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« Gatesgate | Main | Cops And Pension » Jon Stewart On Birthers23 Jul 2009 11:08 am
While I'm at it, I have not linked to Dave Weigel, which is a tragedy. One point that Dave makes, which I don't think people appreciate, is that the whole birther thing is the direct result of Obama trying to dispel rumors that his middle name was Muhammad. This notion that rational argument and evidence will convince people who believe that Obama has benefited from a massive conspiracy is faulty. They aren't actually interested in evidence. I'm sure, somewhere, there are people still looking for that whitey tape.
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Personally, my favorite part of that segment was watching him tear into Lou Dobbs. Dobbs' willful ignorance concerning these allegations being answered on his own show by a guest host left me flabbergasted. And Stewart's takedown of him was beautiful.
Still, this rumor refuses to die, and weirdly enough, I think that's turning into a net positive for the president. As you and a lot of others have pointed out, TNC, the more strident and paranoid even 'mainstream' Republicans become, the more people look to Barack Obama - and to a lesser extent, the Democratic Party - as at least being sane enough to govern even if they're doing it in a manner that many would disagree with. It's a cynical view, but then again, the Right, and the Republican Party, have no one to blame but themselves.
The fall of Lou Dobbs is really something incredible. Hard to believe he's the same guy who won a freaking Peabody in 1989 (1988?). His reputation will never recover from the Mexican bashing he's given it. And now this.
Every time I'm in a bar with his show on I receive further confirmation that Lou Dobbs is a fucking idiot.
Haha, Whitey tape. Man, I haven't been to No Quarter since before the election. That place became crazytown ridiculously fast.
I'm going to give Greater Wingnuttia credit on the birfer thing - a lot of prominent members have been treating it with the disdain it deserves. Malkin, Medved. John Gibson did a bit on it last night, making fun of his birfer callers. Of course, there are plenty of them taking the thing seriously (Limbaugh does, I think), but I think enough of them realize how clownish it makes them sound that they've been trying to tamp it down.
I especially love the fact that none of these "birthers" made anything of a stink about McCain - who was actually and unequivocably born outside the United States. No, not because the country hadn't been founded yet: he was born in the Panama Canal Zone. I think it's pretty clear why that fact was almost never noted.
I want to re-post ZacksBack comment from yesterday's birther thread, cos it was at the butt-end, and it's just perfect:
My reply was, someone get Orrin Hatch on the line to make a statement on the birther controversy. I think he may be the one person to be able to credibly and forcefully say "I think Barack is American, I think he was elected by a mandate of Americans, and I think that the insistence that he is not American is un-American, pointless, stupid, and a waste of energy." Or, he can choose to be a hypocrite.
"So, birthers, this is what I want to know: What changed? Why did the GOP and their right-wing supporters consider the native-born clause an antiquated remnant of 18th century global politics back in 2003, and in 2008 it becomes the rock on which the entire Republic stands?
Oh, right. We elected a black guy.
That and they gave up the idea of Arnold for President.
Also, I wish there was a word (and maybe there is) for the type of rhetorical statement that begs two responses: "I'm not X, and so what if I was?"
x can equal gay, Muslim, foreign, and I'm sure dozens more...
It puts the responder on a split defense that doesn't necessarily collapse, but it does compromise on forcefulness. Or something.
Yes, I stole it from Seinfeld. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Perhaps the birthers are still looking for Obama's "three-fifths" birth certificate.
He is half-white, so wouldn't it be four-fifths?
Demeaning people can be so confusing!
I'm still waiting for someone to call him an "octoroon".
Ummm, that would be mulatto.
Work on your maths, that should 3/5 * 1/2 = 3/10
technically it woudl be 8/10ths:-)
The black half is 3/5th and the white half is 5/5th, 3/5 + 5/5 = 8/10.
What I don't get is that Obama would have no reason to cover it up if he was born in Kenya. He'd be an US Citizen from birth by virtue of his mother's citizenship. Unless these people are questioning his parentage as well? Or is this just about him being the Antichrist?
"What I don't get is that Obama would have no reason to cover it up if he was born in Kenya. He'd be an US Citizen from birth by virtue of his mother's citizenship."
(from memory, so excuse slight errors) The constitutional provision concerning presidential eligibility requirements says "native born". The *statute* that grants citizenship to children of US citizens born abroad was enacted after BO was born, so he was not "native born", tho someone born after enacting the statute IS "native born". If the statute clearly applied, there would be arguments that you can't change teh constitution with a statute (but that one more step absurd than the current birther "argument").
There was a similar, earlier statute governing children of active-duty military personnel born on overseas bases which covered McCain (but don't doubt that there would have been a post hoc challenge by the same birthers in order to try to achieve President Sarah).
Did not know that. Thanks.
NPR's "Talk of the Nation" had an interesting segment on the whole "controversy" yesterday, bringing in a neuroscientist who explained why stories like this are able to gain hold.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/talk/2009/07/july_22nd_show.html
It was, by the way, the first time I heard the women ranting at the townhall meeting. What surprised me is how little she was ultimately concerned with the birth certificate and facts, but how this meme was able to provide her a flash point to express her view that somehow, someway, Obama isn't an "authentic" American like she is and her grandfather was. Which is the larger point, I think, for her and her cohorts, facts be damned.
I think you're right. Of course, we've all known for years that only white, non-coastal, conservative Christians are "authentic" Americans.
I just liked how she had a birth certificate issued by the United States of America. How do I get one of those? Mine was only issued by the county in which I was born. Must be why I'm not an authentic American either.
Ummm, that would be mulatto.
I'm not as infuriated as some by "birthers" because much of the extremist opposition to Obama is reminiscent to the left-wing vitriol during the Bush years. Obviously, race plays a heavy factor here. That said, there is always an angry, marginalized fringe to whoever is in power. There were lunatics then, there are lunatics now. Probably won't change.
Dude. Come on. The difference is that the GOP nuts are running the party. The difference is that GOP congressional leadership is obliged sponsor legislation that feeds into their hysteria. This was never even remotely truly of left wing nutjobs and the Dems.
Get a clue buddy.
This is a false equivalency. The birthers ARE the republican party, not some fringe group. The crazy liberals haven't called for violent overthrow of the United States government, shot up the White House (1994) or blown up a federal building.
Less than a dozen no-name Congressmen, Lou Dobbs and Lynn Cheney to me don't signify the Republican Party. The party is a disaster but let's not conflate a marginalized sect. Obama has done a remarkable job of isolating the party as such (and they've certainly done their part as well), but any serious Republican is not a part of this.
I'm much more worried about health care reform than I am about this. These stories come and go with every presidency.
Perhaps. I think that the 'dirty less-than-a-dozen' might still constitute a quorum, in the absence of any substantive Republican opposition to the idea. Can we name five Republicans of equal stature who have rejected the idea?
It is pleasing to say "it has always been thus" and forget it, but it is risky to let something like this fester. Ya gotta ridicule it when it's still young.
Maybe the birthers don't quite run the show, but they seem to have a larger toehold in mainstream GOP politics than truthers did (Cynthia McKinney notwithstanding).
It's not where we are, it's where we are going that is worrisome.
Remember - this sort of thing is potential political currency beyond merely comforting bruised political egoes. Remember Swift Boaters? This is like political Swine Flu. Chances are it's nothing; nevertheless, it needs to be addressed before it has a chance to spread.
There is a big difference.
Bush Derangement Syndrom (tm) was mostly based on his you know lying us into a war. People were actually upset about something that he did.
The right wing fringe started freaking out before the election (and how fringe is El Rusho for example?, I don't remember any democrats having to apologize on bended knee for criticisizing the fringe left)
The difference also involves the fact that Obama has only been president for six months, and (a) hasn't allowed a disastrous terrorist attack to occur on our soil, (b) hasn't invaded a foreign country under false pretenses, besmirching our national honor and getting a quarter of a million non-enemy people killed, (c) hasn't further stained our honor by torturing false confessions out of innocent people like some cowardly communist dictator. I guess I'm a stickler for details.
I'm sorry...... Is it piling on? Is it somehow unfair, or cruel, or ....just 'wrong'? I mean is making fun of a group so clearly, significantly BELOW AVERAGE intellectually, just inherently an act of lesser consciousness, showing a need for spiritual development in ME?
Are the “not a natural born citizen” uhh, … ‘people’ THAT disconnected from reality and if so is that more funny than it is unfortunate? People on the street, gesticulating wildly at invisible entities, are amusing at the initial observation, but immediately morph into pathos when you reflect upon the interior devastation that their behavior indicates. What do we do about the thousands, possibly MILLIONS, of actual citizens, whose mentation leads them to say “with everything that’s taking place in the world, I REALLY believe that there is some question regarding the legal birth status of the President…”?
Hmmm? .... Laugh, or see if we can find a responsible next of kin to take them home and make sure they don’t get out again?
Does the fact that a political party with pretensions to managing the conduct and fortunes of THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA seeks to somehow make use of this as an issue, indict them as a charade? Do they not see that embracing this nonsense shows them to be both unskilled AND unserious? How does CNN and Lou Dobbs reconcile the semi incoherent gibbering that passes for argument from the promoters of the nonsense with .... anything?
Does the fact that Sarah Palin so willingly flung herself on the alter for the Republikaaner overlords and their anti human agenda, and was so astonishingly inadequate, that her involvement as a hypothetical national figure stands as PROOF, of their total disdain for the American people, the governance of the nation, for that matter, the goddamn good of ALL HUMANITY?
But does that make it ok for me to laugh at her (them)? Can I justify it by knowing that she (and this issue) was a cynical ploy by truly evil men, and not only did it backfire, it blows up in their faces ANEW. Daily, if you can actually stand to watch it that closely.
Is this somehow less tragic because it refreshes the understanding (among those not quite as ignorant as others) as to how much the Republikaaners feel that they can manipulate things with what would have been an essentially PRETEND government, that would in no way be ACTUALLY running things? We stand around and watch an entirely cynical enterprise (rightist, conservative republicanism) dissolve into something beyond parody. Revealed to be nothing at all except the face of a scam for robber barons to retain power.
Having nothing better to do but muddy the waters, I recall reading an article about Henry Luce, the founding publisher of Time and Life. It seems that when Luce, who was born in 1898 or '99 to American missionary parents in China, heard that the circumstances of his birth rendered him ineligible for the Presidency, he was greatly distressed. On looking into this, he found that his birth had been properly registered with the American consulate, and that, to his great relief, the job was still open should he choose to pursue it.
I don't know if missionary' kids got some sort of special dispensation, but Luce, like McCain, was certainly born well before the President.
McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone, but he was born on a Naval Air Station, which is technically American soil. This is why it wasn't an issue for him--although I recall certain lefty wingnuts who tried to make it so very early in the campaign. Bless their hearts--they gave UP.
IIRC, it wasn't that children born overseas to American parent(s) weren't automatically citizens, but that the law read that the American parent(s) had to have resided at least 5 years in the U.S. after the age of 14 for the kids to be born citizens. Because President Obama's mother was 18 when she had him, she hadn't yet resided anywhere for 5 years after age 14. The law has since changed that the American parent(s) have to reside in the U.S. for at least five years at some point in their life.
However, even if Obama was born in Kenya, as the birthers allege, that wouldn't disqualify him from American citizenship. His mother would have had to be living in Kenya, not just visiting there, for that 5 year rule to apply, and since she was enrolled at the University of Hawaii both before and after Obama's birth, she obviously wasn't living in Kenya, even if she had for some crazy reason traveled to Kenya to give birth to him.
"even if she had for some crazy reason traveled to Kenya to give birth to him."
For God's sakes don't let Sully get ahold of that, we'll never hear the end of it. ;)
What I never understood about this whole nutjob conspiracy is -- wouldn't Obama (or any candidate) have to be an American citizen to serve in the Illinois State Senate, much less the U.S. Senate and White House?
I've never seen this addressed.
As TNC alluded to, conspiracy theorists are only interested in facts and reality insofar as they corroborate their insane rantings. Anything that doesn't is simply shrieked at until it goes away.
The Constitutional requirement for the Presidency is stricter than the requirement for Congress. One must be a 'natural-born' citizen, not just a citizen.
The Republicans are just pissed that they could not push their own amendment through in 2004 for the famous Arian.. eh... Austrian before Brüno.
Fox News on the story:
False, opportunistic and hypocritical. Not ignorant at all - just weak and false. It hurts a bit to watch this. I don't want to know that such things exist in reality but then again it explains to me why factory farms exist. And why most of us have no problem to daily support and order the worst tortures the history of planet has seen.
We are all modern day Republican slave owners. These funny stories explain the worst that history has seen, us, and explains why people like us are even worse than those confused GOPs. Sorry to say so but...
factory farms are awful and i don't eat their products, but i don't think they are tantamount to the enslavement of human beings.
The Republicans are just pissed that they could not push their own amendment through in 2004 for the famous Arian.. eh... Austrian before Brüno.
Fox News on the story:
False, opportunistic and hypocritical. Not ignorant at all - just weak and false. It hurts a bit to watch this. I don't want to know that such things exist in reality but then again it explains to me why factory farms exist. And why most of us have no problem to daily support and order the worst tortures the history of planet has seen.
We are all modern day Republican slave owners. These funny stories explain the worst that history has seen, us, and explains why people like us are even worse than those confused GOPs. Sorry to say so but...
The Atlantic's servers are confused today?
So, the town hall where the woman questions Obama's birth place and discusses her WWII father/grandfather drives me batty. It is absolutely reminiscent of the crowds when McCain was campaigning - wondering if Obama was really Muslim and the "kill him" refrains at the Palin rallies.
I see all of this as essentially the same thing: questioning the legitimacy of a Black President because the questioners are racist. They feel ultimately that Black people aren't American, do not share their values and therefore Obama isn't American and does not share their values.
He can't be Christian - because that would mean he and I believe in the same God. He can't be born in the U.S. - because that would mean maybe he really does care about the US and honestly became President (unlike GWB the first time).
I'm really tired of the birthers and their crazy paranoia being aired as legitimate news. They really are the equivalent of people who don't believe we landed on the moon. They need to be treated as such.
Agreed. This is want happens when CNN gets a hold of the internet.
agreed.
"I want my country back," she says. How has she had it taken from her? All I can think is that by being governed by a Darkie, she's lost it, and she doesn't even realize that's why she believes such a preposterous theory. It just doesn't make sense why his birth certificate would be faked and secretly inserted into the Hawaii Dept. of Health records. Okay I am gonna stop even thinking about this. sigh.
This is why Jon Stewart, as I read recently in the wake - literally - of the late Uncle Walter, that Stewart is the most trusted newsman in America.
Who wrote that crappy sentence...get your act together !
Jon Stewart is one of the funniest men in America. He's a talented entertainer. But it's pathetic that there's more journalism on his show than on news networks.
This is an issue for which burlesque is the only riposte. We live in a stranger than fiction time to begin with, and not even the Onion could make up the Birther phenomenon.
In a way, it is unseemly for Maddow or Olberman to scoff; it's enough that both already blur their integrity a bit as reporters; they are lefties and so can be dismissed for their bias. But more because of their position even scoffing gives such inanity purchase.
Stewart, who is also obviously for the most part liberal, is not, however, bound to politicians, news casters, or media of any stripe: he is bound only to being funny, to lampooning--that's how he makes a living.
He is the kid who not only tells everyone that the Emperor is in his birthday suit, but throws cold water on the poor man to make him shrivel up a bit. The right got used to no one mentioning these things when they put their contract down on America, and still they believe they can prance around without everyone rubbernecking and guffawing when the boy repeats his message.
The media he pokes fun at are particularly susceptible because their schtick has been to make fools of themselves as hucksters, snake oilers, and rainmen, all the while taking their carnaval act as something more akin to what our society percieves as journalism than what it is--hallelujah bulls**t.