous heart, but a point guard has to be able to distribute the ball.
Similarly, a quarterback has to be able to distribute the ball. Running qbs tend to take the whole game on their shoulders, which is inefficient, and any quarterback who does not get the short passing game today will not be able to move the ball. A seven yard pass with four or five options for doing so is so much easier to pull off than a seven yard run with one, maybe two options for doing so. That's the great genius of the Walsh offense.
The issue isn't Dave Kreig, who was ok, or Ryan Leaf whom no one would consider in Vick's class, but that just as the less athletic prototypes need to learn footwork, escapability, and the short game, the runners must learn how get the ball out of their hands and into the hands of their other skill players. Quarterbacks must learn to see the field and make good decisions, must learn to throw with touch, and Vick has not shown that he can.
Speedy linebackers certainly weren't a problem for Vick.
But going all Wildcat and option isn't even necessary, IMO. If you just have Vick roll-out every pass play, that'll give pause to the linebackers and safeties. Since they have to take his running into account, that opens up things for his receivers down the field.
I tend to disagree. In the end, even Steve Young had his bell rung too many times, the final time on a roll out. And anyone who can tell me that Vick was a better runner early in his career than Young needs to go back and look at the tapes of Young in his early days.
I think the issue is not coordinators or systems, but a willingness to learn the position. In the pros, you have to be a complete player. I think Vick has the physical skills, but for whatever reason has not developed them. Whether he rolls out or stays in the pocket, decision making, seeing the field are essentials. Few qbs whomever they are, whatever skill set they bring from college, can afford to stop learning once they get to the pro level.
Football, more than any other major sport is a team game, and on offense, the quarterback must be a team leader who inspires confidence and gets his teammates involved. Perhaps now that he has had so many setbacks and he's probably lost a half step or so, he will have the desire if someone gives him an opportunity, but so few of that style qb ever has changed, it appaars doubtful. Nonetheless, there are teams in the NFL who could probably use Vick if he has the good sense to lower an asking price and get his game on the field do the money work. Performance is the name of the game; it's show me time for Michael Vick.
In addition, a Peyton Manning had to learn how to read the defense and make the right pass pretty quickly, cause all he could do was pass. A Vick or a Young, as a rookie or second-year player, can get away with not reading the defense as well, cause if worst comes to worst, they can take off. I speculate that you end up with longer learning curves for running QBs, as some of those skills develop only when they become truly necessary.
I just plain disagree. I loved Steve Young, and he was a great runner, and there are some highlights out there that'll blow your mind. But those first couple of seasons, Vick was a force of nature.
But the coordinators or the system are huge factors in learning the position. That's why it's so bad for a QB to have multiple coordinators during their first few seasons. If you're forced to rethink your instincts on every play ("pocket's breaking down, should run, no can't run, gotta finish my progressions, etc.") it'll surely have an effect on your performance. And the only way to get past that is to do the same thing over and over and over again.
And if I recall correctly, bad decision making (on the field) wasn't really a problem for Vick. I'll have to chase down his INT numbers, but I don't remember him throwing an excess number of INTs.
In addition, it's not like the West Coast offense is some sort of football holy grail. Walsh created it cause he had a QB in Cincy who couldn't throw downfield. Walsh could have easily said "well, he doesn't have the skill set to perform in the league" but instead he sat down and figured out an offense that played to his strengths. That's what great coaches do. Mediocre, fired-in-two-years coaches try to force square pegs into round holes.
Last point, let's not pretend Vick was some kind of poot butt in the league. He led his team to the NFC Championship game, and did the then-unhead of by going into Green Bay and winning in the playoffs. After that his play seemed to decline. It could have been the injuries, it could have been defenses catching up to him, it could have been coordinators forcing him into a system that doesn't work, it could have been Vick stopped learning, it could have been a bit of all of the above. But to say he didn't have the skill set to succeed ignores the very real success that he had.
That was supposed to be a reply to CitizenE, but there was no Reply link at the bottom of his comment.
They don't have to be. There's also a spectrum between being a stiff and being a Vince Young; there are quarterbacks who use their athletic ability to buy themselves more time to pass the ball. Here's Doug WIlliams on this, from an NY Times article last year:
Mike Vick isn't made for running back but I could see him as a slot reciever that could run the Wildcat formation from time to time. I always thought in the right system he could dominate as a quarterback but there just aren't any Offensive Coordinators in the NFL willing to craft an offense just for him knowing that if he gets hurt there is zero chance that a backup could do the same things. Besides that the QB position is ALWAYS the face of the franchise and nobody is going to want to bring on that kind of headache. But I think he has the speed quickness and toughness to play wideout the only question is if he can catch. Alternately he might make a very good punt/kick returner as well.
While not about Mike Vick, here is Deion Sanders and Michael Irvin talking about the T.O. situation courtessy of Sports On My Mind.
http://tinyurl.com/cj5fjo
I have another case against Michael Vick. And albeit the bait looks tempting.. the story is too sad.
With Cutler (Fuck you very much McDaniels) on the block, I think Denver tries to get Vick.