Following through the link, you don't find an answer to that, but you find something close--79 percent of Jews "strongly favor" or "favor" marriage to other Jews. 72 percent "strongly favor" or "favor" marriage to generic whites. The number for generic blacks? 22 percent.I strongly suspect that the majority of the 38% of Jews who oppose their relatives marrying blacks do so not because of antipathy toward black people, but because most blacks aren't Jewish. It's not blacks, it's all gentiles.
I would be very interested in seeing the percentage that oppose or strongly oppose marriage to non-Jews.
Now, a few caveats. The GSS has a good rep, but frankly, I'm a little suspicious because the stats for Jews who "oppose" or "strongly oppose" marriage to generic whites is zero. That sets of the alarm. Moreover, I think it's wise to consider opinion studies in some context and not quote them as definite, concrete markers of reality.
That said, that Jewish disapproval of interracial marriage with blacks would be higher than the reverse, doesn't really surprise. Religion is likely a factor--but so is being white. I don't think Jews or anyone else is immune to history.
What would really be interesting, and much fairer, would be to compare the Jewish numbers, not with blacks, but with other whites. I think that would tell us a lot more. And then, as it is with these sorts of things, not much at all.
The Beautiful Struggle: A Father, Two Sons, and an Unlikely Road to Manhood 
whoa what is with the caps and the bolding, i feel like you are yelling!
Ugh. Fixing.
I agree that it would be interesting to compare it with other whites.
I wonder if there is any preference for/against by whites when it concerns marriage to jews versus blacks.
This is interesting to think about.
Being a white male from the south, I think I would be much more likely to marry a black woman than a jewish woman just based on familiarity.
I don't think the kids in my Kentucky high school really even knew a jewish person before we all went off to college.
This whole notion of a rivalry between Jews and African Americans seems odd in Southern California (home of America's second largest Jewish community)where the two communities get along famously. Liberal Westside Jews were the backbone of the Bradley Coalition.
I wonder if this rivalry isn't mainly a New York City phenomenon, where an ugly teacher's strike exasperated relations between the groups which, ironically, have so much to offer one another.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/eyesontheprize/profiles/20_mccoy.html
i don't think it's a rivalry, it's a cultural preference for an in-group with an added dash of the racism that is common in the U.S.
I'd be interested in seeing all those numbers plus the breakdown by age. It may not achieve much, but it'd be interesting as hell to think about for a while.
Clearly, something is wrong with a survey that lists unfavorable for generic white at 0%. Partly because I can't imagine there being 0% for anything, but also just in your own comments section we have a number of people who have face the issue of families not wanting marriage to non-jews.
On a side note, the cover story for the latest issue of New York Magazine is about Jewish humor. In it there's a quote from Jon Stewart that goes something along the lines of "Blacks and Jews have the same history: 2,000 years of bullshit. Black people people invented the blues. Jews like to complain, we just never thought of setting it to music." That's not exact, but the best I can remember. I immediately thought of this blog. Then I thought, "man, black and jewish offspring are destined for success. You don't have that long a history of suffering and not make something of it." haha.
Age stats could be very interesting. My students, most 18 to 22, have very different views, and experiences, about race than did my counterparts (or, for that matter, me) going to school 35 years ago. I am often surprised by the honest good humor, between students, when talking about race, ethnicity, and religion. They talk in a way, just human being to human being, that just was not available to us. Too many walls.
There are still bigots among my students. But as a cohort I'd be very suspect about the poll if their numbers were not quite different than their parents.
I found/organized the data and am the owner of that blog. Here are my thoughts and explanations:
I totally agree with Ta-Nehisi's point about opinion studies and how they should be viewed. The data I found is not 100% accurate, and I said as much in my blog entry, but neither should it be dismissed. The issue is context.
There's no way to know what Jews were thinking when asked about marrying whites. For all we know, they were thinking about Jews, or Sephardic Jews or even more specifically Morrocan Jews who are very traditional. The GSS doesn't have that data. The GSS also doesn't ask why Jews object to intermarriage with one ethnicity/race or the other.
The best the GSS has is this: Does the respondent accept a person from a different religion or view from the respondent's marrying relative? 79% of Jews would definitely or probably accept. The big problem? There are only 19 Jews in that sample. That's the problem with many of these questions, and I excluded the answers to those questions for that reason.
As with any survey, you have to understand the context and the limitations of the data without completely dismissing the information gathered.
Ta-Nehisi:
The only white ethnic group the GSS asks about with regards to marriage is Jews. The other choices are regional, which is where I got the Northern/Southern data. What I can do is find other favorability questions which do include other white ethnic groups and compare them to the black and Jewish answers to the same questions. That's not complete context, but it's something.
Many commenters wanted to know the numbers for other groups. If I have time, I'll try to post them and let you guys know. If anyone wants to look at the GSS for themselves, it's here.
Thanks, that really helps. And the point about whites clarifies some things, and fleshes out an assumption I'd made.
I knew it. Judaism is a race and being black a religion. Now I want to know how many Chinese dig Catholics. I know know... the infamous ethnoreligious innuendo.
Please allow me to distract. I think the argument that blacks and jews share something got me somehow ignited. It is intetressting how discrimination has occurred in history - the developments where often regressive. Please allow me to simplify:
First - birth chance. Egypt. If you are not born into royalty... everybody was a slave except for the king. This ironically came back despite Alexanders efforts. You cannot force democracy and equality. It has to come from the roots.
Second - education. Greece. Those that cannot read or write cannot understand Greek and therefore think like barbarians. They are victims of the gods and not human nature. Ergo they are not in control of their own destiny and slaves below the mental elite.
Third - (ethno? I hope not)religion. The Jewish state. Those who are not jewish - all other 11 states of the 12... will and are not be chosen by God. Ergo they are below.
Fourth - race, color and appearance. Europe and America. For the first time in history it did not matter what your religion, education or family tree was. All people whose skin color is darker are below the "fair" elite.
Fifth - ideology. Soviet Union. Stalin alone killed and tortured 20 million of his own kind. If you believed in individual over group rights...
Sixth - religion, ideology and race combined. Germany. Jews (religion?), Slavs (race) and those who valued individual over group rights were...
Now, to me, all arguments are "bad". I can understand the first two to three in the historic context. If I were a slave - I wished to have lived in Greece. There I was protected by the law and could have been freed by either my owner or by mastering to read and write.
My second choice would have been to live in Germany or the Soviet Union. I would have claimed to be a Christian fascists who loves the Nazis and hates the jewish scum. My only problem is that I am circumstaiced. Hmm. In the USSR I would have claimed to be an atheist communist who hates all religious, royal capitalists.
Number four however really does stick out. It did not matter how talented you were - whether you believed in God or not. Whether you were left or right. Whether you lied or said the truth. No. In case you were dark - bad luck. How insane?
How very special. I know that I am stating the obvious in this post. I know that it would be more fitting to the redemption and blacks vs Hispanics discussion of the far right of previous TNC posts.. but it somehow fits here too?
Questions: if i truly believed in Judaism as a black guy but my mother was not.. you know. What happens to me by the book?
I put up more surveys on the blog. This time the respondents were asked to what degree different ethnic groups have contributed positively to the country. This question allowed blacks and Jews to rate other white ethnic groups. Unfortunately, it's the only question allowing them to do so. If I find more relevant data, I'll post it.
Hugo Pottisch:
This is how many Chinese dig Catholics.
That said, that Jewish disapproval of interracial marriage with blacks would be higher than the reverse, doesn't really surprise. Religion is likely a factor--but so is being white. I don't think Jews or anyone else is immune to history.
I know firsthand there is still antiblack prejudice among some Jews. There is even a version of brown paper bag.
What I object to is the attempt to conflate this prejudice with the traditional Jewish opposition to intermarriage between Jews and Gentiles. Non-Jews who view the latter as some kind of rationalization for opposing interracial marriages are ignorant about the nature of this Jewish taboo. It is partly a prohibition in traditional Judaism itself, partly a measure against demographic suicide. For more on the issue, go here:
http://judaism.about.com/od/interfaithfamilies/a/intermarr_jew.htm
Thanks for the link. Here is what the book states:
Now I know that Andrew will tell me that religion is "evolving" and "adopting" and "moving towards tolerance" and "benevolent" and "also" brings a lot of good. But I say - social and ethical progress happens despite religion - not because of it. And then and only then does religion adopt for the better. What does that tell us? (By the way, by "religion" I mean the "supernatural" and nothing else.)
It is funny that the Hebrew Israelites were referred to as Black Israelites? In the end - they were not "really" black but more like the Ethiopian brown where they originated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_Israel#Hebrew_Israelites
"It is funny that the Hebrew Israelites were referred to as Black Israelites? In the end - they were not "really" black but more like the Ethiopian brown where they originated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_Israel#Hebrew_Israelites"
I'm not trying to be facetious, but are you saying that Ethiopians aren't black?
It's irony from my side but the official claim is that Ethiopians were not "that" dark back then. Back then they were more like Obama, you know, not really "black".
PS: I am absolutely pro intermarriage in all respects. I would not almost enforce it like Alexander but it should be voluntary?
I don't know where this idea of the Israelites being like Ethiopians comes from. When Miriam criticizes Moses for his Ethiopian wife, I think that is a pretty solid indication the Israelites were different from Ethiopians.
In this case you mean Egyptians and not Ethiopians?
Egyptians? No, I was referring to this verse:
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0412.htm#1
I'm still not sure that I follow. What exactly is the criteria for being black back then? Yes, Obama is biracial, but I would think that most people, without knowledge of his ancestry, would just see a black man. Is it just a matter of coloring?
I don't quite understand this. Who's making this argument? I've repeatedly warned about drawing absolutes from opinion polls. I don't know how much more nuanced I can be. Given that you quoted me, I'm assuming that there's something in that quote that gave you the idea that I was in the category you cite. I can't, for the life of me, figure out why.
I wasn't talking about you specifically, but I didn't think your post made clear that the traditional Jewish opposition to intermarriage is a fundamentally different phenomenon than conventional antiblack racism.
From the original quote:
Religion as a differentiating factor is very clearly, and explicitly mentioned. As is racism. The numbers, to the extent they tell us anything, basically bear this out. Opposition to marriage to Asians, Hispanics and blacks is 29, 30 and 38 percent. I'm pretty sure that all three of these groups would likely be subject to the same variable of religious discrimination. And yet the number for blacks is the highest.
I don't say this out of nefarious aims. (For my money, the real question is how Jews compare to other whites.)I point this out to demonstrate why I argue for religion and racism.
What I believe (and have experienced) is that a small percentage of Jews hold antiblack views, but it indeed is probably more common than anti-Asian or anti-Hispanic (though not anti-Arab). What I aim to make clear is that the religious opposition to Jewish/Gentile marriages is fundamentally a different phenomenon. I wasn't accusing you of equating the two, I was just addressing those who do.
Did anyone think to ask them what they think of marrying black Jews?
Clarifying question. Why categorize "Jews" as a "racial" group in the U.S. context? Of course, they were racialized, but how does historical contingency and circumstance play out in this narrative?
At present, part of the story of Jewish assimilation (and thus the acceptance--if not a clear desire and preference for Whites/WASPs as marriage partners) is earning one's whiteness and moving from being a racial group to an ethnicized White group. Could it be that "Jewish" identity has to be "activated" by circumstance, scenario, or contingency and thus it becomes salient at the moment? Likewise, it would be interesting to see how Jews of other races (and national/cultural backgrounds) experience religion as primary, secondary, or contingent?
There are some great takes on this. See the books: Roots Too; Whiteness of a Different Color; The Price of Whiteness: Jews, Race, and American Identity, and How Jews Became White Folks and What That Says About Race in America.
Some shameless self promotion: see the Chitlins and Gefilte Fish Project
cd
Our good host wrote:
Opposition to marriage to Asians, Hispanics and blacks is 29, 30 and 38 percent. I'm pretty sure that all three of these groups would likely be subject to the same variable of religious discrimination. And yet the number for blacks is the highest.
Given the relatively small number of Jewish respondents, this could be only a few people shifting their responses. In short, I suspect that if one were to run an appropriate statistical test, these percentages would be considered within sampling error of each other.
In fact, this could be done easily enough with access to the GSS....
I have repeatedly emphasized the limits of this kind of data. It's true that that last comment may fall into the margin of error. I really have no idea. That said my contention, from the beginning, has been very simple--that oppositions to interracial marriage is likely a mixture of two factors, racism and religion.
I have no real way of knowing which plays a larger factor, nor am I very interested. Jews are people. People are prejudice. I tend to believe that, all things being equal, prejudice is equally distributed across the spectrum.
So Jewish people are not racists against blacks but racists against everybody?
Shurufu
A European perspective. We've got Jews, blacks and other people of colour here too, but the social structures are different. So with many caveats that you cannot compare one historical situation with the other, here goes:
If Jews tended to marry 'out', historically, it was to drop the stigma of being jewish and to enter civilized gentile society. It was an decision based upon economics, and not open to most. It was an elitist thing.
From the early 20th century onward, Jews married other Jews, or they married Gentiles who were more like them socially than the average person. That is too say: a member of another minority. Jews married non-jewish refugees, or married displaced mixed-race people from the former colonies who were coming to Europe after independence, or muslims, or buddhists. Or, as the case may be, European Jews married American blacks.
I'm not talking about huge numbers, but this is certainly a trend. One outsider marrying another.
What does this mean for American Jews? Probably nothing at all, since our dynamic is so different here in Europe. But Jews all over the planet do not automatically go for the 'white' person.
One more thing about the survey. I'm sure the researchers did a wonderful job. But 'blackness' is a complicated cultural construct in present day Judaism. We have many kinds of 'blacks' amongst ourselves. The Jews of the Middle-East and North Africa are considered 'black' by some people, and some of their more strident cultural leaders call themselves blacks.
Also, the ultra-orthodox are called black, in Israeli and Yiddish slang, the 'sh'chorim', or the 'shwartzen'. In Jewish Dutch there exists a adjective, 'vershwartzt', which means as much as 'gone completely off the deep end'. This derives from the black garb of the ultra-orthodox, and is not connected to their skin colour.
I could just imagine that some of this spilled over into the survey, be it subconsciously.
TNC, I think this survey was poorly formulated, but of course you know that, too. Just so you know where I'm coming from on this, I'm a pretty traditional Jewish guy, I go to a modern Orthodox synagogue and sent my daughter to Hebrew Day School. The main factor you would find that is overlooked in this survey, besides the religion factor that others mentioned, is age. I remember once my mother commenting (probably 30 years ago, maybe more) that she really wouldn't be happy if one of her kids married a black person even if he was Jewish -- whereas my view on the matter is, I want my kid's spouse to be Jewish (as well as meeting the normal criteria of what parents, or at least most Jewish parents, want in a child-in-law: well-raised, good prospects, educated, etc.) but I couldn't care less what race he is. And I can only imagine what my grandmother's attitude would have been - she used to mutter imprecations in Yiddish about pretty much any group that wasn't Jewish, never mind black.
My great-aunt and her husband would concur. They married a few years after Abie's Irish Rose ran for over 2,000 performances and right about the time you could hear Burns & Allen on the radio at least once a week.
Of course, George & Gracie were followed by Stiller & Meara, Brooks & Bancroft, the entire premise of Billy Joel's song "Only The Good Die Young" and the sitcoms "Bridget Loves Bernie" and "Brooklyn Bridge."
So I gotta ask, who are these WASP marriage partners the Jews desire? Are there roving groups of boychicks on the prowl for -- hot Lutheran babes, I guess? -- and I am just unaware? :)
tried to comment earlier but I'm not seeing my comment so here goes again with a condensed version:
Ehav Ever, who describes himself as an Israeli of mixed ancestry (Sephardic Jewish-Spanish, African American, Senegalese, French) makes some very interesting points about "how people who are, or consider themselves, black or African American are viewed here in Israel and in the Middle East" on this video clip. Well worth watching.
Plus, on a complete but enjoyable tangent, here's one of my favorite music videos by the Idan Raichel Project starring Ethiopian Jewish singer Kabra Kasai. Bonus Indian vocals at the start.