I'm surprised that as many as forty-four percent of blacks say that both races have equal opportunity. I think the evidence is unambiguously clear that they do not. African-American children have parents with lower levels of income and education. Their families, even when they have above-average incomes, tend to have less wealth than white families. And even controlling for parental income and educational attainment, black kids do worse in schools than white kids. Then beyond all that, there's clear evidence of discrimination against job applicants with "black" names that tends to suggest a broader pattern of employment discrimination. There are inequities in the criminal justice system both in terms of more punishment being meted out to black offenders, and the police and the courts doing less to protect black victims.
I'm not surprised that most white people prefer to ignore this sort of evidence and believe in the existence of equal opportunities, but it's surprising to me how many African-Americans have adopted an unrealistically optimistic view.
I obviously agree with Matt's assessment of the socioeconomic plight of black folks. But I don't share his surprise. First there is this--If you're black, a quick way to go insane is to think about how much racism has altered your life. But beyond that, I spent a lot of time in my youth as a left-black nationalist arguing with friends and family about race. One thing that became clear is that while a large number of black people recognize the ugly history of racism in this country, many have a hard time seeing themselves as victims of that racism.
This is why I always thought Shelby Steele's "Divided Man" theory of Obama was mostly fodder for people who think that saying fathers should be responsible for their kids, will cause you to lose black votes. If you walked 125th a year ago and asked black people what they wanted from Obama, you would have heard more about the war and the economy, then about racial justice. My point being that Obama's attitude on race is a pretty common one around black people
Personally, I've never seen myself--as an individual--as having less of a shot because I'm black. With a kid, bills, and my own personal problems, I can't really afford to think like that. I suspect this is even more true of a lot of black women. Even the Detroit Lions think they win the Super Bowl. Why else would they step on the field if they didn't?
The Beautiful Struggle: A Father, Two Sons, and an Unlikely Road to Manhood 
Last week, on a couple econ blogs, they talked about partisan biases and if your guy was in office, the partisan will view the world more favorably even if facts say otherwise. One example was a fair amount of democrats said inflation was worse in 1988 than in 1980. I wonder if the same thing is in play here. Would these numbers have been different if McCain won the election?
With the Lions, at least we don't have Jon Kitna here predicting a 10 win season.
Three things strike me about this:
First of all, who wants to be reminded over and over that they are victims of the society they are living in. Secondly, it doesn't take a weatherman to see which way the wind is blowing on the Affirmative Action front, especially when it is so easy to see that the whole nation is taking it on the chops. Finally, while the stats show that as a group, blacks have it tougher, on an individual basis via the media, and certainly Obama's election, one can see something vastly different going on than was true as little as two decades ago.
Recently I picked up a murder mystery by the author Steve Martini, in which the murder victim was a guy who had gotten, in today's environment, the whole of the black populace literally up in arms over the fact that the racist writing in the Constitution which rated blacks as 3/5 human had not been excised because of some legal triviality written into the constitution itself. The novel pictured the nation on the brink of civil war over this; I had a hard time suspending my disbelief; it did not ring true to me in any way.
Interesting... Very interesting. I would never have thought the numbers would be so high. I'll put fourth this argument, with the passage of time as it relates to Jim Crow/Plessy .v Fergusson/Brown v. Topeka overt racism has died out for the most part. Leaving alot of African Americans to interpret the situation as being more of a class based phenomenon and less of a race based phenomenon. While the Black middle class does not reproduce itself on a large scale, I’d argue that this problem is also occurring in the middle class as a whole. Maybe there has been a shift in the paradigm; class can matter as much if not more than race.
p.s.
I don’t actually believe that, being black in this country is still like having one strike against you, and the problem w/ the argument above is that a disproportioning amount of blacks are poor, thus race is a controlling factor in class. BUT it’s food for thought.
I do find it a bit surprising. It seems like you'll often times hear a black person tell a story such as, "my father always taught me that I had to work twice as hard as the next guy to get half as much." Is it possible to acknowledge that you have the same shot at success in this country, while having to work harder to get it? Or don't those ideas, by definition, contradict each other? It certainly is interesting.
I do think DougEMI brings up an interesting point. If Obama would have lost, would we be seeing the same numbers?
Let's try a hypothesis here. Say that ±44% of blacks have an equal chance / have had about equal success as similarly situated white person.
If 56% of blacks are noticeably worse off than whites, on a statistical macro level we would see very substantial racial differences, even with a large number of blacks, if speaking solely from personal experience, are going to say there's equality.
There also may be a bit of a Bill Cosby effect also, among the people who have done decently well, seeing those who have not led more productive and generically successful lives as having undermined their own chances. This may or may not be correct, but could explain people claiming that there exists equal opportunity, even if that doesn't produce equal results.
Overall, I would say Amen to your assessment, TNC.
However, while I agree that it would be morally and psychologically crippling for most African Americans to live their daily lives thinking that they are at a distinct disadvantage in society, being a black woman who is well-read, knows her American history, and is keenly aware of all of the isms that African Americans still battle -- some of which were detailed by Matt -- and one that has worked in Corp. America for close to 20 years and has witnessed first-hand the lack of opportunity and career growth for AA's in this world --I don't know want to talk in generalities, of course, because we all know that a black professional class does exist -- I never forget the limitations of the world in which I strive. Let me be clear: I do not set limitations on myself, but I always have my eyes and mind open to the knowledge that structural and other forms of racial discrimination do exist -- so I will, therefore, be forced to encounter them in some form or fashion as I navigate my life. I would much rather live with my eyes wide-open than to delude myself into thinking that the ethos of that great Amercian myth, "the American Dream" really does apply to us all equally.
I guess it goes without saying that had I been asked the question by CBS, I would not have been counted as one of the 44 percent.
I guess it goes without saying that had I been asked the question by CBS, I would not have been counted as one of the 44 percent.
I'm in my mid-20s and couldn't agree with you more. I think if you got deeper into that question the numbers would be lower than 44%.
Even the Detroit Lions think they win the Super Bowl. Why else would they step on the field if they didn't?
Maybe for the paycheck? Maybe because they think if they play well, they might get traded?
I share Stacy's thoughts - the Detroit Lions may think they can win the Super Bowl but they almost certainly don't think they have an "equal shot" at it.
As a white person growing up in small town Arkansas with a single mom, I never had any problem thinking that both (a) I will make it big some day and (b) there are plenty of people that have advantages over me (more money, prep school, social connections, not living in Arkansas, etc.). It's difficult for me to see how that works any differently for racial minorities or other historically disadvantaged groups.
I think you make this point - that it helps to "buy into the idea that 'you can win'" - but this obscures an important distinction. The poll didn't ask whether African Americans believe "they have a shot at success in this country" - it asked whether they have the SAME shot. In this respect it does seem surprising to this white observer. But maybe it's easier for me to say "people with two parents have it easier than people with single moms, like me" than it is to say "white people have a better shot than black people like me." I'm not sure precisely how one's experience with racism and discrimination makes it different, but it does seem to.
It's sometimes hard to acknowledge even that you have less of a shot. You want to believe that you're ultimately in control.
this is the one thing about matt that irks me from time to time. his surprise that a person won't admit or say that they have it harder than another person baffles me from time to time. it's like he wants all people to know what challenges they have in front of them. but real success, true transcendence over your lot in life requires you to disbelieve those obstacles exist. you can't say to yourself well i can't succeed because i come from the bottom quartile and i went to school in a poor district.. you just have to believe in yourself, and in your ability to succeed. too often, for yglesias, it's all about numbers, groups, and trends and I think he forgets that for every percentage point in that poll there is an actual human being that has to go out there and make something for themselves.
This is getting out of hand. As is the style in America, we overcorrect to the point that the pendullum has swung completely in the opposite direction. Everyone is walking on egg shells when it comes to race that the issue has gotten out of hand. Is there racism still out there? Definitely. Does it apply only to blacks? Certainly not, yet whenever racism comes up in the media, the first thought is white suppressing black. It is time for Americans to realize that there are other races out there that are also feeling oppression, even if they are more silent about it. Asians, Indians, and even white people get no say when it comes to this. There are so many examples it will be difficult to limit them to one posting.
1. BET. Is there a WET, AET,etc? No, because if there was that would be racist.
2. Black scholarships, black universities, etc. And don't even get me started on the Duke lacrosse team. Still waiting for an apology from all those who jumped on this bandwagon without having the full facts.
You get the idea. I don't know how it was in the 60s and 70s, but I'm sure it was tough for any minority and we have come a long way. But, that being said, my generation has not done anything to "keep the black man down." Affirmative action is a great idea on paper, but when you start losing out on the best minds, regardless of the color of their skin, things need to change. Why do you think India and China are closing the gap on the US when it comes to great minds? We would be much smarter to work on creating a better education system for all races instead of promoting affirmative action. I'm sure many of you will disagree and won't be shy to let me know, but I think this politically correctness has to stop.
"1. BET. Is there a WET, AET,etc? No, because if there was that would be racist."
This is where you lost me, personally. I didn't know serious people still resorted to this argument. You think there were be a big stink if there was a Asian-American Entertainment Television? I don't, but I don't think it would economically viable. The only people that would care are people like you, anyways. Would a White Entertainment Television even make sense? What would they show? CBS's lineup on a constant loop?
Banned. Serious people don't resort to this argument. Blatant trolls do.
1. Bullshit. There ARE networks like the ones you describe, ranging from Univision and Telemundo for the Latino population to cable channels that focus on Iranian, Indian subcontinental, Chinese, and Arab content, among others. Sure, if someone tried to start a "White Entertainment Television" there might be a little bit of faux "outrage" expressed, but the general reaction would be one of bemusement and ridicule, rather than anger. Such a network would likely be a commercial disaster, since the "white" audience doesn't necessarily identify themselves that way and it would be pretty damn difficult to figure out what content the channel would feature. Of course, there's always Country Music Television . . .
2. Historically-black colleges and universities have no restrictions on the race of their students, and all are attended by whites and other minorities in addition to African-Americans. There are a lot more "minority" scholarships out there in the world, and vastly MORE non-ethnically-specific scholarships, than there are "black" scholarships. The Duke lacrosse incident has little to do with anything, but feel free to keep bringing it up to try to fan whatever pathetic little flames you think you're generating . . .
And I find it hard to believe that you honestly think that that China and India are gaining on the US "when it comes to great minds" because of the pernicious effects of affirmative action. Anyone who refers to a policy they disagree with as "political correctness" isn't arguing in good faith to begin with.
Thank u Nate...i was going to post something similar, but you summed it up better than i could...cudos...
As a woman, it's my thinking that I have two choices when it comes to sexism:
Belief 1: Sexism is pervasive; it's always happening somewhere.
Belief 2: Sexism is pervasive; it's always happening everywhere.
I choose to go with #1. Because if it's alway happening somewhere, then I know it's infringing on my life in some fashion, and I'll relate to its effect on my life in a systemic, statistical way (e.g., earning 78 cents on the dollar).
But if I go with #2, then I'll end up seeing every interaction with the opposite gender as fraught with a "this dude is a misogynist who's out to get me" subtext -- which does no good to my long-term psychological health, and pre-supposes an animosity on his part which, as times change, is less likely to be true. In short, I choose to give each individual man benefit of the doubt.
Perhaps the data that Matt is questioning doesn't indicate that black folks think racism is "over" but that more black folks are choosing Belief #1 instead of Belief #2. It's not a denial that racism is as systemic as ever, but a personal world-view that chooses to see daily interactions as race-positive unless proven otherwise -- an internal psychological change that's affecting responses to the poll.
Just a theory. YMMV of course.
I could not agree with you (and TNC) more. If you focused on #2 it's be tough to get through your days, and it leads to a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. In fact, I think it works bot ways: to have a chance, you have to believe you have a chance, even if you know that in the aggregate people in your shoes often get shorted.
Shorter Matt= Black people need to continue to view themselves as victims.
So I visited Matt's blog to read the entire article and while there I read some of the comments and, aside from noting that Matt has quite a few bitter posters, one of them mentioned that a job applicant with a "white trash" name would be just as likely as an applicant with a "black" sounding name to be discriminated against. Can someone please enlighten me by letting me know what are some "white trash" names? I am gobsmacked.
I can't read Yglesias' commenter's mind, but I'd guess he's referring to names like Cletus, Jim-Bob, Lurlene, etc. Those names are pretty uncommon these days, though, and I'd also guess that his assumptions are basically incorrect to begin with.
From Freakonomics:
The 20 white trash (low education parents) names as of the 1990's:
Girls: Angel, Heaven, Misty, Destiny, Brenda, Tabatha, Bobbie, Brandy, Destinee, Cindy, Jazmine (not including variations), Shyanne, Britany, Mercedes, Tiffanie, Ashly, Tonya, Crystal, Brandie, Brandi
Boys: Ricky, Joey, Jessie, Jimmy, Billy, Bobby, Johnny, Larry, Edgar, Steve, Tommy, Tony, Michael, Ronnie, Randy, Jerry, Tylor, Terry, Danny, Harley
Oh I see. I also think that the Palin children's names -- Bristol, Piper, Track, Willow, and Trig -- could fall under the "white trash" name category.
Essentially. I can also see "Nevaeh" as on the list for the 2000's - heaven spelled backward.
A name that screams out 'low class' like 'Jazmynne' or 'Ricky Bobby' (sorry, couldn't resist) will probably be as unattractive to an employer as any other ethnic sounding name.
opportunity, in and of itself, is color blind and is not gender biased. it is up to the individual to RECOGNIZE opportunity and be PREPARED (education, training, etc.) to seize it. granted - african-american access to enablers (education, employment, wealth, etc) has been "infringed" and there have been obstacles along the way...
but if polled on "do you have opportunity?" - i don't see a big surprise at 44% saying yes. if anything, the stats matt points out seem to help african-americans better compete when opportunity is recognized and acted upon...a history of being held back will make you play that much harder once you get in the game!
In my life I've come across three groups:
- The ones who KNOW they are entitled to get whatever they want, whether they earn it or not;
- The ones who believe they have a shot at getting what they want if they work really hard; and
- The ones who think they won't get what they want even if they work for it.
The first group is most likely to be born rich, the middle group is likely to be born in the middle, and the last group is most likely to be born poor. And all are part right/part wrong. The rich start with advantages, but they can be downwardly mobile. Same for the poor, in reverse. And the middle can work like the dickens and still get derailed by other people's actions, or by a serious illness that leads to disability.
Still, aside from the obnoxious entitled extreme, it's best to behave as if effort makes a difference. It usually does, and you definitely lose if you don't make the effort. So, while making the effort is not a 100% guarantee of success for anyone, it certainly raises the odds.
It doesn't surprise me if middle class black people have the same attitudes as all other middle class people. You need to have those attitudes (plus some good luck, or at least the absence of certain kinds of bad luck) to get to be middle class to start with. Then you pass the attitudes on to the kids.
This attitude does seem to me to be just very American, regardless of race. We're all raised to believe in the myth of equal opportunity and the American Dream, regardless of class. Middle class and upper middle class Americans - surprise! - have the most faith that "if you work hard you get ahead." They don't recognize their inherent advantages.
This idea (lie) that everyone has equal opportunity in this country is pervasive, and it doesn't surprise me that African Americans believe it almost as much as whites. It would be interesting to see other non-white perspectives on this question as well.
I'm not surprised that most white people prefer to ignore this sort of evidence and believe in the existence of equal opportunities, but it's surprising to me how many African-Americans have adopted an unrealistically optimistic view.
It surprised him, but not me. How else could Black folk have survived in America, if not for them wanting to believe in America?
Which is why questions about Black folks patriotism make me livid.
Black folks are of course patriotic to this country. This makes me go back to Jeremiah Wright. I think you asked Coates, ' why the hell wouldn't Jeremiah Wright be angry?'
I don't that Wright and my mother's generation get any credit at all from this country. They absorbed the ugliness of Jim Crow - IMO, White folks walked away from it, and ignored the repercussions of it- and then raised a generation of kids and told them to believe in America. They fought for a world that they didn't know how it would turn out for them; a world in which they could not instruct their children how to navigate, but they swallowed and absorbed the darkness and ugliness of Jim Crow and decided not to push it onto their children. To give their children that chance. And, all they really asked in return was for us to acknowledge what they had done, and respect them for it. When I think of Mama and Daddy both growing up in the Jim Crow South, yet allowing me the space to navigate the Post-Civil Rights world without their burdens so much - it's humbling.
word.
Irrespective of race, isn't it better to take an optimistic, can-do attitude? You may or may not succeed, but if you take a pessimistic victimized attitude, you most likely will fail.