When people like you opt out of these discussions, the discussions are framed by either:I used to care a lot about the race of the writers talking about black music, culture, history etc. Then I realized how much awful writing there out there about black people, authored by writers of all races. Moreover there's the fact that a lot of the work I adore about African-American culture is, in fact, written by white writers1. (mostly white) rock/pop critics who don't know or care much about rap beyond what appeals to (mostly white) rock/pop critics.
or
2.) rap revisionists, KRS-type 4 elements zealots, hip hop "activists," simpletons who think in binaries ("conscious vs gangsta...underground vs. corporate...hip hop vs. rap"), and out of touch hip hop academics, who care so much about hip hop that they have an unhealthy and unrealistic view of its history and importance.
The absence of voices such as yours is why mainstream rap criticism is so terrible these days. Even worse than the music.
This isn't because black writers lack any sort of ability or insight. It's because writing is a luxury occupation which requires time and resources--something black people are lacking in at the moment. We're still in the "Go to school, study something that can get you a job" phase. A brief perusal of the wealth stats in black community, as compared to white community, will demonstrate why this is the case.
One way to add to the pile of ill-informed opinion out there is to presume to know more than you do. When you do that on the basis of skin-color ("I'm the black guy, I have to have an opinion on all things colored") you do a disservice to the noble aims of diversity. You really shouldn't be making big pronouncements about the current state of hip-hop if (like me) you don't know what the Asher Roth or the latest Kanye West sound like. You especially should not be making pronouncements if you don't really care what either sounds like. It may be genius, or it may be whack--I knew what Hammer sounded like, I knew what Vanilla Ice sounded like. And I knew why they sucked. One of the things I absolutely hate about Wynton Marsalis and Stanley Crouch is how they pair a complete ignorance of hip-hop, with an irrepressible need to analyze it. And then people, themselves ignorant of hip-hop, solicit their opinions. It's like watching a bioligist opine on the vaugeries of constitutional law--then seeing the court-room crowd around and mutter, "Hmm, this guy really knows his shit."
Assuming I'm lucky enough to continue my career as a writer, what I just described is a nightmare scenario. Contrarian is a four-letter word around these parts. I fear blogging (and opining in general) because I fear coming to love the megaphone too much. I fear simply to make my assembled commenters applaud, and laud me as "provocative." Or worse--so that I can be the life of some sitff, bougie-ass dinner party. Nuts to that.
I keep Kenyatta around to (among other things) prevent me from inserting my head into my hind-parts, to remind me that the golden rule of writing is to write about you know, and shut the fuck up about what you don't. Every time I've violated that I've ended up walking back some dumb shit I spewed.
As sad as it is to admit this, I don't listen to much rap. I'm old enough to remember when fools who couldn't tell Chuck D from Chuck Yeager would make these loud denouncements the music. I swore I would never do that. It seems I am now accomplished enough to make denouncements myself. But I'm not going there, kid. I know the ledge.
The Beautiful Struggle: A Father, Two Sons, and an Unlikely Road to Manhood 
It seems that "know the enemy" "know the terrain" and "know yourself" apply to more than just warfare. One of the reasons I keep coming back here is that you seem to be one of the few people who has really adopted the (gnothi seauton) know yourself ethic. Props.
My sentiments exactly. Outside of Doom and maybe Cadence Weapon, I really haven't listened to much hip hop lately. This coming from a person who before the age of 19 (circa 1998) listened to nothing but. Part of it is been-there-done-that-ism, part of it is the lack of refreshing voices in hip hop, part of it is that there will never be any hip hop to top Wu-Tang 1993-1997, but mostly it's a want and need for something that will broaden the music soundscape.
It's also worth adding: neither Gauthum, nor Hua are White. Nor are either Alyssa or Gauthum pop music critics in any conventional sense of the term, if I'm not mistaken.
So while I understand the point the commenter was trying to make, it's not as if the Atlantic roundtable was an apt example of the phenom he/she was talking about.
I would however disagree with the assertion that you (TNC) would have little to have contributed to that discussion. I thought Hua did an admirable job of including some informed rationality into that debate but you almost certainly would been a worthy voice too.
Yeah, but Hua seemed pretty on top of the latest. I'm telling you man, I'm just not up at the moment. Maybe that will change.
If more people writing about hip-hop knew as much about the last 30 years of it as they did about the last 30 months of it, I think there'd be some better writing. Just saying.
I had hoped you'd weigh in because I think you have a legitimate pov, not because of race but because of interest and immersion. I don't always agree with your writing on the subject but to say your opinion is less worthy because you haven't studied 808s & Heartbreak or what have you... I don't know it just seems weak, like a cop out.
Anyways, not trying to do too much, just my .02.
I appreciate the compliments, but I'd rather not be the next contestant on that summer jam screen. Call that copping out if you want.
Well I mean you have to do you. You don't owe me or anyone else a thing. Hip-hop is always forward-looking, always about the youth. Maybe that's its life force, because lord knows I don't want it to go the way of jazz. But still, not being familiar with the ten hottest blog rappers is a far cry from Marsalis, who's willfully ignorant of the entire culture. Don't shortchange yourself on that.
To be fair, Wynton basically hates Funk, too, and he's from that era. Crouch talks much yang about Fusion as well. So their scorn extends beyond just Hip-Hop. (As far as American music goes, their mantra seems to be - If It Ain't Swingin', It Ain't Good.)
But your point about them condemning something they have no critical knowledge of is definitely taken.
Shalom Ta-Nehisi,
I understand what you mean when you say that writing is a luxury occupation, yet when I look backward to the writing that came from average people before the advent of movies, telephone calls, radio and television -- communications that do not require us to read -- I question characterizing writing as a luxury.
Read letters and diaries from the common folk during the 19th and early 20th centuries. These people worked longer and physically harder than we, but humble us by the beauty of their words.
By calling writing a luxury we provide a poor rationale for our own lethargy.
As a simple example of the change, consider the benefit or writing your grandmother a thank you letter for that $5 in the birthday card versus the phone call, or horrors, the text message.
B'shalom,
Jeff
Have Coffee Will Write
I'm going to dispute this a bit. Most letters and diaries from that period are as boring as 90% of the Myspace pages and LiveJournals out there today. The ones we read are the ones that are interesting, but they're the exception, not the rule. I'm getting a taste of that right now, because I'm transcribing a diary from my great*3 grandmother from 1895, and what's interesting isn't the writing. The interesting stuff is the ubiquity of death, the importance of letters as communication, the daily aches and pains that don't have any real treatment--those are the things that make me glad to be living in the early 21st century rather than the late 19th and early 20th. But the writing is often tedious--no one's going to be knocking down my door to publish this stuff--and that's about par for the course when it comes to that sort of writing.
Shalom Brian,
Point taken.
Science Fiction writer Theodore Sturgeon once remarked that "ninety percent of everything is crud."
We get better at what we do.
B'shalom,
Jeff
I applaud your restraint. It is really unfair for writers (or people) to offer criticism of music they don't keep up with.
Stanley Crouch, to me, is just a guy who wastes considerable talent and intellect being a blowhard. Wynton, though, just baffles me to no end. It's hard to see how being so involved in critical debates and drawing lines serves any purpose as an artist. It's as if he thinks there are a limited number of sounds in the world, so we shouldn't waste any that are not Duke Ellington or himself.
I can sort of understand the parameters the place on the word "jazz," though I don't understand what is accomplished by limiting it. But just hating on hip-hop and other forms of popular music blows my mind.
TNC, I still don't understand why you're not listening to hip hop at all these days. It doesn't sound as if you think it all stinks. You just don't have an opinion because you don't listen. I'm flabbergasted as to why. You quote rap lyrics all the time, so the culture is still with you. What's the deal?
It's because he's not interested right now. Maybe the radio stations around him suck. Maybe his friends aren't as into it so he doesn't hear as many fresh sounds. Why is it your business?
Sorry if that sounded hostile, it's hot. But I don't understand why feel the need to ask/demand bloggers write about certain topics, listen to certain things, etc. It's a big Internet. You can find someone listening to and writing about the stuff you care about.
#1 Chill out.
#2 I love how you ask me why it's my biz but you took it upon yourself to answer for him.
#3 It's question. I'm not allowed to ask a blogger a question anymore.
Geez.
It was just question. Considering TNC quotes rap and puts up old videos all the time it seems strange that he wouldn't even be listening to any of the current stuff. I didn't ask him to write about anything. You went waay to serious with this. Especially since it's not your place to be shutting me down for asking.
Calm down, all. It is hot, like Persia said...
In all honesty, I'm just not that captivated by what I've heard. And I haven't felt the need to hunt for more. When I was younger I NEEDED to hear the latest. I fiended for it. I was compelled, almost physically, to listen. I just don't feel that way anymore.
Part of my hesitancy comes from not being clear on how much the music is changed vs. how much I've changed. It's not for my generation. I've aged out of it. Hip-Hop feeds of that unique under-25, male energy. I don't know if I'm just less sexually frustrated or just tired. Whatever it is, it doesn't grab me like it used to.
Might be the music. Might be me. I can only speak on what I feel.
I'm sure it's a little of both. The reason why I was curious is because we're similar in the loosest sense of the word. I'm a 30yo black man from the east coast (brooklyn) who grew up listening to all the same stuff you did. I now also listen to a lot of so-called white music. Much of it the same stuff you mention on this blog. Yet I still still listen to lots of current hip hop. I think there is a lot of good stuff out there. Now I don't listen to or follow hip hop any where near what I used to but I think most of that is because the radio is horrible. Especially now that I'm in St Louis (lots of southern crap and even though I like him, way to much lil wayne). Here's one rec for you maybe you've maybe heard this in passing somewhere; Kid Cudi's Day N Nite: http://bit.ly/rRRiS
Ahh, there's gotta be a way for 30-somethings to age in hip-hop. The alternative is just too depressing.
Springsteen and the Stones are still touring and seem to have held up well. For the most part. Audiences still seem to enjoy it at least.
Hip-hop... I dunno. Grandmaster Flash was on the D. L. Hughley show a few months ago, and it was just sad. Can you picture them playing to a club full of people their age? Or Public Enemy? So many of their songs are so much about the time they were written/released, I'm not sure it translates.
I'm 30 and still love it and still think it's for me. I think it always will be. I think my tastes of what particular kinds of hip hop will change and evolve (or devolve, who knows?) but I believe I will always find stuff to bump. I've never been too hard on any form of pop culture. I just try to sit back and enjoy the best aspects the best I can. I think Kanye is dope, I think American Gangsta is a highly underrated album. The Clipse don't get their props. Kid Cudi is doing his thing. I love the Cool Kids. Loved Dizzee Rascal's last album. Love Lupe Fiasco. I'm waiting on Mos Def's new joint. The Roots are the Roots and they will be back from behind that hack soon enough. I dunno I feel like I could almost go on and on but that's just me. I'm still feeling it. Not like I once did but it's still there for me overall. Can't hate on anyone who doesn't feel the same though. Especially TNC cause I'm feeling a lot of the other stuff he's into now too like TVOTR, Okkervil River and I've loved the YYY's since they came out.
"Ahh, there's gotta be a way for 30-somethings to age in hip-hop. The alternative is just too depressing."
is that what De La Soul is for? :)
*punches self in face*
*syncs Nikes to new De La Soul mixtape*
*starts jogging*
I'm with you in a lot of ways on this post TNC. When I was in my twenties music was IT. It fed my life, it pushed me along. These days... meh. I like to think it's the same difference exhibited by comparing the brand new recruit to the saavy veteran: "Calm down son, we have a long way to go yet." That's not what you want to hear when you're young, dumb, and full of cum, but that's the attitude I have now that I'm in my thirties with kids and a mortgage. Things change, but even more than that WE CHANGE. At least the lucky amongst us do. We've all seen the 40+ guy at the club trying to act young and hip... DON'T BE THAT GUY.
One area that I think you've overstretched a bit is in commenting on stuff you're not an expert in. I searched for a favorite Thoreau quote of mine but was unable to track it down (the Google Fu is weak in this one). Goes a little something like this: "Don't be afraid to say what you really mean today even if you come back and say completely the opposite thing tomorrow." Of course when Thoreau wrote it it was much cooler, but the point he was making was that to hold yourself back, to keep yourself constrained is a dangerous habit to get into.
Don't be afraid to eat some crow once in awhile, it's all part of a balanced diet. Be more afraid of being the guy who stands up after the parade has passed by and says; "I was JUST thinking that same thing!" Be fearless TNC, stick your neck out a little more even if you are forced to come back and explain how you fucked it all up. It's what we all come here for, there are already enough cautious writers out there. Champions are made by getting up off the canvas and getting back in the fight.
BE THAT GUY.
The quote I think is from Emerson's essay on
Self Reliance
Thank you Sorn for finding that Emerson quote for my weak ass. I read that years ago in high school and it absolutely rocked me to my core. I've never forgotten it but I have obviously forgotten where I found it originally.
"Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day."
Indeed.
That's always been one of my faves, but Emerson was talking about when you feel moved to speak. One thing I need to make clear here, in regards to this topic, i'm not that moved. I think that's the thing. Not only am I not moved, I'm not even particularly curious.
I've had to do some investigating for a long-form piece I'm pulling together. But even that has more to do with the past than the present.
not a problem. I've been a fan of Emerson since I read him in high-school too. The soul of one transcendentalist philosopher often merges into another.......:)
The first part of it is something I have taken to heart for a long time and in a way it sort of sums up a certain way of thinking:
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."
We should never let dogma over-ride our curiosity.
That quote always makes me think of this movie: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119778/
There's a wide world of music out there. But one thing I've found, if you love music, when one style dead ends for you, another pops up, and no one loves it all. Hip hop has entered the age of golden oldies for some? Not a surprise really. Just don't expect your kids to love it the way you do.
The problem with writing about about black music, culture, history etc. is simple: Sturgeon's Law. In other words, 90% of it is crap, just like 90% of all writing is crap. It doesn't really matter much whether the writer is white or black. 90% of the writing about black music by black authors is crap. 90% of the writing about black music by white (or yellow or green or purple) writers is crap. There is probably more decent writing about black music by white authors simply because there are probably more white authors writing about black music, due to there being more white authors in this country.
"There is probably more decent writing about black music by white authors simply because there are probably more white authors writing about black music, due to there being more white authors in this country."
That presumes all other things being equal, which, of course, they are not.
Maybe its the research geek in me but lately I've been going back and finding original material from which my favorite hip hop takes its samples from. Gives much of it a 3rd/4th dimension.
It's almost methodical, education is false assimulation
Building prisons is more economical, so your niggas in gang modules
Be giving more head than hair folicles
And niggas like myself know the ledge and still jump like Geronimo
Huh supreme mathematics and bad habits
Cause chasing cabbage keeps a nigga savage
Blame it on the disease, we all got the symptoms
Most of us niggas wanna be pimps but Uncle Sam really pimpin' them
--Ras Kass
When I wrote "people like you," I didn't mean black people; I meant heads (or at least people who care/respect the genre enough to learn about its history, rather than dwell on the surface and make authoritative declarations about the music as a whole). White folks who have an understanding of and respect for hip hop are also "people like you." I certainly don't think that black people have some inherent insight--I was implying that a number of the critics in group 2 are black.
My problem with the critics in group 1 isn't that they're white; it's that they typically hold rock/pop as the default and only have a cursory knowledge of hip hop, thus their assessment of hip hop is on rock/pop terms. It seems harmless, but it's informed by a kind of white critical privilege that allows the critics to feel comfortable making authoritative judgments on a predominantly black genre without bothering to learn about its aesthetic conventions, canon(s), and history. To me, the blackness of the genre is a big reason why this is allowed to fly.
The "rock/pop" part is the key; I used the parenthetical "(mostly white)" as shorthand. A bit sloppy on my part.
We use to aspire to the likes of great talent like:
William Warfield Martina Arroyo
Shirley Verrett Robert McFerrin
Leontyne Price Jessye Norman
Kathleen Battle Grace Bumbry
Indra Thomas Leon Mitchell
Roland Roland Denyce Graves
Simon Estes Paul Robeson
Billy Eckstine Lew Rawls
Al Green Andrea Dawson
Abbey Lincoln Etta James
Betty Carter Dionne Warrick
Ella Fitzgerald Shirley Scott
Nat King Cole Sarah Vaughan
Now so many of use choose the lowest form of music, rap, to obsess over.
What is wrong with you people? Can't you want better for your children and grandchildren?
Rap is not music. It is plain and simple, just garbage, spouted by barely articulate and unattractive thugs and women of low self esteem.
Period. End of story.
Sammy,
My brain won't let this music into my head. It's stuck on Springsteen and Joan Baez. But I didn't need TNC to tell me that's my loss: my children make the case steadily, and they're wise people. Sounds like you're stuck like me, but it doesn't make us right. It just makes us old.
There needs to be some Godwin's Law equivalent to the complaint that "hip hop is the lowest form of music."
Maybe we can call it Crouch's Law.
Let me put two quotes out there:
1st Sammy:
"Rap is not music. It is plain and simple, just garbage, spouted by barely articulate and unattractive thugs and women of low self esteem."
2md TNC:
"One way to add to the pile of ill-informed opinion out there is to presume to know more than you do."
Now that's period. End of story.
On a slightly related note, it's always nice to hear someone drone on about inarticulate thugs, and then lecture us about "Lew" Rawls. Snobbery is ignorance with a veneer of class. But it's still ignorance.
Or Dionne WARRICK for that matter.
Robert Johnson. Bessie Smith. Muddy Waters. Big Mama Thornton. Howling Wolf. James Brown. Albert Ayler. Ornette Coleman. Sun Ra. Wilson Pickett for God's sakes. People were saying the same thing about those guys. Has there ever been a more beloved voice than the gravel bucket of Louis Armstong? Music is not just harmony. Like rock and roll, hip hop may not be all that its adherents crack it up to be, but that doesn't mean one should confuse personal taste with the truth. On the other hand young ones, remember that no less than the great Charlie Parker thought that rhythm and blues was nothing more than a bunch of commercial cliches.
Well, since Sammy has spoken, I guess the matter is resolved.
You realize that the guardians of black respectability said the exact same thing about blues, jazz, rock and roll, and r and b as those genres began to captivate the youth, right?
ANYONE discussing hip-hop from the perch of the Atlantic feels kinda funny, regardless of race. TNC admits to not being up on new stuff, so that immediately takes him out of the convo. And the other writers might not have the cultural affiliation (except HH), so that undermines them to some...so the whole thing just seemed silly.
Plus, did anyone mention Jeezy's "My President Is Black"? Equating the election of Barack Obama to how fly your car accessory is...well, that just says it all about hip-hop in 2008/9. Ignorant and genius all at once.
They're all long-time hip-hop fans. What other "cultural affiliation" do they need?
You should read the convo.
This is the difference between hip-hop on the page vs. as part of a sonic experience. On paper, Jeezy's chorus does seem, indeed, kind of backwards and crass. But in listening to it, what resonates is that opening line: "MY PRESIDENT IS BLACK."
Try it: just speak the line in Jeezy's cadence (do it with rap hands for added effect). It's an observation, a statement, a proclamation, a mantra, all rolled into one. The song's tension is built in the first three words and when you reach "Black," it all gets released. Jeezy could have followed that with "my Lambo is blue" or "education is the tool" or "my chimney has a flue" and it wouldn't dent the power of the first line.
"Rhyming is a part of my life. I'm gonna die with rhyming kids and a rhyming wife. I don't let nobody judge me who can't do what I do, so if you don't like it, then fuck you."
Like other commenters said, the quotes and videos indicate that hip-hop is still a big enough part of TNC's life that I think he'll always have a relevant voice, regardless of what's new. I really appreciate the way he writes about how a hip-hop verse is relevant or meaningful to his life. I don't think it matters if that verse is fifteen years old or from a newer artist.
On the other hand, I'm more than happy letting TNC choose what he writes about. And I understand the perils of canonization and not wanting to do that to hip-hop. I don't think we should let Marsalis and Crouch try to do that to jazz either, but I think Butterfly said all that best on Reachin' almost two decades ago.
This is a really interesting post. Thinking about hip hop "scholars" and who (or, which race) has the legitimacy to talk about black culture and/or hip hop.
I read this review of a hip hop/academic book, written by a white guy, that brought up some interesting points that complement what you said. Basically, he says that this hip hop academic didn't discuss whiteness and white hip hop heads correctly. It's worth a read, since it relates in the authenticity, legitimacy kind of debate.
http://socialsciencelite.blogspot.com/2009/05/book-review-hip-hop-wars.html
He's written about Asher Roth and he seems to know hip hop pretty well.
I love how writing on Asher Roth seems to be equated with "knowing hip-hop pretty well." [Insert your "hip hop is dead" joke].
You listen to Kenny G and Wynton Marsalis
With your de-caf latté and your withered phallus
Your girl is a gimp and a bitch and a pain
My woman's a goddess, she digs Miles and Trane
- Stale Urine