A while back a buddy of mine was critiquing the whole "white people can't dance" thing. His point was that so many black kids, historically, grow up in conditions where all you have to control is your body. You have no other real way to demonstrate power, and so "body control" becomes a measure of power. Indeed the great popular dancers in our cosmology--James Brown, Michael Jackson etc.--had so much control that it almost seemed like they weren't even exerting any. They looked they weren't trying.
Anyway, he was saying that whenever he hears black people brag about being able to dance better than white folks, he has to laugh to himself. It's like a kid from Harlem bragging to some Wall Street dude about the width of his gold rope. "You have to be able to dance," my buddy said. "because you have nothing else." On the contrary, when you see that white dude out on the floor, he's free to just enjoy himself. He has nothing at stake--nothing hanging in the balance. For us it's ritual. But for them--it's just a good time. And they're free to do that. Hell, we wish we lived in a world where we couldn't dance.
I thought of that convo watching this beautiful YYY's performance. Karen O is jumping around, doing what we imagine when we say the "white girl thing." It's quite thrilling--she's leaping all over the place, and there's a kind of submission to herself at work, a sense that she could care less who's watching. And the crowd just loves it. As for me, I desperately wanted her to stop. Because the whole time, thrilling as it was, I was afraid she was going to fall...
UPDATE: For the record, the kid can't dance a lick either. My folks didn't celebrate holidays. I missed all those chances at family dinners to get my coordination right.
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The "body control" theory articulates what I was trying to tell my cousin. We were in a pub on the riverfront in Little Rock and the white boys were checkin for me something fierce. She finally asked, "how do you DO that?" And I know what she meant: attract these southern frat boys into giving me the once over even though she (and many other sistas) are finer than me.
I just told her with all the gravity of Celie advising Harpo, "Don't dance so well."
The effortless grace and power that typifies a black chick dancing metaphorically slams the door in a white dude's face. Look at white girls dancing (and I mean the exuberant, not raised on BET types) and you see this awkward, innocent joy that almost defies description as it defies the beat that should be guiding her. It's oddly attractive.
So, I just stole some of that. Pretend I'm Madonna in the Lucky Star video (Alvin Ailey, my ass, Madge) and just dance like nobody's watching. It's quite fun and evidently inviting.
Everyone should try it.
I don't know whilome, I've had quite the opposite experience. I went to a Southern university with lots of white frat boys and I think the thing that kept them checking my black girlfriends and I out (as is the case now in NYC) was the fact that we could get down with some rhythm on the dance floor. I can't even count how many times white boys have come up, usually because they think that have SOME dance skill themselves and wanting to dance just because I or my friends were one of the few people dancing. The whole encounter usually starts with the phrase "Wow, you ladies are the only ones in here that know how to move..." (Or something similar)
Or maybe they just thought you were hot?!
Hehe pehaps. But I also like to think that some guys think of dancing as the perfect way to run up on a woman you didn't have the ahem "courage" to talk to in the first place.
Nevermind the guys that just try to push up on you, (the booty sneakers my friends and I have termed them...), but just the guys who see you dancing and having a good time and they see a window. I think that's a thing for some of the white boys too, they see a huge group of black girls dancing and having fun and they seen an opportunity. For the most part, it's probably the easiest time to talk to that group of girls, because we will be more than happy to break out of our groove for a 5 minute rendition of "go white boy, go white boy" (I know its so wrong...)
No, I think it's so RIGHT. I've been that white boy.
Funny Stacy,
My black girlfriends and I, all fairly self-sufficient, confident, intelligent--always feel the need to create reasons why a "white guy" would step to one of us. When it happens it's still a shock, and we're all learning to undo that reaction.
We didn't realize it until a mutual friend reminded us that maybe it was just pure attraction.
No, I think it's so RIGHT. I've been that white boy.
I cracked up at that. So it was YOU!!
I think you are right Bellelsa. My friends and I have been guilty of that in the past, but at this point, (especially after dating a few white guys myself) I've begun to realize that there usually isn't any main rhyme or reason other than the normal attraction that exists between a man and a woman. Sometimes that attraction does start on the dance floor.
I think the dancing with the girls around white boys scenario is probably the one that most deeply excavates my own hangups. My first reaction is usually to stop dancing immediately in reaction to some "I'm not fulfilling any chocolate fantasies!" feelings. Then I ususally check myself, and throw it on 'em.
You know what's funny, Amari, I know that what you describe is the typical reaction, and it's completely understandable. But that's why I responded to dragonfly like that earlier. Because yes, there are some white guys out there who are looking to fulfill a chocolate fantasy, but other times, they really DO just find you attractive. Most just might be too insecure to approach you in a serious way, so it's like "hey, I'll just go dance with her, even though she might look at me like I'm an idiot." But maybe I'm describing a different type of guy than what you're thinking of...
@Stacy: Because yes, there are some white guys out there who are looking to fulfill a chocolate fantasy, but other times, they really DO just find you attractive. Most just might be too insecure to approach you in a serious way, so it's like "hey, I'll just go dance with her, even though she might look at me like I'm an idiot."
I was just having a conversation with a friend the other day about the way white boys approach me, and why I tend not to notice.
I (and a lot of my friends who grew up in inner cities taking public transportation to and from school) have been getting approached by (grown) Black men since I was probably about 13 years old. And from my experience, the way Black men approach tends to be waaaaay more aggressive and sexualized than I think a white man would.
So what happens is Black men set a certain threshold that throws off my ability to notice any type of approach beneath that threshold, i.e., the white boy approach.
Consequently, it doesn't even occur to me that the awkward white boy siddling up on the dance floor may actually be trying to let me know he's interested.
@Amari: I think this is so true (I'm half black). I always know when a black guy is hitting on me because I get the obvious, over the top "daammmmnnnnn baby!" Consequently, I have no idea when a white guy is hitting on me. In comparison to the cat calls, anything else is just general conversation.
However, I'm hesitant to group all black guys into the cat call category; I'm sure there are some that are in the same boat as the white boys: so subtle I think they're just conversating! On the other hand, I don't think I've EVER been cat-called by a white guy, construction workers or no.
I've had a similar experience and I went to school in L.A. (with lots of white frat boys) and now live back in Oakland which apparently is full of white guys who want to get their groove on. The white guys that do come up to my friends and I really do think that they have some skills or at least are better than their fellow white folks on the whole.
Whether we agree with their dance skills or not is another issue. Part of me wonders if they think that if they can dance they can ask us out.
Hmm.
That's an interesting question, but none of the white guys I've ever dated have been able to dance, so I know they never made that assumption. I don't think it should be a requirement though and I didn't mind. I found it ok, because honestly many of the black guys I know don't really try to dance, though we all assume that they can.
Yeah, I'm feelin you, but as an amateur ethnographer of the new urban whiteboy (yeah, we exist), I've noticed a dichotomy: the guys trying to join in a good time and ones who view dancing as a metaphor for something more carnal. Those dudes do NOT like to be outperformed.
A new twist is the whitegirls who CAN bring it on the dance floor. They are far and wide nowadays. Yet, I see the bridge and tunnel crowd giving those girls the sideeye. It's all so very silly.
I'm officially off the market (yep, to a white dude), so I only observe and report from the sidelines these days. But I still recommend the dancing like you can't every once in a while. It's strangely freeing.
i believe this kind of dancing gets filed under "wildin' out"
she looks like an anime character
Still, for all of that, she's on beat and using muscle to adjust for balance. She wasn't even close to falling, nor half as unrestrained I'll bet as some of the audience were likely to be. Style, however, was a bit dorky and fetchingly so. Personally, it was her smile that caught my attention--she was feeling it, and feeling it has a balance to it all its own.
I don't know. It's certainly an interesting theory, but isn't it possible that black people, generally speaking, are just better dancers than white people? Maybe it's just the way it's been ingrained in me, but black people really DO seem to have better rhythm. Most white people that can't dance well aren't choosing to not follow the rhythm, they just CAN'T follow the rhythm as well. For instance, watch a Showtime at the Apollo and listen to the audience clap in time with a talented guest. Then watch an American Idol audience try to do the same. There is nothing more frustrating then watching an inept audience try to clap in time with a performer.
Dude, do you know how this happens? When you're like two, at family dinners, the old folks drag out the kids and then make them dance. Seriously, mo-fos can sometimes keep a beat before they can talk--or around the same time. If I took a kid from Helsinki and raised him like that, he'd be able to dance too.
It's tragic and hilarious all at once. And so, ultimately, just human.
Sorry, TNC, Ihate to prove your theory wrong...but I too went thru this ritual...and STILL don't have rhymth...so I guess I would be callled an anamoly or some such.
I meant "disprove" your theory. (Dang...typos)
That's just the exception that proves the rule. I got a white playcousin that was made to "do the Michael Jackson" just like the rest our asses and he can dance til this day.
i WON a family dance contest at age 6 for my rendition of the Twist. i remember feeling so proud as all my older family members smiled and congratulated me for being such a good dancer!
as i reflect on it now, the contest may have been rigged.
i am also guilty of trying to teach a 14-month old to clap to a beat. the child couldn't even walk [and he wasn't even my own cousin!], but i wanted him to have an integral understanding of 4-4 time.
after having tried to teach a 33-year old [white] man to dance, and ultimately hearing "oh, so i'm supposed to move my body to the music?!" i realized it may be easier to acquire rhythm in your earliest years, in the same way that its easier for young children to learn a second language.
Why is this tragic? Some culture value certain attributes, traits, lessons, more than others. Perhaps dancing may in fact just be very important in African-American culture no? Why it is important is another question. This thread boils down to what seems, that old nature vs. nurture argument. You to have implied the "nurture" argument with the "Helsinki" remark. I agree, if the culture in Helsinki valued dancing that much to make two year-olds do it at family gatherings, well yeah, the people would be incredible dancers.
Dancing is an art form. Why is this a tragic thing for this particular art form to be such a fixture in african-american culture? Not sarcastic here. Genuinely confused.
I plead ignorance.
It's tragic because every kid doesn't want that sort of pressure. Also, the full quote is this, "It's tragic and hilarious all at once. And so, ultimately, just human." It isn't just tragic.
It's also tragic because dancing is a joyous gift, and it can make people happy when they do it.
I'm with nurture.
Exactly. There was this video going around of a little white boy dancing spastically. In his home, his family laughs and claps and he will probably keep doing what he's doing straight through his wedding day. In a black or Latino home, he would have been laughed at, told to never do that again, and then taught how to dance by some cousins. Frankly, I prefer the latter, maybe just because that's how I came up. I generally just don't agree with the idea that the "white way," as we're defining Karen O and others, is somehow freer or more genuinely expressive. You can lose yourself and still dance well, once you get the rhythm in you. It's like saying a professional drummer is less genuinely expressive than a kid banging on pots and pans. The development of a skill doesn't squash genuine excitement. In fact, I rather prefer dancing with the kids who can carry a rhythm and are totally in the music* than be standing around with the kids laughing awkwardly and doing mock steps to mask their insecurity. It gets real old.
*Some of these kids are white. Just because your family is one way doesn't mean the individual can't take things into their own hands.
Well, yes in the Latino home (for a good portion of us at least, I am Latina) dancing is pretty important, quite a bit of that is done at family parties and there are generally, a lot of big family parties.
I got the full quote, understood the human, and hilarious part, wasn't quite sure where you were coming from Coates, with the tragic part is all. Wasn't quite getting the subtext of your meaning, but now I get what you were trying to say. O.K.
This is of course, off topic (slightly) but this discussion sort of reminds me of a conversation at work once with a Jewish colleague. She was complaining about the pressure in her family, and in her culture (her words) put on educational achievement; she felt it was so intense it was adversely affecting the kids in her family. She wasn't cool with that.
Tragic? One of the fonder memories of my childhood were the dance contests my brother and 'play cousins' had in front of our parents.. I am still prone to breaking out in a 'running man' every once in a while. Especially, if I am trying to run away an overly enthusiastic dance partner. ;)
Man, your family dinners sound so much cooler than mine.
Hell yeah it's possible that black people dance better than white people, with obvious exceptions of course.
I think its more genetic than TNC and his friend let on. After all, I don't think poor white people who ain't got shit dance better than rich white people. Probably the contrary in fact, to the extent that culrture and upbringing do play a role. I grew up as what some might consider white trash, and dancing was considered, err, "gay", or something that girls did for guys (aside: I remember seeing my first black frat dance and thinking "wow, this is super-gay!"). The only respectable dance a white trash guy could do without being called a F@G was "the beer dance". I've since moved beyond that attitude, although I haven't progressed much in skill.
I just think that most blacks tend to have better muscle/body control than most whites. I don't think that white people aren't able to feel beats and rhythms (were okay at composing and performing music after all), I think rather that we have a tougher time moving our bodies in concert with them. I know, this doesn't explain clapping off-beat, but that's really unexplainable to me, I mean how effing hard is it to clap to the beat white people? Perhaps it's white people's general reluctance to dance and express their emotion through body movement that causes insecurity and hesitation and thereby takes them off-beat. Someone needs to do a study.
Now explain Russian/Slavic dominance in ballet. ;-) Or the evolution of what we in the West call the "belly dance." Or the way those Roma move.
Yeah... I have to come down on the nurture-not-nature side.
It could be also because so many White families are not physically affectionate, so children do not develop their tactile, kinesthetic sense as fully because they are not being touched as often and affectionately. I absolutely think this Anglo tradition affects development as much as any cultural rituals from other traditions.
"I think its more genetic than TNC and his friend let on."
Well it's "genetic" in the narrow sense that you inherit body type and athleticism from parents.
However, the races are not genetically distinct from one another, so you're not going to find a "dance gene" that blacks have and whites don't. There is far more genetic diversity *within* huge categories like "black" and "white" than there is *between* the average white and black person.
I'll sixth (or so) the nurture side. (Besides the argument that rb makes, correctly, that 'maybe race x is just better at y' is almost always unscientific.) If we all lived in tree house cities we'd have much better average balance as a society, and our most wobbly individuals would still have a minimum competency through constant practice. Same with speaking a tonal language attuning one to tones in music.
No one in my family danced for sheer fun growing up; the big Latina family celebrations happening several times a year, with cousins training your dance moves, is an alien experience. (I'm a pretty good dancer--some training, and I like it--despite a pretty poor sense of rhythm. Sense of rhythm is definitely key.)
Nurture has to be important, but genetics probably plays a big role also. West African blacks (where most of the American slaves came from) have a much higher fast twitch/slow twitch muscle ratio than most Caucasian populations do. This accounts for why those of West African descent constitute most of the best sprinters and jumpers in the world (and basketball players, running backs, wide receivers, etc). It's also why it's commonly said "white guys can't jump". Now, I don't think it's a big leap (pun intended) to suggest that those with this kind of muscle proportions would also make better dancers than those without. It's far from universal of course. Not all blacks in the US are west African, not all west Africans have predominantly fast twitch muscles, but the general genetic profile favors that. The exceptions simply demonstrate that genetics is very broad and variant within any population group.
It's not even dependent on "athleticism", its the kind of athleticism involved. White men tend to have greater upper body strength, which is why they tend to be linemen in football and weight-lifters. But the same muscle genetics which favor them in such fields probably makes them lousy dancers, where a quick and fluid muscle response probably looks best on the dance floor.
I am ashamed to admit -- hanging my head in shame -- that I one of those rare breeds -- a black person that really can't dance. No one can imagine the looks of horror and dismay I would get from my friends and family whenever I attempted to sway to the beat at family gatherings or house parties...and would always be a beat or two behind everyone else. (That is the way most white people dancing appear to most black folks -- white people always seem to be moving to the beat of another song or just one or two steps behind the rest of the crowd.)
However, I have seen some incredibly smooth dancing white people. I am speaking of house and hip hop and club dancing -- not Fred Astaire ballroom dancing. I have looked at a few in awe -- and envy -- cursing how they got the dancing gene that unfairly missed me.
I'm black and I can't really dance either. I don't trip over myself or anything, but I don't have skills.
"On the contrary, when you see that white dude out on the floor, he's free to just enjoy himself. He has nothing at stake--nothing hanging in the balance. For us it's ritual. But for them--it's just a good time."
Ah, it depends on the situation. When I was younger, I was terrified of dancing and looking like a fool. That seems to be a widespread fear among white guys from different backgrounds, e.g., I remember leafing through a book about the NY Rangers where some Canadian player from the sticks talked about how terrified he was of dancing when he first went to New York clubs -- and this was an athlete who of course had good "body control", and had the courage to make his living in a violent sport. What it comes down to, I think, is the seeming (to us) lack of structure of black dancing (or, in some cases the too-intricate structure). White people who aren't attuned to it feel more comfortable with a simple structure and some guidelines. That's probably why line dancing is so popular in the country bars: you learn the steps, and everyone does them together. Less chance of screwing up and looking like a fool. Same thing with square dancing back in the day.
Karen O. is the lead singer in a band -- that's a totally different deal. She's dancing to her own music, so who's to say she's doing it wrong? And I doubt anyone who has the confidence to make her living on a stage is going to be afraid of dancing in other contexts.
Most dancing does have prescribe steps, hell, black folks line dance like nobody's business. The point is the ritualization of the dance: it was a given at a family gathering that the kids got pulled out to dance. Some dances had names, "the neckwork, the wop, the smurf, etc." and some were just little routines we cooked up behind the couch. The cultural distinction was the place it took in our culture compared to elite society. I say, elite, because truth-be-told, poor scots-irish folk can dance and sing their ASSES off.
When it's all you have...you have that. Body control.
I think it's why so many gay boys can tear up a floor.
Sheesh, am I going to feel bad for anybody that moonwalks now? criminy.
If the dance has prescribed steps and you don't know them, it can be just as intimidating. I've never been, but I've heard that at a lot of those country bars they have classes where they break everything down for new people.
This made me think--the one friend with whom my daughter usually did the "make up a routine behind the couch" thing is a girl whose white parents are a professional singer and a guitar player. "What you do at family parties" indeed.
I can dance quite well. Part of that is because my mom was a professional classical dancer and also because I went to high school with a lot of black people. After practicing with some of my friends there, I could dance as well as anyone. I am still probably the best dancer among my friends. So much so, that it is almost embarrassing because I'm always being asked to dance or show off a particular move.
The question is, at least for me, can I dance because it is hereditary (my mom) or was it a learned behavior (my high school)?
"The question is, at least for me, can I dance because it is hereditary (my mom) or was it a learned behavior (my high school)?"
Why can't it be a combination of both?
No offense, but your friend's theory is silly. What does it mean to say "Black people can dance?" What kind of dancing are we talking about? Does it mean that a poor black kid would have a leg up in a ballet class over a rich white kid, since we "have to control our bodies?" I have a friend who teaches salsa dancing, and she says her black students are the worst, cause they have a different rhythm ingrained in their heads, so they have to unlearn that first. I learned how to dance so that I wouldn't be ignored by the black girls at the parties when I was young. The girls at the white parties didn't care if I danced or not. Not everything is about oppression.
You make a good point here. Some of my Af Am friends, who are all excellent dancers, are lost when it comes to dancing to Carribbean music -- music from Jamaica, Trinidad, etc. Carribbean women can really break it down on the dance floor when they are gyrating to their home countries music, while most AF Am woman -- not all -- can't compete with them when this music is being played.
Salsa isn't the popular music in this country. And ballet isn't popular dance. For at least the past half-century a disproportionate percentage of pop music has either been black music, or derived from black music. That's just true.
I don't think anyone here is making a case--in any sort of absolute terms--that black people dance better than whites. I don't think that's what this post says. As for whether my man's opinion is silly or not, it's just his opinion. He's just a black guy with one. There millions of us out there.
This is completely reasonable. Black music and black dance had been the dominant cultural influence in the recorded music era, so black people who have grown up immersed in that culture have a leg up (no pun intended) when it comes to that kind of dancing.
But to say, like your man did, that it's because "all you have to control is your body" or "You have to be able to dance because you have nothing else....that white dude out on the floor, he's free to just enjoy himself," is straining too hard to be deep. It's some straight Francis Cress Welsing type ish.
Right. I'm just answering your question about what I meant by "black people can dance." Ballet may show body-control, but it isn't the sort of body-control that's prized in the neighborhood. Moreover, at this point, I'm not sure we're any more immersed in Kanye or Beyonce than anyone else.
Think about it differently--not so much as a "control" issue, but as an "achievement" issue. You get a certain amount of cache from being able to dance--much like you get a certain amount of cache from having a nice car, nice clothes, a good job etc. But dancing only requires you work with what God gave you, not much else. It's analogous to basketball--a crate and a ball is all you really need.
Salsa is certainly African in its roots via the Caribbean and mixed with Spanish. The drum at the heart of it is African. In North America it came into our music via Puerto Rico as well as Cuba, and if you listen, the beats are in evrything from Jazz to Soul to Rhythm and Blues; dance beat country and rock and roll certainly have adopted it via TexMex. Now Salsa dancing with its hands on coupling, all that complex ballroom stuff, that's a different story--I don't know of any contemporary dance styles that are so disciplined. While some folks dance in a more stylized way, there's always an element of freestyle black and white to what goes down in a club or party or dance hall.
Satchel Paige said it best you want to dance like no one's looking, love like you've never had your heart broken.
Salsa is definitely built on African rhythms, specifically the Afro-Cuban clave beat found in rumba, mambo, etc. The thing is there isn't one specific African rhythm, and different beats took hold in different parts of the African diaspora. Most African-American music is built off of jazz, blues, and spirituals taken in this or that direction.
There is crossover. For example the early rock song "Hey Bo Diddley" by Bo Diddly has the 3/2 clave rhythm, which sort of filtered around the deep south. Probably the same roots. And Dominican merengue has more of that steady 4/4 you see in African-American music.
Part of the issue is that African-Americans don't really do partner dance like they used to. In the 40s, 50s, and 60s, there was tons of Latino/Black crossover with the Swing, Lindy Hop, Boogaloo, Mambo, and other partner dances that were big in both the U.S. and Hispanic Caribbean. There was a lot of common ground that disappeared as Af-Ams moved away from that kind of dance but Latinos sort of stuck with it (til reggaeton that is...).
Don't know if you've seen some of these, but the Lonely Island guys have had some fun with spastic dancing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co0C1OMJe8g&feature=channel_page
Bill Hader always shows disdain.
I am a tall, skinny-ish white guy, and I have been a kidnap-victim/dance-partner for heart-stoppingly hot black women twice in my life. Once at a King Sunny Adé show; I was wearing a T-shirt and jeans like I always do, and somehow got recruited as the dance partner for a tall caramel-skinned goddess in a silver dress like a layer of paint. The other time, I was actually hauled onstage by one of the backup singers for the funk-rock band Madhouse during a Black Rock Coalition gig at CBGBs. I can hold my own in a moshpit or a slam circle (and make no mistake, the pit has rules, without even getting into the etiquette of stage diving - ah, Fishbone shows back in the day), but dancing in the traditional sense is utterly beyond my range of skills. So both these occasions were exhilarating and terrifying, roughly akin to that Six Flags ride where they just drop you down the side of a scaffolding. And I have no clue why it was me that got my card pulled, either. I guess I already looked like I was having fun...
Heh, this reminds me of something. Years ago, I was working at this not-too-big brokerage in Midtown, that had its Christmas party at this bar/club in the East Village for some reason. There were a few black guys who worked in the office -- one African immigrant, and a couple of African Americans. I happened to be talking with the African guy in the bar area and one of those African American guys was standing nearby. I don't remember if the other African American guy was even at the party, maybe he didn't show up. Anyhow, one of the managers -- this short, nerdy-looking white guy -- comes over and tries to drag the African American guy onto the dance floor, as if the dancing aspect of the Christmas party wouldn't have been authentic if the black guy weren't out there cutting it up.
Ok...I finally got a chance to watch the Karen O clip. This is not dancing...if it is, then I have been way too hard on myself. Next to Karen O, I dance like Beyonce or Ciara.
Ciara -- is she the one who had that "one-two step" song? With that video where she walks down the street teaching people this complicated-ass moonwalking type of dance? Ta-Nehisi should post a video of that.
Last time I danced was last summer with a Thai au pair (it wasn't as hot as it sounds). But I suck as a dancer and try to avoid it at all costs. I have very few male friends who like to go out dancing. The one that does will do so more to dominate women. He usually does this once he is totally hammered and his wife is not around.
I'm friends with a lot of the southern frat boys the posters above are talking about, and I really disagree with the idea that white people are "free" to dance badly. The white guys of my acquaintance dance badly because the only time they do it is when they are blackout drunk. Sober, most of those guys are TERRIFIED to dance, because their friends will make fun of them: if they dance badly, they get made fun of for dancing badly, and if they dance well, they get made fun of for looking "gay." A white guy who dances well, in this universe, looks "gay" in much the same, baffling way as a guy who admits to liking cats, poetry or art. (It's worth noting that most of these guys seriously don't have anything against actual gay people, and, when pressed, in private, have nothing against cats, poetry, or art.) It's just that somewhere along the line in WASPy culture, dancing became something that women, not men, are into, and liking dancing became associated with being feminine. I suspect it has more than a little to do with upper class southern moms making their sons go to cotillions.
The other issue with "bad" white dancing is that a lot of rock that white people listen to has roots back in the whole hippy 60s thing. The folks at woodstock weren't dancing funny because they were white; they were dancing funny because they were HIGH. I suspect there are traces of this in Karen O's performance. The alcohol factor really can't be underestimated, here: I doubt most black people would look too great dancing to "sweet home alabama" or whatever after doing keg stands, either.
You're on to something with this:
But I am not sure if this supports it:
I'm not an expert on cotillions, but I don't think the point anyone would get from them is that dancing is just for women. Cotillions (and debutante balls) are formal dancing as a courtship ritual. Men are expected to be gentlemen in this context, not feminine, which isn't the same thing (perhaps that distinction has been lost to most men who haven't been exposed to these sorts of formal social rituals). If you're growing up in this sort of a society (whether the Southern version or the Northeastern WASP one), and you are interested in girls, you meet them by going to these dances. In that social circle, not being into those dances would probably make people question your heterosexuality.
That's what they were back in the day, but now they are miserable things Junior League moms make their fifth and sixth grade kids go to. None of the poor little dudes get any play (and a lot of them are not at the age where they'd be interested in it, anyway). It's all about mom making them wear a suit and eat tea cakes and "behave" for a couple of hours when they'd rather be dirt biking or something. Most of the girls have more fun because at least they get to wear pretty dresses and play with makeup.
Ah, OK. Doing this in elementary school is just ball-busting. I was thinking of high school age kids.
Here was a good discussion of why WASP guys don't dance:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=199772
That's a pretty interesting thread. I get all the guys who said "I just don't like to dance": if you don't like it, you don't like it, and I know girls who don't like to dance, too. But so many of them said "I don't dance because it looks stupid." That made me think that maybe part of the issue is that there isn't any culturally acceptable "white" popular dances or dance music anymore- if a white guy really busts it out on the dance floor, usually he is doing hip-hop dance moves, to hip-hop. It can, in fact, look a little stupid because he looks like he's trying to be somebody he's not, dancing to music with lyrics that don't have much to do with him. I'm talking about the preppy white dudes of my acquaintance here, not more urban white dudes where it might not be so incongruous. But I get the impression from my grandparents that back in "American Bandstand" days it wasn't the same, and you could look "cool" dancing as a WASPy white dude. (Although of course the dances and music still had black roots). Perhaps it's telling that the one time I could get my superannuated fratter boyfriend to show any interest in dancing was when I mentioned Lindy Hop lessons. (Extent of interest: he said he might do it if I REALLY wanted to.)
This, I think, has a lot to do with why all my dance partners are either:
-Gay
-Hispanic
-White dudes explicitly in it to bone me
-One black dude who was in it to bone me but didn't come off as skeevy (like the white dudes) because he was actually dancing and enjoying that in addition to the fact that my ass was moving.
I'm not saying these categories have to be mutually exclusive, btw, they just have been in my particular life. Probably because my university is overwhelmingly white and straight when it comes to the male population (there is a decent-sized lesbian contingent, and there seem to be more women than men of various colors here).
At least here, it's okay for straight white guys to dance as long as it's clear they're in it for the mindblowing ass moves. Sadly, at least with me, that significantly lowers their chances because it makes them seem like way bigger assholes than they actually are. This was one thing that was great about my most recent ex; he (a white guy) had some goofy moves, but he was very clearly in it to dance, not just to mime having sex with women.
Man, can you hear me rolling my eyes over there in Harlem? I can do it louder.
I agree with pretty much every other poster on here --- I don't think poverty has dick to do with it, it's growing up in a culture that values being able to dance verses growing up in one that doesn't --- one that in fact devalues it, where for guys being good at it is unmanly and so chicks end up doing that purses on the floor circle thing from The Specials song or not dancing hardly at all because their dude won't. One could perhaps draw an interesting collary between cultures where open emotional expression is the norm and cultures where it's not vis-a-vis good verses bad dancing --- rhythmn is something you feel and show and not just something you hear. Norwegians: Yes to death metal, no to salsa. There's some kind of connection there.
Of course, maybe I'm just bitter because I'm a bad dancer --- I have no rythmn. I can't even jump rope or do Miss Mary Mack, and these were skills that were very much valued during second grade recess.
There's nothing unmanly about being able to dance, if you're black. Sam and Dave, James Brown, Big Daddy Kane could all dance their asses off. What dude didn't try to get the Kid and Play kick-step down?
Yeah, exactly my point. I think it's different for white dudes, mostly. The more I think about it, the more I think it may be linked to the open expression of emotion --- in any dance, the body becomes the instrument through which the emotion of the dance is expressed. There's a bodily control element to it, being on the beat, and lots of dances have prescribed steps --- but being a really good dancer is about feeling the music and showing that through your moves. There's a body control element to sports, to, and guys cross the board seem to have no problem with that (individual guys can be uncoordinated, of course).
All the cultures that are stereotyped as passionate are also stereotyped as good dancers, even the European ones. (Spain and flamneco, Italy and the tarantella, the Irish and their jigs. Even the French --- "the French dancing master," pops up as a minor character in a ton of 18th and 19th century novels.)
So, short answer: White people can't dance because we're uptight. Long way round to the known destination, but there ya go.
And I close with The Specials: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2df30y9sMQ
I think this is exactly right.
Jesus Christ, that singer sucks. Even by white rock&roll standards.
I have to chew on this particular brain food for a bit. But I think my initial reaction is whether you're dancing on the "2 and the 4" or the "1 and the 3" or the 1, the 2, then the 5,8, and 10, the freest dancer is always the one who's doing it like they're the only one in the room. And there's no color constraints on that.
I do want to make one point. Some guys just don't dance because they just do not like to dance, not because they are terrified of how other people will perceive them. It's hard to dance well when your heart is not into it.
It truly is a black-white cultural divide when it comes to men and dancing. Prince, another great black male dancer when he first came on the music scene, used to be the opening act for the Rolling Stones and would get booed off stage by the white (mostly male) audience because he had heavy dance rountines in his act. (He was also probably getting booed because the audience didn't know what to make of this small black man in heels and mascara, singing a mix of rock and roll and soul music. But wait, isn't that the exact same thing the Stones do?)
Booing Prince? EARLY Prince!? wtf. Sometimes we whiteboys really don't get it, do we?
It's true. I had a co-worker who saw Prince open for the Rolling Stones back in the early 80s and she describes exactly what Storm describes above. This was before Prince "broke out" with Little Red Corvette.
Basic point, at least as I'm getting it: being able to dance just comes down to priorities. For instance, some of my friends are really into the local blues dancing scene. From what I understand, most of the guys there are some of the whitest nerds on the planet. They care about knowing how to dance well (partially because it lets them meet girls), so they work at it and get good.
Purely from personal experience, for me not being able to dance is due to the fact that I can't be rhythmic and coordinated at the same time. I'm a rock climber and mostly boulder, so body control is paramount. I have a great time going out dancing and can stay on beat just fine, but don't expect any kind of comprehensible pattern. Some non-conscious part of my brain is running things and I'm more than happy to let it.
I've tried to learn how to dance on more than a couple occasions. But so far tango and swing have both been failures. I just can't seem to stay on the beat and remember how I'm supposed to be moving at the same time. It doesn't help that I have a really difficult time learning movements from watching other people. So really, bad news all around.
At the same time, some of this is also predicated on what you all mean by dancing. Are we just talking about being able to move with the beat or moving in predefined steps, such as tango? If the former, I would say that I'm at least passable. If the latter, then I'm toast.
Dude.
I've had conversations similar to this with my wife for years. She's more easily annoyed than I by folks who can't dance - but cuts me slack because she loves me... I think it's cringeworthy for her, and she'd probably flee the room if she didn't love me (not that I dance with any frequency). But for me - you know, I'm ok with not having any "skill" in this realm, but still being able to enjoy it.
(Yes, the subtext here is that she's black & I'm white.)
I've seen that dance before and it is always that same woman(are they all cloned?).
The thing I'd like to you to look at is a movie 'I'm through with white girls'. If you dance worse than the star in that flick than eat another bowl of popcorn as soon as you get off the floor laughing.
I just wish I could dance as well as Sam Rockwell.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvj8ZEnNrQY
Oh, great, you have now taken the crush on Sam Rockwell that started with this scene from "mild affliction" to "debilitating problem." THANKS A LOT.
I gotta say, she looks to me like she's doing a cross between Riverdance and "little girl spins in field full of dandelions".
And just for the record, white people have a dance tradition. It's square dance, contradance, clogging, and also the polka. That stuff's fun to do, I gotta tell ya. The polka rocks. Nothing like doing a fast polka, it really brings up the spirit. After one such, cheeks are flushed and eyes are shining. It ain't much to look at, but it sure is fun to do.
Now, waltzing on the other hand, looks nice and is also fun to do.
Heh. White-guy-who-can't-dance, here. I'd have to say my experiances (virtually all white highschool in the NE) don't click with the "dancing-is-gay" set; went to a good number of highschool dances (the sort where all the guys get in one circle and all the girls in another, until someone plays a slow song and then they pair off for the slow dance) and while there was little of the dancing you might see in a club, break dancing skills were highly regarded (every few minutes somebody would step into the circle and show off their moves, to much applause). I was much more in the "terrified-to-make-a-fool-of-myself" category, so I never gained the experiance (and perhaps more importantly, confidence) necessary to be able to dance. A guy dancing ballet would have been considered gay, A guy impressing the ladies with his sweet dance moves would not have been.
Anyway, for me the biggest obstacle to being able to dance has been not lack of rhythm (following a beat isn't too hard, though, who knows, maybe I am just fooling myself) but rather the fact that I can't seem to move the top half of me and the bottom half at the same time.
I think part of what's compelling about Karen O. here is a (perceived) difference between performing and feeling. Obviously performing well means you have to feel what you're doing, and obviously she is still definitely performing, but the thing that struck me about her, uh, performance here is how much she's clearly just letting the music speak to and through her. The "doesn't care who's watching" thing is powerful because it makes you feel that the emotion she's expressing through her performance is totally genuine and raw. You wouldn't get that with a choreographed dance (unless you are a serious professional dancer--I have seen some really emotional ballet, for example).
That doesn't mean that "good" dancing, done by black people or not, in this context or on the dance floor, isn't also very expressive and genuine. I just think it's part of the particular distinction you're making. She's made us forget that she's performing; Michael Jackson has never done that for me (largely because he didn't try to--it's not what he was going for).
Damn, I wish it were Friday night and I could go dance right now.
This is so, so true.
OK, I like the videos you post, but I would like to add to your playlist:
For white music I like Venus Hum, I like the very loud version of .
"I Feel Love" with the Blue Man Group (I don't have a valid link)
But this one is a good take. Soul Sloshing...
Here's a link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKCjDuzKEP4
Have fun
Just saw an add for SNL, YYY is on this weekend.
I think the closest to a general rule here is "straight white guys can't dance"--& here's a ex recto theory--it's cause the straight white guy is invisible--he's the norm--he's not used to being objectified--he's subject, not object--he sees his body as a tool, not a target--you can't dance "as if no one is watching you" unless you understand what it's like to be watched....
&why not a poem to end it--Claude McKay, "The Harlem Dancer" (1917):
Applauding youths laughed with young prostitutes
And watched her perfect, half-clothed body sway;
Her voice was like the sound of blended flutes
Blown by black players upon a picnic day.
She sang and danced on gracefully and calm,
The light gauze hanging loose about her form;
To me she seemed a proudly-swaying palm
Grown lovelier for passing through a storm.
Upon her swarthy neck black, shiny curls
Profusely fell; and, tossing coins in praise,
The wine-flushed, bold-eyed boys, and even the girls,
Devoured her with their eager, passionate gaze;
But, looking at her falsely-smiling face
I knew her self was not in that strange place.
I used to live in Nigeria, and dancing was at the center of nearly every party I went to. It would literally take under ten seconds for the dance floor to fill up as soon as the music (typically American or Nigerian R&B) started, and it was an amazing atmosphere of joy to dance in. I'm sure it was a performance just as much as it is in the U.S., but I've never before or since been around people who were as transparent about the way dancing made them feel.
Hi Ta-Nehisi,
I'm a white guy. A few years ago I went through a lot of trouble with my employment situation, and started playing in a rock band for the first time since high school. I picked it back up for the very reasons you cite.
The best thing about music and dancing is that it's something no one can take away from you. That feeling is very liberating when you are faced with a situation beyond your control.
That's why music and art are so important in education. Everyone can't be a millionaire, so it's important to remind people that freedom of expression is a personal choice, and we all have something to give the world, even those without a dime to spare.
TNC, if there was any truth in that theory, the North Koreans would be the dancingest people on the planet. I say it's strictly cultural, plus a lot of people get locked into a single style and never try anything new.
But shit, my clubbing days are gone . . .
Meanwhile, best dancers on the planet - BY A MILE - are the people of West Africa, Nigerians especially. They seem to have a way of busting the wickedest moves with their feet whilst barely seeming to move.
Worst dancers? In descending order, based on a random sample:
3) Germans
2) My Dad
1) Mainland Chinese
This is fantastic. I was once the really scared white nerd, who broke out of his shell by going to college at Rutgers Newark for a year and a half. I was shocked by how happy black people were to even see a white person to TRY and dance like them. It was fantastic, I actually became pretty decent at the harlem shake, and let me tell you, nothing gets a room full of black college students ready to party like a skinny white kid doing a mediocre harlem shake in the middle of the room.
Since then, I've loved dancing. I'm by no stretch of the imagination good at it, but I like to think the happiness I derive from it rubs off on those around me.
Here's my two cents - years ago I read an Indian's (Navajo) advice on hunting: start going hunting a few days before you go hunting. Look for deer behind the garage. Personally, I think the whole thing is just cultural but black people are dancing long before they start dancing, just their bodies aren't moving yet. White people (your average, like me, I mean) are totally not dancing until the first dramatic motion on the floor trying to catch up with the beat. Look at the first move - it' a miracle your average white guy doesn't tear an ACL more often while IMHO the average black person just reacquaints gradually with the old familiar. I learned the same thing many, many years ago when I was a child watching brothers play basketball. An older black guy in the old days who stepped on the court would slowly and gradually, from close range, take a graceful but tentative first shot. The actual release was unimportant and looked almost unschooled. Your average white hoopster throws up a frenetic three - what the hell, it just might go in.
Could this blog post be a disembodied individual dissing the joy of being in a body" A slimy part of the argument here is: "When all you have is your body, sure you are going to learn to dance. But we white folks have more power and opportunity. Most black folks would trade their embodiment for our place in the culture." I hope this argument is inaccurate. Well, this white man would give up his Ph.D. to be able to dance--with or without anyone watching. And is not sex--solo or partnered--above all a playful, creative dance? Enough words. Stop reading. Join me. Time for some joyous movement.
1. As Yglesias has pointed out, Karen O, like the President, is only half white.
2. I had no idea little kids were encouraged to dance at black family gatherings, but I think that explains a lot.
3. I'm white (not WASP, though) but grew up in a racially mixed area of Long Beach, California. Neither I nor most of my white and Asian friends danced at parties and such, but the Filipinos, Hispanics, Islanders, and blacks, for the most part, did. I mean, we would do the goofy white-boy dancing from time to time, but nothing anybody would consider good dancing.
For college I went to a nerd school (Caltech) where just about nobody knew how to dance, but we would have parties with music and people would just dance anyway. So it was comparitively un-self-conscious because it wasn't like there were other people dancing better. I would go to raves, too, and people did more or less the same thing there, though it should be pointed out that the note above about hippies dancing the way they did because they were high certainly applied there, too.
4. So now if I am at a wedding or something with dancing I will get up and dance enough to have a good time, but nobody would ever mistake me for a "good dancer." My wife is ABC, though (American-born Chinese), and refuses to dance at all, saying she doesn't know what to do. Many people have pointed out that at white people's weddings there will be line dances and such, but in my experience, Chinese weddings don't generally have any dancing at all. They're all structured around the banquet, and while there may be singers or music, nobody's expected to dance, and there's no dance floor.
So yeah, Chinese people dance even less than white people do.
Hi there TNC:
Here's my contribution to the whole "white people can't dance vs black people dance" debate and answer to why your friend's theory is off.
Everyone can dance. It is just that our different types of music lend themselves to different types of dancing.
Music with roots in Africa - salsa, reggae, hip-hop, etc - have certain beats and rhythms that allow dancers to visually look more coordinated. and that allow them to sync with their partners.
Some "white-people music" have rhythms that just don't let you groove in the same way (note i said some - don't forgot about line dancing and hand dancing) Try to dance to that YYY song. I did, and all i could do was a two-step, which felt like I was holding back (but works every time), or jump and flail about like karen o., which felt just right (and i can dance!).
It is not us or them - it is the music. No one looks cool or "coordinated" dancing to Welcome to the Jungle! The beat, rhythm, guitar riffs, won't let you. So bottom line - we are comparing apples and oranges here. Different music = different dancing.
I'm an airforce brat. grew up on bases in the sixties. I remember watching my parents and their friends at parties. Mixed parties. just being amazed at what good dancers they were. Specifically the jitterbug. They all had rhythm, white and black. No inter couple dancing but they could have, they were that in sinc. I'm a white male. Grew up on Hullaballo, shindig, american bandstand and soul train. I could always dance. the white and black girls new it. but i was also a jock. It felt too good to dance. hard funk to hip hop. That is all...