Here's a question: in which creative fields, or even sub-genres, do practitioners tend to improve with age, and in which do they tend to ... do otherwise?

Also, you look at a guy like Eastwood, and his artistic sensibilities didn't 'survive intact': they only emerged (in any publicly recognizable way) extremely late. First he did movies with chimps.

I dunno. Just wondering in which fields people tend to do their best work young (is physics the archetypal answer?) and in which they tend to grow more proficient as they age.

I think it's interesting that you compare Steve Martin and Michael Jackson, as I believe both of them (Eddie Murphy, too, really), in their own way, contributed so much to our self-awareness as a human race over the strange and weird decade we know as the 80's. Of course, you probably saw the same HuffPo link I did earlier today, but still, the point remains.

Getting better with age: painting. Sculpture. Choreography. Pottery-making. Weaving. The writing of history and psychology. Any activity which involves a great deal of both technique and detailed knowledge.

The more social factors or interactions there are in a creative endeavor, the more likely the artist is to *not* get better with age. Movie directors, actors, musicians, composers *should* improve with age, because what they do is complex and has endless potential for technical improvement, but there's something about too much social feedback that often makes them plateau at something safe. Or maybe the natural crankiness of age makes the social factors a drag on the creative process, I don't know.

If there's no or negative feedback between quality and effort, people won't get better at what they do. To take Eddie Murphy as an example, he is getting no signal from the market that a better movie will do better financially (on the contrary), and unless he has friends with great insight and force of character, no-one will tell him to do better in spite of it.

The trouble with good actors or directors making bad movies to pay the bills is that it gets them in the habit of making bad movies. The time and effort that goes into doing bad work actively reduces their chances of doing good work in the future, because it's a *habit*.

For the longest time, the Black community basically made fun of Michael Jackson, his music, his appearance (he wants to be white!!) and all that.
My understanding is/was, the Black (African American) community didn't really want to be associated with him anymore. At least not as a Black guy.

What disturbes me, is that now that he's dead, HE'S ONE OF US!!!!
Mind you, I'm white.

I don't have much analitical insight. I call it as I see it.

I see the Black/African American community distance themselves from Michael Jackson in the past few years. I've seen many many stand-up comics make fun of him. Disowning him, in effect.

Yet now, that he's died (I hope he finally found his peace!!), now that he's died though, I see the Black/African American community once again claim him as one of theirs.
I sense some real real effed-up shit here.

All of a sudden now, he's Black/African American (which he's been all along!!!) and all of a sudden the Black/African American community claims him as being one of theirs.
He was all along, yet 'they' put as much distance between him as 'they'could.

All in all, it's just so sad. He should have had better support, both from the white as well as the black community. He offered so so much to both.

I'll miss his enourmous contribution to our society!!

Please, rest in peace Michael.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjtI2WZTZ9k

1. I will say that as you get older you definitely lose your fastball. One reason is that life, with its mortgages and kids and people you know starting to die, doesn't seem as hilarious as it used to. But another reason is that the comedy devices that were so fresh and powerful when you first discovered them now reveal themselves as just a bag of tricks. Like Doc Gooden with the Yankees, you can still throw a no-hitter on a given night, but you'll never be the Doc of 1985.

2. When I was a kid I used to see Bob Hope on TV and think, "Why is everyone treating him like he's a comedy genius? He's not funny. I've never seen him be funny. What's the big deal?" But when I was older I saw some of his movies and realized that Woody Allen (and there's another example of someone who's lost his fastball) stole his whole lecherous-coward persona from Hope. Hope was great. Steve Martin reminds me of that.

As a wonderful ex-GF of mine was fond of saying: 'And what?' Don't apologize or qualify your opinion based on your ethnicity.

All in all, it's just so sad. He should have had better support, both from the white as well as the black community. He offered so so much to both.

I'll miss his enourmous contribution to our society!!

Yes! People have been comparing him to Elvis, and I know he was fond of comparing himself to the big-collared one, but I look at him more like a John Lennon or Bob Dylan than a Elvis. Elvis, with a very few exceptions, very enthusiastically played the establishment game. Mike was having none of it.

When someone's alive, people react to what they're doing now -- and Jackson seemed to be distancing himself from the black community and the roots the Jackson 5 had in Motown.

But looking at his life and work as a whole, it would be hard not to see him as part of the black community.

But then the question becomes, do you have anything else? I remember seeing Red Skelton doing a stand-up bit during the Oscars (in 86? I'm not sure) and his timing was *impeccable*.

Here's a nice compilation of his physical work that I came across on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNWmPGyzhAM

Also - he did some pretty serious dance training for 'Pennies From Heaven' in 1981. There was a television special at that time that had a bit where he tap-danced with Gregory Hines, and did a respectable job keeping up (after admitting that he'd only been at it for a year or so).

I like your explanation, too: too much social interaction impairs potential.

Makes me wonder if some artists are protected by either being contrary of introverted. That certainly agrees with the cliche of the genius, at least.

As to the point on the black community making fun of him, I mean dude, have you SEEN a late-night talk-show? It's not like white people on the whole (generality, but then you're speaking in them) embraced MJ, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if they gave him more shit per person than black people.

Lennox, "Black or White" has that "I'm not gonna spend my life being a color" line, and I think that's how he saw things. He was who he was but he didn't want people to box him accordingly. (Of course the skin issues complicate that but...I'm not even going there right now.)

The fundamental (and common) mistake that Dutch makes is the idea that if one black person says or does something then it's automatically representative of the 'Black community'. I personally know plenty of black folks that never rejected Michael, and I'm sure a little research would turn up plenty of media figures that never rejected him. People have got to stop looking at things in generalizations and start learning to see individuals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alD_tukE77Q&feature=related

Okay. The humor isn't subtle. But the moves are!

In any case, classic stuff like this is why I'm only 26 and I have a soft spot for Carson.

"follow the money"

I have to concur, Alyssa. This is kind of a no brainer. And frankly, given the size of the paychecks offered these guys, there are very few pure souls on this planet who would persist in turning down all of those zeros.

You might ask why they need so much more when they've already got a lot, but in Martin's case it's probably because he's a first tier art collector. The guy owns Picasso, Hopper, DeKooning, Seurat, etc. etc. So he's feeding a harmless Jones. Beats making bad movies because you're spending it all on alimony or cocaine.

(Also - Clint Eastwood, much as I love the guy's work, did some pretty bad movies back in the eighties, long after he was fully in control of his career choices - producing, directing, etc.)